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July 20, 2007

Checking in on Bushwick's 358 Grove Street

So what up with the development at 358 Grove in Bushwick? The 59-unit project has been on the market for more than three months and just 12 of the 39 units listed on Halstead are in contract so far (most of them are on the E line). Prices are under $500 a foot and the finishes look okay, so what's the deal? We'd love to hear from folks who've gone to check it out already. For those who haven't, there's a tripleshot of open houses tonight, tomorrow and Sunday.
358 Grove Street [Halstead] GMAP P*Shark
358 Grove Boldly Pushing Bushwick Boundaries [Curbed]

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I am not surprised that they haven't had much succes with the sales so far. This is Bushwick for god's sake and they are pricing the units like it was Prospect Hghts or Fort Greene.At these prices I don't know who would be stupid enough to move to Bushwick.

Posted by: anon at July 20, 2007 11:26 AM

Read the discussion on the Curbed post you linked to. This is way over-priced for the area and is built for a demographic that doesn't live anywhere nearby. $500/sqft is not cheap. You can get a house in Sunset Park (a much safer neighborhood) for less than $300/sqft.

Posted by: anon at July 20, 2007 11:28 AM

This neighborhood isn't that *dangerous* per se (I used to live three blocks from here -- this is basically Ridgewood), but it is very unpleasant -- rats and stray animals everywhere, basically no services, a grocery store that sells rotting meat and produce, a 25 minute ride into Manhattan, and an elevated train across the street. And Wyckoff Avenue is your best shopping bet, and it's sleaze-tacular at night.

Not to disparage the neighborhood entirely; I was fine with living here, but I was pretty damn poor too, and I never went out or did anything. It's definitely still the 1970s out here, and if you think more than a few chumps will pay $500/square foot to live in the 1970s... just leave the neighborhood to the residents and the handful of dedicated poor kids living in our garbagey tenement walk-ups, huh?

Posted by: Q.R. at July 20, 2007 11:37 AM

IT'S IN BUSHWICK FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know why it isn't selling.

Posted by: Jonz at July 20, 2007 11:38 AM

can anyone post a link to a penthouse floorplan? i'm dying to know what they look like... i agree the location is a problem, i was in that neighbourhood last night for a nice hipster dinner party. very safe, but very messy and unattractive... and a long train ride on weekends [though last night on the m train from the lowereast side it was less than a half an hour. the views are killer though....

Posted by: Anonymous at July 20, 2007 11:39 AM

I do agree that the units are over priced, but Bushwick is not such a bad neighborhood. There's a hardworking, family oriented community that takes pride in living in this neighborhood. Of course there's crime, but there's crime every where in Brooklyn. The commute to the city is very Ideal. I just think that you can get a solid house in this neighborhood for a better price then a condo.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 20, 2007 11:39 AM

Oh, I forgot; the house I lived in, a little ways up Grove Street sold (that's why I moved) for $450K in March -- it was a hundred-year-old two family with lots of attractive details (tin ceilings in every room, moldings, but vinyl siding), but wrecked by 95+ years of neglect. My Long Island slumlord had picked it up for $150K around 2003.

That said, in the hands of a good renovator, that could have been a great little house (I was a renter, I tried but, y'know), and for less than the price of a shitty condo down here by the El. These aren't a great buy compared to what's available.

Posted by: Q.R. at July 20, 2007 11:43 AM

Agree with you Q.R.- I think there are way better buys in the Neigh.

There are a lot of nice old Brick row houses that stretch from Putnam to Cooper- Wyckoff and Irving. I rather pay a little higher for a nice size 2 fam around there, then a condo.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 20, 2007 11:48 AM

Who want to live in a house in Bushwick? That is a worse idea. If I move to that neighborhood, I want to be in a building like this with security.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 20, 2007 12:53 PM

I think 30% sold in 3 months is not that bad. This project will do well, there may be price cuts if the developer wants to speed up sales but if not I think they will still get their price.

The Myrtle-Wyckoff station just got a full renovation and looks great, this is right around the corner. There are plenty of lofts/condos in the area that have sold at this price point so this is not an anomaly.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 20, 2007 1:04 PM

We didn't even have bars on our basement windows. The crime rate on this side of the neighborhood is only marginally higher than say, in Astoria or Carroll Gardens, as the statistics lay at the time.

Also, houses are enormously bigger. That $450K house I cited above was about 2700 square feet, plus a finished basement that was being illegally rented out.

I'm not advocating living here, but if you're gonna, why not do it the right way? The only *real* difference is the parking space, frankly. On the rare occasions I borrowed a car, parking was an f'ing nightmare.

Posted by: Q.R. at July 20, 2007 1:16 PM

Anon 1:04pm are you for real?

Posted by: anon at July 20, 2007 1:19 PM

Anon 1:04pm I guess that settles it. Having a renovated subway station around the corner eliminates the need for other ammenities and personal safety issues.

Posted by: anon at July 20, 2007 1:23 PM

Everyone (probably esp. Brownstoner himself since, as he has acknowledged, he is relatively new to Brooklyn) should read this article:

The Second Battle of Bushwick, by Tom Robbins, VIllage Voice, 6/26/07

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0726,robbins,77040,2.html

It's an old story -- poor and working class people being ruthlessly driven out through lack of maintenance, bribes, & threats. Here's an excerpt:

"Carmen Melendez, 52, is the last person standing in her home of 14 years at 81 Bleecker Street, just down the block from St. Barbara's. All the other tenants in the six-unit building were either evicted or have fled in recent months. She's tempted to go as well. "I put my heart and my hard-earned money into making this a home," she says. "But now I am tired. I don't know if I can do it anymore."

Her money is clearly hard-earned. Melendez is a maintenance worker at the Sixth Precinct in Greenwich Village. She spends her days scrubbing floors and cleaning up after the police and their clientele—a job that, at the end of the month, pays her $1,400 after taxes. She comes home to a building that hasn't seen any cleanup work in years. Paint on the entryway has long ago faded and chipped away; a thin front door hangs open and impotent. On the side of the building and above the rear yard, bricks are crumbling. A neighbor says that one fell recently, smashing a car windshield on the street. The holes in the brickwork are so large that sparrows and pigeons nest inside."

Posted by: SPer at July 20, 2007 1:57 PM

The listed owner of her building is an individual named Owen Morrison, but he's a phantom to anyone who needs him. He's stiffed the city for all the taxes he's owed since purchasing the building in July 2005, and has failed to make payments on a $400,000 mortgage, prompting his bank to file for foreclosure. The city lists 188 open violations against the building and is still looking for $45,000 in back payments for the emergency repairs it has made there, as well as another $60,000 in outstanding environmental fines. The only phone numbers that tenants could obtain for Morrison turned out to be disconnected.

Last winter, Melendez said that she and the remaining tenants went without heat for 11 days, as the temperature outside hovered around 15 degrees. She used the oven to keep warm and rose before dawn to heat enough water on the stove to bathe.

John Cordero, 32, was the last person evicted from the building. Cordero, who suffers from epilepsy, grew up in 81 Bleecker, sharing a $550-a-month ground-floor apartment with his parents, then a third-floor unit with his brother. The brother split in January, saying he couldn't take the cold anymore. Despite his disability, Cordero has held down a job at a food warehouse for the past 11 years, advancing to assistant manager. "God willing, I can work," he says. He worked in the building as well, patching the fallen ceilings in his own apartment and doing maintenance in the hallway.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This spring, a man named Godfrey Autiaobong came around. He said he was Morrison's manager and demanded thousands in back rent from Cordero. The tenant tried to take his case to Housing Court but, like more than 90 percent of the tenants who appear there, he wasn't represented by a lawyer. Cordero was evicted on April 12. He moved back in with his parents.

Posted by: SPer at July 20, 2007 2:10 PM

Care to learn a bit about Bushwick firsthand? Why not start with the the walking tour? Thanks Brownstoner!
http://www.brooklynhistory.org/visitor/calendar.html

Posted by: anon at July 20, 2007 2:28 PM

This is 1:04, yes, I am for real.

Go to the area and you will see what I mean. This new subway station is just one element of many improvements that are going on. More will follow.

And regarding the other sales, check out 101 Wyckoff, just down the street. Brownstoner had a post on it last year. http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2006/02/set_speed_condo_13.php

This was 18 months ago and these were selling in the $500/ft range and did very well.

Here's another article on Condos in Bushwick from just a couple of months back. The market is strong and I believe this project will do well.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04192007/realestate/wick_ed_cool_realestate_adam_bonislawski.htm

Posted by: Anonymous at July 20, 2007 3:09 PM

1:04 what ammenities are teher within a couple of block radius of this condo? Do they have restaurants, cafe, decent supermarkets, bars etc? Things that would draw the demographics that can pay those prices?

Posted by: anon at July 20, 2007 4:05 PM

I'm not saying that the amenities are all there yet but rather that improvements are being made and people are currently paying these prices in the area. If the neighborhood already had the amenities people would have to pay $100 more per sq ft.

The normal course of development/gentrification or whatever you want to call it is that buildings are built and sold for a price slightly below more established neighborhoods. This attracts new people and once they are there the market for the amenities is formed. New businesses must make it in the first few months or they will not last, the amenities never come first. But once the momentum starts it begins to snowball.

Currently the bars, cafes, etc. are starting to pop up 1-3 subway stops away. So for now it's a short train ride or short car service to those things that these new residents want. It's only a matter of time before some entrepreneur sees that there are all these people who want a bar or cafe or whatever but have to travel for it and then he or she opens one up.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 20, 2007 5:06 PM

Forgive a dumb question, please: Is Bushwick part of Bed-Stuy? I've seen lots of maps that lump this area into BS.

Posted by: anon at July 21, 2007 12:24 AM

No Anon 12:24. Bushwick is not part of Bed Sty. It is part of Bushwick.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 21, 2007 1:56 AM

It's a fine line between Bedstuy, Bushwick and Williamsburg...check the below pdf map and see for yourself these "supposedly" dividing zips, which not only divide neighborhoods and people, but indiscriminately appoint some magical*(*and yes its just that nothing more..pushed out of the Slope go East and superficially increase value because you can't go West..) value to the land and ammenities, allowing others to define who you are? Then watch that supposedly very defined acceptable "line" slowly begin to change; which for any reliable purpose, is in itself BS..

http://www.unhp.org/pdf/maps/zip_bk.pdf

Bedford Stuyvesant 11213, 11216, 11233, 11238
Bushwick - Williamsburg 11206, 11221, 11237

The line between Bushwick and williamsburg is no better, yet there's no current lacking of Pricey real estate across the etched in BW border..the same goes for BW and BS; you can find pricey mansions in Bedstuy for well over a million yet many of these areas are "iffy" at best. Where as Bushwick has a surprisingly safer feel/look throughout, but not so many pricey mansions..Williamsburg has the most interesting combination of price vs. safety and "old school" vs. trendy going on...

Ignore lines on a map and check the neighborhoods for yourself..Extremely different vibes, feeling, aura, what have you within every part of these haphazardly drawn lines.

So who was that brave soul who first moved into Williamsburg a few years back, only to have his RE value quintuple in a NY minute...that flat-broke guitarist with no other choice..And now that the "Big" city has pushed all but the very well-to-do out of any real affordable housing(less than $1m for a 1BR anyone..below this is affordable really?)

That said all this gentrification takes a toll on the older, everyday worker and "low-income" residents as -Sper 1:57 - pointed out..

Before any of us sit here and disparage an entire neighborhood we should probably remember that many hard working, well intentioned, under-paid teachers, fire-fighters, cab drivers, small business owners, students, police, "blue-collar" workers and overall decent Human Beings live there; good and bad. The same goes for those living on Central Park West, there will always be good and bad..the blanket difference; money...no matter on what side of the line you live.

Posted by: head hurts at July 21, 2007 4:00 AM

nicely said head hurts. there are many people who are not wall stret investment bankers who want a nice place to live and can't afford the brownstone areas.

when will bushwick get it's fair shake?

Posted by: anon at July 21, 2007 10:09 AM

Wow, that Voice article says it all.

Posted by: Heather M at July 21, 2007 4:30 PM

Also, how can they sell that kind of square footage as luxury by any definition? If you're going to build a crappy high-rise out in the middle of a slum, you might as well make the apartments more spacious than the railroad walk-throughs that surround it. 800 Square foot 2 bedrooms don't cut it.

Posted by: Heather M at July 21, 2007 4:38 PM

I went to see the units. The ceilings are low but the units are nice and seem somewhat removed from the Bushwick that we know. However, the bathrooms and kitchens are cheap and tasteless and lack any modern sleek appeal. I don't understand why they would skimp on kitchens and bath. They are such a huge selling point. I was interested in this project but the design was a deal breaker for me.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 22, 2007 2:57 PM

I saw the units with a customer who decided to be closer to Manhattan. IMHO the units are well priced and good value. Yes, maybe you can buy an old frame house psf for less in Sunset Park - but this is brand new construction with a sponsor to take care of anything, brand new appliances, an elevator, parking (okay, a parkng space added 10K or so to the pricetag), brand new everything. Not crappy broken tiled grunge that's going to take more $$$ or a ton of sweat equity to rehabilitate. And let's not forget that when you get to a narrow house most of the house ends up being stairs and hallways). Plus, Grove has nice views from the higher floors and the shared roofdeck. I agree the kitchens were not sleek but put in a new counter if you want or put in your own cabinet doors to make it your own. A LOT cheaper than entirely fixing up that "deal" of a falling apart leaky town house.

Posted by: A "gasp!" Realtor at July 22, 2007 3:58 PM

8 ft. ceilings = "luxury" condo!??

Posted by: pfa at July 22, 2007 7:44 PM

i went and snuck in during construction a few last month and they looked nice. I agree, the counter is really an eyesore, but aside from that it's what you'd expect from a new condo. The 2 trains is a plus in that area. With the L train horror on weekends, it will be useful to use the M instead.

Posted by: dan at July 23, 2007 11:00 AM

Simple story. A developer with dollar signs for eyes bit off more than the neighborhood can currently chew. I live in B'wick and I find those prices for that specific area to be a bit rediculous.

Plus as usual you have a bunch of knowitalls who don't know shit about Bushwick commenting on Bushwick. It is what it is, people. And you'll never know what it really is since you won't dare leave your 'safe' (read: already gentrified to submission) neighborhoods.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 23, 2007 11:54 AM

I agree with the previous poster.
I also live in Bushwick, and for all of the posters that are criticizing the neighborhood, they don't know shit, and probably should go back to Ohio. After the 70's "Bushwick" was always known as a terrible place. That is not the case anymore, it is an artists haven from the Suits in Manhattan. The Grove project is clearly overpriced, and not represented correctly in its advertising, however, it still is approx. 20mins from the city.

You are better off finding a 2 family brick house near the Halsey stop in the "L" train.

Posted by: Anon at July 23, 2007 2:58 PM

You are better off finding a 2 family brick house near the Halsey stop on the "L" train.

Posted by: Anon at July 23, 2007 2:59 PM

I grew up in Bushwick/Ridgewood and was part of the Italian/German flight cited in the Voice article. I own a building/business 8 blocks from 358 grove, so decided to take a look at the two penthouses. Garbage. Tiny rooms, horrible layouts, and the price was ridiculous. Not to mention the booming car stereos from the ghetto fabulous car detailing place right next door. The neighborhood still sucks, but is WAY better than it was when we "ran away". I'm there every day...I see what goes on...hopefully gentrification will start making it a worthwhile place to live. For now, I'll let others take the risk.

Posted by: Mike P at July 26, 2007 4:27 PM

I think people are affraid of buying there, but think it is onlyl 15 minutes away from Manhattan, if a lot of young people move there , this area could be next Willliamsburg, moreover there are a lot of polish people,but still a great deal of undesirables,
I think the place is beautiful, maybe a little bit price, but i will buy as an investment and to help change the area

Posted by: Monica at August 2, 2007 4:23 PM

well, i just went to see the place a couple of days ago, the apartments are great!!!! i just made an offering plan. i love it, its only 25 min to 14th st where i work. its a great investment if you know about buying property, this neighborhood is a buyers market. The place has 15 floors, 59 units, the rooftop has cabenas (kind of like little houses, really small) great for bbqs, dinner, and hangout place facing the empire state building, the condo also has a private parking lot at a great affordable price, the neighborhood will get better now that they are building tons of new houses, condos and coops, if you're smart youll buy now and it will be worth it in a few years...

Posted by: jro at August 7, 2007 12:11 PM

jro sounds like a sales agent from 358

Posted by: guest at August 15, 2007 5:47 PM

20 min to city??
I don't what you are smoking, but it take way more then 20 min to get to city from out here!

Posted by: guest at August 24, 2007 5:17 PM

JRO is obviously a sales agent for 358. He/She probably lives in a comfy location other than Bushwick. As I posted earlier, I'm eight blocks away(Wyckoff and Halsey) every day from 7am to 8pm, and nights on occasion. I see what goes on. Stop trying to portray Bushwick as anything but one of the last remaining ghettos in the local area. Yes, it has potential. Yes, it could be the next Williamsburg. As of now though, there will need to be a large influx of "desirables", if I may quote an earlier poster. The only real hope is for the displaced Polish immigrants from Greenpoint to settle further south of Forest Ave. in Ridgewood and slowly clean up the area. I've been in the area since I was born, and have seen it go from very nice to ghetto from 1980 to 1995. Let's hope it can return to its' former glory. I'm watching and waiting, cash in hand.

-Mike P

Posted by: guest at August 29, 2007 11:40 AM

I recently visited 358 grove street and would agree to most of what is written above.

Yes, it is costly for Bushwick, the bathrooms are terrible and the one bed rooms are tiny! the one beds in manhattan are larger! the price difference between the units., i.e from one bed to two bed is dramatic.

i also saw a unit which is on level with the patio on the second floor - i could not believe my eyes when i looked 20 feet further - some very poor kept houses are bordering the building.wouldent be surprised if they were running drugs from there!

there is potential in bushwick but the question is when will this potential be realized? in 5 years or 15 years? or never?

so now i ask you pro's - where do i find a condo for 270k - basically the best overall deal.

Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:00 PM

I went to the open house this past sunday. I saw every line A-E and I saw the 3 bedroom, 2 bath duplex on the 14th floor. The block that this building is located on is not very attractive. This is NOT Ridgewood. The block that separates Ridgewood from Bushwick is St. Nicholas and that is about 3 or 4 blocks up towards queens. This building is between Wyckoff and Myrtle. The apts are very small. I do agree that they are WAY over priced for what they are. It is $500 per square foot and it is defintely not worth it. I saw one of the closests in a two bedroom and it was cracking inside. If they come down on price a little more then I would put a bid in. Until then I will keep looking.

Posted by: tjalberda at April 1, 2008 9:42 AM

« Green Roof For a Park Slope Brownstone Baruch Singer Buys Himself Some Dumbo »

July 20, 2007

Checking in on Bushwick's 358 Grove Street

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