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July 13, 2007

200 Livingston Procida-ing Apace

The construction crew has really been jamming over at 200 Livingston Street! When we checked in back in mid-April only the ground-floor had been framed out. The photo above shows how far they've come in three months. According to a Brooklyn Eagle story last week, the 25-story tower is expected to top out any day now. The number of units has been a bit of a moving target. First it was 214, then 280 and now the Eagle article says 246. Whatever. The point is it's a lot of units.
Livingston/Schermerhorn Development Takes Shape [Brooklyn Eagle] GMAP
Development Watch: 189 Scherm aka 200 Livingston [Brownstoner]

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Comments

Will be interesting to see how retail mix changes both on and off Fulton St downtown when this and the other new bldgs on Schermerhorn become fully occupied (plus the Smith and 110 Liv and Belltell).
BTW - the ever so slow moving Smith has begun putting in windows.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 13, 2007 12:41 PM

I don't think the retail on Fulton is going to change at all. There was a study recently that the mall is one of the highest grossing retail spots in the city -- it's cheap, but very profitable. I don't think higher-end shops would have the customer-base to pay the high rents.

I'm also going to throw something out there that I'm sure will be jumped on as racist, though it's not intended as such; just an observation about class in Brooklyn. Anyway, have you noticed that the demographic at the movie theater on Court Street in Brooklyn Heights is very different than that of neighborhood residents? Why? Well, movie theaters that used to serve that group (in Fulton Mall, on Flatbush at 7th on the PS/PH border) have closed in the last 10 years, and the Court Street theater has good subway access and is close to Fulton Mall. Bit of a digression, but similarly, I don't think the retail mix on Fulton will change unless a competitor for that demographic opens up elsewhere in Brooklyn.

Posted by: anon at July 13, 2007 12:51 PM

To 12:51pm, notwithstanding the opportunity to go off on your need to start *ish about race, I don't think a movie theatre is really all that great of an indicator of what demographic will come out to buy from higher end shops. Just look at the theaters in TQ. I think it's safe to say that residents of that area are in higher income brackets then those that frequent the theatre. It's all about access as you yourself point out. If there's no movie theatre in your neighborhood you go to the one thats easieast for you to get to no matter who actually lives there.
As for the capacity for retail to go higher end, I really don't see why it wouldn't in an area where higher income folks are moving in all the time. I don't think condos like this one or any of the other new developments really speak to the Fulton Mall consumer. Restaurants other than the fast food variety are slowly making their way in, better retail is sure to follow. Probably not 5th Avenue, but similar to Union Square.

BTW the "not to sound racist" schtick doesn't automatically give you a pass for racist statements.

Posted by: TeTe at July 13, 2007 1:09 PM

have you noticed that the demographic for the Bam theater is different than the majority of the neighborhood residents? Just an observation.Not to sound racist or anything!

Posted by: sally at July 13, 2007 9:19 PM

I think that's sort of the point...the demographic of a cultural institution or community site (BAM or Fulton Mall) doesn't change quickly. BAM has served a different demographic than its surrounding neighborhood for decades. Just because wealthy people build condos on the streets around Fulton Mall doesn't mean that the retail is going to change. Nor should it.

Posted by: anon at July 14, 2007 12:51 AM

no, but some commercial has to serve immediate needs of nearby residents whereas before there were no real mass of nearby residents whatever the demograhic...maybe the side streets will cater to them.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 14, 2007 7:25 AM

Change is inevitable.

There's too much residential development that's in the works. Albee Square, Belltel, 110 Livingston, 200 Livingston, Oro, Schermerhorn, etc., are going to provide the critical mass required for retail/commercial change.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 14, 2007 8:13 AM

I disagree - I don't think there's enough residential development. We need and will get it, too.

TeTe, who made you the ultimate decider of who is and is not a racist?

Posted by: Anonymous at July 14, 2007 8:33 AM

"some commercial has to serve immediate needs"

This isn't necessarily true. When Walentas started turning Dumbo into a residential neighborhood, retail didn't move in. In order to make the area more appealing, Walentas gave bargain-basement rents to merchants to bring in commercial services.

There's no reason why services or high-end businesses would necessarily move into the side streets near Fulton. Who knows? Depends on the competing market (i.e., consumers along Fulton). Residents may just wind up walking to Montague.

Posted by: anon at July 14, 2007 10:11 AM

I think it was the other way around, anon 10:11.

Walentas gave bargain basement rents to very specific businesses (like the chocolate shop and bakery run by the famed Jacque Torres), cultural institutions, and artists in order to give the area cachet to attract more residential buyers and charge premium prices for his lofts.

I believe he could've rented out his spaces many times over but has constantly maintained that he doesn't want big retail chains like Starbucks or CVS in his buildings.

You wrote:

"There's no reason why services or high-end businesses would necessarily move into the side streets near Fulton."

Actually, there's EVERY reason high-end business will move into the Fulton area. Retail follows residential--shops and services have every incentive to open up where their client base is located.

Smith Street in Boerum Hill, 5th (and 7th) Ave in Park Slope, Bedford in Williamsburg--they've all followed the same pattern. A new demographic arrives, retail opens up to serve the new demographic, which in turn makes the area more desirable to that demographic.

I don't think the change is going to be swift, but the momentum is definitely there. I think anyone who's familiar with downtown Brooklyn will agree that it's changed more in the past year than it has in the past 20.

Posted by: BK123 at July 14, 2007 12:21 PM

I wanted to claify:

Once there was some residential presence in DUMBO, there would've been little problem renting out retail fronts.

However, as noted, Walentas targeted very specific businesses to give DUMBO a high end character (whether or not he was successful is open to debate). Those are the businesses he gave discounts to.

It's not like he discounted rents across the board because he couldn't fill retail spaces.

Posted by: BK123 at July 14, 2007 12:33 PM

BK123, what you're missing is that retail in Fulton is currently thriving. It's not like there are empty store-fronts or struggling businesses. Fulton Mall has some of the highest rents and profits in Brooklyn. It's not like Smith Street was, and unless the developers pull a Walentas in order to bring higher-end services to the neighborhood, there's little reason to think that the type of retail will change. Those crappy mall stores are raking it in hand-over-fist...making way more than a Jacques Torres or Peas and Pickles would in that location.

Posted by: anon at July 14, 2007 12:41 PM

There might be residential development but who is it geared to? There isnt enough affordable housing.

Posted by: anon at July 14, 2007 2:05 PM

There might be residential development but who is it geared to? There isnt enough affordable housing.

Posted by: anon at July 14, 2007 2:05 PM

Anon 12:41,

It's true that Fulton Street is thriving in it's current incarnation, but how much longer do you think the discount stores will be around? Developers and the powers-that-be (Joe Chan and co, Laboz, Muss, etc) are doing everything they can to ensure the that current mix of retail doesn't stick around much longer.

For example, all the businesses located in the discount mall at the western end of Fulton Mall (Albee) are getting cleared out as we speak. The mall is getting demolished and replaced by 600 pricey rentals and office space. They're adding more retail space on the ground, but I'd expect an Urban Outfitters over a Payless Shoe Source--especially since developer is hoping to rent out the vast majority of the apartments at market rate.

United American Land is currently evicting the small businesses on Willoughby that cater to the current shoppers to build a 30 story, 600,000 sf tower of "high-end residential and retail"--the developers aren't asking the small discount businesses back to fill the retail.

Many more are being cleared across from the Belltel lofts for a 27 story Sheraton Hotel (not to mention the city funded Willoughby Square park).

Joshua Muss is building a plaza and 50,000 square feet of retail at the eastern end of the Fulton Mall. His stated goal is to add high-end retail that will appeal to his Marriott Hotel clients (and nearby brownstone nabes). It's probably not going to be a gold tooth cap store.

Laboz, the chairman of the Fulton Street Mall Improvement Association, has stated many times that Fulton Mall is "under-utilized" and that he'd like to see it become like 34th Street in Manhattan. I suppose many people say that, but Laboz also happens to be one of the Fulton Mall's biggest landlords.

It's common knowledge (and has been noted in the press) that he's been pushing out many long time businesses--like Diamond Girl, a discount clothier--by hiking rents and not renewing leases.

It's unlikely he's emptying out Diamond Girl and it's ilk to put in more discount shops.

The list goes on and on an on.

So maybe it's not completely organic change, but the developers are, in a sense, "pulling a Walentas". (Incidentally, Walentas is offering 10 years of free rent on a performance space at 110 Livingston to a theater/arts group.)

And it's not like there's a lack demand or a client base for higher end retail in the area. The average income for households that live within a 5 minute walking distance of Fulton Mall is $126,000. Within 10 minutes is $107,000.

Take into account that there are 15,000 pricey new apartments going up within walking distance to the Mall and 1200 hotel rooms--and well, you get my drift

I wouldn't bet against the change.

Posted by: BK123 at July 14, 2007 2:39 PM

To July 14, 8:33am
I did not imply that i decide who's racist and who's not, I just find the various takes of "i'm not a racist but..." annoying. As I think you will see if you read all of my post I did not try to dwell on it but I admit I did have the urge to address it a *tiny* bit.

Posted by: TeTe at July 16, 2007 10:21 AM

By this time next year, Fulton will be one long row of Chase Banks.

Posted by: a.v. at July 16, 2007 12:25 PM

a.v., so you mean Fulton will look just like most of Manhattan?

Banks suck, but I bet most of the people moving in to the (expensive) condo probably prefer Chase Banks to cellular/pawn/gold chain stores.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 16, 2007 2:24 PM