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May 1, 2007
Mapping the Atlantic Yards Timeline
No one on either side of the Atlantic Yards debate disputes the fact that its construction would be a major pain in the ass for residents. The question is rather how long people would be inconvenienced for (Chuck Ratner's on record saying 15 years) and whether the end-product would be worth the inconvenience. To address the first part of that question, graphic designer Abby Weissman has overlaid the construction schedule with a site map. The result is the clearest representation we've seen to date of the timeline. For a bigger version of the map, click on the image above.
The (Projected) Ten-Year Atlantic Yards Timeline [AY Report]
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omg
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 9:45 AM
HOLY SHIT!!!! That is crazy! The folks in that immediate area are screwed for a very long time. And that's putting it mildly.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 9:57 AM
I think this will be great for Brooklyn. I cant wait.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 9:59 AM
How will they get an arena up in 2.5 years??!!
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 10:03 AM
yeah, my bathroom took that long!
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 10:11 AM
2016? Ratner and Gehry will probably be dead or incontinent by then. thats a long way off. In fact, we'll probably all be dead by then.
Posted by: Frankie B at May 1, 2007 10:20 AM
Only nine years for all of it to be finished is not far off imo.
Posted by: lp at May 1, 2007 10:27 AM
The construction will displace residents, which is clearly awful. The actual act of demolition, construction, etc... isn't going to do much more than that though. Flatbush traffic pattern will be pretty much the same. Cranes arent' that bad to look at. In the meantime there will be surfact parking instead of a gaping hole of a railyard. Then, eventually, there will be ugly housing that looks like projects but costs more. The timeline of the plan also means that this probably won't look anything like it's projected to, and that also the immediate traffic and school zoning predictions are way off. It's also interesting that these high rises will be built well after all the new construction that's already underway on Flatbush and throughout Fort Greene. Aren't those doing more to shift the character and crowdedness of Downtown than AY in the near future?
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 10:28 AM
Have you noticed that Atlantic Center is beginning to look more and more like the photo of Barclays Center (i.e., with the new circular addition going up on the corner of Hanson and Ashland Place).
Maybe they're planning on closing down and emptying out the shopping mall. Just an hypothesis.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 10:29 AM
"Only nine years for all of it to be finished is not far off imo."
Except that Ratner's own people are estimating 15-20 years.
Posted by: EJ at May 1, 2007 10:30 AM
phase two has too much residential. will the building be luxury high rise, low-income or what. i don't like phase two.
Posted by: monica at May 1, 2007 10:44 AM
Fair point, I was just looking at the dates on the map above.
Posted by: lp at May 1, 2007 10:45 AM
That's what this is, a residential development with the Arena as some sort of rallying point. This is about residential condo development (with some retail presumably on some bottom floors) and maybe some office space as I understand it. I don't have a problem with that, I just object to the use (or threat of, which can equate to the same thing) of eminent domain, the massive scale and the lack of planning from a traffic, environmental (utilities, sewage, police, fire) and schools perspective. Overall, I'm more for it than against it - it will increase property values in the long term imo - instant gentrification.
Posted by: lp at May 1, 2007 10:49 AM
There's no way in hell all of that is going to be built in 9 years. FCRC took more than twice as long to put up Metrotech as they said they would. There's going to be a massive surface parking lot in Prospect Heights for decades to come.
lp objects to the use of eminent domain, massive scale, and lack of planning re: traffic, sewage, schools, etc., and yet concludes that s/he's "more for it than against it"!
It's so sad -- we could have had something really good in Prospect Heights. Instead we're going to get a glass high rise enclave dividing Fort Green from Prospect Heights forever.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 11:02 AM
ONLY 9 years? Have you lived through something like ConEd doing work in your hood for 2 days? It's miserable. 9 years is going to be eternity..
Posted by: anon at May 1, 2007 11:10 AM
This is a tax-payer funded nightmare. Why on earth couldn't the development have been on a scale that would have actually enhanced the area and not just maximized Ratner's profit? Our politicians got bought and paid for. Time for some new ones I say.
Posted by: John at May 1, 2007 11:13 AM
Why isn't Dan Goldstein's eviction posted on the chart?
Posted by: Ed at May 1, 2007 11:20 AM
Oh yes, the sky is falling. Terrorist atacks, sewage, glaring metal, puking basketball fans, and ambulances entangles in traffic jams. You people need to get a life! Drama Queens!
By the way, check out the photo of the "footprint plaintiffs" on nolandgrab today. A sea of white faces. I thought that this was such a diverse bunch?
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 11:45 AM
Queens comes to Brooklyn! Get ready for Pizza Huts, TGIF's, KYC's. Say goodbye to our wonderful quirky neighborhood.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 11:55 AM
Anon at 11.45, don't be so quick to make this a racial issue. I'm white, and like I said above, I'm more for than against this development.
However, one thing that I think all the race-baiting people such as yourself should think about is the fact that this development will likely result in much fewer lower income poor black people living in the area as rents will likely rise in all of the low rise brownstone neighborhoods, along with rising home prices in the long term. Actual jobs will not be high paying careers, and the affordable housing component is negligible in the scheme of the entire project in the long term.
Like I said, I'm more for than against the project, but to cast aspersions against people protesting AY just because they are white actually may be counter-productive to preserving low income black neighborhoods in the surrounding area.
If you do not think that the surrounding area will only become more expensive as a result of the AY development in the long term, fine. However, there is no need to make the protesters race a base line issue. And for what it's worth, Tish James and other council members in the area, who are black, as well as many of my neighbors, who are black, oppose the development for various reasons. Implying that anti-AY people are anti-black is not only likely inaccurate, but it is not well thought out and serves to skirt the realities of how this project will affect the make-up of the neighborhood in 20 years.
From a tepid supporter of the AY development.
Posted by: lp at May 1, 2007 12:00 PM
This is more like that hideous "Aventura, Florida" crap architecture like the Forte Towers that is now blighting our neighborhood. And regarding the 'drama queens' comment from a Ratner twat: we live here, tool. We love this neighborhood. We hate to see this 20-year construction zone cut two great communities off from each other. And this is not just a 'white issue', as you like to address it. This is a community issue, and just because our politicians have bought into this ill-designed project doesn't mean that we will be cheering for what is an inappropriate extension of that horrendous dead zone Metrotech.
It's out of line. It's out of scale. It's inappropriate for us. Take this design and implement it in Florida. I'm sure their taxpayers would love to foot the bill.
Posted by: Gary at May 1, 2007 12:07 PM
lp 12:00,
As with many on this board, you neglected to actually read a post before critiquing it. I never criticized AY opponents for being white, but for attempting to represent themselves as something they are not: a diverse group. They have insisted ad naseam that they represent a broad demographic, yet all photographs of their ranks depict a predominantly white makeup. If they are all white, then that's perfectly fine. I just prefer that they admit rather than try to hide this obvious fact.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 12:14 PM
My point is that because they are white, that does not mean they only represent "white", whatever that means, interests - they represent the interests of those who agree with them, which is not just the white residents of the area, but a racially diverse mix of people. Again, race-baiting, and a diversion in my opinion from discussing issues and potential outcomes.
Posted by: lp at May 1, 2007 12:16 PM
This whole project is an example of the current sad state of classic NY GREED. Those that are for it are only interested in the prospect of potential increase in property values. Screw community. Profit, pure and simple. They would approve ANYTHING that might enhance their future gain. I feel sorry for anyone who invested in Ft Greene and surrounding nabes. The nightmare hasn't even begun and it looks bleaker every day.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 12:30 PM
OK folks- look at the time line- what gets built first? The money making parts of the project- nothing else matters. Granted Ratner (and this graphic designer) avoid highlighting this (what is with all the grey around the arena? $10 says it is all commercial- where the TGIFridays and such go). The residential stuff is all just a sopp to the politicians and neighborhood groups. This project is all about rentable sqfootage near to mass transit.
So, if you are looking for a silver lining- phase 2 is the least likely to ever get built. The fact that it is phased seperatly implies that they are going to wait to see how the first phase preforms before extending themselves for a bunch of crappy residential low income(return) housing. And re: timing of completeion- add at least a year or two to each date.
It is going to be hellish for anyone who lives near by- glad I decided not to live next to a rail yard when I moved to B'lyn ;)
Posted by: Max at May 1, 2007 12:31 PM
lp,
So even though all of the photos depict a white majority, these people represent a diversity that is invisible to the rest of the world? How convenient. It's possible to claim diversity witout backing it up. I apologize for demanding some proof.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 1:53 PM
Anon - fine, you seem to have an ax to grind against the small group of plaintiffs you mentioned. Knock yourself out. I don't really care.
I'm a lukewarm supporter of the project - but I think you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. I don't think harping on about whether white protesters can represent both whites and blacks who are against the project is useful or lends anything to the discussion. Not every white person in the area is against AY, just as not every black person is for it. When Tish James speaks up against it, I don't assume that because she is black, she only represents blacks who are against it, and when a white protester speaks up against it, I don't assume they only respresent whites who are against AY.
Using race as a wedge distracts people from focusing on the practical results this development will have (good and bad) on the area.
Posted by: lp at May 1, 2007 2:08 PM
Stop the non-stop bellyaching! Good grief!
Come on folks, there's a good reason why this project is moving forward full steam ahead – widespread community apathy! Nobody really cares! If you go outside the immediate vicinity with its unjustified NIMBY opposition (e.g., move it to Coney Island, Red Hook or the Navy Yard), the project is well supported throughout the borough.
Moreover, the yuppie snobs who reside in the section of brownstone Brooklyn west of Flatbush Avenue (PS, CG, CH, BH and BH) have only themselves to blame for this lack of support. They've totally alienated everyone to the east of Flatbush Avenue by constantly harping on this board (and everywhere else) that recent home buyers in "fringe" brownstone Brooklyn have made an unwise investment decision to live in an area routinely describe as "ghetto" and "too black infested" to completely gentrify. As a result, most of us in FG, CH, BS, CHN, PH and PLG have come to accept the fact that AY, despite its many drawbacks, is our only and best hope. We understand and fully comprehend that AY will produce the kind of "instant gentrification" necessary to protect our investment and take our neighborhoods to the next level of security and economic prosperity. Yes, a very selfish reason but rational nonetheless.
I’m not ashamed in saying that I look for to the development of 11,000 luxury units on this site. This will catapult the architecturally superior neighbors east of Flatbush to soaring new heights! Most of us understand this reality. We don't need to stand on street corners handing out leaflets or waiving banners in support of the project. Rather we just sit on the sidelines and allow the opposition to simply die a slow and painful death (e.g., they are broke and imploding from within). In the end, my self-interests are more closely aligned with Ratner and the other developers who are dotting the downtown Brooklyn skyline with soaring skyscrapers. These buildings represent hope and a better future for Brooklyn and its residents.
This is about development and DDDB is simply on the wrong side of the issue (i.e., Flatbush).
Posted by: BrooklynProud at May 1, 2007 2:15 PM
(: >, biggest crock of baloney...keep earning your pay.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 2:43 PM
The funny thing is if Ratner said he'd build the whole thing in 5yrs, the same poeple would complaint that he is dumping too many units all at once. And if he scheduled it for 15yrs then everyone says it takes too long. No matter what the Anti-AY folks would complain - Which is actually a mistake.
If your oppossed to the project you should hope that it will take a long time, because every day longer is another day to press fickle politicians to force changes and also another day for which the market forces can also force changes - like hopefully moving some of these buildings to office/commercial from residential.
Given the disaster that AY is predicted to be by the anti folks - you'd think they'd be happy that this will be built in stages, which should give time to bear out many of the negatives early enough to force change on Stages 2 & 3.
Posted by: David at May 1, 2007 2:55 PM
BrooklynProud, that was very sad to read. You, who seems not to live nearby, belittle those who do as NIMBYs and discount their opinion. But the issue for many is, this is going to seriously diminish their quality of life, both during and after construction. It's happening over these residents' objection, for the benefit of FCR, at huge taxpayer expense, via a political process that was anything but democratic. If someone foisted such a burden on you, a burden which minimally benefitted people who live far away from you and largely beneffited one extremely rich man, what would your reaction be?
My problem with the AY supporters is that they seem unable to exercise the Golden Rule: "do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
Meantime, there's no way the boom in housing demand will continue through 2016. Ratner will be left high and dry by the time Phase II comes online. This will unfortuntately make thigns even worse for the nearby communities, but at least Ratner will suffer a little (or, really, not profit as obscenely as he expects to).
Posted by: realbrooklynproud at May 1, 2007 4:15 PM
I agree with Anon at 11:45AM!
Do we actually want these crunchy granola anti-development hippies representing Brooklyn's future? Give me a break! How much shrooms do you think this crazy bunch consumed at this picnic? 15 lbs? "Pass me the bong, duuude! Afterwards, we're going streakin'!" Can you say "Nerd Orgy"? Hahahaha! LOL!
I think they should leave the urban planning to the professionals and get back to spray painting fur coats!!!
http://www.nolandgrab.org/archives/2007/05/atlantic_yards_183.html
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 4:24 PM
I live in Fort Greene. I'm not alone in saying that the only thing that can negate the massive housing projects to the north is a massive luxury condo development to the south. We need more balance in the neighborhood, not less. Furthermore, there's too much new money invested in FG, CH, BS, CHN, PH and PLG for homeowners and other stakeholders to lose this great opportunity to further cement gentrification east of Flatbush. Have we not been told that our neighborhoods are going to revert back to the days of the crack era and that we should've paid millions more to live in more homogeneous, stable and mature neighborhoods like Park Slope? Well we didn't and if supporting AY means we're able to better protect our single most important asset then I say, "Let's Go Nets!".
Posted by: BrooklynProud at May 1, 2007 5:08 PM
David,
You will grab at anything to attack the AY opposition. My concern about the length of the build-out has to do with what's going to happen to the area in the meantime.
The problem with the fact that FCRC is lying about the build-out time is that they are using a short time frame to justify leveling the area and putting in an enormous "interim" parking lot.
If FCRC were being honest about the build-out, they would have a lot harder time razing the neighborhood -- ie, creating blight but building nothing. As it is, they are going to use the land for parking for the arena-going crowds, completely undermining the idea that people are going to use mass transit to get there. People don't use mass transit if they think they can park their cars somewhere -- proof being that most of the people who commute by car to Manhattan have free parking when they get there.
I'm sure AY is going to be changed over time, but not because the people in power will suddenly decide to listen to the critics. You harbor a decidedly quaint notion that the people who are making the decisions about AY care at all about the needs of the community.
Posted by: SPer at May 1, 2007 5:09 PM
of course because i'm not anti-AY, you'll say i'm ratner or something, but PLEASE. I lived in Prospect Heights. It's awful. terrible neighborhood. horrible people. gross ugly blocks anywhere but near the park. the whole rail yard area is desolate and depressing. stop acting like it's this wonderful place. the ghetto areas on the fort greene/clinton hill side of the rail yards are no treat. i didn't love crossing my fingers on my way home that the gang of teenage boys wouldn't mess me up as they stood outside the shite bodega on my corner every single day.
also, realbrooklynproud - do have a crystal ball?? "there is no way that the boom in housing demand will continue until 2016". WHAT?? right.
Posted by: condo dweller at May 1, 2007 5:17 PM
Technically, Clinton Hill doesn't border the AY site, which ends at Vanderbilt and Atlantic. In any event, when is the last time you visited FG or CH condo dweller? FG and CH are awfully expensive "ghettos" now, lol. I'm for the project, but you sound like a bufoon. I guess each side has its vocal proponents who do their supporters a disservice every time they open their mouths.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 5:55 PM
Brooklyn Proud, please don't speak for me, as a resident of one of the so called ghetto hoods east of Flatbush. I think, and I am not alone here, that AY is a disaster for Crown Heights, for many reasons, including the spillover of traffic and congestion into other parts of Bklyn. I also like to think that my concerns are a bit wider than my immediate block, or for that matter, my piece of Bklyn real estate, and my property values. AY is a mess for everyone, starting with eminent domain abuse, and continuing with traffic nightmares, to sewer and other public infrastructure issues, highlighted by an in-your-face runaround of all public laws, guidelines and restrictions that are supposed to be in place to protect us as Joe Public taxpayers. I won't even go into the aesthetic issues of fugly design, or my disgust at the professional rabble rousing aimed at throwing the race and class card into every discussion.
You want to better your part of the hood and your property values? Better not hitch your wagon to a developer who wields eminent domain like a hammer. What are you going to say when he turns his eye in your direction, and says, "I want that," pointing at your block? "It's blighted now, but would make a great shopping and residential center to complement AY. It's for the good of Brooklyn." So much for your increased property values.
And how do the soaring spires of AY bring hope to those who live in Brooklyn? As it stands right now, very few people in most of Bklyn will be able to afford living there, so that's like me looking at the canyons of Park Avenue and feeling hope because there are so many rich people living there. Yeah, right. And the "affordable" part of the project will only be built, STARTING AFTER the rest is finished - MAYBE, if he makes a profit. MAYBE on site, but probably not. I'm betting not.
This whole thing is just wrong.
Posted by: Brower Park at May 1, 2007 6:27 PM
Its funny. Ratner and this map pretend they own the land to build out. Jokes on him and all of you, apparently.
Posted by: shiznit at May 1, 2007 6:39 PM
Proponents of AY have proven that they don't give a shit about any sacrifices of quality of life while this cheesy Orlando knock off is being built because it insures the gentrification and supposed prop value increases they are pining for. They were priced out of Manhattan and this is their chance to be redeemed. Greedy, soulless, sell-outs. NY is over.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 1, 2007 8:04 PM
Sper - term limits, death and elections should insure that a large % of the people deciding about AY now will be out of office before AY is completed. If AY opponents really beleive that the development will be a disaster then the phased build-out should allow them to make their case more effectively as their dire predictions look more realistic as AY starts to come online.
Of course no one wants construction for 15+yrs but under virtually any plan construction would take a very long time - so unless you want the desolete wasteland thats there now, the 'construction zone' issue is a reality no matter wnose plan is followed - at least now you AY opponents might be able to alter the thing before your "doomsday" comes to fruition.
Posted by: David at May 1, 2007 8:29 PM
desolate wasteland my ass!
Posted by: Da^id at May 2, 2007 1:24 AM
Brower Park must be one of the horny little hippies looking to get laid after the picnic.
http://www.nolandgrab.org/archives/2007/05/atlantic_yards_183.html
Posted by: YIMBY at May 2, 2007 5:26 AM
Brower Park writes: "AY is a disaster for Crown Heights."
No what is a disaster for Crown Heights is the extremely high crime rate (one of the highest in the New York City); poor schools, pockets of abject poverty throughout the neighborhood, drug dealers on corners, trash in the streets, and an unusual high number of homicides for a relatively small community. That's your disaster, not AY. Get your priorities together.
What Crown Height has is too much crime and not enough gentrification. AY completely addresses this issue and remedies the problem. Am I missing something or have the crazies taken over the asylum?
Posted by: Anonymous at May 2, 2007 5:37 AM
I agree that AY will intensify the gentrification of Crown Heights, which, will displace poor people, which means a major reduction in crime. Seems like a good deal to me.
D-O-N-E-D-E-A-L!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at May 2, 2007 8:19 AM
Ditto 8:19AM!!! Where's the problem?
Posted by: Anonymous at May 2, 2007 9:17 AM
I'm sorry, but displacing poor people to improve your property values is a cynical, evil, and useless venture. We are talking about people here, not garbage or some other object that can easily be removed from place to place. I'm sure some will argue they are the same thing, in which case, why bother discussing this? Why bother stating that while SOME poor people commit crimes, most are hardworking people in minimum wage, non skilled, dead end jobs, just trying to survive, and have never seen the inside of a police station, as they don't have time.
AY is going to do nothing for these people. It is not going to provide jobs, or housing. It is not going to address the root causes of poverty, or provide a single police officer or sanitation truck to clean up a single corner of CH. Nor will it improve a single school, or stop a single murder. There are no plans to improve the schools or sanitation at AY, how in the world will that somehow trickle down to Crown Heights. Pushing people out of a neighborhood in some kind of economic, as well as racial, ethnic cleansing is despicable. That some people can crow "done deal" is disgusting.
I do have my priorities right. My neighborhood needs a lot of things, AY is not one of them. If people are so concerned about Crown Heights, or any other so-called crime ridden hood, how about working to improve things from inside the community? How about lobbying for more job training, or better schools, or more police? That's what we need, not AY. AY as it is planned, is hard pressed to provide those things for itself, as improved sanitation, schools, etc aren't even on their list. How in the hell are people in CH supposed to think that anything AY is or does, will possibly improve their lives? I'm not the crazy one here.
Posted by: Brower Park at May 2, 2007 9:44 AM
I'd also like to point out to those who have used the race card and false promises of low income housing to buy compliance from certain members of the Black community- there is a very strong community organization in Crown Heights North that has signed on with DDDB because they see AY for what it really is- destructive and divisive. The Rev. Daugherty and Acorn do not speak for this community, or for its interests. They only speak for their constituents, who are only one part of a very strong, vibrant community. The groups that signed that agreement with Ratner sold out their own communities for their own self interest, not for the improvement of any surrounding neighborhood and for those who keep trumpeting how great this will be for all concerned, I cnao nly say you are blind fools. Hundreds of project style developments have gone up in the city- none of them have resulted in a huge boon to the surrounding area because huge projects tend to become mini-cities within themselves and insulated from the surrounding community. they drain the services of surrounding communities- not pour money into them. In Manhattan the effect is somewhat mitigated, but in the outer boroughs it is abundantly clear.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 2, 2007 11:40 AM
to the anons at 8:19 and 9:17- you're both a great illustration of the kind of biased idiocy that feeds too much of the discussions on this board. Obviously you are both too shallow and stupid to understand or comprehend all (or perhaps, any) of the socio-economic factors that affect Brooklyn and pepole in general.
As for anon at 5:37 am- you are so ignorant of Crown Heights that you really have no credibility regarding what we do or do not need. And what we don't need are people coming into a neighbor -any neighborhood- and deciding what they think is best for for it because your only interest is money and greed. Just because you try to sell it to us with sugar-coated press releases, dangle a few dollar bills in front of us, does not make you an expert on this or any other surrounding neighborhood. It justs makes you an obvious opportunist at other people's expense.
Posted by: resident of at May 2, 2007 11:50 AM
I'd be my right arm that the above posters advocating for the poor own brownstones with units leased at market rate.
Like it or not, you are getting this project. Thanks to an ineptly-run opposition, it's soon going to be a reality.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 2, 2007 12:11 PM
Like it or not, the project will be plagued for years to come. The community will boycott your shopping centers and retail outlets. It's a really stupid move to cut off your arm to spite your face. This community is your consumer base; don't isolate them (that includes the black nimbys too; which you so erroneously assert doesn't exist).
Posted by: black_nimby at May 2, 2007 12:44 PM
FCR has access to one of the wealthiest consumer base/demographics in the entire U.S. Scores of developers out there would salivate and literally give their right arm and firstborn for a chance at an opportunity like this. Instead of courting this community what does he do? He hires people to spit in their face at every opportunity for discourse. What sense is there in that. The AY proponents are obviously working with an out-dated business and economic model.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 2, 2007 1:14 PM
Good luck with those boycotts, black_nimby. Anyone with half a brain knows that the boycotts of Brooklyn Brewery and Atlantic Center have been major flops. Stop living in the 1960s.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 2, 2007 1:51 PM
BrooklynProud, I live in Fort Greene too, moved there when it was a lot less safe than it is now. There is TONS of money being invested into FG and Clinton Hill already, and much of it is from yuppies buying 1- and 2-family townhouses. They will cement a solid, safe middle-class existence there and improve schools there. AY is not going to help in that regard.
Have you SEEN Metrotech? It's a suburban business center plopped down into Brooklyn. Tolerable during the day and desolate at night - too desolate for there even to be any crime. What Ratner does is look at a dirty, urban 'blight' and replace it with sterile, suburban blight. I grew up in the city, I like an urban existence. I'd rather have urban blight than suburban blight; and if some rich guy really wants to create a big suburban-blight development to enrich himself, I'd rather he didn't do it in the middle of my nice urban neighborhood. If people like you want a sterile suburban place to live, why not just live in the suburbs, rather than move into my neighborhood and try to drag the suburbs with you?
And condo dweller: Prosspect Heights is a wonderful, vibrant nabe with great transportation and great amenities. So is Fort Greene. They have a strong mix of ethnicities and incomes, and they both have hogh-scool kids who can be troublesome. If you don't want to live near poor people or venture out onto the sidewalks, why live here? Why barricade yourself into your condo in the sky? Are you one of these people who moves to Brooklyn because it's apparently the cool thing to do, maybe blogs about it, and then moves away in terror after being mugged? My friend, maybe you shouldn't have swallowed the hype - maybe Brooklyn wasn't for you to begin with.
So you can maybe see why those of us who LIKE Brooklyn, who live here or moved here because we actually like the way it is, might be upset when rich people like you move here to be cool, then realize you don't like it, and then try to change it to suit your own tastes rather than just move to a neighborhood you do like (if you're a condo dweller in northwest Brooklyn you clearly have a fair amount of residential mobility). THAT'S the issue with AY for residents.
(Oh yeah, that and the traffic, construction, sewage, lack of schools and all the other infrastructural ways it's going to screw us over in order to make one jerk even more extremely rich than he already is.)
Posted by: realbrooklynproud at May 2, 2007 2:07 PM
boycotts are just one of many strategies, including picketing, filing lawsuits, speaking out against the project during dinner parties, etc. Don't you think that the hundreds of millionaires that you're isolating (i.e., the community) have friends. Don't you think these friends might be in the market someday in the future for condos or retail goods.
It would be a serious mistake to underestimate the opposition and simply dismiss them as granola-crunchy, anti-corporate and hippy. They are far more sophisticated than that.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 2, 2007 2:49 PM
AY = More Gentrification = More Whites + More Affluence + More Shops + More Restaurants + More Amenities + Better Services + Better Schools + Higher Property Values + Higher Rents + Greater Economic Activity + More Stability + More Family Friendly + Greater Investment in Community - Less Crime - Less Drug Trafficking + Less Blight - Less Trash - Less Filth - Less Violence - Less Fear - Less Slumification = Urban Nirvana
Posted by: YIMBY at May 2, 2007 3:33 PM
Any sober assessment of the AY opposition shows that the other strategies you mention have fared as dismally as the boycotts. The lawsuits have failed and are unlikely do block or change the project. Aside from a few exceptions (mostly early on), the marches have attracted small numbers. Speaking out at dinner parties is useless unless people donate money, which they clearly have not done in large enough numbers (hence DDDB's constant requests for donations). Regarding millionaires, there are plenty of 'em and if Ratner alienates a few, there will be twice that number waiting in the wings as the original crew relocates to Sullivan County.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 2, 2007 3:39 PM
I see. Thanks for the clarification. You've got this whole thing planned out. You've got an answer for everything. Everything that is, with the exception of rain-induced disasters.
FCR takes no responsibility for anything...as usual; if they're not blaming the nimby contingency, they're cursing God and nature. See, even God is again AY. He caused the rain the fall at just the opportune time for the paraphets to fall. What else will the great Creator pull out of his bag of tricks.
Remember, even if you prevail in the courts and even if our boycotts fail, the biblical plagues of babel (Tower of Babel) will assail you. It's called Karma. And it has nothing to do with the the nimby opposition.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 2, 2007 4:03 PM
YIMBY: Sounds more like Suburban Racist Nirvana.
Posted by: CH Brotha at May 2, 2007 4:25 PM
YIMBY, so glad your white people bringing Nirvana theory is so well thought out. What absolute rot.
Even people who want AY would not want you on their side.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 2, 2007 4:27 PM
I can speak for white people- we don't want Yimby either. If we need racist white folk we can call true professionals like the KKK or the Nazis. the only thing Yimby proved is that he can add. It's just unfortunate he never learned that you add NUMBERS not nouns.
Let me do my own math: Yimby Urban Nirvana=Hell
Posted by: Anonymous at May 2, 2007 4:38 PM
YIMBY=Scarsdale Wannabe.
Just go there. There's still a faster buck to be made there and you'll never be lonely, loser.
Posted by: anonymous at May 2, 2007 5:21 PM
Sorry gang but I'm here for the long haul! I love Brooklyn! I just want to make it better for everyone!
If the majority of folks living east of Flatbush are hard working, good hearted people then they're wholly ineffectual in improving their station in life in any meaningful way because the ghetto remains the ghetto. How come the majority of "good people" have done very little to reduce crime, combat poverty, drug dependency, rampant single parenthood and the glorification of drug and thug life that's destroying generations of black people?
East of Flatbush is still the hood and will remain so unless we provide a strong mix of racial and economic diversity. Yes, that means gentrification and the displacement of those ill suited to live among the peaceful and productive. The solid black middle class are an attribute to these communities; they held it together through the peaks and valleys and are the bedrock of the nabe. They are not going anyway and that's a very good thing. Why? Because they are not the ones who are making life unbearable for the rest of us. Who then may I ask? The trifling, good for nothing, lazy ass, self-annihilating, gun popping underclass. Them folks! They got to go by any means necessary!!!
They bring the entire race down and should be extricated from any good community. They can't live amongst us. Sad but true. They have no respect for themselves or anyone else. The quicker we rid ourselves of their burden, the sooner we can get to living in peace and tranquility. I know it's the the PC thing to say but who among us don't feel the same way? We do indeed think it to ourselves but we dare not utter our thoughts out loud.
For example, look at all the headache that Mr. B is experiencing on Grand Ave. It's not the majority of black families living on the block that's the problem (renters and homeowners), it's the incorrigible underclass that caused the block to get shutdown and blocked off. Why? Because the underclass can't act right, can't get themselves together and they have no respect for anything. We can't wait for the government to fix this problem because the government can't. All we can do is drive them out!
Posted by: YIMBY at May 2, 2007 7:49 PM
This is not a race thing. It's about class. I wouldn't want to live next to white trash either. Same mentality. Different skin color. The choice is their's. Either they conform and live according to our law, rules and morals or they must leave. Since they don't own anything, it's not that hard to do.
Posted by: YIMBY at May 2, 2007 7:54 PM
omigod- you really are insane. Spare us your thoughts and methods for making Brooklyn better for everyone- you sound like an arrogant ass- in fact- you are an arrogant ass. You know absolutely nothing about these neighborhoods or their people. As far as all your theories on class- how would you know? You have none. Your understanding of society, economics and politics rivals the maturity level of a prepubescent sociopath with the ethical capacity of George Lincoln Rockwell the founder of the American Nazi Party.
Someone of your limited mental and emotional capacity is not what Brooklyn needs. I'm sure somewhere there is a venue for someone like you, somewhere- Hey! I bet the Taliban have an opening. You'll fit right in.
Posted by: resident of at May 3, 2007 12:14 AM
Yimby, I'm going to concede that an underclass exists, and that out of this underclass comes an element of nogoodniks and knuckleheads. However, what you advocate is nothing short of ethnic cleansing, or some kind of class based final solution. Let me break some points down for you, as you scare the bejeesus out of me.
First of all, nobody brings the race down. People bring themselves down, their race is irrelevant. It bothered me no end a couple of weeks ago when the entire nation of North Korea apologized for the actions of Cho at VT. Why were they apologizing? All the members of any race, or ethnic group are not responsible for the actions of its members. We make our own choices, good and bad, and we represent ourselves. As an African American, I like to think we've come farther than having to either raise up the race by succeeding, or bring it down by criminal and antisocial actions. No other group is held to this group standard, and we have to stop that mindset in ourselves, and in the way society perceives us.
What is the ghetto? When I look around my nabe, I see pockets of poverty and blocks of prosperity and growth. I see corners with people hanging out, and they are passed all day by people on their way to and from work. I see plenty of room for improvement in the way people have to struggle to live, but I also see change. It is unfair to say that a neighborhood has not tried to improve itself from within. You've obviously never been to a local community board, block association, precinct meeting, church group, Masons meeting, Boy Scout troop, CHNA or Brownstoners of Bed Stuy meeting. You haven't been to any local BID meetings, or meetings of Blacks in Law Inforcement, or the Vulcan Society (black firefighters), or Black veterans for Social Change. You don't know any local politicians, ministers, business owners or community activists. We are all working our butts off to improve our communities, as are the thousands of anonymous people who work long and hard to make this community a home, down to the ladies who sweep everyone's sidewalks and watch out for everyone from their stoops and windows. We are the norm in our neighborhoods, not the exceptions. Irradicating the ills of society falls to outside forces as well as interior strengths. Step by step, we improve. The median income here is under $40K. Do you expect the new influx of so called urban pioneers to suddenly make the neighborhood into Park Slope? This community, while moving forward, still needs real jobs and job training, better schools, better day and health care options, among many other things. So some new money moves in, and all of a sudden, Poof! all problems solved? How unrealistic and simplistic.
How are you going to separate the trifling no goods? Are those the ones who are dress like knuckleheads, or the ones who actually are? How do you tell the difference? Do you separate them from the community because you don't like how they look or dress, or their choice of music? I have a lot of issues with many aspects of what is seen as "urban culture", but I draw the line at marching everyone who is "bringing down the race" to the sea.
Oh yeah, where are these people who must be sacrificed to the greater good supposed to go? Is it out of sight, out of mind? Do we not see, as in Iraq, that angry, desperate people, forced out of their homes, make highly motivated terrorists and predators? Are you advocating some kind of class war? How do you propose we "rid ourselves of their burden"? Round up anyone we don't like the look of and send them to the camps? Sterilize people? Emulate some South American cities and quietly kill off the street people and runaways? Have we turned into Nazi Germany, or Serbia? For what? Real estate?
I don't want to live in your little Nirvana. Sounds like hell on earth to me. Thank God you aren't in charge.
Posted by: Brower Park at May 3, 2007 12:59 AM
My mistake, I meant South Korea.
Posted by: Brower Park at May 3, 2007 1:05 AM
Wow. Beautifully said, Brower. People like Yimby give me the creeps- they're predators who love using buzzwords designed to manipulate everyone, Black and White alike. Because while they have all of us at each other's throats, they're quietly stealing everything they can get their hands on- homes, businesses, neighborhoods- all for their so-called greater good. Just like ratner and his buddies are trying to do.
Posted by: resident of at May 3, 2007 1:16 AM
Brower Park = the poster formerly known as Crown Heights Proud. No one else would write such a long-winded post. Is there an editor out there?
Posted by: Brower Parc at May 3, 2007 8:06 AM
Like it or not, YIMBY is correct. His vision will become reality soon enough. At this point, Franklin Avenue is showing signs of gentrification and buildings near Brooklyn and Kingston Avenues are selling for record prices. You cannot stop progress.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 3, 2007 2:54 PM
I hope they come for your property one day to tear it down for a crappy mall. And then, will you have the balls to fight back? or will you just put your apathetic tail between your legs and give up the home you love and be forced to move to somewhere else like East New York or way upstate (probably the last somewhat affordable places)? The people that selflessly volunteer, spend hours of their time organizing, fund raising, going to meetings, talking to their neighbors, handing out flyers, standing up for their beliefs -- that is what this country is supposedly based upon and why we fought against British rule. Instead we are becoming a country ruled by and catering to the ultra-rich -- only. Is that how and where you want to live? Whether the opposition to this project succeeds or fails is not the big issue here. The Atlantic Yards opposition groups are not only creating history by their actions they are setting precedents which will have to be adapted into all future projects.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 4, 2007 5:28 PM
Funny that you should contrast the AY oppostion to the "ultra rich". Many key AY opponents, such as Daniel Goldstein and Lumi Rolley, are ultra-rich. Your statement about them and their cronies "creating history" is laughable. Very few people know who the are now and they will definitely be forgotten once the project is built. They have accomplished absolutely nothing.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 6, 2007 11:59 AM
To anon May 6, 2007 11:59 AM -
I do not know where you get your information and what you consider to be ultra-rich. Daniel Goldstein's mother was a teacher. How about "middle class?" "Ultra-rich" refers to people like Bloomberg (billionaire), Ratner (multi-millionaire), Pataki, Gargano, etc.... And have you read anything about Bloomberg's new guidelines for new development as spelled out in his PlaNYC 2030? Community involvement is now considered key to any new development. According to Bloomberg from 2 weeks ago: "We know that the one-size-fits-all approach of earlier eras will not work. Building communities requires a carefully tailored approach to local conditions and needs that can only be developed with local input. We will begin the process of working with communities, the agencies that operate these facilities, and other stakeholders to sort through these complicated issues."
Posted by: Anonymous at May 6, 2007 6:38 PM
I've heard that Daniel Goldstein's mother was a (take your pick) teacher and a social worker. You conveniently neglect to mention that his father is a wealthy and successful businessman. By his own admission, Daniel Goldstein has not worked for some time and has lived off his assets. Lumi Rolley leads the same sort of life. Definitely not middle class.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 8, 2007 1:26 PM
Instead of complaining about NYC all the time why don't you all move away?
Posted by: anon at June 13, 2007 4:58 PM
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