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July 11, 2007
House of the Day: 590 Decatur Street
For a house with a ton of charm and not in need of a ton of work, 590 Decatur Street seems reasonably priced at $699,000. The only drawback we can see is that it's pretty far east into Bed Stuy--several blocks beyond Stuyvesant Heights. It's about equi-distant from the Ralph Avenue C train and the Halsey Street J train. The three-story, two-family house in one in a row of charmer, though. Any readers live right around here? What are the services like?
590 Decatur Street [Brooklyn Properties] GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
That's what I love about Stuyvesant Heights (even if this is not technically Stuy Heights): all the gorgeous plants people set out in front of their houses. It shows how much pride people take in their neighborhood.
Posted by: anonymous at July 11, 2007 1:22 PM
This house looks great from the outside and has some charming details, but it looks like the bedrooms are on the parlor floor and the living room/kitchen are on the lower floor. I would want to flip/flop this to take advantage of the better light and higher ceilings on the parlor floor.
Posted by: tinarina at July 11, 2007 1:27 PM
Pretty blockfront. Super nice.
Posted by: Sam at July 11, 2007 1:33 PM
What a silly comment, 1:28.
Posted by: crouchback at July 11, 2007 1:38 PM
Well, I hope that people tht read this blog continue to think that way, so they dont drive up the prices in this neighborhood.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 2:05 PM
When did it become racist to ask about the character of a neighborhood in the process of determining the value of a home in that heighborhood? Race was not mentioned. When I read it, I thought "yes, I know that drug sales and the accompanying violent crime are worse in Bed Stuy than in other areas of Brooklyn, and less of a problem than in other areas. Within Bed Stuy there are better and worse areas. I wonder if this address in in a better or worse area..."
Next you will call B a racist for acknowledging the fact that the residents of Bed Stuy, as in some other neighborhoods, seem to have a higher tolerance for/proclivity for littering than in Park Slope, let's say. Neither statement is racist, but both are honest questions and observations about the character of a neighborhood.
Crying "racist" all the time is a convenient way of avoiding realities, and also deadens people to paying attention when you cry racist over something that actually merits the cry.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 2:05 PM
2:05
Maybe crying racist isnt the correct term, but crying ignorant is. There are numerous beautiful and safe blocks in Bed-Stuy that are inhabitied by middle class black families that OWN their brownstones. However at times, this website does nothing to dispell negative stereotypes about the area. But I hope that these negative stereotypes continue to be spread by people on the website so in 3 yrs when im ready to buy in Bed-Stuy, the price tag can be under 900k.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 2:12 PM
seriously. why would you want to drive up prices in the nieghborhood and allow the residents who paid much less for those places to retire comfortably? or, even worse, why would you want to increase the tax base in that neighborhood? or improve the schools? get over yourselves and your idiotic racist accusations.
Posted by: anon at July 11, 2007 2:19 PM
"There are numerous beautiful and safe blocks in Bed-Stuy that are inhabitied by middle class black families that OWN their brownstones."
And there are numerous blocks that aren't. Which kind is this one?
That's what Brownstoner was asking, and it's a perfectly legitimate question.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 2:21 PM
So, anyone up for answering Brownstoner's question about services in the area? I would also love to hear from those of you who live nearby. Thanks!
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 2:21 PM
My take on the "The only drawback we can see is that it's pretty far east into Bed Stuy--several blocks beyond Stuyvesant Heights. " comment was in relation to the proximity to trains and Manhattan (Where a lot of people tend to work).
Maybe I'm naive, but I think way too many people on this board play the "racist" card when any thing is spoken about a neighborhood that is not primarily composed of White folks. It's just plain negative and getting old and in most cases not warranted. Your anger would be better focused away from this board and towards something more constructive.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 2:23 PM
Calm down -- I live on Decatur (on the other side of Stuy Heights proper).
The part of Bed Stuy that is near Broadway has not yet been considered "prime" Bed-Stuy, even though there are some lovely houses on some blocks.
Every neighborhood has prime parts and it not-so-prime spots. It is normal. So, give Mr. B a break.
Posted by: Big Paws on a Puppy at July 11, 2007 2:23 PM
I viewed this house last week and the pictures are clearly doctored! NYTIMES has this property listed at 675K, upon arriving the broker immediately says there was an error made and the house is 699K. Thus, the 15K you thought you were saving to put into renovations went out the window... The house is in deplorable shape. Not only are the pictures doctored by Brooklyn Properties but they also neglected to advise there client to clean up (just a little)before opening there home to prospective buyers. If you really want to know about the neighborhood, visit it at 2AM and see if you get robbed; NOT! Decatur (this block)is very peaceful, clean and family oriented. 617 Decatur (Brown Harris Stevens) is a much better buy for your money. It's owned by white people...
Posted by: Kim at July 11, 2007 2:23 PM
I can't believe I'm actually defending B-stoner, but here goes: When he ignores the problems of certain 'hoods (like CH, Bed stuy, etc.) he gets sh*t. When he points out the flaws of a 'hood like crime or schools (which, let's be honest, would be on the minds of many buyers) he gets sh*t. Can't have it both ways people.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 2:28 PM
... and another thread collapsed from the weight of spurious accusations of racism.
Posted by: z at July 11, 2007 2:47 PM
I live in Bed-Stuy and love Bed-Stuy, and I have come to dread these Bed-Stuy house posts. If anyone wants to have a non-hysterical discussion of the merits and drawbacks of the neighborhood, I am always game. But instead it always turns into this mindless vitriol and race-baiting schadenfreude. I'm out.
Posted by: anonymous at July 11, 2007 2:49 PM
...or from the the weight of actual racism.
Posted by: clinton hillbilly at July 11, 2007 2:58 PM
anyone who thinks that a white person shouldn't think carefully about moving to a black neighborhood is just crazy. having lived in prospect heights a few years back, i know for sure that it totally sucks. guys will hassle you senseless when they are not out right threatening you. i had a rottie and a pit mix, which is the only reason i had any piece of mind.
even if a white person is not racist, that black kid probably is. rest assured, he does not like you and totally prepared to fuck you up.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 3:06 PM
this area sucks and thats that..you wonder why its so fairly priced cause the neightborhood sucks...no really its sucks..guys on the corner, in front of the corner store and unnerving sense of somethings going to happen..Sorry kids this area sucks and more power to those who brave the waters and mover there..white, black, hispanic, indian and so on...its simply not safe..
Posted by: Politically correct my ass at July 11, 2007 3:23 PM
what's deplorable about this house. what types of renovatios are needed. thx.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 3:23 PM
Bed Stuy is probably the largest African American neighborhood in the whole country. Some parts are nice, some not.
There are poor people, and affluent people just like in any other large community.
For a white or asian person the real question is, would I feel comfortable living there? It's a valid question.
It is human nature to want to be accepted as a part of the community.
Would one feel comfortable being an agent of change or not? These are thorny issues. It is not a matter of being a racist or not being a racist.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 3:28 PM
3:06 is not my idea of a "value add" comment. Now, that said. The B-stoner post has merit. If you're familiar with Decatur in Bed-Stuy, you'd know for a fact that this property does not compare to 100 Decatur which ALSO is NOT in Stuy-Heights. Now, the further east you go on Decatur, the sketchier the neighborhood gets. Now, I didn't say, the further east you go the blacker the neighborhood gets.
I'm black... for the record. I live in Bed-Stuy... and when I was looking to buy in bed stuy.. I SPECIFICALLY told the broker, "I don't want to see anything east of Malcolm X and I'd preferably want to be West of Stuyvesant."
Sometimes these comments sound like you may indeed be Charlie Murphy... " Oh, I can't come in the party 'cause I'm BLACK right? " ... " Uh, no Sir, You can't come in because you're Naked and you don't have a ticket "
Stop it already!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 3:32 PM
not that anybody cares, but i live a couple blocks from this house, on the bushwick side. J train access is good, broadway's rough around the edges, but it's coming along nicely. nobody who moves here should expect to find the fancy stuff one finds further west. nice little asian fruit market at halsey/broadway; i'm not sure if there's a grocery store nearer than the hancock/broadway key food but there are probably smaller grocerias. there's a diner and a chinese restaurant, that's about it. oh, and a dunkin donuts/popeye's and a rite aid nearby!
Posted by: Jimmy Legs at July 11, 2007 3:34 PM
bravo 3:06! to ignore the race/ethnic make-up of a community is beyond idiotic. we all make decisions about our comfort level with different communities, black or white, when we decide where we want to live and to ignore that is racist in itself.
I just wish all these bleeding heart liberals would take nice leisurely walks in some of the highest-crime ridden areas with their children. maybe when they get mugged or are victims of stray bullets (which has been in the headlines recently) they can sacrifice their loved ones in the name of racial harmony. and at the funeral, they can say how noble it was. WAKE UP! Read the newspapers! NYC still has a serious crime problem and and to ignore that in the name of diversity hurts the people who are mostly the victims of these crimes.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 3:36 PM
WOW!
Love the straight up racism and ignorance on a Wednesday afternoon. Must be the weather.
I live around the corner from this house and the neigh is not that bad. Decatur straight through has nice blocks owned by majority hard working black folks.
I suggest that white folks looking for the brownstone dream abandon Bed Stuy and other Brooklyn neighborhoods that they have been invading in the past years. If you're so concerned on running Black folks out of town, why move into town in the first place.
WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE.
-RENTS GO UP- because they live like juppies (3 in an apt) and ignore Family values.
-RE property goes up- They get suckered into buying high because they have Mommy and Daddy to fall back on.
WE DON'T NEED YOU....
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 3:38 PM
These "bleeding heart liberals" do take nice leisurely walks in BS, because we live there. Apparently, you ARE reading the paper, but not getting out of your house, which, from your rant, I assume is in Texas or some other backwards state.
Posted by: BHL and proud at July 11, 2007 3:49 PM
3:38pm... Now there's a racist. Oops, sorry, he's black -can't call him that. he's a victim, right?
"I suggest that white folks looking for the brownstone dream abandon Bed Stuy and other Brooklyn neighborhoods that they have been invading in the past years. If you're so concerned on running Black folks out of town, why move into town in the first place"
Now there's a racist. Oops, sorry, he's black -can't call him that. he's a victim, right?
Only a racist would see the color of the skin of people moving into a neighborhood as the ultimate and defining reason to get upset at a city that is becoming less segregated- and about time too. Does this guy see all white people as being a negative influence? No city I have ever lived in is as segregated as NY, even if the barriers have started to come down a bit.
And one last thing..."Invading", how about "reclaiming" or "rescuing"?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 3:58 PM
Kim, I'm confused. You say that this block is "peaceful, clean and family oriented", then you say you will get mugged if you are out there at 2AM. Unless that happened to you, that statement is meaningless drivel. You say the pictures were doctored, but your evidence is that the people were messy. Big difference, there. And finally, you tout the sale of the house down the street as a better deal, apparently only because the owner is white. But if you are so smart, why don't you know when to use the possesive "their", as opposed to "there" - twice, so no typo excuse?" You must be pals with politically correct, my ass, who is so neighborhood savvy that he knows first hand that the corner sucks. Where does this first hand knowledge come from? Ignorance is certainly bliss.
Thank you, 3:32.
3:38 - don't help, ok?
There is nothing wrong, or racist in giving first hand knowledge about a house, neighborhood, whatever. With few exceptions, I haven't seen too much first hand knowledge here, just a lot of the usual. Another opportunity lost.
For the record, I am not familiar with this part of BS, although I know I've been driven through this block on several occassions. The house looks pretty good from the pictures, which is all anyone can say from pictures. I welcome some intelligent information.
Posted by: Brower Park at July 11, 2007 4:08 PM
you've all totally missed my point as I live in Ditmas Park and love my neighborhood, but as always you bleeding heart liberals hear the word race/ethnicity and your small little brains go haywire. the fact that 3:06 spoke his mind, right ot wrong, as always, elicited the usual knee-jerk reactions that seems to be the status quo for anyone who, GOD FORBID, implies that there are racial tensions in every city in America. And yes, I was assualted in Albany by a group of African-American kids shouting, "look at white boy run" and my wife was recently assualted in Ditmas Park last year. But to imply that race has anything to do with it is criminal, I know.
I still choose to live in my neighb and love the diveristy which is why I moved to Brooklyn after growing up in white-bread LI. But you bleed-hearts go ahead and spout your usual nonsense.
Posted by: 3:36 at July 11, 2007 4:11 PM
3:38, as a white person who has lived in BS for some time now, I can assure you that I am not trying to "run anybody out." And I hope you are not foolish enough to think that the insane trolls who post here represent the kind of folks who buy or want to buy in Bed-Stuy. Most of the newcomers I've met around here are just as hardworking and tolerant as the oldtimers.
Posted by: anonymous at July 11, 2007 4:11 PM
I'm interested to find out what people thing of improvement potential around this neighbourhood. The "J" train isn't exactly sexy but it is a pretty quick ride to the city. Does anyone see Broadway improving any time soon? I saw a condo conversation at Putnam/Broadway that was really nice and affordable. 1060 Putnam at aptsandlofts.com . what do you guys think of the potential for appreciation?
As for the bad neighborhood/black neighborhood contraversy I don't think we'll ever get over that one folks so I'm not even going to enter that ring today. Forgive me its Wednesday and I'm a little tired.
Posted by: TeTe at July 11, 2007 4:26 PM
So Mr. Brownstoner's vacationing in Berlin and his website has been hijacked by racists. Next time he leaves town perhaps he will do us all a favor and just shut this thing down. As someone who lives in a very sketchy part of Clinton Hill, I can say that there is a difference between feeling safe and feeling comfortable. Despite the claims by some to the contrary, violent crime is way down in NYC, and a urban city dweller here is far less likely to be a victim of a crime than say in Philadelphia, or DC. That said one can tire of the signs of malfeasance - drug dealers, their customers, prostitutes etc. From my experience bad corners don't change all that quickly. Which is not to say that you cna't have a lovely home and meet great neighbors, but there can be an edge which grates on the soul. But I am not sure how seriously I should take the comments of someone who needed a guard dog to walk through Prospect Heights (and yes I remember when that social worker was stabbed there). There are some people who are simply afraid of urban diversity.
And are there any nice coffee shops near this house...
Posted by: putnam-denizen at July 11, 2007 4:32 PM
3:58,
What do you suppose you are "reclaiming" and whom are you rescuing?" You are complaining about 3:38PM being a racist which he is. Look at yourself!!
The irony is that 3:38PM is probably reacting to arrogant people like you who think you'd be"rescuing" a neighborhood like BDS with your presence. P-L-E-A-S-E.
People like you turn turn the 3:38's of the hood sour.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 4:52 PM
please tell me that the comment about prospect heights July 11, 2007 3:06 PM was a joke.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 5:03 PM
I live on the block over from this and it looks very nice in the photos. The blocks of Decatur from Ralph to Howard to Saratoga are very nice IMO.
The immediate neighborhood does lack amenities, which i think is fairly reflected in the price. But you get a great brownstone in a beautiful neighborhood with great neighbors.
It's not too bad to walk or bike over to Lewis Ave, particularly on weekends.
You can get the C train on Ralph or (my preference) walk a few extra blocks to the express A at Utica. The JMZ on Broadway is also a short walk away.
Needless to say I think it is a great neighborhood for young buyers looking to get a home in Brownstone Brooklyn.
When my wife and I bought here, we heard a few naysayers on the area (from people who did not live or spend time here) but I did not want to be like so many people I hear who regret not buying in a neighborhood when they had the chance. "man if I had bought that brownstone in Fort Greene in '88 I'd be retired now, but I thought it was too expensive/too dangerous etc etc....."
It can be counter-productive to listen to the advise of others (particularly on a message board!) as everyone has different needs/priorities. To anyone thinking of Bed Stuy come and spend time here and see for yourself.
Posted by: Dave BS at July 11, 2007 5:13 PM
So funny to me. THose of you who fled your unaffordable communities like someone lit a fire under you tush, there are other options to living in Brooklyn. Try Bensonhurst or BayRidge or Borough Park. Dont feel comfortable in those communities?YOu should they are predominantly caucasian.
Posted by: sally at July 11, 2007 5:17 PM
Last time I checked I wasn't the one that started with the race thing. But the reality is that Urban Brooklyn has always been a residential haven for all minorities (especially Black folks) for many years. What might seem Ghetto, unsafe, and uncomfortable to White folks, seems just fine for us . Now you people (White) come into town and think you can buy in the midlle of the hood and complaint about the everything. We are being priced out of our Homes (brownstones) and History. I'm not a racist, just a REALIST!!!!!
Posted by: Anon 3:38 at July 11, 2007 5:17 PM
Race is boring but stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason: Stereotypical black neighborhoods are dirty and dangerous, Puerto Ricans are loud and dirty, Hasidics have bars on their windows, Italians vinyl side everything, Yuppies are obnoxious. It's choosing the less of the evils. Personally I live in a black neighborhood and the litter and garbage on the street is out of control. You definitely don't see that in white neighborhodds.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 5:18 PM
Ah, the Brower Park troll strikes again. As stupid as it sounds, the only post I wrote was the first one, at 4:08. All others, veritas and all, are from the troll imposter. I know no one cares but me, and I know this sounds SO stupid and juvenile, but there it is. Sometimes the truth is stupid and juvenile sounding.
I will not be posting again on this topic, or anywhere else today. I love Brownstoner, but the racial stuff here, and in the last couple of days, is just getting to be too much. Real life is hard enough. Honestly, can't we all just get along?
Posted by: Brower Park at July 11, 2007 5:19 PM
I do live at Clinton/Washington on C train stop and I used to live at Greene and Malcolm X so I know the neighborhood pretty well. To me almost all of Brooklyn that's not an hour into the city is ripe for development and or cleanup but there are pockets that seem stagnant and I wondered if this was one of them. When I lived on Greene it was ok but there was definetly a lot of corner action. That hasn't changed much in the two years I've not lived there from what I can see. But with Bushwick or East Williamsburg on the come up depending on who you ask I wonder if this part of BK might finally get some shine.
Posted by: TeTe at July 11, 2007 5:20 PM
My, how the anonymity of a blog lets us safely lose our civility and respect, allows us to vent our anger and indulge in those ugly feelings and thoughts we have for those that are other than we are.
Some of us are more disciplined and circumspect, some less so, but we all have some racist views, no matter how innocuous. We all subconsiously discriminate (differentiate) to categorize people and impose a sort of logic and structure to our surroundings. Visual attributes such as skin color are simply the easiest way for us to categorize. Correlations such as other=dangerous or black=poor lie along that slippery slope.
And we use our limited experiences and what we learn through others (media) to reinforce the stereotypes that are so convenient to making sense of the world, predicting how people will act, protecting us from harm. Lazy, perhaps, but human.
So has this profound insight helped me avoid my own bias (sounds better, doesn't it) when I, as a lily white man went to an open house in Crown Heights last weekend?
No. I imagined how uncomfortable I would be as perhaps the only white person on the block, perhaps a common experience for many non-whites in our society. I also squirmed at the notion of being yet another "gentrifier" displacing a proud, black family with my purchasing power.
As I left and decided against making an offer, I envied the sense of community, history, and pride I perceived, which I miss in Park Slope, where my neighbors walk by me without a word or smile. A sense of entitlement and priviledge ("got my $2 million brownstone, got too much to lose to trust you, which eye contact would imply").
Decisions, decisions. Want to live among "real" people not spoiled by success/inheritance and drowning in $$, want to feel like I am among people that would make me feel welcome, want to feel safe...
Dallas and Boston are way more segregated than NYC, by the way.
Not signing this time because this become way too confessional.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 5:29 PM
1:28-
Um, is it any MORE black over there east of Stuy Heights than it is IN Stuy Heights proper? I don't think so.
Would you have said the same thing if the line were:
"The only drawback we can see is that it's pretty far north into Greenpoint--several blocks beyond Williamsburg."
NO. I somehow doubt you would be screaming about the anti-polish prejudice.
The fact is, it's generally seen as simply less "desirable" and this is reflected in home sales prices in the area. It's further from most neighborhood businesses & amenities, further from the A express train (not to mention further from the economic centers of Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn), in an area with lower sale prices, outside the historic district, and in an area with about the same racial makeup as the Stuyvesant Heights section (ie: predominantly black).
Why is it someone on this board always cries "racist" when there's no call for it?
Need I go on?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 5:46 PM
It's crazy how, in a town that votes overwhelmingly toward the liberal agenda on every issue (thank god), an anonymous thread brings out so many right-wing nut-job rants. Most of them are just from trolls who love to irritate, I'm sure--a super cheap, easy way to get your adolescent rocks off, but awfully boring, if you ask me.
I think this looks like a beautiful and interesting house, and I think it's exciting as hell that Bed-Stuy is seeing such an influx of badly needed restoration-minded people. The two families I know who are doing it (one black, one white) are both professional 30-somethings but NOT lawyers or hedge-funders--just people with decent jobs. They're not invaders, they're not out to displace anybody, they are, like all of us, people who need a place to live that they can afford. And they're spending a helluva lot of time at building supply stores--just like the amazing couple that does the Bed-Stuy Reno Blog. There is nooooo shortage of housing in BS that needs TLC from people like this. Hostility toward these people is ridiculously misguided.
Posted by: chilllllll at July 11, 2007 5:55 PM
Re: the poster above who recommended Borough Park -- but I think that as somebody who is not an orthodox Jew, I would definitely not feel comfortable there!
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 5:55 PM
Jeez, so much for trying to take a short vacation! Our comment about being further east was nothing more than an allusion to the fact that, in general, property values decline the further out you get from Manhattan, Obviously, Stuyvesant Heights is an exception to this rule.
Posted by: Brownstoner at July 11, 2007 5:59 PM
Yeah, we know what you meant you racist son of a bitch.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 6:31 PM
anonymous 5:55, you wrote:
"Re: the poster above who recommended Borough Park -- but I think that as somebody who is not an orthodox Jew, I would definitely not feel comfortable there!"
Why? Worried about being assaulted in a drive-by nagging?
Posted by: bagel at July 11, 2007 6:51 PM
Remember when everyone was talking about how there were almost no black people at the post Clinton Hill house tour party at Ici? At the time I though it was much ado about nothing. Now I'm not so sure.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 7:22 PM
All we need now is for Beeotch to remind us of her marriage and we have a PPPARRRRTTTAAAYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously people, did Brooklyn move to Alabama or something. "Oh Noes! White people."
If this thread were about Blacks in Mill Basin, we'd all be cheering about "diversity". How is whites in Bed-Stuy not "diversity"?
Posted by: Common Sense at July 11, 2007 7:33 PM
Can anyone explain to me why real estate is the one thing that the free market doesn't reign?
I dont know about any of you, but if one person will pay me $1 for my apple and another will pay me $2, I sell the apple for $2.
Likewise, if I want the apple, I pay the $2 or find a cheaper apple.
Posted by: slick at July 11, 2007 8:26 PM
Please check out our new site shopbedstuy.com we created a business alliance in January consisting of about 40 businesses in Bed Stuy and I think we have a couple of the best coffee shops and restaurants in town. Common Grounds is having her grand opening on july 16th at 10:00am and Marty Markowitz will be there so it should be safe.
P.S. The site is still under construction but you will get the idea.
Posted by: bedstuyagent at July 11, 2007 8:49 PM
Wow I appreciate your efforts to promote businesses in the neighborhood but that site needs a LOT of work.
Perhaps you should hold off promoting it until you can consider it finished? First impressions count!
Posted by: Dave BS at July 11, 2007 9:39 PM
Here's what I don't get. Nobody is stealing these people's brownstones from them. They have been there for years and are making a pretty penny. Why is that bad?
Posted by: Anonymous at July 11, 2007 9:45 PM
Thanks Bedstuy agent for letting us know about the new site. Please ignore the negative feedback - you told us it was under construction, and I am sure you just let us know in a (seemingly futile) attempt to get this thread back on a less polemical and more informative track. I actually thought it was pretty nifty - but I don't hold myself out as a webamster - that's the beau's job. I stopped by Bushbaby recently for the first time and was very impressed by the place. I don't think that is anywhere near the property we are speaking about (some of us anyway). Even though I live right on the border of Bedstuy and Clinton Hill, I rarely walk that way. Fulton Street is far more vibrant in Bedstuy than in Clinton Hill.
Posted by: putnam-denizen at July 11, 2007 9:57 PM
I appreciate the comment 9:39pm, but it is still under construction and it was the most intelligent response I had to all the posts I am reading. Thanks for checking it out!
Posted by: bedstuyagent at July 11, 2007 9:59 PM
Brownstoner: don't you know you can't win, no matter what you say it will turn ugly. It's really getting pathetic. EVERYTHING turns into either a race issue or a "my neighborhood is better than yours" issue--boring!
Posted by: anon at July 11, 2007 10:42 PM
So sad, the toxic mixture of fear and mistrust on all sides. We moved to (an 80% or so black part of) Flatbush 20 years ago after demanding to be shown houses in "mixed" areas (we were white victims of vigorous racial steering, but couldn't afford anything "white"). To our relief and pleasure, we discovered that we would be allowed to nest, cuckoo-like, in a black middle-class neighborhood, and have never encountered a moment's animosity in the next two decades of being, as a rule, "the only white face on the street." The mugger and the purse-snatcher don't count; they weren't neighbors, just underclass predators who could just as easily have been trolling the Slope for a victim. An interesting variable is that our black neighbors are mostly Caribbean--and Caribbeans are generally held to have "less of a problem with white folks" (an impression borne out by my observations going all the way back to high school). So I can't speak to the Bed-Stuy issue. (Back when we were house-hunting, a black cop I "interviewed" in PLG bluntly informed me that a black Caribbean nabe would be fine for us, a native-born American black nabe, NOT. Never have known how much credence her statement should be given, then or now.) Frankly, my chief reason for not wanting to whiten up Bed-Stuy as a new homeowner would be along the lines of historic preservation--it seems peevish to want to dilute the character of such a historically black community. Sort of like wanting to move to Chinatown--one could, but in the midst of such intense and longstanding ethnic cohesion, one would have to be a very special sort of person to feel completely at home. The joy and blessing of our adventure was in the discovery that our sorry-assed poor white selves could be so open-heartedly accepted into a community based on no other "cred" but good will and hard work. And that's the news from "racially charged" Flatbush...
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at July 11, 2007 10:43 PM
Uhhhh....okay people, let's calm down. I love Bed-Stuy and yes I love it when I see that white folks are moving in why? because I feel that it will change the face of the neighborhood....DIVERSITY..
we can learn alot about each other neighborhoods that go throught this RACIAL DIVERSITY can be dynamic!!! now I see more white at my train station...KOSCIUSZKO J TRAIN more than I saw two years ago when i first bought my
house...To be honest yes Stuyvesant Heights is beautiful!!! but I love living ON Greene avenue off Patchen B/C it is a small nook of us on the block...at times I see the white hipster kids across the street and my fellow african-american, latino neighbors...the only people that I wish would leve already is section 8 recepients....but diversity is anout change!!! why can't we all just accept that??I love Brownstoner but you people are very shortsighted...
Posted by: Sarah at July 11, 2007 11:15 PM
As a neighborhood, Bed Stuy suffers from a lack of services. There are various reasons for that. But, as a result, you really need a car to live here. I wish there were better food delivery options (at first I thought no restaurants delivered, then I realized that most of them jsut aren't very good). I wish there were more corner stores that were open late (ish) that had something I wanted to buy and not just low-end junk food. I wish I could get fresh vegetables somewhere. And Asian condiments. Other than that, it's a perfectly fine place to live. I don't know why the services part of it seems to be in total stagnancy. Maybe because the better-off residents tend to frequent BJ's, Sam's Club, Walmart, Target, COstco and other big box stores in malls in Queens, far south Brooklyn and on LI. Maybe if they built a few of those around here, more interesting sutff would spring up as well. Although it hasn't seemed to work for Restoration Plaza.
Posted by: alexa11221 at July 11, 2007 11:27 PM
/\ Why is it okay to Darken Bay Ridge but not whiten Bed-Stuy?
Posted by: John in Brooklyn at July 12, 2007 8:46 AM
WALMART???!!!! Alexa....ssshhhh! No, we don't want those kind of stores in Bed Stuy. Better off residents, if I may speak for them, tend to frequent more boutique shop.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 12, 2007 8:54 AM
Brenda from Flatbush - your posts are always heartfelt and interesting. I just want to point out that the recent influx of higher-income people (who are both black and white) in Bed-Stuy is arguably helping to preserve the neighborhood's history and culture. And I'm not just talking about brownstone restoration - I'm talking about people who can afford to spend money at local, black-owned small businesses. Places that celebrate the community and/or black culture, like Brownstone Books and Bread-Stuy, are able to flourish partly as a result of the neighborhood's increasing income level. BS is right up there with Harlem as one of the most storied black neighborhoods in the country. I believe that anyone who moves in here, black, white, or purple, should be prepared to respect and honor that legacy. Change is happening here, and yes, some people will be displaced just like they have in every neighborhood in NYC. But white folks sticking to white enclaves is not going to stop that economic process; nor is it going to create the kind of society we all want to live in.
I should also note that personally I have not found a difference in the Caribbean vs. AA attitude towards white folks, at least not among our neighbors (who are both), but maybe when you moved into Flatbush years ago it was a different story.
Posted by: anonymous at July 12, 2007 10:27 AM
I'd love to have a Target at Restoration Plaza. Lord knows the one at Atlantic Center is going to be unreachable in a few years.
Posted by: anonymous at July 12, 2007 10:29 AM
Things take time Bedford Stuyvesant is not going to turn into Ft Greene and Park Slope overnight. Just a decade ago the heavy drug wars ended in BS. When I first moved to NYC ten years ago I moved to Ft. Greene and everyone was telling me to be careful. Now that I am buying in BS people are telling me the same thing… My old landlord in Ft Greene brought his home a brownstone on So. Elliot PL for $7,000 in 1971. He told me that he was one of the few whites on his block; his friends from Manhattan laughed at him and told him that he and his young family will get mugged and robbed. None of those things happened. He sold his home in FG last year for 2.1 million and moved to Maine where that money can stretch really far. In BS the many of the white people that are moving in are from other countries and have no guilt with blacks and vise versa. I have notice that the whites in BS are friendly less snobby compared to where I live now in Park Slope.
As a 30 something black male, BS dose have things about it I don’t like. I do have a problem with seeing healthy black men on the corner all day doing nothing music way too loud. But I saw the same things in FG 10 years ago and today most of that is gone. As downtown BK, FG, PH and PS become the new midtown Manhattan with crowed streets and tall buildings Bedford Stuyvesant and Crown Heights will be the new PS/FG. It makes perfect sense to invest Crown Heights and Bedford Stuyvesant. I am sure AY is just the first stage of devolvement that is going to happen along Atlantic Ave. I will not be surprise if the LIRR get buried in the next 20 years to make Atlantic Ave more desirable to build. For all the ignorant people that talk crazy about BS keep being stupid I just pray that you live another 10 years…
Posted by: Anonymous at July 12, 2007 10:37 AM
No they are not in federal jail… that is for rich white men…. The FG guys have all moved south Charlotte, Atlanta, Virginia Beach etc…
Posted by: Anonymous at July 12, 2007 10:49 AM
Anonymous 8:54 says:
"WALMART???!!!! Alexa....ssshhhh! No, we don't want those kind of stores in Bed Stuy."
Why?
8:54 says:
"Better off residents, if I may speak for them, tend to frequent more boutique shop."
That means no one cares about the prices of goods for less-well-off residents. Nice.
Posted by: thrifty shopper at July 12, 2007 11:04 AM
anon 11:47 says:
"No one on this board gives a rat's ass about the poor or people of color."
Does that mean the poor or people of color would support the arrival of WalMart in Brooklyn?
I hope so.
Posted by: thrifty shopper at July 12, 2007 12:19 PM
black people are murderers and drug dealers.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 12, 2007 12:24 PM
12:24 check this web site www.shopbedstuy.com, and your RE license should be revoked.
Posted by: bedstuyagent at July 12, 2007 12:28 PM
/\ Caring about people of color/poor means essentialy saying "this nabe belongs to you, no whitey/wealthy allowed", then no, I don't care.
Posted by: Common Sense at July 12, 2007 12:29 PM
Can we stop the hijacking of this thread as well by the racists? I am beginning to suspect that it is part of a concerted effort by some group (white supremecists or real estate agents) to wreck this site. Can we just not respond to them? And could the webmaster just delete them all (as the AY thread was deleted, thank you).
Posted by: putnam-denizen at July 12, 2007 2:12 PM
12:24...only black people are murderers and drug dealers huh? what an ignorant statement.the russian and italian mobs might beg to differ.hard as it might be too admit, white people deal drugs and commit murder also. hen i go to kmart in bay ridge and drive thru the hood and see the caucasian boys hanging on their corners, driving daddys car listening to rap music, trying to keep a beat, I have to laugh. like i said, bad apples in every bunch. get a clue.
Posted by: anon at July 12, 2007 2:18 PM
I just realized that it is July 12, 2007 and puked in my lap.
Posted by: Wade T at July 12, 2007 2:18 PM
/\ For the record, The guy who said Black people are all criminals is a piece of shit.
The reason I didn't respond to him is becuase in the year 2007, nothing really needed to be said.
That's common sense.
Posted by: Common Sense at July 12, 2007 2:50 PM
Well put Common Sense
Posted by: MMM at July 12, 2007 3:02 PM
/\ I didn't backpedal. In fact I'll say it again:
If caring about poor/blacks means saying Bed-stuy is only for those two groups, then no, I don't care.
Fuck you and you're race-baiting garbage.
Posted by: Common Sense at July 12, 2007 4:38 PM
Why is the racist guy really concerned about Bedford-Stuyvesant in all those black people that live there. If I was this person I was skip the black neighborhood posting all together. Racist guy must want to live in Bed-Stuy, what’s up. Why would this person care about what’s going on in our ghetto black neighborhood full of drug dealer and shootings every night? I mean really, we shoot people everyday over here. This guy should be happy with all the murders etc… At this rate all the blacks in this neighborhood will be gone by the end of summer. I think racist guy might even be black but like J E Hoover and Warren G. Harding can’t deal with it so he says stupid stuff every once in awhile...
Why is it that Bedford Stuyvesant always so popular on here it has more responses than Clinton, Ft. Green, Park Slope etc
Posted by: Anonymous at July 12, 2007 5:31 PM
Checked out the site for Bed Stuy and it's raw and the businesses don't seem to have web sites of their own, but thanks for the info and see you in two years.
Posted by: Anon at July 12, 2007 9:01 PM
Brenda,
I am an American of both African American and Carribean American descent. I find the complete opposite to true in my family. My family of African descent from South Carolina "have less of a problem with white folks" than my Carribean side. I have racists on both sides and very tolerant relatives on both sides. It has more to do with class and education than which stop our ancestors got off when ship left Africa! I have cousins on both sides who are successful professionals and those who are good for nothing.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 12, 2007 9:14 PM
Drop an r and add a b 9:14
Posted by: Anon at July 12, 2007 9:19 PM
9:19PM LMAO!!! There should be "spell check" on bloggers...LMAO
Posted by: anon at July 12, 2007 9:23 PM
What is LMAO?
Posted by: Anon at July 12, 2007 9:31 PM
Tough talk from another "Anonomyous" i see.
Posted by: Common Sense at July 12, 2007 9:52 PM
I don't hide who I am. I don't care if you think I'm racist. Honestly, Blacks like you is why there are negitive notions about them in the first place. All I know is I give people the straight deal. And I don't care how black or oppressed you (think) you are. My family was actively involved in the Warsaw uprising, so I know a thing or two about "oppression". I give people a fair shake. If NYC turned 99% black tomorrow, as long as the streets are clean, the jobs are coming and the city humming, I'm happy as a clam. same if it turned 99% white.
Wanna change the community? Volunteer your sorry ass at a boys and girls club. shop Black owned stores. sweep your part of the sidewalk. Do something.
Heh, bet you have a white girlfriend too. Sucka.
Posted by: Common Sense at July 12, 2007 10:52 PM
The significance is I'm being lectured (more like cursed at) about my loyalty to the "black community" and yet the above poster does absolutley nothing to remedy the situation himself.
And yes, there's more BM/WF couples than BF/WM couples for a reason. Kanye brought it up in one of his songs about how successful balck men abandon black women. Look at P Diddy and his children with Kim Porter. Now he dumped her for Sienna Miller. Sad.
Posted by: Common Sense at July 13, 2007 3:09 AM
Well all of us have a African great grandmother named Lucy
Posted by: Anonymous at July 13, 2007 9:06 AM
True. But actually, while "Lucy" had Black skin, she actually was caucasion. The people of Ethiopia (where she was found) have the same makeup and structure as Europeans/Asians and Arabs. Sub-Sharan Africans are the only true "African" race.
Posted by: Common Sense at July 13, 2007 9:33 AM
Please blcok common sense now. Exercise some editorial control over this blog please! And let the rest of us just ignore "it."
Posted by: putnam-denizen at July 13, 2007 9:51 AM
.....Until then, enjoy the show.
Posted by: Common Sense at July 13, 2007 10:27 AM
So am I a true African? I have naturally light brown hair and gray eyes but I classify myself as African American. Both my parent and all grand and great grandparents etc are all Black Americans going back to the 1600 (back then free people of color). Half of my family passed for white around the turn of the century moving to places like Maine, Wisconsin, and Vermont so they won’t run into blacks that knew them…. The whites “relatives” that I have met told me that they always thought there ancestors came from France and England 100 years ago but the reality is it was more like Virginia. I wonder if some of these people on here saying this nonsense are my cousins. I was read that some 20,000 blacks passed for white each year from 1865-1920. That’s over a million people came into this world black that died “white.” Many of you saying stupid things on here need to check you family records.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/
Posted by: Anonymous at July 13, 2007 11:01 AM
Common Sense isn't so common now is it?
Can you tell me what significance is it to mention what color someone's wife of girlfriend is? With respect to the location of a brownstone in brooklyn.
Common Sense... excercise some common sense and just keep your mouth shut.
You're fanning a flame that you don't even realize is more combustible than you think.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 13, 2007 12:13 PM
I guess I should begin by stating that I'm African-American and that I'm also a resident of Bedford-Stuyvesant.
I've read through all 100 posts of this thread and I've come to two conclusions:
A. There are a lot of racist people in so-called "ultra-liberal New York." Whether they want to face that fact that they're racist is something else entirely; it's been my experience that people don't mind being racist (or classist or sexist or homophobic) as long as they aren't labeled as such.
B. The palpable racism here doesn't alter the fact that the majority of what is being said is true. There is a certain class, a certain segment of the African-American community that seems hell-bent on destruction--self and otherwise. I see them every day: throwing litter onto the sidewalks and into the streets; blaring music out of their mighty expensive vehicles; standing on the corner of Stuyvesant Ave. and Decatur St. for no good reason; yelling, screaming and carrying on at all hours of the night; taking absolutely no pride in their community and having absolutely no shame in their seedy and illicit activities. In short, they behave like the savages that any decent person, regardless of race, would be intimidated by. I know that when I'm come out of the Utica Ave. train station and walk by them, they give me the same scorn they would to any white person. And I suppose they give me those scornful looks because the looks aren't about race, but about achievement: they haven't achieved anything, so they want to take achievement away from the people who have. To which I say: no, my brother. Sorry, but I cannot allow that.
The saddest part of this is that their parents worked very hard to keep the neighborhood safe, to give them beautiful homes to grow up in, and this is how that hard work is repaid. They're ungrateful and I think it's despicable and they are giving decent, hard-working black people, like myself and my family and my friends, a bad name.
If restoring order and beauty and respect to Bedford-Stuyvesant means moving the aforementioned element OUT and European-Americans IN, then I'm all for it. Sorry, I'm not going to let some misguided loyalty to race (and here, in this instance, I believe it IS misguided: if African-Americans in this country are oppressed, and I believe that we are--in ways more subtle, and therefore more insidious, than in antiquity--then when we must fight that oppression on solid ground; defending blacks who destroy their own neighborhoods, regardless of the impetus, conditions of poverty notwithstanding, JUST because "they're black too" is very, very shaky ground), destroy my investment in my home, in my community and in my fellow African-Americans who simply want to prosper, and who want to do so peacefully and respectfully. I just as eagerly want to invest in our common humanity, and I can't do that if the people I'm attempting to engage, regardless of race, creed, gender, sex, orientation or religion, are instead behaving like beasts. That goes for ignorant Christians, inhospitable Jews, and frightening young black men selling drugs on the corner.
Cordially,
Robert
Blogging Love and Polemics:
http://thisisthediaspora.blogspot.com/
Posted by: Robert Jones, Jr. at July 13, 2007 1:36 PM
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