House of the Day: 408 Stuyvesant Avenue Revisited

At the rate bed-stuy sub-prime market is collapsing I'd say a lot of potential buyers are going to sit this one out as they peruse the news that came out today and will come out over the next few weeks.

Buying the nicest house on the worst street is not nearly as satisfying as buying the worst house on the best street.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 1:41 PM

a very old axiom. Just look at the high number of foreclosures in Manhattan this week alone. Not just the subprime market
is effected. Just as the third world has its three tier economy, so do we.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 1:57 PM

Couldn't agree with Denny more...

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 2:15 PM

I'm also with Denny. By the way, the Corcoran site has it listed at $1.79, so looks like it was already cut again. This is just too much of a headache for the price.

On another note - did anyone go look at the House of the Day in Prospect Park South that was listed at $1.69 this weekend? I am a little in love with it based on the pictures and walking by and wondered if it really is nice inside. I think the link said they would be starting to show it yesterday.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 2:20 PM

Agree with Denny, probably $1.2. Nothing has gotten that price in the area.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 2:40 PM

"I think the link said they would be starting to show it yesterday."

Yeah inside it is as the pictures describe, with a slightly awkward "billiard room" (not shown). If I had to nitpick I'd say the kitchen isn't going to please anyone who peruses new kitchen design magazines, the backyard is very small compared to the grandeur of the house, the porch is not wraparound, the small wooden single garage is also making no concessions to modernity.

On the other hand the restoration has been done with obsession for authenticity, to a fault, almost. The third floor is just as real and usable as the second. A lot of rooms!

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 4:02 PM

$1.2M will not happen. That's just a pipe dream. This is Stuyvesant Heights and the house is one of the best homes on "Mansion Row". I think it should sell and will sell, given COO and holdover tenant issues for no more than $1.4M. The sister mansion to the right, 404 Stuyvesant Avenue is also on the market and it's a legitimate two family that will be delivered vacant. 404 is a wonderful property. That property is listed for $1.6M and is not being marketed correctly by small time Fort Greene broker L. Nelson & Associates (not even advertised in the NY Times). From what I understand, they've received bids as high at $1.4M and the seller is wiling to lose it at $1.5M but beyond that no one is budging.

There seems to be some healthy turnover on "Mansion Row" as old time residents look to capitalize on present real estate prices and perspective buyers speculate on the continued improvement of one of the truly beautiful sections of Bed-Stuy. 416 Stuyvesant Ave exchange hands last June for $1.175M but despite a beautiful and very expensive renovation job that house is nowhere the size and caliber of 404 and 408 Stuyvesant Ave. Further, 391 Stuyvesant was purchased in an estate sale last January for $975k and I hear that the owner, who is using it as a single family, is putting north of $750K into that property.

More importantly, 393 Stuyvesant is currently on the market as the owner is quickly approaching foreclosure, e.g., has about 15 days left. Brownstoner, you should check this one out. There's a "for sale" sign with phone number in the window and the owner said that he would move it at $800K though I suspect that he will take $50K-$75K less. I think that this represents a good arbitrage opportunity as this property is in the same condition of 391 Stuyvesant when purchased and can be probably be fetched for $200k less.

For those who are not familiar with Stuyvesant Avenue, you must go out to see if for yourself. It's truly beautiful. Not just this block but the entire historic district of Stuyvesant Heights. Well kept homes on quintessential tree lined brownstone blocks. Almost every home has a lit lamppost which makes the entire area look at night as if it was cut out of a movie. Throughout the historic district you'll find ornately decorated flower baskets on the sidewalks on iron pedestals and maintained wonderfully by neighboring property owners. This a well established and stable section of Bed-Stuy. I'm also encouraged by the fact that the area is attracting well heeled buyers who are investing no insignificant sum to restore these fabulous homes to their former glory.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 4:08 PM

3:59PM, what a crock of shit! You don't know what the heck you are talking about. I live on highly regarded Bainbridge between Stuyvesant Avenue and Malcolm X. Gun fights? Are you kidding me? Not over here! There are no public housing projects in Stuyvesant Heights and I haven't heard a single gun shot in my five years of living on this street. The large and notorious public housing facilities (Marcy and Tompkins) that are riddled with drugs and crime are located on the Bushwick border, more than a mile away. This is one of the safest, cleanest and most stable sections of Bed-Stuy. You my friend sound like a complete and utter idiot. You have no credibility to speak of.

One piece of advice, know a neighborhood before you try to open your big fat mouth and make disparaging remarks. If I had to guess, you're probably someone looking to buy in the area but don't have the money to pay fair market value so you seek to play on peoples fears in the fleeting hope of holding prices lower. Get a life...

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 4:24 PM

Thanks 4:02. I wish I was still in the market.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 5:21 PM

Clinton Hill, not "Hills", and what's with capitalizing certain words like "Values", "Details, "Brownstones", "Architectural"?

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 5:21 PM

inflated? what did the poster state that was inflated? the area is flat out gorgeous. go to stuy heights yourself. right now. i challenge you say that the beauty of stuy heights is inflated.

5:32PM, unless, you live on bainbridge and have personally witnessed "gang gunfights" then how can you have the audacity to say that the poster at 4:24PM is misrepresenting his or her neighborhood. the poster lives in the immediate area and disputes the accusation that the area is dangerous and full of "gang gunfights". i know the area of stuy heights quite well and it's not perfect but is as safe as the best parts of fort greene, clinton hill or prospect heights. that my friend is not misinformation, it's a fact.

"i don't like the idea of a tiny little enclave of nice surrounded by (as we saw in an earlier article) high crime area with some of the most horrific projects in the u.s. less than a mile away."

i'm sorry but you just wiped out 95% of all of brownstone brooklyn which has some of the most notorious housing projects in the city interwoven throughout its various neighborhoods, e.g., carroll gardens and boerum hill (wykoff and gownus houses), dumbo and vinegar hill (farragut houses), fort greene (ingersol and whitman houses, clinton hill (lafayette houses), bed-stuy (marcy and tomkins), and plg (ebbet).

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 5:59 PM

5:32, you said it yourself: "To each his/her own". There are people, myself included, who do find this area to be a picture of perfection. It makes me go all fuzzy inside walking around here. It's not false information. It's our opinions. Just like Park Slope is perfect for some and boring for others, Stuy Heights is not for everyone. Maybe that's a good thing.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 6:05 PM

5:32 states: "stuyvesant heights is gorgeous, the homes are beautiful, but it's certainly not for everyone."

Ahhhhhh....duh!!! Thanks for stating the obvious. Way to be valued added!

Pathetic.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 6:09 PM

Anon 5:21: As long as you got the point!
I didn't think this was an english class......

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 6:09 PM

Yes, 5:32PM, can you please tell me what Brooklyn neighborhood is indeed for "everyone"?

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 6:13 PM

The Brevoort Houses, a large public housing project, are two blocks from this brownstone.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 6:55 PM

"a steady trickle" and that's suits us just fine. that's just the way we like. slow and steady. it's called organic growth. if the area doesn't suite your taste, then go live someplace else. no one is twisting your arm to live in bed-stuy.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 8:56 PM

Amen 9:24. People seem to want to rewrite history. It's only very, very, very recently that Ft. Greene has been considered "blue chip" (if that's what it's considered now). Clinton Hill even more recently. Sometimes it seems like so many people just "discovered" Brooklyn last year.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 9:34 PM

I don't get some of the posters on this blogsite. If people choose to spend their hard earned money and live in an area that is slightly more dangerous than other areas in brownstone Brooklyn simply because they like the homes or feel that they can get more bang for their buck there, what difference does it make to anyone else? I seriously do not get the condemnation and overblown hysteria on this board with respect to great communities like Bed-Stuy, Crown Heights North, PLG and Clinton Hill. Six years ago Fort Greene would've been on this list too. But if you spend any time on Dekalb Avenue at Chez Osker, you will see people who live in the neighboring public housing complex strolling throughout Fort Greene like anyone else. All of the neighborhoods east of Flatbush Avenue are predominantly black and have some serious social and economic issues. Nonetheless, these nabes are being integrated/gentrified. Some of the poorest of the poor live in these housing projects but for the most part we've been able to coexist. Why should Bed-Stuy be treated or looked at any differently. I don't get it.

I bought brownstones in both Fort Greene and Clinton Hill at a time when both nabes were considered undesirable and dangerous by many of my white friends. And quite frankly, I couldn't care less what they thought of me or where my home was located. At least I owned and wasn't renting, like 100% of them were doing at the time. Now I'm sitting on over $4M dollars of equity and both of my properties which are multi-families are being paid for by my tenants. Recently I've purchased homes in Bed-Stuy because that is where the value is (Crown Heights North being the other). Why do some people on this board seek to knock down nabes where other people choose to make their homes or their living? What difference does it make to you? Is there an opportunity cost that I'm not aware of?

All I can say to anyone looking to live in Bed-Stuy is that they should do their research. However, I would say the same thing to anyone looking to buy in Park Slope or anywhere else. Bed-Stuy is the largest neighborhood in New York City. It's the size of Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope, Carroll Gardens, Boerum Hill and Cobble Hill combined. The same way that there are differences and variations in these nabes there are differences in Bed-Stuy too. I would agree with the above poster that there are sections of Bed-Stuy (e.g., Stuy Heights and Bedford Heights) that are as safe as the best areas of Fort Greene and Clinton Hill.

In terms of proximity to housing projects, as someone already stated, there are a slew of housing projects in brownstone Brooklyn and none of them have had any significant adverse impact on the surrounding brownstone communities. In the case of Bed-Stuy the notorious and dangerous March, Sumner and Tomkins projects are located on the other side of the Bed-Stuy on the Bushwick/Bed-Stuy border. IMHO, unless your townhouse is located smack dead in the middle of a public housing complex (very unlikely) most people, with the probably exception of those homes that sit directly across the street, have nothing to worry about. The Pfizer mansion on Washington Avenue just went into contract for $3.2M and it's located two blocks from the Lafayette Houses on Classon. There are homes surrounding Fort Greene Park that fetch north of $3M and are located one or two blocks away from Ingersol and Whitman. Despite continuous reports of drugs and shootings at the Gowanus and Wykoff houses, property values in neighboring Boerum Hill and Carroll Gardens continue to soar.

Yes, there is crime everywhere in NYC and yes, some neighborhoods are more dangerous then others -- the market obviously reflects this fact. Yes, Bed-Stuy is not for "everyone" but no neighborhood is. Don't like it? Don't live there. Period.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 9:45 PM

The Brevoort Houses are located at 292 Ralph Avenue, Brooklyn, NY 11233 on the eastern Bed-Stuy/Ocean Hill border. First, this development is not located in Stuyvesant Heights and I can see why someone living in Stuy Heights proper would dismiss it as not being in the neighborhood as it is on the periphery and is a self-contained complex of buildings much closer to Fulton and Atlantic Avenue. Are residents of Park Slope adversely affected by the Gowanus and Wykoff projects on the other side of 4th Avenue? I think not. Second, it's not a huge and dangerous housing project along the lines of Marcy, Sumner, Tomkins, Ingersol and Whitman. In all my years in the neighborhood, I've never heard anyone complain about how unbearable life in Stuyvesant Heights is due to the Brevoort Houses. It's simply not an issue. Lastly, the poster asserts that the Stuyvesant Heights is surrounded by projects which is a blantant lie.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 10:09 PM

Thanks BP. I'm still around. Always reading but hardly ever posting. If I do, it's under anonymous. I call it the "CHP Effect"! LOL! I hope all is well with you. Congrats on CHN! Awesome job! I'll be sure to make the HT this fall. All the best! Peace.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 18, 2007 10:39 PM

I agree with 4:24... 3:59 is full of shit.

If you want gunshots, my old neighborhood (Manhattan Ave @ Broadway) was the place, but I don't hear them any more in Stuy Heights.

And the argument that the projects are close is ridiculous. People, THIS IS NEW YORK... there are projects everywhere. There are some projects right on Ft. Greene park and how about the view from the Maritime Hotel in Chelsea? Not to mention the entire Lower East Side is peppered with projects.

Just look at this OASIS map:
http://tinyurl.com/2tsd2x
the pink is NYCHA.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2007 8:36 AM

9:45, I have a theory on that. People who spent the big bucks in "good" neighborhoods want to justify their purchase. I mean, they're spending 2,3,4x as much on their homes and they don't want to hear that others made wiser decisions. Also, I'm sure they want their home values to remain high and if ALL of Brooklyn desirable, that's less buyers for the tony hoods.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2007 8:37 AM

how come this thread hasn't dissolved into race-baiting? whats going on?

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2007 8:47 AM

Projects aren't the only factor in the quality of life of a neighborhood.

And it speaks volumes about the state of race issues in the city when a neighborhood like Greenpoint (no direct transportation, mostly chintzy wood frame houses with vinyl siding, extremely toxic, etc.) is more highly valued than a solidly middle class black neighborhood rich with architectural/historical value.

A neighborhood with million dollar houses is "bad" or "low income". It's not like "low income" people can afford a $4000/month mortgage. And while some crimes are higher here than many neighborhoods, we don't have as many grand larcenies as Brooklyn Heights or Park Slope, not to mention the unreported crime that goes on in those neighborhoods (ie: drunken fights and racial harassment involving the locals in places like Greenpoint, etc).

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2007 9:01 AM

9.01 - Greenpoint murder rate: 0

And most people would rather put up with alcoholic bums than gun-toting dealers of other drugs.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2007 11:23 AM

Walnut Grove MN had 0 murders in the last decade but I don’t see you moving there 11:23….

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2007 12:58 PM

Its not within 25 mins od midtown is it

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2007 3:16 PM

The Brevoort Houses is a very low rise public housing community that is extremely hard to pinpoint as a "HOUSING PROJECT" because it not your typically red brick 24 story complex. It's relatively small. Buildings are roughly 6 stories high and pretty discreet and under the radar. As one poster stated correctly, it's on the periphery of Stuy Heights and is a self-contained complex (e.g., own shopping and laundry facilities, etc). Unless, you have relatives or friends living there, there is absolutely no reason why you would be aware that it's even there? It can't be seen from anywhere but from directly across the street. I'm in Stuy Heights proper and I had to walk seven blocks just to verify it's existence. I never knew it was there! LOL!

More importantly, I love this community immensely and have never had a problem living within it. Now that I've discovered Brevoort Houses (ala Columbus), should I be shaking in my boots and perhaps looking to sell? Surely I jest! LOL!

Come on folks! This is NYC! Housing projects exist everywhere. Take the stick out of your ass and live a little bit!

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2007 3:21 PM

"Take the stick out of your ass and live a little bit!"

You rock my world, 3:21. See....this is the difference between Bed Stuy people and Park Slope people. Thank you for being you!

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2007 4:21 PM

I have to agree with 3:21. Brevoot Houses in terms of scale is probably the best public housing in
New York City. It dose not look out of scale like many other public housing. Relatively unknown area
to most people in Stuyvesant Heights. This is New York City some people on here think this is Westchester County. To tell you the truth the people who live in public housing are
not the ones you need to be scared of... It's the visitors..
You can always buy that funny looking house on Garfield for sale for double
the price if Stuyvesant Heights is to "ghetto" for you....

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2007 4:31 PM

8:40AM Writes: "I teach in the area... You're forgetting (or neglecting to mention) the Brevoort Houses (a few blocks away), the projects right next to the deli/west indian place on the corner of malcolm x and fulton, as well as the Smurf projects (on the corner of Utica and Fulton). That might be a nickname the kids give them, I'm not sure. Ok so it may not be considered Stuyvesant Heights but it's damn close to that area."

Thus the problem with the NYC public school system: some teachers are just plain stupid.

First, what is your definition of a "housing project"? Are you going by some standard definition that is universally understood and accepted or going by some personal definition that is laced with your own prejudices, biases and/or self-hatred? Second, the buildings that you refer to with the exception of the Brevoort Houses, are not public housing projects. They are stand alone buildings that house black families in a black neighborhood. Housing projects are run by the NYC Housing Authority. You can go to their website and view a list of every public housing complex in NYC. As you can plainly see, the vast majority of public housing projects are located in northern Bed-Stuy and not anywhere near the prime brownstone areas of Bedford and Stuyvesant Heights. Brevoort is one of the few exception and it's relatively small and unproblematic to the surrounding community.

Teachers often tell their students to think before they speak or write. Try taking your own advice for a change.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2007 10:18 PM

Nice try, 11:09/11:12. People are just responding to uneducated and uninformed generalizations. I don't know anyone who lives here who feels they have to "try really hard to sell Bed-Stuy." I know I was sold the first time I walked around the neighborhood.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 20, 2007 9:04 AM

Same here I was sold when I walked around the neighbrhood also. the people are really friendly and speak to you when you pass them. The area reminds me of the south in a lot of ways. I have notice that people in the area when talking to each ask each other about family life etc and seem genuinely interested.
I have no problems with Park Slope I live there now but I am selling my duplex to get a house in Stuyvesant Heights. I will miss some of the amenities of Park Slope like the gym and the wing wagon lol. I have notice new places opening up all around Bedford Stuyvesant and with the recent rezoning of Fulton Street I am sure that street will change like 5th Ave in PS.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 20, 2007 9:53 AM