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July 25, 2007
Is It a Buyer's or Seller's Market in Townhouses?
Here's an email we received from a reader this week:
I was hoping you could foment some sort of discussion on the summer brooklyn townhouse market. I can't really figure out what's going on. It seems like a lot of stuff is left over from the spring, but then some great stuff just flies off the shelf. I've been to dozens of open houses the past few weeks, some are empty, some are thronged. I can't tell if it's a buyer's market or a seller's market. It seems like a lot of people are waiting for the fall to see what comes on the market. What's your sense?
Seems to us like there's not a lot of good inventory and that buyers aren't desperate enough to go for the crap. Your thoughts?
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Comments
Condo: buyer's market.
Brownstones: seller's market.
Supply and demand.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 9:38 AM
I put the over-under at 150 posts on this one.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 9:50 AM
I'll take the over for $100.
Wonder what impact AY development has had on the market.
;-)
Posted by: John at July 25, 2007 9:54 AM
Actually, it seems that there is also something of a summer downturn on posts too. Sure, Hotel Le Bleu went well over 100 posts but almost all of it was tangential issues. The plans for the Domino site, a controversial topic in the past, struggled to get ten comments. I'll take John's action; $100 on under.
Posted by: Rob at July 25, 2007 10:03 AM
I think that posts about how many posts there are should not be counted towards total post count...D'OH.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 10:06 AM
9:38 definitely got it right.
Condos have flooded the market, and there are many more on the way.
As for townhouses, there really isn't much solid inventory on the market right now, so anything decent is being bought rather quickly at premium prices. Queens has started to slow, which is the first sign that Brooklyn might eventually be hit by a correction (however, this appeared likely before and nothing happened). From a prospective buyers point, for whatever it is worth, my wife and I are in the market for a brownstone. Both of us grew up in Brooklyn and love it, even with many of the recent changes that have taken away much of Brooklyn's original identity. we both also make very good salaries, and have reached a point where we no longer believe it is worth it to buy a townhouse in Brooklyn, because of the high prices. Both true city kids, we are now considering moving outside of NYC, because the quality of life will be much better. Essentially, we have come to the conclusion that it is better to buy a very nice house with larger property in New Jersey or Westchester for $700K-$900K, then buy a townhouse in Brooklyn for $1.5M-$2.0M. While some people argue that the townhouse is a better investment, is it really? For the next ten years, my wife and I, and any children that we might have in the near future would be restricted on our lif style. Eventually, through inflation and rising salaries, the twonhouse would become rather affordable and allow a better life, but that would probably take ten years. to buy something in New Jersey or Westchester, we could live a great life now without worry of finances. We could continue to take great vacations, and no longer be a slave to our job with greater financial flexibility. In addition, as inflation and salaries increase, the house in Westchester and New Jersey would become extremely affordable, allowing us to purchase a beach house or even retire earlier.
That said leaving the City is no easy task. the convenience, the diversity, the chance for our kids to grow up with such diversity, all pull on my wife and I; however, every Saturday and Sunday that I walk around Brooklyn, I realize much of the diversity, respect for others, and street sense that brooklyn was known for is gone. It is replaced by individuals who has a sense of entitlement over other the surrounding people, who let their kids run wild without an attempt to instill some discipline in their kids, who believe that their neighbors should cater to their spoiled children, and who openly cheer Brooklyn, but complain about the way people act (despite the fact that Brooklyn had been that way for 50 years priro to their arrival and was that way when they moved here). Do I really want my kids to grow up in this? Is the convenience of the city really worth it, aftre all once my wife and I have kids, am I really going to be out on Friday nights and/or Saturday nights, even once every three months?
While I don't have the answers, the questions have convinced me Brooklyn is changing for better or worse, and I am not sure the changes are worth the price.
Posted by: Prospective buyer at July 25, 2007 10:07 AM
Damn those Park Slope stroller moms!
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 10:09 AM
(John is now offering Prospective buyer $10 to break up next post into multiple posts)
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 10:11 AM
my feeling is that crap is being priced as if it were quality, and quality is being priced as if brownstone was solid gold. Some places have sat for months, I've watched them, and have come head-to-head with sellers who wouldn't budge off of their asking price (even though the price has already quadrupled in the previous decade!) This is all fine, it's how a free market works, I just find the market to be kind of schizoid at the moment.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 10:17 AM
Now that I'm chiming in, the under has no chance.
10:11, good one!!!
Prospective buyer, poignant post and your situation is similar to what so many people, particularly those of us with young children, face. I recently decided to leave Manhattan, but stay close, opting for brownstone living in BH, rather than moving to the suburbs. We thought it was best for everyone, but who really knows? No question it's a huge decision; likely the biggest of your life and your children's. I wish you the best of luck.
Posted by: Biff Champion at July 25, 2007 10:20 AM
Prospective Buyer,
Whether Brooklyn in 2007 is the kindd of place where you want to live is your business, of course. But the funny thing is, when I bought out a house (in 2002), I priced out the alternatives too. I concluded that--once I factored in taxes and buying two cars--nowhere in New Jersey (that I'd want to live) would be cheaper than buying in Brooklyn. Unless I moved so far out that I'd end up being a "slave" to the commute and the train schedule and have less time at home.
I guess it might be different now, but my impression that the burbs have shot up in price just like the city in the five years since.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 10:20 AM
It's amazing how Prospective buyer KNOWS the quality of life will be better in a burbs than in Brooklyn.
The post reads like an ad for Westchester home builders.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 10:22 AM
Good point 10:20 #2. Unless you are working from home (or close by) in the 'burbs, there's a lot to be said for a short commute and more time with the family. That for us, plus the unique experience of being in Brooklyn, versus a cookie-cutter suburb, was what we decided we wanted.
Posted by: Biff Champion at July 25, 2007 10:25 AM
If open houses are 50-50 now, maybe a few people are at last connecting the dots.
A critical mass of opinion on what it means when median house prices are wildly beyond the median income -- and a brewing Wall St. shakeup this fall -- should change things a tad.
Posted by: cgwatcher at July 25, 2007 10:30 AM
i like some of the contradictions abt bklyn: buy in brooklyn because it is hot, yet brooklyn is no longer brooklyn because some of its originality has been stripped away. I've been in carroll gardens the last ten years, and while it has change like every other place in nyc, the place is still diverse and "original" (whatever that means). i cant imagine how nj can offer any of the benefits of living in nyc or bklyn.
Posted by: hola at July 25, 2007 10:33 AM
So yesterday was some of the most apocalyptic national housing market news I've ever seen. You actually have the head of the largest mortgage broker in America saying "this is the worst since the Depression". How insulated/immune can new york really be from the national market?
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 10:33 AM
I just want to chime in and say that I'm thrilled this post made it to 13 comments without someone slandering or attacking anyone else personally. That has to be some kind of record.
as a recent condo buyer, I've been hearing that condos will slow a little bit when many of the high-rise buildings in downtown/Ft. Greene/4th Ave. start to fill up. Townhomes are always going to be at a premium, I think, and it certainly seems like people are overreaching on price a bit (note the number of price drops on the cruddy ones while the nice ones sell at or above ask).
I'm very familiar with the subprime issue right now through my job, and it will be very interesting to see if the incredibly slowdown across the country ever arrives in Brooklyn. There are several stories out today that even prime borrowers are falling behind on payments, and I wonder whether that applies to NYC or not.
Posted by: JP at July 25, 2007 10:35 AM
Prospective buyer: make very sure you educate yourself about property taxes outside NY before making an offer. In many areas, your assessment, and your taxes, will jump astronomically post-purchase in what's known as "sales chasing." My taxes on a brownstone in Bklyn are $2600/yr. In upstate NY, say in Hudson, an $800,000 assessment translates into about $25,000/yr in taxes. And if the property is assessed at $400,000 and you buy it for $800,000, you can bet that next year your assessment will double based on the purchase price, while the assessments of your neighbors' similar houses may not rise in tandem with your own, thus inflicting you with a disproportionate tax burden. Caveat emptor!
Posted by: Fior at July 25, 2007 10:35 AM
Prospective buyer, check out the article in the New Yorker a few months back re: commuting and its effect on quality of life. (It's still on their website last time I checked.) Basic thrust of the article was that most people assume they'll be happier with a nicer house and a longer commute, when the reverse is actually true. I relate to your situation, but if either you or your spouse has a typical, Manhattan-bound job, choosing the burbs means giving up precious hours at the beginning and end of the day that you will want to spend with your kids. Just another angle to consider.
My spouse and I are in the arts (what the RE theorists now refer to as the "Bohemian-Gay Index") so we don't have your earning power, but we are quite happy having bought in Bed-Stuy. If Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope, etc. are too rich for your blood, you might consider Midwood, Ditmas, etc. Nice houses out there with yards, and you can still catch the subway.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 10:37 AM
I'm considering building a carriage house on the back portion of my corner property. Legally it would be a condo but it would feel like a house. I think I'll only be able to build about 1,400 s.f. The location would be within one block of the 7th Ave. Q train. How much do you think the carriage house would sell in today's market?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 10:40 AM
I worked in NJ for the past 15 years, and I can tell you NJ is a sea of mediocrity. There is nothing unique. All the developments looked the same no matter whether the houses are $200k or 2.5 million. The expensive house is just the $200k house in a better location and bigger. People who lives there goes from one shopping mall to another. There is NO diversity.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 10:42 AM
I just bought a brownstone in Carroll Gardens for 1.15. I am sad to say that although we are financially max-ed out and probably going into forclosure some time soon - it seemed like a real bargain to us and we snapped it up the second we saw it. point being, if things are decent quality and priced reasonably, they fly (but of course, in a seller's market things not of decent quality and not priced reasonably also fly!)
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 10:44 AM
Does everyone know that there are places to move other than NJ? Like east or north, instead of west. Someone describing burbs as "cookie cutter" etc screams of someone who has never been to any of these locations, especially up the Hudson Valley...
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 10:46 AM
I'm considering building a carriage house on the back portion of my corner property. Legally it would be a condo but it would feel like a house. I think I'll only be able to build about 1,400 s.f. The location would be within one block of the 7th Ave. Q train. How much do you think the carriage house would sell in today's market?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 10:49 AM
10:37, that was an interesting piece on commuting.
I, too, like Prosp Buyer have considered leaving town for more space, but giving up the time and the sense of connection you get just walking around the neighborhood or taking the train just isn't worth it to me.
You've also got to remember that once you've given up the fight and moved to the burbs that just having a drink after work turns into a hair-raising odyssey, unless you live a short walk from the train station.
Posted by: cgwatcher at July 25, 2007 10:53 AM
10:46:
I agree with you re: "cookie cutter," except that you're talking *way* up the Hudson Valley (say to a cool town like Beacon) or you're paying so much money that there's no bottom-line difference from a brownstone neighborhood in Brooklyn.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 10:53 AM
Why isn't prospective buyer looking in Queens? I know I would be if I were looking for a house. Not pretty & charming & thoroughly affluent like prime Brooklyn nabes, but Queens has its own charm, not to mention the most diverse cuisine in the world. You can get a really great property in Queens for what prospective buyer is planning on paying in Westchester.
Posted by: SPer at July 25, 2007 10:54 AM
10:53.. believe it or not, it's possible to form a "sense of connection" in other places too, i mean, people do live in places other than nyc.. sometimes people stay in nyc because they love it, other times they can't leave out of fear..
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 10:55 AM
It pains me to see that so few people look outside PS, CG, FG, CH, or BH when looking for a house.
If you still want "original, diverse" Brooklyn - look at Sunset Park! Great housing stock, good transportation, ethnic cuisine galore - and lots of houses for under $1MM.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 10:57 AM
Prospective Buyer, you probably won't get much sympathy here on this Bklyn centric site. I too, am a native and I choose to leave Brooklyn a few years ago, not because I was priced out, but because as you say, it's not the same Brooklyn it once was. Although I'm happy upstate (I don't have to commute), it took me about 2 years to feel comfortable here. It also helps that I bought a brownstone investment so that I can keep my connection with Brooklyn, because I do miss it. But then I go down there for the weekend and all I want to do is come back up here! Anyway, not all suburbs are bland. Many, many artists and "bohemian gays" (thanks, 10:37!) are leaving the city and planting roots in gentrifying towns nearby. I have a richer social and cultural life up here than I did in Brooklyn. The quality of life IS better and no, I don't have to drive everywhere because I live in town. Hate to sound like an advertisement for suburban living, but I'm just filling ya'll in on my story.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 11:00 AM
10:57 here again. A quick search through NYT:
http://realestate.nytimes.com/sales/detail/2428-3310
http://www.ipgmac.com/index.cfm?page=details&id=3310
It's not an architectural treasure, but people are looking for houses, not museums.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 11:01 AM
10:44am I am sorry to hear that you are going into foreclosure. But what happened? Did you get an ARM that is now readjusting or did you have some financial set back? I think it is interesting to add a human prespective to the forelosure numbers we see everyday.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 11:08 AM
10:44, so are you prime, alt-a, or just messing with us?
Makes me think of a few other questions for those bullish on this house market.
Forget subprime, I say. Everybody now realizes that's a quagmire. But Alt-A is another 20% of the market and is a synonym for qualified-but-can't-afford-it. They're going down, too, but how many realize it? How many of those no-doc loans were magically turned into AAA paper? When more funds fail and more CDOs are downgraded drastically, where does the next flood of easy money come from?
Posted by: cgwatcher at July 25, 2007 11:09 AM
10:57 some people consider that too far out. If I was going to look in Sunset Park I'd also consider closer parts of Queens.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 11:19 AM
diversity that Brooklyn offers can be found in the rapidly gentrifying neighborhoods of downtown Jersey City, all within walking distance from the PATH (which offers a quick and predictable commute to Manhattan). See Hamilton Park, Harsimus Cove, Paulus Hook, Van Vorst Park. Many of the brownstones in these historic neighborhoods are subject to particularly low property taxes in comparison to the burbs of greater New Jersey (i.e., usually under 5k/yr).
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 11:20 AM
i've noticed that townhouses, or co-ops within bronwstones are doing superbly well.
anything decent in park slope is sold within a few weeks. my gf bought her studio in park slope for 250K in october and sold it last month (in 2 days for 345K.
not bad.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 11:21 AM
My comment at 11:20 should have begun with "Much of the character, historic charm and"
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 11:23 AM
Market is in a slow-motion transition from seller (increasing in number) to buyer (qualified pool decreasing). Well located move-in brownstones are high-end so they'll be the last to be affected. Their day will come though (any year now). Don't be fooled.
"The next time you ask, 'Where's the brownstone market going?', ask yourself, 'Where's the stock market/economy going?'. - Mos Def (Black on Both Sides, 1999)
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 11:29 AM
can someone please explain to me what your idea of diverse is, because i don't understand why people say brownstoner brooklyn isn't diverse. i believe it is. very much so, in fact.
to me, diverse means something that resembles (or closely resembles) our population as a whole. that is roughly 70% white, 10% black, 15% hispanic, 5% asian, some gays, etc.
bed stuy is NOT diverse. scarsdale is NOT diverse. jersey city is NOT diverse.
you all seem to think diverse means finding a neighborhood that has as many non-hite faces as possible,and i just don't agree that that's what diverse means.
this isn't a race thing, i just don't get it.
Posted by: jm at July 25, 2007 11:34 AM
Actually that is dead wrong.
The qualified pool of brownstone buyers has increased not decreased.
Subprime buyers are not buying 3 million dollar brownstones.
Wall Street bonuses are setting records, and will be up again next year.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 11:36 AM
Anybody else out there "underwater" and care to share (thanks 10:44 - takes guts)? Very informative.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 11:36 AM
Oh, yawn. Why not do the rent vs buy argument for another 50 posts. Then we could talk about PLG and invite the troll in and then the jokesters on Forum and we could have a 200+. Then we could have an uninformed discussion about sub-prime mortgages, another 50+
ZZZZZZZZZ.........
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 11:38 AM
Oh, and we could also have a sharing of fake "I'm underwater posts" and then we could invite Lisa in with raised fist to comment on the outrages of capitalism in Greenwood Heights.... Another 120 posts.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 11:41 AM
Alive right, 11:36. It's harder to get a mortgage now. Your third statement supports my point. Wall St bonuses are based on the global credit bubble which is slated to go "pop". Next year might be good but it's gonna get worse and worse.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 11:45 AM
I remember being astounded in both 70's and the early 90's when the market tanked, that even though RE prices did drop on what was the current hot spots (for me that was tribeca), prices really did not go down that much after having soared thru the roof. Then once the economy rebounded 5 years later, prices had only settled 5% and started going up again! I had wanted to buy something in tribeca and thought the tank would happen, so I waited, but prices never really went down the way they did in the rest of the country, so I never got in. so this time around, I went ahead and bought a brownstone (a very good one in a nice spot) in brooklyn and my guess is that prices will go down a little, but then in 5 years, they will start to climb again. the desirable areas seem to hold their value in NYC. so if you are thinking prices in Bstone brooklyn are going to plummet and you're waiting, I think you might be making the same mistake I made years ago. they will not go back down to 2000 prices unfortunately.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 11:47 AM
I think this is a useful discussion. The ratio of "bubble bursting, NYC is not immune" to "Brooklyn is special and will always appreciate" has really shifted over the last week or so.
I wonder how much impact the quote from the head of Countrywide Financial (rate of housing depreciation unmatched by any time since the Depression,or something to that effect) will have on NYC market psychology.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 11:48 AM
I agree with Prospective Buyer that Brooklyn is changing, and not necessarily for the better. My husband and I loved Park Slope when we first moved there in 1999 (bought a 1-BR in a brownstone for $120K--imagine that!), but the neighborhood turned into the Upper West Side--rich and privileged--very soon afterward. He's Brooklyn born and bred, so when we started looking around Brooklyn for houses, it was really sad to realize that there was no way we could afford a house in PS, PH, or even Windsor Terrace. So we ended up moving to Philadelphia. While we both miss Brooklyn terribly, we now have a 4-story historic house near Independence Hall that's been completely gut-renovated, with central AC and new kitchen--for about the same as a 2- or 3-BR co-op in PS. We've found some great restaurants and found that the people in our neighborhood are much friendlier and more open-minded than those in PS. It's a trade-off--not as many cool, hip places, but in exchange we have 2,000 sq. ft. of house, no co-op headaches and expenses, and parking for a lot less than PS. There IS life after Brooklyn, Prospective Buyer--not the same, but better in a lot of ways.
Posted by: phillyfilly at July 25, 2007 11:55 AM
funny this is, i don't really think that many people were really saying nyc is completely immune to all of this, 11:48.
it was the people who like to pretend like they know everything on this board by telling people..."what...are you stupid...you think nyc is immune" that really kept those conversations going.
i'd say there are but a handful of people who ACTUALLY think that nyc is immune. nyc, for all it's issues has relatively intelligent people for the most part.
and btw, i agree almost totally with 11:47. while the bottom might fall out on nyc real estate as they say, the price drops will be barely noticeable. that's the way these things work. even in the WORST hit market...probably san diego, florida and las vegas (which comparing them to nyc is almost stupid of me anyway) the prices have dropped on average of 15% and have started to rebound again slightly.
if we saw an average of 5% drop here in nyc, that would be a lot. and then, as the cycle continues, the prices will go back up again as they always do.
i welcome the end to this cycle. means the next wave up is that much closer...
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 11:55 AM
I see little for sale in Carroll Gard/Cobble Hill/Boerum Hill.
Ones that come up for sale and in very good condition seem to go quickly at prices that seem unreasonable.
Some listings have been on for awhile - needing much work, fringe spot but asking top price, or Rent Control tenant. (there is one for sale on Baltic now with a rent control in lower duplex and 2 free markets apts above. 1st time I've seem controlled duplex).
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 11:57 AM
11:47,
Did you adjust for inflation? Did your income stay the same when the market rebounded? I heard there was like a 25-40% correction the last time around after inflation. Also, this is the biggest national housing bubble in U.S./Brooklyn history.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 11:58 AM
My fiance and I are in the market for a brownstone in Ft Greene and we are finding that the stock is tiny to non-existent, and that everything decent is snapped up. Am hoping that more properties come on the market in fall. So for now, my take (for brownstones at least) is sellers market.
Posted by: rosie at July 25, 2007 11:59 AM
i thought about philly a couple years ago also and spent quite a bit of time there. looked all around center city and found some great deals on some nice looking places.
one problem. it's philadelphia.
with the housing boom now over there, the sense of prosperity (which for philadelphia to feel that is quite a feat) and it is now in decline again.
crime is horrendous and getting worse over the past two years (even in the prime areas) and businesses that flourished 2 years ago are closing up shop.
south street 3 years ago was so much fun, and now all the hip stores are gone.
philadelphia is way too prone to even the slightest ups and downs in the economy for my taste.
but i do still love it. parts are incredibly charming.
Posted by: anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:01 PM
11:55 --
"probably san diego, florida and las vegas (which comparing them to nyc is almost stupid of me anyway) the prices have dropped on average of 15% and have started to rebound again slightly."
That does not correspond to what Countrywide Financial said yesterday. They don't see the market turning around until at least 2009. And I don't know if they said how much they believe it has dropped already, but "the worst since the Depression" sounds like more than 15%. They said the Case-Shiller index was a good reflection of the market, if anyone wants to check.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 12:01 PM
correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't real estate decline more like 30 or even 40% in nyc in 1987? not 5%..
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:03 PM
It's a seller's market for brownstones in the most desireable areas covered by this web site.
All the doomsayers are out of touch with reality and have not been in the market.
Anyone in the market like the ft green buyer above will tell you it is not only a seller's market but a strong seller's market.
Mozillo was not talking about 3million dollar brownstones people
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:05 PM
Not IN 1987. FROM 1987. That was the peak.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:07 PM
10:44 here - ok, I was embellishing a little bit. We are not going into forclosure (just closed last month!) but as husband is freelance and hasn't worked in a couple of months and he's the one who brings in the bacon things are feeling dicey. We took out $160,000 as an ARM so things are not looking pretty with these rising rates. Luckily, I think the $25,000 reno we've almost completed will add about $200k to the value, so if things go down the pot it will not be an utter disaster if we have to sell.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 12:09 PM
after peaking in '87, there was quite a decline I'd say. Could happen again, no? I wouldn't put money on it, but always worth considering that it IS within the realm of possibility...
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:10 PM
the great depression comment was not about price declines. it was about foreclosures so you can't stop taking that out of context. some of us do read the papers also, you realize.
and in terms of nyc housing, all you need to do is listen to all those who say that there is little out there to buy.
the market is based on supply and demand. our supply is quite limited. you are hearing it from poster after poster.
do you think suddenly everyone, upon hearing news of a possibly shakey real estate market in nyc are going to put their homes up for sale this fall?
don't think so.
we've had time here to see what happened across the rest of the country and as long as everyone stays calm, waits it out and don't move unless they really have to, life will go on without too much worry.
the word apocalypctic being used in an earlier post sums up how completely absurd some people can be about all this stuff.
overracting is the WORST thing everyone could do at this point in time.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 12:11 PM
sorry 10:44/12:09: I'm not buying it. Please don't troll...
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:14 PM
anyone who would joke about going into foreclosure when it's all over the news about people suffering from it, is a total sicko.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 12:15 PM
Absolutely it could happen again, 12:10. We didn't have a negative national savings rate then. Home price appreciation wasn't driving the economy then. I'm putting money on it - opportunity cost of not buying if the market goes up.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:16 PM
OK - anyone looking for a brownstone in a PRIME area that thinks it is BUYER's market????
(I didn't think so).
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:16 PM
A buyer's market is when people can buy in neighborhoods where people with their occupational/educational backgrounds have typically lived for LESS THAN the traditional three times income.
The rest of the country is in a transition, with buyers no longer willing or able to overpay and sellers not yet willing to sell at market. NYC is approaching that transition.
But any seller willing to cut their price can still sell to a greater fool for more than the unit will be worth three years from now. And buyers who absolutely want to buy have to accept that deal. That's a seller's market.
Posted by: WT Economist at July 25, 2007 12:17 PM
that is one STUPID mortgage company for lending 1.15 million minus downpayment to a single income freelancer.
REALLY stupid.
Posted by: anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:17 PM
Yeh, 11:47 AM is dead right. I bought a tiny West Village coop in 1987 and 18 mos later started enjoying several years of negative equity. Sales in our bldg ground to almost a halt but actual prices only came down about 10-15%. Then by '95-96 the worst was over and prices starting heading up again. I sold in '99 for twice what I paid in the eighties and bought a PH brownstone for under half a mil.
I also keep looking at property prices in London (my hometown). The rate of increase there is far beyond anything we've seen here and yet it shows few signs of cooling. NYC is certainly not immune but so long as the city's economy stays strong and people with six figure salaries continue to want to live in brownstones, prices should remain reasonably robust. At the end of the day, there are fewer good (meaning condition + location) brownstones on the market than qualified buyers.
Posted by: Anon at July 25, 2007 12:18 PM
We just closed on a great house off PPW. It was close to 3.2mm. We got a great and very creative mortgage from a guy we met at the dog run! (Don't you love NYC?!) Problem is, my husband and I make about 95k a year when we're both working and right now, I'm at home with my 1yo (we NEED to pay Stay at Home Moms like they do in Europe!!!).
I can't help thinking it's a great investment, but yes, if things don't change financially soon for us our payments are going to be hard to make and REALLY hard to make when rate increases in December.
But we can sell if things get too bad. Fingers crossed!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:18 PM
Re 12:11--
The Countrywide comment was about PRICE DECLINES not foreclosures. From today's NYT:
"Countrywide’s chairman and chief executive, Angelo R. Mozilo, said home prices were falling “almost like never before, with the exception of the Great Depression.” Nationally, home prices have not fallen in the 35 years or so that the government and private services have tracked them. Some researchers like Robert J. Shiller of Yale have compiled data that goes as far back as 1890 and shows that home prices fell for several years during the 1930s."
If the Times got it wrong, mea culpa for believing them.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 12:18 PM
another thought on suburbs and philadelphia.
i want to live in a place where i don't find myself wanting to spend my days reading and posting on a blog about a place that i left because i kept telling myself i didn't want to live there anymore but obviously do.
if i moved to philly or nj and spent my days on brownstoner, i'd feel unsatisfied.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:22 PM
My view is that what happen to NYC and Brooklyn will largely depend on where Wall Street is heading.
How much will Wall Street be affected by suprime mortgages issues?
How much will Wall Street be affected by other mortgages issues and lower real estate prices in the rest of the country?
Will the LBO boom stop and what is the effect on Wall Street?
What will happen to the dollar in general? What is the effect to Wall Street?
And so on, and so on...
My guess is that nowadays at least 25% of new buyers are more or less depending on Wall Street. Other guesses welcome.
If I look at a around 1mill house in Terrytown to Croton-On-Hudson area and what I can get in Brooklyn for it, I have to say (even after factoring RE taxes - don't forget City Tax in NYC) Westchester looks promising... (Not saying I am ready for it - yet)
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:23 PM
12:14 - I fail to see why my story leaves you so incredulous. believe me, if I was inclined to tell a tale, it would be about something far more interesting than my arm mortgage. And 12:15, I wasn't joking - it was simply an unthinking way of trying the convey the general sense that we are feeling the pinch. Sorry for my insensitivity.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 12:26 PM
12:18 PM, ha bloody ha. There's no way you can be paying the note on a $3.2m manse with an income of under $95k.
Posted by: Anon at July 25, 2007 12:28 PM
out of work and buying a million dollar home. smart. very very smart
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:28 PM
not that stupid 12:17. my husband made 400k last year.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 12:33 PM
you know...whether some of these stories are true or not doesn't really matter because they are true for some people.
the point is...americans...and new yorkers especially are so interested in aquiring the something bigger, something better, something more shiny, that it would not suprise me at all to find quite a few out of work freelancers with a million dollar mortgage.
this needs to be recitified. sad it's having to happen through foreclosures, but perhaps if it permiates through our society enough, people will begin to realize what is really important in life.
cause believe it not, it ain't home price appreciation as much as we all love it.
it would be great to get back to the days of talking about brownstones because we love them and not only talk about them as vehicles for money laundering.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 12:36 PM
well if your husband is currently out of work and you REALLY are about to go into foreclosure, it's a little funny to me that you've now spent the morning on brownstoner posting about it.
perhaps you need to head down to american apparel and see if they are hiring.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 12:39 PM
doesn't matter how much he made last year. the question is how much he saved.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:43 PM
12:36 home ownership has always been a very american aspiration. Is it our fault that real estate in nyc has become like the tulip craze long ago? Believe me, we would have been happy to rent an affordable apt rather than buy a house, but with two children and after four years with them in a 1 bedroom, we had to find something bigger. In our neighb right now a decent two bedroom now is $3500/month in rent and we could not fathom throwing away that much every month. A million dollars (more or less) is pretty much what you have to spend to be in our neighb and actually, neighborhood has more to do with quality of life and happiness than the size of home. I would much rather something small in my neighb than something huge somewhere else. The point being: we are not graspong for big shiny things,we are simple trying to remain in the place where my children have made dear friends are are greeted by people who know them when they walk down the street.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 12:46 PM
no, the question is how much he'll be making this year and for the next few.
sounds like nada.
oops.
Posted by: anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:46 PM
the house market in the NJ burbs is very soft.
Houses, nice ones, not cookie-cutter or whatever, are not selling.
It is a good time to buy out there as long as you're willing to stay a few years. The NYC market is insane, pretty soon only foreigners with hard curencies (unlike the dollar) will be able to afford property here. The last time that happened, the 1980's when the Japanese seemed to own everything, the market went bust almost overnight. Remember when Rockefeller Center was bought back from Japanes investors by the Rockefellers for pennies on the dollar?
I do not think it is a good time to buy in the city or in Brooklyn. Things seemed rather inflated, expecially in neighborhoods without good public schools and where there is still street crime.
Posted by: Sam at July 25, 2007 12:49 PM
Why is anyone shocked? There are tons of freelancers in NYC. Probably more than any other city in the U.S. Lots of them buy real estate too.
The market got really slow, then really panicky because it was slow, last Summer too. Ask any realtor. It happens every Summer. Difference is, because of all the worry over the overall national economy and mortages, we feel like there's more to it when things slow in Summer.
Remember, most people who can afford to buy brownstones are not even in town in August. They're gone. So realtors for sellers are telling their clients don't even list their houses in July or August. Everybody just wait to see what comes on the market after Labor Day. It's not such a long wait, now.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:51 PM
Actually I'm at work. Probably will be fired due to my sad addiction to this ridiculous site. And on that note, am signing off.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 12:54 PM
12:49, the Japanese buying up entire blocks or huge office buildings in Manhattan is not quite the same as a few Brits and Germans buying condos in Manhattan or brownstones in Brooklyn. They're living in these properties, or staying in them when the come to town for business.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 12:56 PM
first you're foreclosing. then you're not.
first your husband is the one who "brings in the bacon." then you're at work.
all suspicious.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 12:57 PM
first you're foreclosing. then you're not.
then your husband is the one who "brings in the bacon" then you're at work.
all suspicious.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 12:58 PM
Not everyone on Wall St work in a mortgage related business. Even if the bottom falls out of housing, there are plenty of other areas that i-banks make huge money.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 1:01 PM
i think it's an urban legend that the wall streeters are keeping the nyc housing market alive these days.
i don't see it.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 1:02 PM
12:58 first i'm signing off, then i'm back on. even more suspicious.
And clearly you are unfamiliar with the work-for-sanity-hand-over-paycheck-to-nanny phenomenon of early motherhood.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 1:03 PM
so your husband is out of work and you still have a nanny!!!!!???
god, if i weren't gay, i'd LOVE to be your husband.
what a life!!!
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 1:06 PM
I have a nanny because I work asshole.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 1:11 PM
You know, there was a time when we could be sure the above post (repeated below) was a joke. I expect that time to return. As it is, we can't be sure. A year ago, this was standard operating procedure.
___________________________________
We just closed on a great house off PPW. It was close to 3.2mm. We got a great and very creative mortgage from a guy we met at the dog run! (Don't you love NYC?!) Problem is, my husband and I make about 95k a year when we're both working and right now, I'm at home with my 1yo (we NEED to pay Stay at Home Moms like they do in Europe!!!).
I can't help thinking it's a great investment, but yes, if things don't change financially soon for us our payments are going to be hard to make and REALLY hard to make when rate increases in December.
But we can sell if things get too bad. Fingers crossed!!!
Posted by: WT Economist at July 25, 2007 1:13 PM
and what about your supposed out of work husband?
he's not fit to take care of the kid??
(insert your next lie here...)
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 1:17 PM
Is 400 supposed to be a lot of money.
That's a jr vp at a bank, a couple of years out of grad school
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 1:28 PM
What the hell? What about anything I have said makes you think I am lying? I'm sure it does not occur to you in your blinkered existence that, like other people with jobs, nannys need a guaranteed weekly paycheck. They can't be sent off at their boss's convenience when cost cutting is in order.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 1:28 PM
1:28 - what is your point? We all know bankers make a lot of money - some people have ambitions beyond the paycheck. And some people actually get that jr vp paycheck for doing something creative that they absolutely love, rather than toiling away 80 hours a week with a bunch of preppy dorks.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 1:33 PM
ok. i just wanted to get it straight, 1:28.
your husband sits at home not working.
and you pay a nanny.
and you are about to foreclose on your 1.1 million house.
just wanted to get the facts right.
thank you.
and btw, next time you don't want a sour reaction, you might think twice about trivializing foreclosure by lying about it.
and i wonder why my non-american friends think the u.s. is in so much trouble...
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 1:34 PM
The last bust cycle saw real estate prices in NYC slide by a great deal more than 5%.
I really do think that it is foreign investors boosting the Manhattan market and driving affluent buyers to Brooklyn.
Once Manhattan prices start to slip, Brooklyn will drop like a stone. I know we are all very big Brooklyn boosters, but that island across the bay sets the tone for the region.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 1:39 PM
1:13 yes I would love to pay more taxes so you can stay at home in your three million dollar house, what a great idea, why didn't I think of that. Would you like me to buy you a car also and a second home.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 1:42 PM
Re 11:47's comment----I bought my first place in 1988, in the Financial District, when NOBODY lived there. It had been reduced after the 87 crash, and we loved being pioneers. But by 90 it was worth way less than we paid for it ($169K for 900 SF and 20-foot ceilings!), and by 95, when I took a job in another city, it was virtually unsellable. But the rental market was OK, so I just rented it out, and by the time we returned in 99 it was appreciating (sold it in 2000 and bought in Brooklyn Heights).....
In 92-93 I would have bought a larger place (taken a loss on my FiDi place if I could get a bargain on something else) , but I was disappointed to find that Tribeca and Soho really didn't go down that much, especially the bigger places--5%, MAYBE 10%, while fringe areas like mine went down 40-50%. Who knows what will happen this time around, but the most recent experience of price decline in NYC was very unevenly distributed, and that 35% average decline masks a lot of variation by nabe and type of unit.
Posted by: beenthere at July 25, 2007 1:43 PM
I'm with the person looking at north westchester. That westchester RE site that was listed last week was very interesting and the area looks great. Say what you will, but while I love the city I am not willing to spend that much on a house and sending the kids to private school just for the honorof living here.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 1:44 PM
To answer the original question, the brownstone market is a seller's market and will continue to be, barring any major shocks. Relative to Manhattan brownstones and townhomes, prime Brooklyn (BH, CH, CG and PS) are very good values. The condo market, on the other hand, is becoming a buyer's market and my belief is that lower quality inventory (building and location-wise) will start sinking in value by the fall, especially as new buildings come on line and developers no longer manage supply.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 1:45 PM
Hey anon wife of out of work husband with nanny who joked about foreclosure (wouldn't it be easier if we all used names, whether our real ones or not?), I do the same thing. Joke about foreclosure, I mean. Some people just aren't smart enough to get self-deprecating sarcasm.
Posted by: Amy at July 25, 2007 1:49 PM
But 1:44pm, if you are thinking about the kids, as the piece in the NY Times this weekend pointed out, families are choosing the city over the suburbs because after the commute (for men or women who work office jobs) these parents do not get enough time with their children. The people in the article were talking about how they can now go home for lunch, or go home for dinner with the family then go back to work again. Whereas when they lived in the suburbs they would get home after dinner, sometimes even after bedtime for the children every night. So the kids were basically saying "see you next weekend" to their father on Sunday night when they went to bed. I personally would only move to the suburbs if we can make regular good income as freelancers without having to go into an office every day. Otherwise, no. Quality of life would not be better all around.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 1:56 PM
1:44.. what westchester RE website was that?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 1:58 PM
You got it. It sounds to me that you have very little familiarity with the world of freelance work (which certain fields, i.e., film, consist of almost entirely). It also sounds like you are a humorless prig. Have a fun life.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 2:02 PM
So, basically, what's going to happen is this....the suburbs are going to become the hip place to be because all the freelancers will move out there. The city will become (has already) a stale place for the overworked rich.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:06 PM
i may be a humorless prig (or at least someone who doesn't think that people on the verge of homelessness is amusing), but at least my bf helps to pay the bills.
sounds like you're the one with the fun life, dollface.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 2:08 PM
in terms of commuting, I would rather be sitting for an hour in a Metro Morth train than standing for 45 minutes on the number 5 or whatever.
I also like the change of scenery between the city and the suburbs.
I looked at places in Brooklyn, the subways were awful -and slow! And when I got there I felt I never left the crowded, smelly urban environment where my office is. No thanks.
I like the commute on my train in the cell-free car.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:10 PM
i hope for the environment's sake, if nothing else, that the burbs will never again be "hip"
please no.
just think of poor weiner dog. she couldn't WAIT to run away to the big city!!!
Posted by: anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:11 PM
1:49 - thank you. A voice of sanity in the wilderness. Sometimes I pray for a giant crime wave to wash these people back to the suburbs from whence they came.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 2:14 PM
"standing for 45 minutes on the number 5 or whatever"
sorry if this sounds snarky, but it kinda is. if you've ever waited 45 mins for a number 5 train, you really belong in the suburbs.
sorry, but it's true.
new york isn't made for everyone. survival of the fittest should be the new city slogan.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 2:14 PM
"Good places" in terms of houses, get snapped up right away no matter where you are, be it Brooklyn or Scarsdale. The overpriced crap is what hangs around, city or suburb.
I also wanted to give props to Anonymous at 11 for a nice little support of the suburbs - they aren't quite the death many folks here have convinced themselves they are, although I understand you have to try to use that as a justification for staying in the city - for some reason "I just prefer the city" isn't enough for some people, and they have to denigrate others living choices to make themselves feel better. Most of the world doesn't live in NYC and really, most don't suffer for it. I like NYC a lot, but it's an extremely close-minded attitude that some folks around here seem to have about the suburbs - yes, close-minded, even in NYC. VEnture out into the NYC suburbs one day and you'll see that with the times, the suburbs have changed, and the people living in them.
We are leaving the city for suburbs, and even with the commute (which isn't so bad considering people in the "city" I know have hour or longer commutes, depending on where they live and work), I couldn't be more excited for a big backyard for my dog and baby, huge open parks (state parks in my area), a lot more space and cleaner streets and air. Also, I am going to be in a diverse suburb - only about 64% white, and the rest a mix of mostly latino, black and asian (similiar numbers to what someone posted above). And enough ethnic restaurants to keep me happy.
The suburbs - not a bad option, prospective buyer.
Posted by: Anon at July 25, 2007 2:18 PM
1:49 - thank you. A voice of sanity in the wilderness. Sometimes I pray for a giant crime wave to wash these people back to the suburbs from whence they came.
according to you, you'll be the first one gone!!!
either that, or find yourself a new hubby. STAT!
Posted by: anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:19 PM
"new york isn't made for everyone. survival of the fittest should be the new city slogan"
In your case its survival of the most obnoxious. -another demerit for brownstone Brooklyn, which seems to me is too full of obnoxious, self-righteous, and self-absorbed people.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:20 PM
don't be jealous you couldn't cut it in ny anymore, 2:20.
it's not becoming.
embrace your new life. it shouldn't matter what other people think, if you're truly happy.
oh and btw....enjoy brownstoner!!!
what, no nyacker.com?
LOLOLOLOLOL
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 2:26 PM
1:56, my current commute from Brooklyn is 40-50 minutes. The areas I am looking at are a 40 minute ride to Grand Central, putting my total commute at an hour and 10 minutes. That's an extra 40-50 minutes a day, which is not nothing, but it is not that big a differnece either. I'll leave 20-30 minuites earlier and get home 20 minutes later and won't miss much.
The website was mentioned in the house picks on Friday. It's worth looking at.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:26 PM
well, not 2:10 but I've stood on a 4/5/6 for 45 minutes. who hasn't?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:29 PM
I'm REALLLLY curious why there are so many suburb boosters on brownstoner.
I don't find myself sitting in Park Slope thinking...hmmm...I wonder what's going on with those new developments in Larchmont today.
I wonder....
Posted by: anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:31 PM
Why does a persons decision/musings about where to live always incite blog rage? It's as if people are personally offended if people aren't dying to buy on their block.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:31 PM
I've never understood the
>
Hey, maybe you can't afford your neighborhood. Ever thought of that?
That happened to me. Rented in Chelsea for 15 years and had to move even tho my kids had their friends there. Because, GUESS WHAT, you're not entitled to live where you want to. A million dollar home is not in the Bill of Rights.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:37 PM
> "standing for 45 minutes on the number 5
> or whatever"
> sorry if this sounds snarky, but it kinda is.
> if you've ever waited 45 mins for a number 5
> train, you really belong in the suburbs.
I believe this person meant standing on 5 the train during their commute home, not standing on the platform waiting for a train that will never come.
I have to say that I considered moving to CT when I started to feel priced out of Manhattan and saw how long my friends' commutes to PS and other neighborhoods were. It used to take me an hour to get to a friend's apartment in the Slope from Lower Manhattan on the F train on a bad day. Moved to Dumbo instead but the commute to Midtown is still a real page turner after my old Manhattan ride. I'd go crazy day after day without a book or a copy of NY Magazine.
Posted by: . at July 25, 2007 2:39 PM
2:31.. because many people have recently moved to the suburbs from Bklyn, and are you telling me people in NYC never look at listings or info on houses outside the city? absurd..
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:41 PM
"every Saturday and Sunday that I walk around Brooklyn, I realize much of the diversity, respect for others, and street sense that brooklyn was known for is gone. It is replaced by individuals who has a sense of entitlement over other the surrounding people, who let their kids run wild without an attempt to instill some discipline in their kids, who believe that their neighbors should cater to their spoiled children, and who openly cheer Brooklyn, but complain about the way people act (despite the fact that Brooklyn had been that way for 50 years priro to their arrival and was that way when they moved here)."
1) I think you look for people to reinforce your current outlook.
2) I think your perspective on children's behavior has changed not that you are an older person. And the adult perspective is always 'when I was young things ...' which is really distortion of reality.
3) You have already developed a nostalgia of how you perceived your environment as a child....but let me assure you it is not a totally accurate one.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:44 PM
2:26,
Commute on the train to GCT is 40 minutes.
Unless you work at or next to GCT, add another 30 minutes average on foot or subway to get to wherever your office is.
When people refer to subway commute, they are referring to time on the train to go to within 5 blocks of office, not just to the same city.
Brooklyn to anything below 34th street or above 50th street absolutely trumps commute from Westchester to GCT alone, but happens to exactly match (or beat) Westchester Metro North commutes to 42nd street area.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:46 PM
i'll admit to looking at a listing here or there in another city. i can't however imagine the feeling of being priced out of brooklyn (while pretending that it was something you were doing because you wanted to) to the point of moving to the suburbs, and then find myself on brownstoner.com preaching about how much i LOVE the suburbs to all of us here back in the city.
THAT actually seems absurd to me.
and kinda sad.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 2:46 PM
With every 10% increase of prices in Brooklyn and stagnating prices in outside NY, the hudson valley becomes more and more interesting....
...reverse the locations and the sentence made sense for for the 80ies and 90ies and when people say brooklyn as the alternative to burbs
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 2:47 PM
Just wanted to caveat my earlier post that I loved living in Manhattan and have come to love Dumbo even more. This borough is a great place to live for so many reasons. But I still look at the CT listings out of curiosity. I'm glad I didn't make the move out there, but may chose to do someday, especially if I find myself priced out of Dumbo in a few years time if I have more than 1 child and need a little more space / school tuition.
Posted by: . at July 25, 2007 2:50 PM
sorry, but i beg to differ, 2:47 on more than one count.
#1. i don't find those moving to the burbs (primarily couples with children) all that interesting in general. once the baby comes, that's all they talk about.
#2. the "interesting" people for the most part and the ones that new york city are known for, talked about, portrayed on tv etc are the young, creative set. they aren't moving to the burbs, i guarantee you.
#3. the moving to the burbs thing is on its way out. we are in the beginnings of a major green bubble in the u.s. mcmansions and the like don't make sense for those of us that care about the earth.
#4 don't get me wrong. there will always be people who want to live in the burbs but please don't fool yourself into thinking that brooklyn's loss is your gain. it simply isn't true.
i've known 2 people, btw who moved to the burbs about 3 years ago.
both are back in carrol gardens.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 2:56 PM
Can't someone love where they are and yet still miss things about where they were, and want to keep in touch?
What a small minded, self-righteous bunch of- oh, wait, that's why I come here. Carry on then!
Posted by: Amy at July 25, 2007 2:59 PM
One note for people:
Once you succumb to temptation to get that huge spread outside the city (and not keep your investment in properties here), don't expect the burbs to appreciate anywhere near in tandem with what that "little old place of yours in Brooklyn" is worth.
I have two separate friends that sold townhouses in the Slope (One on Sterling, one on 2nd St) 5 years ago, and while their nice spreads up north (one in Bedford, one in Somers) have appreciated, the Park Slope properties have doubled the appreciation they've seen for their (nice!) homes out there.
There is just endless supply of nice, large homes out there. 2.0MM gets you an old PS brownstone in need of serious work, or a beautiful huge old colonial on 5 or 10 acres in Bedford.
But, over time, guess which one will hit 3.0MM (and beyond) first, and likely in half the time...
It all boils down to a lifestyle decision, to be sure, but when you make that big leap to the burbs, unless you make the big Wall Street silly money, don't expect to be able to afford even your old place in Brooklyn after you move.
This will be even moreso the case in case of market downturn, when far more inventory out in the burbs is much less able to sop up whatever diminished demand may exist.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 3:04 PM
2:46pm, Please re-read my post from 11am. I read brownstoner because I have a brownstone investment property. You know, I kind of want to keep track of that. I also read it when I don't feel like working.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 3:04 PM
what's up with people in the city judging the "burbs" who have never lived there...as pathetic as people outside nyc saying how horrible living in nyc is, when they've never lived there either.
i've lived half my life in BOTH. they're both great. only thing is, far more insecure city folk bashing everything outside city limits.
You really come off as tacky. Not EDGY, or tough. Grow up..
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 3:06 PM
i think some of you are missing the point here. it's not bashing the suburbs for the sake of bashing....
some of you old timers grew up in the suburbs when they were a fun place, when all your friends were bolting the big cities in search of a bucolic life without crime. i get that.
things have changed. for most of us that are 35 and under, growing up in the suburbs was like a prison sentence. it was awful. the suburbs these days have a way of making you feel like it's not ok to be different, it's not ok to be creative and it's just plain boring.
those of you who are taking your kids out of the best city in the world so they they can play by themselves in their great big lush backyard are doing themselves a disservice. i truly believe that.
i think it's one of the big reasons why so many kids these days are unable to interract with other people unless it's over a computer, and why our nation is becoming fatter, why we are addicted to the television, etc.
i'm not saying it's not possible to raise a well adjusted kid in the suburbs, but i can speak from experience that if i ever have a child, i would not want them to grow up in a perfectly lovely, upscale suburb like i did.
just my 2 cents.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 3:14 PM
It is a very different life in the suburbs for the parents than it is for the children. The parents think it's nice and peaceful and the kids usually hate it.
Ask around...see how many 20 somethings enjoyed living in the suburbs. Parents are the ones who make the decisions obviously about where to live, but the kids are usually the ones that suffer.
Posted by: anonymous at July 25, 2007 3:21 PM
those of you who make your life decision based on your single experience 30 years ago are idiots
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 3:21 PM
Amy, you're cracking me up. I'm loving your humourous interludes.
Posted by: Biff Champion at July 25, 2007 3:21 PM
There is a reason why people who come to visit the U.S. don't say....Our top list of places to hit are Darien, Nyack and Orange. It's NYC, Washington, San Francisco, Seattle.
You know why? There's aint nothing to see in those places. Now imagine growing up for the first 18 years of your life in a place like that...
Any questions?
Posted by: anonymous at July 25, 2007 3:30 PM
3:30, just because a place is a popular tourist destination doesn't necessarily mean it's a great place to live. I would love to visit Antarctica, Bali, etc., but am not plan on moving there anytime soon.
Posted by: Biff Champion at July 25, 2007 3:36 PM
In response to one person's questions, why this blog has so many posts on the suburbs is that this site is no longer about brownstones.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 3:39 PM
you just named two places where large cities don't exist.
if you went to italy, would you go without seeing florence or rome or venice?
would you go to the u.k. without going to london?
france without paris?
probably not. i'm not saying that off the beaten path places aren't good or that all rural areas and suburbs suck, but i'm trying to make the point that cities have a lot to offer. for living and for young minds to have things to be excited about.
you realize that up until about 60 years ago, MOST people lived in or very close to a city.
the whole suburban flight issue in the u.s. has been something that we've being trying to reverse for the last 30 or so years.
there's a reason for that. it's not just my opinion.
Posted by: anonymous at July 25, 2007 3:42 PM
I grew up in the suburbs and loved it. But then again, I wasn't a loser.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 3:44 PM
^^ hah.
Posted by: webster at July 25, 2007 3:50 PM
the problem is, if you don't act/look like like paris hilton or lindsay lohan , everyone's a loser in the burbs.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 3:52 PM
I've been to Florence, Rome, Venice, London and Paris. So your point is well taken. I happen to be from a big city (Toronto), have lived in Manhattan and now live in BH. I'm used to the city and love the city and wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But I thought we were talking about city vs. suburban living, not where one would rather visit.
you realize that up until about 60 years ago, MOST people lived in or very close to a city.
the whole suburban flight issue in the u.s. has been something that we've being trying to reverse for the last 30 or so years.
there's a reason for that. it's not just my opinion.
Posted by: Biff Champion at July 25, 2007 3:55 PM
Ok, I can't speak for every suburb of NYC (but it seems some of you can). I'm in Beacon and I can tell you for a FACT that there are plenty of "interesting" people moving up here. From Brooklyn. With and without kids. Lots of them. And guess what else? Big time green movement up here...building, local/slow food movement.
And I see plenty of tourist going to DIA and buying art and antiques on Main Street. Is this the "burbs" you're talking about?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 3:59 PM
well i think the two are connected.
i wouldn't want to live in a place i wouldn't want to visit.
and i have no intention of ever hitting the burbs of paris anytime soon.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 4:01 PM
oops, didn't mean to repeat 3:42's last few thoughts in my email...although i do agree with them.
Posted by: Biff Champion at July 25, 2007 4:01 PM
Ohh some of you people are laughable. Just cause you can't afford the million dollar brownstone, you're hightailing to the suburbs...
some of you sound liks spoiled kids, I'm not living in brooklyn if it's not in a brownstone (mouth pouted and feet stomping)
There are many lovely neighbourhoods in Brooklyn with brownstones too, if it's brownstones you're chasing...come down to the flatbush area, have some rice and beans and some curry goat, with a side of fried plantains now that's diversity
Posted by: Maria at July 25, 2007 4:01 PM
Beacon is a city located in Dutchess County, New York, USA. Although the city's estimated living population is around 16,000 people, the 2000 census placed the city total population at 13,808.
sounds lovely, but i had about 1/4 this many people in my high school.
comparing this to nyc is rather far fetched to say the least.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 4:05 PM
Well folks, I can say at least one thing here with absolute, indisputable certainty:
John (9:54am) has won the over, as my post here would appear to be post #150.
:P
Posted by: webster at July 25, 2007 4:05 PM
I grew up in Brooklyn and it was great in many ways, but my fondest memories of childhood are all at our country house, playing outside in the woods and down at the lake. My parents took me to museums and all sorts of other cultural stuff, but I'm darned if I remember it.
I've spoken to 5 people who grew up in the area I am looking at and they all loved it. Loved living near woods and hiking and biking and lakes and pools, Loved the sense of community. Loved being able to go into the city on weekends. Loved the schools One person said it was the "perfectly balanced" childhood. Sounds good to me.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 4:06 PM
3:59.. Thanks for your comment, beacon is AMAZING. looked there, loved it, and while we didn't end up moving there we settled elsewhere in the Hudson Valley. People don't know Beacon is only a little over an hour (express) on Metro North. Amazing water front spot, DIA, etc.
The words that ring most true, as someone posted earlier, there IS in fact life..after brooklyn....
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 4:08 PM
webster, how about the over/under on 200 posts?
Posted by: Biff Champion at July 25, 2007 4:11 PM
Beacon's great. But it is not a suburb of New York any more than Philadelphia is. If you can live and work there, fine, but a daily commute to NYC would be soul-killing.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 4:11 PM
re: the problem is, if you don't act/look like like paris hilton or lindsay lohan , everyone's a loser in the burbs.
Do you think that is so much different in NYC?
re: rich suburban lifestyle
some seem to imply that in 5years another 30-50% appreciation will be happen in Brooklyn, while suburbs will stagnate. Guess what: Then prime blocks are the well-off peoples ghetto.
If everybody wants to flock to Brooklyn, prices will go up and some can not pay for it. Will they take a rope and hang themselves or find a viable solution somewhere else.
If supply and demand work in favor of brookly, some will be priced out at some point
Disclaimer: I don't plan to move out of PS anytime soon, but it is nice to know there actually is an alternative and NYC is jts 40min away on a train, 10 min more than I need get into Manhattan
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 4:15 PM
I have to wonder, if those who chose the suburbs love it so much then why do they get so defensive about it? Doth they protest too much? It sounds more like they're afraid they made the wrong decision, sometimes, more than they actually love it there. Secondly, about the commute, you can't only compare actual travel times on metro north vs. the subway. Hi, in the suburbs you have to include time spent in the car on the way to the train station, AND the time waiting for the train. The train does not come as frequently as the subways do in NYC.
I happen to be very open minded to living outside the city. We ourselves have these debates all the time, whether we'd rather live up in CT. I love rural settings. We just bought a house in Brooklyn. It's lovely. But we'll see how it goes. I just know this, if we decide to go to the suburbs it's going to be only after we've fully confronted all the downsides of the suburbs. Not because we're brainwashing ourselves that it's the best place to be in the world. You sacrifice SOMEthing everywhere you move. Any dummy knows that. Pardon my use of "dummy" but this has been a dumb discussion.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 4:20 PM
"I've been to Florence, Rome, Venice, London and Paris. So your point is well taken. I happen to be from a big city (Toronto)..."
LOL! And yesterday you were on here pontificating about Fourth Avenue losing its urban authenticity. Oooooh! Bloor Street, repreSENT!
Dude, you grew up in a freaking movie set. Spare us your lectures on "real NYC" from now on.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 4:24 PM
Biff, hah, seriously. This one has legs.
Wonder where else it will go.
To be honest, I think our long-term plan is to keep Brooklyn house and also get a beach (or perhaps country, a la Berkshires) house.
Best of both worlds, as kids can invite longtime Brooklyn friends out to the house for the week/weekend, and kids can also meet other folks out wherever that may be.
We are definitely a number of years from that (something to work for), but that's the sort of long-term balance that sounds good to us (which is actually a combination of the two sides mentioned above).
But then again that's just us, buncha maroons we are.
Posted by: webster at July 25, 2007 4:25 PM
Seems to both Brooklynites and Hudson Valley folks are defensive here.
I note lots of peolple say how bad the suburbs are. Nobody is claiming how bad Brooklyn is, just that it is possible to find live outside Brooklyn as well.
Judge yourself.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 4:26 PM
I don't think your bet counts. The subject matter was "Is it a buyers or sellers market for townhomes", not "Bklyn vs Burbs".
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 4:40 PM
This isn't about which is BETTER, Brooklyn or the Suburbs (completely ridiculous debate), it's about the fact that those who live outside the city love BOTH the country (believe me, it's really nice up here) and the city much of the time (lived in nyc for 2 decades), there is a tendency for people in the city to bash everything about any location outside the city limits.
This blog and ongoing postings are proof! Then again, I forgot that everyone in Brooklyn is an expert on everything, surely far more enlightened than me..
Have a nice evening.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 4:43 PM
Isn't it amazing that it was that, and not "strollers vs singles?"
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 4:43 PM
4:40, yeah, because other than this one, all 100+ comments posts on Brownstoner stay totally on topic.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 4:44 PM
4:24, I'm flattered that you've been closely following my posts, like a schoolgirl with a crush. But had you a brain, you would have understood my point was that the same folks in PS who were describing their neighborhood as trendy and edgy were the same ones who were welcoming with open arms Starbucks, Whole Foods, etc. I never claimed to be an expert on "real NYC" - however you define that, big mouth.
Posted by: Biff Champion at July 25, 2007 4:45 PM
we did that city house/beach house thing and it's great until your kids hit about age 9 and then they have too many social/sport engagements to ever want to leave town. so if you want to do that, do it now and sell in 10 years
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 4:50 PM
If I knew that my neighbors in Brooklyn have this attitude about Brooklyn...I will be gone in a minute.
The brownstone revolution eats its children.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 4:52 PM
Thanks, Biff. And I'm really grooving on your name. Since I usually don't have much of substance to contribute, I'm glad I can make someone laugh occasionally.
I've never lived in the suburbs, but when I was growing up I really envied people who did. My husband grew up in the 'burbs though, and has told me what a soul-sucking existence it was.
For me personally, I think it would be a disastrous decision. I really like walking a few blocks and seeing several people I'm friends with, every time. I'm not the type to spend a lot of energy seeking out friends, so this environment is perfect for me, with the playground communities and the schools close enough to walk to. If I lived in the suburbs I would be alone and drunk every day by noon.
Of course, I may be forced to try it out after our house is snatched back by the bank. Dammit, there I go again!
Posted by: Amy at July 25, 2007 4:57 PM
Clearly this is self-serving, but I agree with 4:40, "The subject matter was 'Is it a buyers or sellers market for townhomes,' not 'Bklyn vs Burbs.'" I am waiting for an official tally from PriceWaterhouse.
Posted by: Rob at July 25, 2007 4:58 PM
For me, the problem with raising children in brooklyn is the other parents. Everyone is so sure of themselves. They are doing it the right way and everyone else is wrong. very very wrong.
Just like what I'm reading on this thread.
I visit friends in the suburbs and think "the house! the yard! the schools! the parking!" I prefer my place in Brooklyn, but I can see the upside to life outside a city. But nooooooooo! In Brooklyn, everyone here has one data point ("I knew someone who grew up in the suburbs once and they hated it" I can't imagine doing that to my child!") and they run with it.
Pfft. Brooklyn is a pretty provincial town when you get down to it.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 5:06 PM
LOL, Amy. You did it again. Not having much of substance never stopped anyone, including myself, from jumping into a discussion. "anon wife of out of work husband with nanny who joked about foreclosure" will go down as an instant Brownstoner classic and constant reminder that everyone should be required to have a handle here, even if it does open people like me up to having others use my contradictory opinions used against me.
I grew up in the 'burbs, despite some pencil-necked geek above assuming I grew up on a movie set, and it seems idyllic in retrospect, but I'm sure the experiences my kids will have growing up in the city will be equally as memorable and positive. Lastly, there's something to be said for getting drunk every day by noon, although I prefer to wait until 1 or 2(pm).
Posted by: Biff Champion at July 25, 2007 5:07 PM
It made the natural evolution to Bklyn vs. Burbs because if you can't buy now (who can?) then many would have you believe you're PRICED OUT FOREVER!!! and what's left but drinking yourself to death on a riding mower out there, somewhere?
I existed in Bergen County for a dozen long years (a state fulla losers, as Brooce said, more or less), lived in Manhattan for another 10, and spent another 15 years as a student & peon in various small American burgs ... only in Brooklyn for 3 yrs, but crash-willing, we ain't leaving.
Out there in the U.S., if you're lucky, there's a half-block or two in your town that's "a lot like New York, really," where you sip coffee or drink with other refugees and wanna-bes and dream of moving back.
Posted by: cgwatcher at July 25, 2007 5:16 PM
Perhaps the Brooklyn vs. the Burbs detour this thread has taken is related to the dreaded three-bedroom NYC apartment search. Brownstone Brooklyn has been the natural, and relatively affordable place to turn for such housing. But with such high demand for brownstones coupled with limited stock not to mention skyrocketing prices city wide, it's getting trickier.
I don't think anyone treats the spectre of a move to the country or the 'burbs lightly. I certainly wouldn't trade in my city digs for a McMansion, but I might trade it in for a sweet cottage with three bedrooms where I could walk to town and the beach. I would prefer to stay in the city for a lot of reasons, and the fact that it's a better investment is surely one of them, but if it gets too expensive I may opt out.
Where is it easy to be a kid these days when it comes to social pressure? Many parts of the suburbs can be soul deadening, it's true, but certain aspects of our youngest NYC residents' social lives can be quite bleak, too. It's hard not to look at some of my daughter's school mates and wonder which of them will grow up to be Paris Hiltons.
Posted by: tough call at July 25, 2007 5:18 PM
The single biggest factor in the Brooklyn/NYC vs Suburb debate is the public schools. Getting a good public education in NYC is a job (and not guaranteed) while in most suburban areas, the public school systems are better than adequate.
On a more important note So Maria (4:01) - where can I get GOOD curried goat w/ peas and rice in Brooklyn.
Posted by: David at July 25, 2007 5:26 PM
This is anon-wife-of-out-of-work-husband-with-nanny-and -foreclosure-insensitivities and I agree with Biff, I love amy.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 5:27 PM
at least they'll be little paris hiltons with some street smarts and know to at least call your driver if you're wasted.
that's all i'm sayin
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 5:27 PM
A post I would someday love to read on Brownstoner:
"I wanted to live in [placename A]. But I couldn't afford it, so I moved to [placename B]. I don't like it as well. It's not as good. I wish I could afford to live in [placename A]. But I can't, so I'm making the best of it. All of you who live in [placename A], I'm happy for you."
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 5:30 PM
I wanted to live in duplex coop at corner of Park and 73rd. But I couldn't afford it so I moved to 1 bedroom coop at Madison and 75th. I don't like it as well. It's not as good. I wish I could afford to live in duplex coop at corner of Park and 73rd.
But I can't, so I'm making the best of it. All of you live on Park, I'm happy for you.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 5:35 PM
Anon 5:30, why do you care if you ever read that here?
Posted by: Shirley at July 25, 2007 5:39 PM
You've got me there, 5:27. The pedestrian / cab lifestyle is one of my favorite aspects of city life. Cars in the 'burbs can be really scary and they are usually HUGE.
I doubt we'll leave the city. It's just something I think about when my F station especially reeks of pee or when the summer garbage makes even grown men start gagging, or when I contemplate retirement vs. tuition...
Posted by: tough call at July 25, 2007 5:43 PM
Anyone who wants a burb that is "a lot like new york" should stay. I'm leaving because I want my kids to experience somehing different. And I'm picking an area that is distinctly different from the city, not a pale replica.
I can't find the Westcher RE site mentioned above. Anuone know the name?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 5:50 PM
most kids in the burbs get to experience a lot.
it's called playstation 3.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 5:53 PM
Just to clarify, my statement earlier was just to point out that Brooklyn is no longer and clear choice over moving out of the City.
As for Brooklyn changing, when was the last time, you saw children playing with little to no supervision, because the people in the neighborhood had lived there for many years knew the surrounding families and knew someone would look out for the children. That was Brooklyn at its greatest. To me the word "play-date" is like giving the middle finger to Brooklyn. And to those who are taken back by allowing children to play in the street with little to no supervision, you never knew how great Brooklyn was and you never will. Twenty years ago, Brooklyn did not have an chain stores, most were local mom and pop shops. If you wanted the brand name, you went to Macy's or the City. Each neighborhood had its own identity (whether it was ethnic, racial, working class, established immigrants, new immigrants, etc...) and each, neighborhood respected the other neighborhoods, of course, they all thought their neighbohood was better, but no one tried to change the other neighborhoods to better suit themselves. To grow up in Brooklyn used to me something, it ment you were tough and smart, regardless of your educational background. The resturants in Brooklyn were always much better than Manhattan, because they were authentic, and nobody, besides those who lived in the neighborhood, or really loved Brooklyn knew about them.
Sorry, I didn't break this post up, but I really don't see the point to cater to a Yuppy with a blackberry.
Oh, and finally, as to those arguments that I am knocking Brooklyn, because I can't afford it, hold your classist opinions. Amazing as it may be, my wife and I can afford a brownstone, but have chosen not to buy, because we both feel the brownstones are not worth the asking price. Just because you can afford something shouldn't be the basis for buying something.
Posted by: Prospective Buyer at July 25, 2007 5:54 PM
the world is a changin, 5:54. get with the program. hate to break it to you, but the whole u.s. used to be a different place back "in the day"
it's not just brooklyn.
i'm fine with remembering the good ole days, but to play devil's advocate, brooklyn is, in a lot of ways much better today than it was 30 years ago.
for one, i can walk down my street without getting hit with a stray bullet.
Posted by: anon at July 25, 2007 6:01 PM
I lived in the midwest 5;54, and it was like that there too. Thirty years make a difference all over.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 6:09 PM
to combine the two topics:
When i told my cubicle neighbor, who lives deep in NJ in Morristown, that we live in Park Slope her answer was:
Is that the place with all the Bugaboos?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 6:10 PM
I could be wrong, but I don't think the request to break up your posts was in order to cater to a yuppie with a crackberry (which is redundant). I think it was a joke referencing the over/under bets early in the thread.
I think if everyone assumed from now on that comments were sarcastic/joking/not to be taken literally unless there was strong evidence to the contrary, this would be more fun. Also, it would rain money, gas would be given away for free, puppies would never die, and Katie would kick Tom to the curb and raise all three of his children to be free-thinking non-robots.
OK, obviously the pressure to make my following (of two) laugh is getting to me, and it's feeling forced. I need a nap.
Posted by: Amy at July 25, 2007 6:11 PM
Amy,
I, for one, find that appalling.
I would never consider a nap without first enjoying a beer.
Posted by: webster at July 25, 2007 6:16 PM
But I don't drink! Can I eat a lot of cheese first?
Posted by: Amy at July 25, 2007 6:18 PM
"Oh, and finally, as to those arguments that I am knocking Brooklyn, because I can't afford it, hold your classist opinions. Amazing as it may be, my wife and I can afford a brownstone, but have chosen not to buy..."
Yes, yes, of course. Everyone on Brownstoner makes the best of all possible choices, lives in the best of all possible places, is as happy as humanly possible, and would not do anything or live anywhere differently if they won the Megamillons tomorrow.
We're all as content as can possibly be. Can't you tell from all the positivity here?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 6:19 PM
Amy, your fan club (i.e., anon 5:27 and I) are here for you and appreciate both your Kathy Griffin-esque zingers and the other attempts to crack us up that you may think go over like lead balloons. Have your nap (and eat it too) and we'll both be back later with our unappreciated sarcasm and unadulterated cynicism.
Posted by: Biff Champion at July 25, 2007 6:21 PM
Also, Prospective Buyer, I think people are saying you are knocking Brooklyn because you can't afford it because in your first post, YOU SAID YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT:
"For the next ten years, my wife and I, and any children that we might have in the near future would be restricted on our lif style...."
Not buying because you'd be overstretched IS not being able to afford it. It's just that, unlike the overspenders out there, you realize you can't afford it, even if you don't like to use that term.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 6:23 PM
Prospective Buyer -
Everything changes and city life wasn't as wonderful as you are selectively remembering. You sound much too young to pining for the good ol' days.
You'll be searching for something that never really existed but in your innocent childhood imagination.
Even in small towns, rural, suburbs people also claim was better 20 years or 30 years or 60 years ago.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 6:31 PM
Thanks, Biff. Please visit me at the Gates Reno for more unappreciated sarcasm and unadulterated cynicism (with some questionable decisions and a good bit of defensiveness for said decisions mixed in for good measure).
Posted by: Amy at July 25, 2007 6:34 PM
Brooklyn's even sweeter now that I won $100 from Rob @ 10.03. Woo hoo!!!!
Posted by: John at July 25, 2007 6:42 PM
Yahoo! Even more ways to appreciate you. Anon 5:27 and I will check it out tomorrow, assuming I can catch up on all the work I didn't do today (speaking of questionable decisions).
Posted by: Biff Champion at July 25, 2007 6:43 PM
buyer's market
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 7:22 PM
For condos, as one of the original posters noted, but not for houses.
Posted by: anoone at July 25, 2007 7:37 PM
Don't look now Biff, but here's your 200th post.
Nice bet, John.
Now just how did you effect to post so many seemingly different characters and viewpoints?
Hah, j/k.
Posted by: webster at July 25, 2007 7:38 PM
Biff and Amy...get a room!!
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 9:16 PM
Oh, well now, the possibilities are endless! WWJBD pens for closings. WWJBD cardboard boxes for moving day (or for living in after the foreclosure). And of course, a WWJBD Magic 8 Ball for predicting the rise or fall of Brooklyn real estate!
Posted by: Amy at July 25, 2007 9:17 PM
Good idea, 9:16. Amy, what say we try out the overpriced Hotel Le Bleu that sparked over 100 posts in a thread yesterday? (Suddenly 100 posts seems quite pathetic). I heard they have a great selection of cheeses. We can invite anon-wife-of-out-of-work-husband-with-nanny-who-joked-about-foreclosure and anon 5:27 and make a party out of it.
Posted by: Biff Champion at July 25, 2007 10:21 PM
I'm a white guy, non-wall street, been looking to buy a brownstone for 18 months now (rented in NYC for 14 years). As my income is limited I've been looking to buy a 2/3 family brownstone in area's I can afford - Bedstuy, Crownheights, Prospect L.G, etc. The goal is to buy a building, live in it, and offset the mortgage from a rental unit (or 2). For the past 18 months I've looked at over 125 brownstones, found 4 that I could afford (750-900K) and have been outbid on all of them. From personal experience, there is a lack of "decent" inventory in this market. AS soon as ANYTHING decent hits the market, there are multiple buyers. By decent I refer to buildings that do not need much work to move in (working kitchens, baths, etc) - and usually have good brownstone detail intact. I have seen great examples of this (100 decatur, 365 Parkside avenue - among others). Bottom line is that anything less than $1mm that does not need 100k of renovations will move quickly - that is my observation. From talking to brokers and other buyers, it seems that many people are simply priced out of NYC and/or want more space for their money, without leaving NYC proper.
On a positive note, I found a building I could afford in Crown heights, submitted a bid (which was accepted) and signed a contract. Close in 2 months!!
Posted by: Kliff Claven at July 25, 2007 10:38 PM
What the hell does being "a white guy" have anything to do with buying a brownstone?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 10:42 PM
Kliff,
Don't count your chickens yet, bucko!! I know the house in Crown House and earlier today I submitted a much higher offer that the seller quickly accepted. You will be notified tomorrow (through your attorney) that the seller is breaking the contract. I love that house and offered $100k more than you. Sorry for busting your bubble. This is NYC. The almighty dollar talks and still rules the day!
Posted by: Anonymous at July 25, 2007 11:39 PM
11:39 -- Are you not aware that Kliff is a white man? You won't get away with pulling that crap on him.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 9:29 AM
Sorry, John, but I just counted 30 posts that were on the topic, expressed in the form of a question right from the start, "Is It a Buyer's or Seller's Market in Townhouses?" That's less than 15 percent of the total. With the exception of 7:22, 7:37 and 10:38 PM, there was not a single post on topic after two in the afternoon, yesterday. I'd say I won the bet, but let's call it a draw since we probably defined the contest differently.
Posted by: Rob at July 26, 2007 11:39 AM
I wonder what will happen if (and hopefully when) Congress finally wakes up and cuts off that tax loophole for i-bankers.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 26, 2007 1:20 PM
1:20 - I am a banker. To what loopholes are you referring. Please let me know, because a full 40% of my income went to fund this great city's infrastructure.
Capital gains tax is something different entirely, and that is where the loopholes exist
don't be blined by the media. understand the facts.
Posted by: bedstuyhoya at July 26, 2007 2:44 PM
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