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May 11, 2007
Vic Flatbush: DCP Fiddling While Rome Burns?
While several brownstone neighborhoods have completed or are close to completing rezonings to better balance the often-conflicting interests of development and preservation, much of Victorian Flatbush has been left at risk. While a small portion at the southern end of Victorian Flatbush (known as Midwood) has already been rezoned, the larger area to the north of Avenue H has been left flapping in the wind. Because of the number unusually large lots and the development-friendly R-6 zoning, the area is particularly at risk of being taken over by McMansions and Multi-family Fedders buildings. (For example, check out the Fedders sandwich above: 345 Stratford Road, 1101 Cortelyou Road and 1105 Cortelyou Road.) City Planning is taking the matter under consideration but at a bureaucrat's pace. “We are committed to doing a study,” said DCP's Winston von Engel. What this means in terms of timing, in The Courier's estimation, is that it would be a year in the best case scenario. You can get a lot of foundations in the ground in that time. We'd love to hear from readers who have been active in pushing for this rezoning, particularly about what DCP has been like to work with.
Race to save Victorian Flatbush [Courier]
Photo by Flatbush Gardener
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Comments
i'm for development, this not my back yard mentally destory alot of forest and farm land outside of cities.
if they don't developed it here where can they build new housing? i rather see them do it in the cities.
Posted by: armchair_warrior at May 11, 2007 10:24 AM
Scary to think that developers may sniff rezoning in the wind and step up the pace...the Caton Park area (the sliver between the Parade Grounds and the Prospect Park South historic district) has a few severely neglected old properties, and now when I pass them, I think, "Dead house walking." The plywood fence and the horrible spawning of a brick or stucco monstrosity has come to seem inevitable...
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at May 11, 2007 10:28 AM
I support the development. The avenues should be open to development. The side streets already have low zoning.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 10:46 AM
This whole "I'm for development so anything goes" mindset wrecks everything from Atlantic Yards down to these small properties. It's not an either/or proposition.
Developers don't care about anything but their profits - fine. But not at the expense of the beighborhood. The person that lives next to the crapshack in the picture has rights too. As does everyone that has to look at it. Develop the space, and if that means building something the same distance from the front of the lot as the neighbors, or something roughly the same height as the neighbors then that's too #$%ing bad.
Posted by: John at May 11, 2007 11:00 AM
I'm involved in landmarking Beverley Square West and I think this is good healthy development for the area. First off, this was a vacant lot for at least a decade prior to development. Also these are condos which are rare for Ditmas Park and highly sought after. The neighborhood needs more 1 and 2 bedrooms apts. and Cortelyou merchants need the disposable income the new owners will bring to support their businesses and to attract new businesses. The developer lives on my street, is a home owner and is sensitive to issues of over development. I think referring to these as fedders is a big stretch. What else should developers do with a vacant lot?
Posted by: Argyle Road at May 11, 2007 11:04 AM
How can you possibly claim that the person who built this is "sensitive to issues of over development"? That's insane
Posted by: Anon at May 11, 2007 11:08 AM
Visit neighborhoods like Elmhurst Queens if you want to see the unpleasant streetscape that is the logical endpoint of this kind of development - a bizarre assortment of styles, lot lines, finishes, sizes etc. If we just want housing then this is fine as there doesn't seem to be anything to save in a neighborhood like Elmhurst. But in Brooklyn some neighborhoods have a cohesive style that is historic and not possible to replicate. This is worth saving. I don't think a cheap Fedders building does as much for the housing crisis (as all these buildings are marketed as luxury coops - no matter how unrealistic that may be) as to destroy something that once gone is gone forever. Whole cities such as NY or SF are known for certain types of houses and giving this up - imagine a Fedders in the middle of San Francisco's painted ladies - is a crime and an unbelievably short cited on the part of any city that allows this to happen. Developers are out for a cheap buck and don't live in the neighborhoods they chose to abuse. I think we have to look to the city to protect our neighborhoods.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 11:09 AM
Oops...I'm definitely against knocking down single family homes like the ones on Statford in the name of development...that sucks...what a disaster. But what i think is good are the condos on Cortelyou, a commercial district, that's what I'm definitely for...sorry for the confusion.
Posted by: Argyle Road at May 11, 2007 11:12 AM
When you buy a house you buy the land that it is on. It's your responsibility to find out what could happen around you before you buy. Same goes for the people who bought on Smith & Atlantic: you knew it was across the street from the prison. You accepted that when you bought there; to object after the fact is absurd. Deal with it or move. Seriously.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 11:23 AM
Not the developer...I wish.
Posted by: Argyle Road at May 11, 2007 11:37 AM
I am a homeowner in the neighborhood. WHile not against multi story building I do think there needs to be some solid guidelines on what the exterior looks like. We need good design standards to fit the look of the area.Think CELEBRATION FLORDIA for example
Posted by: Robert at May 11, 2007 11:39 AM
12:05 or buy in landmarked area where you know what can & can't happen around you. Buyers have choices. No crystal ball needed just some common sense.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 12:16 PM
I couldn't agree more with anon 11:09, or disagree more with Argyle Road. This building is dreadful and it is sad that the developer lives in the area. The story is he was lobbied to build something in context and disregarded all. Of course taste is not imparted upon moving into a neighborhood... as many of the abhorrent alterations in Beverley Square West & Ditmas Park West attest.
I too think its great that the empty lot is being built upon - providing condos and hopefully much needed retail space. I think its horrible that this person built it without regard for the neighborhood aesthetic. As you know Cortelyou Road has been struggling for forever to establish an identity. Just now with new streetscaping and retail starting to percolate... this hideously ugly patio/fedders yellow brick Queens monstrosity plants itself in the middle with a big "screw you." FDC, CORMA and Friends of Cortelyou (and whoever else can influence such things) really need to let potential developers know that this kind of blight is not welcome. Build yes, build ugly no! Cortelyou Road is too important for all of Victorian Flatbush to allow more of this kind of thing to happen.
Posted by: SeamusMacD at May 11, 2007 12:21 PM
Moved into the nabe about a year ago, and this has been the hottest issue at community meetings. They've been working hard to get the rezoning through, but have met a lot of inertia at the city council level. That's why the election of "Dr" Mathieu, an inept crony if I ever saw one (save maybe for Bush), was so disheartening.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 1:06 PM
MOst of the houses in Victorian Flatbush have not been very well maintained. They are only marginally Victorian in their appearence and many people unfamiliar with the area are unaware the area is even "Victorian".
I find the title of this entire article hillarious however.
Nero burned down the homes of the masses so he could build himself and his cronies mansions, temples, and assorted other wastes of real estate.
If anything, the anti-development stance of the rich with these enormous homes is just like Nero. These mansion owners could care less about the poor and middle class who have to share apartments or live in cramped, rundown buildings. As far as they are concerned, only the rich should have access to quality neighborhoods and screw everyone else.
If you want to maintain a high level of aesthetics, focus on that. You can have attractive high-density housing. Look at much of Manhattan. The Upper West Side was built for the middle class.
Demand that, but please - almost nothing east of Prospect Park is worth saving. Level it all and build great new housing so that housing becomes affordable again.
Posted by: Eryximachus at May 11, 2007 1:38 PM
I think we're comparing oranges and apples here. The single family homes that were demolished on Stratford are really changing the character of a tree lined street with a lots of free standing single family homes. Lets hope that area can be downzoned to prevent this from happening again.
Cortelyou has what, two maybe three freestanding single families on it over a 10 block stretch? Cortelyou has been made up of eclectic buildings since the 1950's including high rise apartment buildings. The days of Cortelyou Road being a victorian enclave are long since gone.
All I'm saying is its so easy to lump all development into one category. As far as the aesthetics, I think the jury on the Cortelyou building should stay mute until we see how the developer finishes the exterior. Sure it could suck, but why assume its another fedder special? None of the naysayers have suggested what would have been responsible development for Cortelyou...
Posted by: Argyle Road at May 11, 2007 1:58 PM
yes i was also wondering about where the pictures of the fedders were, since i've looked at the building often and have yet to see the dreaded sleeves. of course, denizens of this board don't really care if it has sleeves or not - they don't like anything except expensive houses that few people can afford.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 2:56 PM
Well we assume its a Fedder's Special because there are indeed holes in the walls where the hvac grills will go... because it is being faced in cheap oversized yellow brick... because it has patios and sliding glass doors that face the street... that's the definition of a Fedders Special.
Responsible development would have been the same kind of mixed use condo/retail building only aesthetically pleasing, and ideally, with an architectural nod to its surroundings and the neighborhood.
Yes Cortelyou Road is a commercial street and different from the sidestreets. But it is one of the key hubs for a unique and historic area. Wouldn't it make sense to capitalize on that richness instead of disregarding it?
And lastly if, for whatever reason, you decided that you hate victorian architecture and you didn't really care about context... Couldn't you at least build something that's modern... but great? OK, if great is just too much for you, how about pleasant to look at?
Posted by: SeamusMacD at May 11, 2007 3:04 PM
http://www.fdconline.org/housetour.html
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 3:57 PM
the fact is that victorian flatbush is the largest neighborhood of free standing victorian homes in the COUNTRY....they may not be all victorian...some are edwardian...they may not all be in good shape but that is changing...isn't it worth saving? we are talking about what makes brooklyn great and why it has some of the hottest real estate in the country if not the world....yes affordable housing is important but the developers are not thinking affordable they are thinking profit...if you are for affordable housing then join acorn and get active.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 7:33 PM
I live near this building. It is not going to be beautiful, but Cortelyou isn't exactly a model of fine architecture. The references to Victorians being torn down on Stratford are kind of puzzling, since nothing was torn down to build this. It has been a vacant lot since circa 1972, and is opposite a one-story building that serves as a furniture warehouse which only sees activity on the weekend and is gated the rest of the time. The corner has been dark and dangerous for years, littered with broken glass from the cars foolish enough to park there, not to mention drug paraphernalia and other urban detritus. So, even Fedders might be a welcome change. I'm not sure I see the Viking-and-sub-Zero crowd buying condos on Cortelyou and Stratford anyway, across from the Mexican deli and the pastry shops.
Posted by: stratford resident at May 11, 2007 10:31 PM
I too am a resident of BSW and and I am pleased to see that something was being built on this vacant lot. I am curious to know what the finished product will look like. The Argyle Rd developer should have provided an artist rendition of the end product, he should know how critical his neighbors can be. The developer should have also taken into consideration the feeling of the woman who owns the yellow house on Cortelyou. She is not pleased, to say the least. At any rate I do support the down zoning and I do think that the Condo's will sell quickly. I have friends who have come to visit me, who were impressed with Cortelyou Road and were surprised at the growing number of shops and the realtively short travel time into the city. They have limited budgets for purchasing a home and although the condos in the area are few, they are ususally reasonablly priced in comparison to nearby areas. So we may not see the Viking and Sub zero crowd but hopefully the condo's will be reasonable enough to attract people like my friends who are teachers and who work for non profits.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 12, 2007 2:19 AM
It's obvious that a lot of these comments are being written by people who haven't actually seen what has been built so far. Before you voice support for this piece of crap, walk down and have a look. Believe me, you'll yearn for the days when there was a vacant lot on this site. This building is horrible and we are now STUCK with it.
It's depressing that so many people who live with me in this part of Brooklyn, and who at least SEEM to like it, are prepared to turn the area over to developers whose only concern is a quick profit. I understand the need for development and would wholeheartedly endorse careful, well planned development, but for the life of me I don't see how we're helping our neighborhoods by surrendering them to people who don't care about us, don't care about our neighborhoods, don't care about our homes, and don't care about anything except how much money they'll make before moving on to the next job.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 12, 2007 7:10 AM
I did look at the building. I prefer it over the vacant lot that was there previously although it remains to be see what the facade will look like when completed. I don't think that these structures should be built on the North South blocks but Cortelyou is a commercial strip.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 12, 2007 10:37 AM
I agree with 10:37. Cortelyou is commercial, so it doesn't matter how ugly it is. If it becomes an eyesore and detracts from the overall desireability of our neighborhood, that doesn't matter because Cortelyou is a commercial strip.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 12, 2007 11:05 AM
odd because donskoy usually designs decent buildings.. I haven't seen the face of this one but it should at least be better than the standard fedders
Posted by: gc at May 13, 2007 8:49 PM
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