« Clinton Hill House Tour Wrap Residential Sales in Brooklyn »

May 7, 2007

Watch Out for Falling Objects

We walked out of our house on Sunday morning to find this sight in front of our (all too-close-for-comfort) neighbor's house. As the photo on the jump shows, a huge chunk of brownstone had fallen off the exterior of a second floor window and crashed on the stoop and sidewalk below. While a little chilling given what could have happened had someone been walking by or entering the building at the time, this incident isn't too surprising given what kind of shape the landlord keeps the 8-family house in. (You should see the backyard.) This got us thinking about what recourse one has to force a neighbor to fix a hazardous condition like this. In this case, you're talking about making the guy cough up $50,000-$60,000 for a new brownstone facade. Anyone know?

Trackback Pings

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.brownstoner.com/mte/mt-tb.cgi/1113

Comments

Call 311 ?

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 9:54 AM

But if you call 311, can DOB just force this landlord to go out of pocket to fix the facade? what if he says he doesn't have the money?

Posted by: Brownstoner at May 7, 2007 9:58 AM

There is a new law pending in the City Council called the Safe Homes Act that would allow HPD to make repairs (for truly dangerous things like your neighbor) if the landlord did not. The landlord would be liable for the cost of the repairs and get fined. The bill isn't passed yet, thought.

I think Tish James is a sponsor of this legislation. I bet her office might be able to give you some good advice on what to do.

Posted by: tinarina at May 7, 2007 10:07 AM

Stoner, stoner, stoner......
Do you know how much the owner would have to pay if the masonry clobbered someone? whatever the costs of the repairs, it is negligible in comparison to what it would cost if someone was hurt. Also think about the pain and suffering of the victim. Oy!
The first thing he should do, I mean this afternoon, is to get a sidewalk bridge put up to protect the residents and the passerbys while he gets a contractor and the necessary permits from landmarks. He should thank his lucky stars and get on with the repairs asap.
It is the only responsible course of action and the only way to protect his investment, which I am sure is sizable. This is a no brainer.

Posted by: Serge at May 7, 2007 10:09 AM

Where is the hazard? Sure the window area is in bad shape, however why would this be a 50-60k job? The rest of the facade looks to be in decent shape. He could use new windows though..

The DOB will require the homeowner to repair any hazardous condition. However, he is not compelled to restore the detail. If he really wanted to, the homeowner could knock off the rest of the crumbling window frame, leaving with facade without any detail at all.

Beware of unintended consequences..

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 10:11 AM

If the facade is spalling off big chunks the DoB could make them install a rented sidewalk shed which while safe will be a pain in the ass to live next door to. If he's given a violation he will have a time frame to certify repairs or face a fine. If they don't have the money expect a quick fix in the troubled areas like some fast stucco job.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 10:12 AM

This is a landmarked block so he would have to repair it correctly. And the rest of the facade is not in decent shape. Many of the windows are like this.

Posted by: Brownstoner at May 7, 2007 10:13 AM

As these things go, this is a pretty bad failure. there is absolutely no reason to think that the rest of the facade is A-OK if something like this happens. How many millions of dollars is this property worth? Is it not worth 60-80 thousand to restore the facade? How much do fancy new kitchens cost?
And another thing, he most certainly will need to restore the details if he is in the Clinton Hill Historic District. Every bit of it.

Posted by: Serge at May 7, 2007 10:15 AM

You have to call 311 and they will send an inspector out. You could also call the inspector at 718 802 3685 and they will tell you what the rules are.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 10:17 AM

Stoner,
I'm sorry to be posting repeatedly, but this condition, the more I look at the photo, looks very dangerous. The whole projecting lintel portion looks like it is being held up by the window frame. The lintel assembly needs to be taken down immediately. If it falls it may go through the sidewalk shed as these pieces of stone weigh hundreds of pounds. This is a real emergency.

Posted by: Serge at May 7, 2007 10:23 AM

landmark sucks, its a unfair burden to poor people.

what if he wants to fix it a different way.

Posted by: armchair_warrior at May 7, 2007 10:42 AM

By definition a poor person would not own a two or three million dollar building. That elevates them instantly into the realm of the bourgeoisie, whether they like it or not.
With valuable property comes financial equity, which means borrowing power, which translates to wealth and responsibility. That's life.

Posted by: Serge at May 7, 2007 10:54 AM

Landmarking is an advanced technique in the decades-old art of gentri-fu.

Posted by: Jeremy at May 7, 2007 11:08 AM

alot of poor people have live in the area before these areas become gentrified.

alot of them dont have the means to fix it, the way landmarks would have them fix.

its just another way of rich white folks forcing out minorities.

Posted by: armchair_warrior at May 7, 2007 11:14 AM

That is such a weird and negative way of looking at increased property values.
If a family of limited income finds themselves suddernly the owners of a multi-million dollar house, is that a bad thing? They can sell and live the dolce vita, or they could get a reverse mortgage and live the dolce vita, there is no downside to owning a valuable asset. It beats not owning it.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 11:22 AM

The Landmarks Conservancy offers grants and low interest loans for facade repair in landmarked districts. Their info can be accessed through 311 or the LPC. They are not a branch of LPC, or any other city agency, they are a separate organization. In addition, the homeowner could contact NHS - Neighborhood Housing Services, which could also steer them to low cost loans and/or grants.

The most important thing is to get a shed and/or scaffolding up before anything else happens, or someone gets hurt.

I'm a minority group member, and I support landmarking. Yes, it causes some annoying pain and aggravation, but it protects those minority nabes from the real threat of "white folks forcing out minorities" - mass overdevelopment, high density lux high rises, historically significant buildings on large lots being torn down for new construction, and vast swaths of existing buildings being razed instead of rehabbed.

I'm nowhere near rich, myself, and if this were my building, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a lot of money, too. But there programs around. Hopefully the homeowner will be advised of such and take action. Having the building seized, razed, or having a huge lawsuit has no upside for him/her whatsoever.

Posted by: Brower Park at May 7, 2007 11:29 AM

Armchair warrior, it is not...repeat, not..."racial," okay? We are liberal-arts-poor white trash with a once-cheap POS house now "worth a million" on paper, and God forbid we ever have a mega-bucks safety-emergency repair to do. 'Cause we tapped out all the equity we could safely afford to borrow a long time ago, to cover a family health emergency. We'd be just as screwed as 'minorities' (whom you seem to presume are all poor--not in our experience). *We* are house-poor. We are WHITE. Plus, we have to endure the stigma of being labeled "rich white folks" by people like you while not even being rich, which makes us feel both angry AND lame-assed. What kind of pathetic white person can't afford to fix up their house, force out minorities, and fulfill the very worst expectations of someone who posts under the name "Armchair Warrior"?
(Which is to say, Brownstoner, that I will both wince and sympathize with both you and your neighbor if he fixes his violation with a half-assed stucco nightmare...)

Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at May 7, 2007 11:31 AM

Serge, the Landmarks Law requires that designated properties be kept in good repair. Furthermore, the Commission regulates proposed changes to a building. It cannot make you do work on your building.

I agree, the window area is in poor shape. However, i don't see why the homeowner need to get his entire facade redone at a cost of $50K. While the would be Brownstoner's preference, the homeowner could decide to do something less expensive. He could paint it for 10-15K, but i don't think Brownstoner wants that. He could strip the house of the hazardous details, but i'm not sure that's what Brownstoner would want either. That's why i mentioned unintended consequences.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 11:36 AM

Brenda, Well put. ITA.

Posted by: tag482 at May 7, 2007 11:37 AM

Last week there were a hundred postings on this site debating what is the most expensive and fancy-ass imported dishwasher to buy. Today posters seem to be trying to figure out how an owner can get out of making proper and safe repairs to an historic facade that is obviously posing a danger to any passer-by. I find that odd.

Posted by: Serge at May 7, 2007 11:52 AM

i'd be more worried about falling air conditioners. i know a few people who have dropped them out the window when putting them in and were nothing but lucky no one was killed.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 11:53 AM

casual racism by people like "armchair warrior" should just be ignored, don't respond to his ignorant posts

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 12:04 PM

racism? haha says the anonymous coward.

I just bring a different point of view vs the same old i agree with everyone post. that permeates through out these post.

Posted by: armchair_warrior at May 7, 2007 12:21 PM

It's an 8 family house on a landmarked block. If the owner doesn't have the liquid funds to do the repair, take out a loan. If the owner can't afford a loan, sell the house and come out on top financially (as I am sure that this place has not be flipped in the past 10 years so it will be worth a heck of a lot more than what the owner originally paid for it).

That's how people make money on real estate, by selling high. If the inability to make repairs due to the cost forces that action, I do not feel sorry for the owner. The house is worth quite a lot due to the location and landmarking - maintain its integrity and more importantly, its safety, or sell it to someone who will.

Posted by: lp at May 7, 2007 12:41 PM

I think we can justifiably call the owner of this multiple dwelling a slum lord. Looks like he/she has not put in any money or effort towards maintenaning the property.
This facade repair may cost more than 80,000 because the architectural elements project out quite far and they will need to be restored "in kind". DOB will probably also fine the owner for endangering the safety of his tenants and neighbors through his neglect.
I can't believe there are posters championing the rights of this slum lord. Holy cow! You guys are fighting for the wrong side.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 12:58 PM

Armchair Warrior, gentrification is not just affluent white people moving into a neighborhood. It's affluent black people moving OUT. Both things have to happen for a neighborhood to change all that dramatically. There are many many young black people who grow up in a neighborhood, who DO go to college and have a successful career, who choose NOT to return to the neighborhood they grew up in like Harlem, the Bronx, Bed-Stuy or PLG. Why not start a dialogue within your own community and figure out what you can do to attract the young, affluent black professionals? Oh but then that would have to entail taking responsibility for something and taking action, when you'd rather just sit back and blame white people.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 1:39 PM

the owner is probably a slum lord :p. i was just bring a different point of view into this discussion.

Posted by: armchair_warrior at May 7, 2007 2:00 PM

The Landmarks Conservancy is a total joke. Their "low interest loans" do not offer good rates and their cost estimates from my experience are off the charts (in my case it was 2-3 times what I probably could have gotten the work done for). So the bottom line is that you have to be rich to afford their "low interest loans". Thanks for nothing Landmarks Conservancy!

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 2:43 PM

Yeah, this sounds like the work of someone greedy, not needy. Make the mofo fix it.

ps. I see lot of young black people at open houses in Clinton Hill and fort greene, presumeably wealthy and eager to live in the neighborhood. They may even be moving FROM manhattan.

Something to consider --reverse "gentrification" assuming your definition of gentrification is racially rather than financially based.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 2:46 PM

Oh, for crying out loud, why do we always end up talking about race and AY, here? A 500-pound chunk of crap fell off the guy's building because of his neglect, and it could have killed a child--of any color. So he should have to fix it! Sheesh.

Posted by: bob999 at May 7, 2007 3:18 PM

Nothing says "classy" like blood red ironwork and chunks of freshly fallen architectural details. Must be one of those multi-million-dollar row house blocks in Brooklyn that have become so exclusive and hot.

Posted by: suburbanite at May 7, 2007 3:27 PM

Indeed it is, suburbanite; indeed it is. Wish it weren't so but these homeowners are in-love with the idea of preservation and restoration (and community as well). Quite admirable and constructive qualities if you ask me.
just curious, suburbanite, what's your interest here? I mean, why bother?

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 3:44 PM

I like to keep up with the old neighborhood. It makes me feel good every time I get home to my immaculate block with the century old oaks and their understory of dogwoods. I pull up to my nice indoor garage and then go into my sunny, spacious house with landscaped backyard and pool, which I'm getting ready for the summer.
But my house doesn't cost as much as the houses in the old neighborhood so I don't have to take in renters downstairs. It's a different life, I think mine is better, you think yours is better, it takes all kinds no?

Posted by: suburbanite at May 7, 2007 4:28 PM

There is a division of DOB that handles
emergencies, this looks like an emergency. They will show up in a blink of an eye when the facade is crumbling. More like twenty thousand for the facade, depends what needs to be done. In the
interim the city can erect a scaffold so
no one is injured. Please call 311 and tell them you need the emergency unit,
someone is going to be injured.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 4:55 PM

it's funny thought suburbanite...many or probably most of us brownstone dwellers have lived or spend a portion of our lives in the suburbs, and i know for one i'm not seeking out blogs specifically about the upkeep and restoration of 1950-70s post war suburban architecture.

but then again, i suppose you can only talk about vinyl siding for so long, right??

Posted by: anonymous at May 7, 2007 4:56 PM

Where is all this severe facade damage everyone is bitchin about. All i see is one bad window frame.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 5:29 PM

Actually my house is brick, but how long can you talk about ceiling moldings? I think you all are house-proud and we all tend to be garden/lawn- proud.
I grew up in Park Slope,in those days we called it Park Slop. I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there.
Maybe my kids will move back to Brooklyn, I doubt it, they're more into Colorado. Even more open space.
I think the brownstoner movement is remarkable, I really do. especially since I remember brownsotne livng being so inconvenient and decrepit and noisy.
But then some people are driven crazy by crickets.

Posted by: suburbanite at May 7, 2007 5:33 PM

What's to deliberate, bricks fell, it could have hurt someone.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 5:41 PM

I hear crickets at night in brooklyn, suburbanite. Guess it all depends on the hood. Doesn't drive me crazy. Sort of like having the best of both worlds....for now.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2007 6:01 PM

suburbanite, in the manner that she speaks. i assume a she, is the epitome of a very very bitter person and it makes me sad to think of her all alone in that big gorgeous house of hers, waiting for the kiddies to get out of school, watching oprah, wondering what to cook for dinner while trolling away nasty little messages on brownstoner.com

at least you may have your own lovely office, doll and a big pool for swimming, but i can walk out my door and actually see PEOPLE.

no, not molding (although yes, i have a ton of it), not vinyl siding, not bricks nor brownstone, but live, human wonderful HUMAN BEINGS!!! and shops and a park, and restaurants, and oh yeah...more people.

and that my dear is why you find yourself milling the time away on this dear website.

Posted by: anonymous at May 7, 2007 6:33 PM

The site is the equivalent of white people bitchin like monorities do on the street. We call it e'bitchin.

Posted by: anon at May 8, 2007 7:17 AM

Im really sad for you surburbanite. Its obviously you are regretful for leaving Brooklyn while you could still afford it and are now on here to tell us how great your life is out there. Protest too much?

All of us with short commutes and million dollar brownstones really care about your garage and dime a dozen house in the burbs.

Im sure there are many truly happy people in the suburbs who are happy to be out of the city...but Im also sure none of them feel the need to proclaim how wonderful surburban life is to a bunch of people who have no desire to live there.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 8, 2007 7:52 AM

I'm not THE suburbanite, but I'd like to give you some reasons as to why I read this site. I grew up in Bklyn and moved out a few years ago....mostly to get away from the arrogant, obnoxious folks whom are moving in. Nobody here, of course. I own one of dem million dollar brownstones and keep an apartment for myself for when I get homesick (I rent the rest). It's an investment...the house, the rentals, the neighborhood. We were thinking of moving back full time last year, but decided against it because we've gotten too spoiled by the "surburban" lifestyle. We own a Queen Anne Victorian with property that rivals any of those in Flatbush, we're a 5-10 minute walk to Main St, the train and the river. We have friends, restaurants, shops, galleries, yoga, pilates, health food stores....
Just because people think RE prices are high DOESN'T mean they are bitter renters. And just because people who moved to the burbs read this site DOESN'T mean they actually want to be living in Brooklyn. Please, please...get out more YOURSELVES.

Posted by: another suburbanite at May 8, 2007 9:59 AM

Falling air conditions are my biggest fear! Does anyone know how many lives are taken each summer by out of control AC units?

Posted by: Fez at May 8, 2007 10:11 AM

another suburbanite, if you read for nostalgic reasons and to keep up to date with happenings in the borough, why then do you think there is a need to 'bash' those of us who've made the choice to call brooklyn home.
I personally believe that there's a wonderful rennaissance underway, and yes, it's not perfect, but the majority of these pioneers are improving the borough, one house at a time and I think it will be a fantastic case study of urban revitalization in a couple of years. And for that reason, I tip my hat to the newcomers.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 8, 2007 10:35 AM

10:35am, I think Another Suburbanite was responding to those who bashed suburbanites as being uninformed and unsophisticated about the city. So he was pointing out it's an informed choice for him and many others. Admit it, there is a snobbism among Brooklyn brownstone owners about suburban people. Probably mostly defensive because they are acutely aware of the huge financial burden, risk and labor they've taken on buying 100 year old houses in borderline neighborhoods and it's scary at times.
Signed, a Brooklyn limestone owner

Posted by: Anonymous at May 8, 2007 3:37 PM

i think most new yorkers are snobby towards suburban life. not just brooklyn brownstone owners.

as they should be

the burbs suck

living in an urban environment is more evolved. some are fine to coast.

Posted by: anon at May 8, 2007 6:03 PM

I must say, you don't sound like good neighbors. I am sure you think you are good people. I am astonished at what comes
through. I know that most of you are not
native New Yorkers, NYERS are mush kinder
to eadh other. I would not want to live
within earshot of most of you. Wouldn't
want to hear your magical thoughts in a
restaurant. Be Better, stop thinking ony
about how smart you all are, how much better you think you are.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 9, 2007 9:39 AM

we are all responsible for keeping property we own in good repair. Race has nothing to do with that. Some communities fine you for not mowing your lawn or keeping the lawn in place(I was just talking with someone in Florida who was fined for two barren patches on his lawn). If your building is failing down because you can't repair it its time for you to sell the property to some one who can. There are loan programs, senior repair programs and many programs to help. You can always pass the hat if you have to. Landmarks does require that the property match what was there before how you propose to do that is frankly your problem. Too many properties in this city were allowed to deteriorate until the collapsed like 217 court did yesterday....

Posted by: smeyer418 at May 7, 2009 10:49 PM

« Clinton Hill House Tour Wrap Residential Sales in Brooklyn »

May 7, 2007

Watch Out for Falling Objects

Trackback Pings

Comments

Post a comment

Latest Restaurant Additions