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May 30, 2007

Houses of the Day: The Ugly Stepchild Problem

211carltonb.jpg 171greeneb.jpg
It's a rich man's problem, but when a broker has a lot of listings, the risk is that one can make another look pretty bad by comparison. Such is the case with two townhouse listings of Elliman power broker Kathryn Lilly. She recently got the listing for a house at 211 Carlton Avenue which is a classic brownstone (except for the stoop alteration) in a good Fort Greene location. The house traded for $1,580,000 in October 2006 so the current asking price of $2,650,000 may be a bit aggressive even though it appears that the owner's doing a pretty extensive reno. Aggressive maybe, but not completely insane, like Lilly's other listing at 171 Greene Avenue. We've written several posts over the last year about the owner's fruitless efforts to sell off this place as three condos at exorbitant prices, so when we heard that he had changed tactics and put the whole house on the market we thought that maybe he'd come to his senses. Apparently not. The asking price, at a whopping $2.5 million, is just as high as he was asking for the three units collectively. This place is overpriced by a good $1 million in our opinion. So now Lilly has the awkward problem of having two houses priced about the same, one an original brownstone a block from Fort Greene Park, the other a recently constructed house on a heavily trafficed portion of Greene Avenue in Clinton Hill. We're not sure how she's supposed to sell the latter with a straight face. Brokers, how do you handle a situation like this?
211 Carlton Avenue [Elliman] GMAP P*Shark
171 Greene Avenue [Elliman] GMAP P*Shark




Posted by Brownstoner at 1:28 PM | Comments (45)
Categories: Brooklyn, Clinton Hill, Fort Greene, HOTD, Real Estate

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Comments

2.6 million for the renovated ft greene flip is ridiculous when you can get the 5 story (larger) and more beautiful brownstone for 2.5, that was noted here last week.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 1:40 PM

That's new construction? Pretty damn good job.

Posted by: Jeremy at May 30, 2007 1:41 PM

early-90's construction...it's all relative

Posted by: Brownstoner at May 30, 2007 1:42 PM

Love the Carlton address -- def one of the best blocks in FG/CH area.

But come on, a listing that boasts of all this great plaster work and marble, and not a single photo of the interior?

As for the other place on Greed, I mean Greene, ha ha ha haaa aaa ha haaha.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 1:44 PM

what is so great about brownstones. up $1 Million in leas than a year and that may be aggressive. People are crazy if they buy that at that price. The second one, let it languish for 5 more years when he can sell it for 750K (if that) after the crash. Shitty neighborhoods filled with minorities will not fare well when the market crashes.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 1:44 PM

makes the 2.7 million house at 227 berkeley place, profiled yesterday look like a steal.

even with the tenant issue.

Posted by: anon at May 30, 2007 1:50 PM

My husband and I are ready to kick ourselves in the collective butt for quibbling over $25K - we offered 835K for one of these Clinton Hill town homes and the agent said the owner was not willing to go below 860K. this was about 3 1/2 years ago. What a killing we could've made. Not crazy about the nabe though.

Posted by: North Sleeper at May 30, 2007 2:01 PM

how does the broker cope with this situation? puffery, of course!
this also reminds me of a similar situation, but from the seller's point of view: hooking up with a broker who sells multi-million dollar units, when yours is, say, a paltry $500k, and the mega-money broker lists yours at $400k to sell quick and get back to her more lucrative brownstones. score another point for FSBO.

Posted by: dave at May 30, 2007 2:05 PM

What's up with the plywood in the windows on Carlton? Or maybe it's brazilian Ipe, which would help explain the price jump.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 2:13 PM

Fort Greene park stinks. It's an oversized dustbowl surrounded by a busy hospital and depressing and violent housing projects. Carlton is a block away from the park, but also a block away from Myrtle, and many blocks closer to the projects and the BQE.

The house on Greene Ave is a better buy. It's modern, airy, doesn't require constant brownstone upkeep, and it's probably a less scary block to walk at night. It's also got better trainage.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 2:22 PM

Some comments here are outright racist. Neighborhoods filled with minorities? Minorities don't have money? And secondly if you haven't looked around the city lately white people are the minority, except on the upper east side maybe

Posted by: anon at May 30, 2007 2:40 PM

As one of those minorities in a "shitty neighborhood filled with minorities", although not this particular "shitty neighborhood" in question (please!), I can only say, please take your hate and go as far away as you possibly can, 1:44. Those of us who enjoy and thrive in said "shitty neighborhoods", majority and minority alike, will be living large in our homes, the value and desireability of which will only rise. So sorry you missed the boat, but glad your sorry ass is not here with your bigoted nonsense. Taa taa.

Posted by: Brower Park at May 30, 2007 2:41 PM

Please, minorities and everyone else, ignore commenters like 1:44!

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 2:55 PM

2:36-

Change 'surrounded by' to 'adjacent to'. Carlton house is in fact closer to the PJs and the BQE and Myrtle than Greene, and the point was that Greene was a better spot, and that the proximity to the park of Carlton was an overrated feature of the Carlton property.

A preference for one location over another in the same neigborhood does not make someone a borderline or casual racist.


Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 2:56 PM

Re: 2:22 What a fool. The park rocks, as do the amenities nearby. While I am admittedly biased as I live on the block, IMHO Ft. Greene is the coolest nabe left in the city and that strip of Carlton is a great block... beautiful, quiet and central. Plus the block association is fantastic (the reason why every tree has matching guard rails, the houses are lit, etc). And even though I don't have time to participate in the meetings etc., I now know just about everyone who lives on the block...

Admittedly, the dustbowl in the park is a drag, but as I play in the pick-up games I can hardly complain. The Parks Department reseeds it every year, but it just gets thrashed from use... And that is the greater point: that Ft. Greene Park is used by everyone... families, dog walkers, Tech kids, bohos, euros, brownstoners and project kids... with far less ethnic/class tension, in my experience, than elsewhere in the city. The park represents the best of Ft. Greene, and if in the process in encourages self-selection and keeps people such as yourself away, all the better... Ever consider that the reason houses in the area are so expensive is that others agree it's a great place to live?

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 3:09 PM

Wow. It's OK to call me names, and to disagree with me on my assessment of the park as a selling point, but it's odd to imply that I'm bashing FG just because I prefer one block over another. Anyone who lives on either block would presumably be able to use the park. I would just prefer to live on Greene than on Carlton because I don't need to live one block away from the park, and I like living closer to the train and on a busier street. I think the larger neighborhood FG/CH needs people who want to live on Greene too. People on this site spend far too much time bashing those new construction houses on Greene.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 3:19 PM

ft. greene park isn't a park. it's a patch of semi-seeded grass and a tennis court.

i love ft. greene, but come on...it's a pretty poor excuse for a park.

prospect park is a park. and a diverse one at that. I realize we all can't be lucky enough to live near it, but praising ft. greene park as the epitome of a perfect urban oasis does seem a tad strange.

Posted by: anon at May 30, 2007 3:27 PM

3:09. Thanks for saying it all. I generally dislike all these itty bitty city parks, with the squatters and dealers (Thomkins, Wash Sq) or the friggin corporate parks (Mad Sq Park), but Ft Greene Park is actually the strangest beast: It's small but feels big, perhaps because of the diversity of people, perhaps because of the stunning landscape design, perhaps because it's so high up. In any case, it is a true landmark of brooklyn and greater new york, and there isn't a single place that better exemplifies what I would consider the ideal of living in this city -- and that absolutely INCLUDES the projects on one side, the brownstones on the other, the hospital on the third side, and the cafes and schools along dekalb. LOVE LOVE LOVE this place.

I respect 3:19's opinion of course, I just couldn't disagree more.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 3:28 PM

Prospect park is depressing. That whole entrance to it reminds me of the garishness of columbus circle. And it's basically a poor man's Central park. No identity. Sorry.

At least Ft G park isn't trying to be anything but what it is: Gorgeous.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 3:30 PM

There should be a virgin mobile ad that exploits the park tensions of Fort Greene

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 3:51 PM

2:13 raises a good question about the plywood. Either the plan is to install taller windows or, dare I say it, A/C sleeves. Fedders building, anyone??

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 4:12 PM

in response to 1:44 comments about minorities and brownstones.

Hey buddy you are probably upset that you dont own a brownstone due to your poor financial condition and lack of an adequate education. You probably live in a trailer somewhere in west virginia with your kissing cousin playing house. I bet you wished this was the 50's in the Jim Crow South all over again, but unfortunately for you most of the people that now reside in these communities that you detest so much have grown past the hate that you so cowardly want to permeate. So I say continue to be bitter and hateful and remain in your poverty of ignorance.

Posted by: anon at May 30, 2007 4:24 PM

4:24
You may be well intentioned, but your post is just as weirdly hateful and full of stereotypes as 1:44. The people who post those things are just trying to get a rise out of people. Too bad there's no blog equivalent of everyone yelling 'Boooo' I wouldn't be surprised if the two posts were actually by the same person.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 4:28 PM

Re: 2:22. What an idiot. Is he related to Bush. Are you out of your mind?????
This section of Green Ave is an example of terrible architecture. You have to be without any taste to buy one of these houses.
Brownstoners, in my opinion, an example of good sensible filler is on Vernon between Marcy and Tompkins. RUnfortunately the owner keeps it empty for over a year. Something fishy, possibly they benefited for promising something to the state. By not able to rent or sell you do not have to comply. Off course the state does not know that the owner deliberately is not advertising.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 4:39 PM


Whoever is bashing Fort Green Park and Prospect Park are nuts.

Living in a brownstone within a few blocks of Prospect Park would be ideal, as far as I'm concerned. Especially for people like myself who run and bike regularly, it's a great low key alternative to Central Park.

Sit down, Troll, you're acting up again.

Posted by: the scarab at May 30, 2007 4:41 PM

yes my thought were well intentioned and no I am not the same moron as 1:44 but it is very upsetting to see someone write something as ignorant as that and no one even inform him/her of his ignorance. And I guess that if you were probably a person of color you would be crying "booo" as well if you work hard every single day of your life to overcome the stereotypes casted down upon you and your community by people within our society.

Posted by: anon at May 30, 2007 4:44 PM

Forgive me, but in response to your question, Mr. B., who prices these things? The broker, right? So what's the problem? I don't understand the question maybe. How could she be in the awkward position of having two houses priced the same which shouldn't be the same? She priced them wrong. And how do you handle this? You price them right or go to a therapist and find out why you can't deal with empirical reality or assert yourself with insane seller clients. In the end, overpricing something wildly is also a tremendous disservice to the seller, who will not sell the overpriced property and ultimately must face the increasingly public fact that it is a distressed or very stale property.

Posted by: anon at May 30, 2007 4:53 PM

umm, any broker who can answer this - or is it a trade secret? But why do we really care? Back to Forum for me to read about things that reallyinterest me - how to renovate house, not how to drive up prices so people like me can't afford them.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 4:57 PM

"Prospect park is depressing. That whole entrance to it reminds me of the garishness of columbus circle. And it's basically a poor man's Central park. No identity. Sorry. At least Ft G park isn't trying to be anything but what it is: Gorgeous.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 3:30 PM"
YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND...YOU CAN'T BE ANY FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. IT IS NOT GORGEOUS, GORGEOUS IS PROSPECT PARK.. AND LOTS MORE OF IT.

Posted by: EM at May 30, 2007 5:00 PM

Dear 4:53 and anyone else who really thinks it's the broker who sets the price...it's really the seller who wants what they want. brokers either have to adjust because they are told to add to that # to compensate for their commission or lose the listing. sorry AND the market dictates the price. brokers can be called greedy blood sucking slugs but it is what it is and the seller is the one who accepts or declines the offers...and they don't get their commissions unless they move the place...

Posted by: me at May 30, 2007 5:03 PM

i didn't know power brokers dealt with rentals.

Posted by: anon at May 30, 2007 5:09 PM

It's ridiculous to argue about the virtues and shortcomings of Fort Greene now. Yes, it is a great nabe, but after AY is built Ft. Greene will irrelevant. So stop the bickering already.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 5:13 PM

From the NyTimes

LANDSCAPE connoisseurs sometimes make the glib observation that Central Park is just a rough draft for Olmsted & Vaux's even more masterful Prospect Park, created in 1866-1874 in Brooklyn. There is some truth in that, for a walk through Prospect Park is like a tour of an impeccably chosen private art collection.

A key distinction between the two parks is siting. The rectangle that encloses Central Park is an uncomfortable container for what is, essentially, a work of bumpy green sculpture.

But for Prospect Park, Calvert Vaux convinced the Brooklyn Park Commissioners to adopt an irregular polygon in which there are very few dead spaces. The park's components nestle together nicely, like an expertly packed group of odd-sized objects.

Another characteristic of Prospect Park is its topography: The southern part is a low, flat plain with bright, open views. Most of Central Park is rugged and hilly, where the opportunities for sweeping vistas are limited.

Both Olmsted & Vaux considered Prospect Park to be their masterpiece.


Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 5:29 PM

and there you have it!

Posted by: em at May 30, 2007 5:31 PM

The broker can advise on price but it's the owner's call. Presumably Kathryn Lilly knows 171 Greene is--and has been--overpriced but she's got a stubborn (and delusional) client. If a buyer approaches her looking for a brownstone in the $2.5 million range, it's hard to imagine her being able to recommend 171 Greene with a straight face when she's got something else of much greater quality in the same range. That's all.

Posted by: Brownstoner at May 30, 2007 5:33 PM

I've seen the homes on greene ave. they are mediocre at best. very vanilla, bland and not worth what they are asking and if the owner is who I think it is, they are going to take the broker through hell and back!

Posted by: me at May 30, 2007 6:22 PM

What's the point of comparing ft greene park and prospect park? I mean really! Both serve their communities well. As a proud Ft. Greener, I have to say that living near the park improves my life daily, and as another poster mentioned above, it is a true reflection of the diversity of our community. Dustbowl and all!

viva ft greene!

Posted by: rosie at May 30, 2007 6:24 PM

Lilly is very professional. Known her for years...has the relationships to get both properties sold.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 8:08 PM

a good broker would walk away, but the desperate do whatever they have to. lilly lies in the latter catagory.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 8:38 PM

The way it is *supposed* to work is that the owner sets the price with the advice of the agent; if the agent does not like the price the agent walks away or (often) takes the listing with (perhaps) an understanding that pricing will be reduced if the market snores.

Lots of agents have “competing” listings, all of which can be well represented in theory. When it works right, The Market decides, and the agent advises the owner about what The Market is saying (or not saying). Agents who persist in representing over-priced listings just like to see their names in the listings. Agents who do right by their owners help the owners get the best deal available in The Market.

But some owners will never be “sellers” because they insist on a price that The Market will not reach for some years (if at all). Agents waste time and money with such owner-never-sellers. No reason for someone to do that if they are trying to make a living and are good at doing that.

Posted by: Sandy Mattingly at May 30, 2007 9:25 PM

8:38 agreed.

A true power-broker won't take on a listing that they know won't sell. This is not a first for Kathryn: 280 Washington Ave, that funky loft/garage thing in deep bed-Stuy that Jerry Minsky at Corcoran took over, Clinton Mews coop/rip-offs, the current Ft Greene Pl listing she has. Her "Just Sold/Rented" list speaks voulmes--it's short!

Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2007 10:05 PM

she ranks up there with sandy biano at brown harris stevens in my book. she's had those vermeil condo listings and has sold two it looks like since they went on sale maybe 4 months ago.

not good.

Posted by: anony at May 30, 2007 10:31 PM

PROSPECT PARK MAKES ME WANT TO MASTURBATE.

Posted by: Donny FUCK at June 2, 2007 12:11 AM

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