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May 10, 2007
House of the Day: 303 Park Place
As we've saying for a while now, prime Prospect Heights is where it's at. The nicest brownstone blocks match up to just about anywhere in terms of charm, there's a funkiness that is completely missing from Park Slope and the houses are, what, 30 to 40% cheaper? As a result, a house like 303 Park Place, even though it's relatively small, will have buyers lining up, we think, to pay the asking price of $1,595,000. Especially when you take into account the 131-foot-deep lot and the surfeit of well-preserved details in this place. Agree? The first showing's not til May 17th.
303 Park Place [Brown Harris Stevens] GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
seems reasonable to me, but i just bought a prospect heights brownstone myself so i may be a bit biased. :)
Posted by: z at May 10, 2007 1:45 PM
If by "funkiness" you mean more crime I would agree 100%.
Posted by: Jim at May 10, 2007 1:46 PM
How bizarre that the broker would disclose that the house is being "spruced up and staged" in preparation for its first showing!
Posted by: Park Sloper at May 10, 2007 1:47 PM
This is a beautiful block -not much funkiness here
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 1:51 PM
I dunno. I think you're guesstimate as to prices Park Slp vs Pros Hts is greatly exagerated. Always lot of factors in pricing - condition, niceness of block etc.
Here is same price house in contract from Corcoran on Pk slp side of Flatbush.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 1:56 PM
oops...
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=937123&ohDat=
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 1:56 PM
yeah, the funky comment is a bit weird.
i hadn't realized that we were starting to diss other neighborhoods in this way here...on the comments sure, but now by mr. brownstoner himself??
i'll take the "funkiness" of 5th avenue in the slope over vanderbilt anyday of the week.
Posted by: anon at May 10, 2007 1:58 PM
Has this area gotten safer?
It used to be real dicey.
Posted by: anon at May 10, 2007 2:05 PM
I agree. I really like P Heights. My take on "funkiness" comment is that P Heights feels more hip and young, less granola/crunchy/old hippy than many parts of "prime" Park Slope. I like the Slope as well, but different neighborhoods do have different vibes. I live in Clinton Hill for disclosure's sake.
Posted by: lp at May 10, 2007 2:11 PM
Three words:
ATLANTIC
YARDS
EFFECT
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 2:24 PM
c'mon, face it. park slope is a much nicer area vs. propect heights. the "funkiness" on 5th avenue is a different kind of "funkiness" from the on parts of prospect heights
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=937123&ohDat=
The above house had structural damages thus the comparable price to houses on Prospect Heights
Posted by: anon at May 10, 2007 2:30 PM
Seven words:
SHUT
UP
ABOUT THE ATLANTIC YARDS EFFECT
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 2:30 PM
c'mon, face it. park slope is a much nicer area vs. propect heights. the "funkiness" on 5th avenue is a different kind of "funkiness" from parts of prospect heights
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=937123&ohDat=
The above house had structural damages thus the comparable price to houses on Park Slope
Posted by: anon *CORRECTION* at May 10, 2007 2:31 PM
c'mon, face it. park slope is a much nicer area vs. propect heights. the "funkiness" on 5th avenue is a different kind of "funkiness" from parts of prospect heights
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=937123&ohDat=
The above house had structural damages thus the comparable price to houses on Park Slope
Posted by: anon *CORRECTION* at May 10, 2007 2:32 PM
I remember seeing the listring for the Lincoln Place house and thinking it looked like a deal. What were the "structural damages"?
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 2:41 PM
the Atlantic Yards Effect is going to be rapid appreciation in value for PH real estate -- especially properties a few blocks away -- say anything at St. Marks or below -- that will benefit from more services on Vanderbilt & Washington, but will feel little or no impact from construction. Ive lived in one of the largest brownstones on one of the prime - prime blocks in PH since 1999; the discount to PS has held constant at about 25-30% for comparable properties on comparably situated blocks -- In 1999, a park block 4 story single or two family in PS was about $1.2M and about 850 - 900K in PH on Prospect, Park or Sterling west of Underhill. Today that house is $3M in PS and about 2.2 in PH. A three story frame house south of 12th St and west of 5th in PH is about $1 mil and in PH, on Bergen or Dean east of Underhill is about 750K
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 2:48 PM
I don't know, isn't funkiness a compliment? Unless you're talking about smells. Give Mr. B a break.
Posted by: anon at May 10, 2007 2:48 PM
funkiness was definitely meant as a compliment.
Posted by: Brownstoner at May 10, 2007 2:51 PM
this is $680/foot. a bit high, but I hope they get it.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 2:54 PM
People are getting pretty ornery, lol! I don't think there was any intended bashing of Park Slope. Everyone knows its a nice nabe. P Heights is nice too, and has its own feel, that's all.
Posted by: lp at May 10, 2007 2:56 PM
Re 2:48 a thoughtful post, but am wondering about your comment "the Atlantic Yards Effect is going to be rapid appreciation in value for PH real estate -- that will benefit from more services on Vanderbilt & Washington,"
Vanderbilt has a good supermartket (as BK supermarkets go, a nice wine shop, a handful of great restuarants, drycleaners, a bakery, a coffee shop. etc. We aren't lacking much. I really think that the arena will bring in franchises like KYC as they will be appealing to sports fans -take a look at what's around Madision Sq garden. That is not a neighborhood I would chose to eat in, given a choice. Also there is the likelyhood that buildings on Vanderbilt will be torn down to put in Parking Garages or larger stores. All of these I think of as detrimental to PH. And all this is without mentioning the parking situation. All this makes me, a long time PH resident, very sad as I think this change is inevitable and not for the better.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 3:47 PM
This brings me to listing at 546 Carlton, between Dean and Pacific. Does anyone think this might be a good investment? Or that living there might not be so bad? It's a relative bargain.
Posted by: anon at May 10, 2007 4:13 PM
Corcoran listing, that is.
Posted by: same anon at May 10, 2007 4:14 PM
There was no structural damage at the Lincoln Place house. The stairs need replacing, but that's not a big deal. The floors are a bit tilty, but it's normal old-house settling.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 4:27 PM
Re: Carlton. That's a choice. Do you like noise, dirt, pollution and traffic? These are factored into the price and that's why its a 'bargain'
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 4:47 PM
I was in the house on Lincoln Place. IT DEFINITELY HAD STRUCTURAL ISSUES...
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 4:53 PM
PH is a wonderful safe place to live. It has a totally different vibe than PS--I think for the better--just my opinion. I do think it is funny that many responses to PH posts claim that PH is unsafe--THat was back n 1990. 27 years later is is a very quiet place....
I think the house is well worth the price
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 5:10 PM
Speaking of Carlton: What about the Corcoran listing on Carlton in Fort Greene? Sweet, but $2.5 million?
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 5:23 PM
The Carlton listing in FG is really nice, and a great location - prime. I wouldn't be surprised if it got full price.
Posted by: lp at May 10, 2007 5:28 PM
Seriously, enough with the PH-bashing. It makes no sense. I live on the next block, can see the backyard of this house from here. Every house that I've heard of being sold on either block in the past couple years went for around $1.6M. Those were in excellent condition, can't speak for this place. As to funkiness, we could use a bit more around here. It's pretty sleepy. The vast majority of residents have been here for many years. The Park Place house is a block and a half from the Q, and three blocks from Prospect Park. Anyone who thinks this part of PH is substantively different from the best of Park Slope is living in 1989. (With the notable exception of the public schools.) Plus, the back yards on these blocks are enormous, far bigger than anything I've seen elsewhere in Brooklyn.
also:
I don't see KFC's sprouting on Vanderbilt being a by-product of the Atlantic Yards. The main foot traffic isn't going to be people coming from the games, it's going to be the 15,000 new residents living in the gehry-behemoth. And they're going to want fancy places to eat. Vanderbilt is going to be planted down the middle, and mark my words in 10 years it will be like Smith St. or 5th ave.
Posted by: anonymous at May 10, 2007 5:42 PM
Frankly none of us can say if $1.595m is appropriate w/o seeing inside -- and there are no pics on the BHS site. I agree with the previous poster: the brokers comments about "sprucing up" seem to strike a cautionary note about the condition of the house. Plus he admits it needs a new kitchen. I almost bought a house on this block in 1999 that was on the market for $450,000 so times have certainly changed. An identical house on this block sold in '05 for about $1.7m (if memory serves) but it was fully renovated. Unrenovated, as this appears to be, I'd estimate a selling price of closer to $1.4m. There won't be AY construction impacts in this location (too far South and East) but in terms of what happens on Vanderbilt during/after the building of AY, who can say at this point? There's certainly cause for concern though I would expect Flatbush, 4th Ave and 5th Ave to bear the brunt of undesirable commercial development (fast food outlets, strip joints etc) -- ie. points West, not East, of the arena.
Posted by: NeoGrec at May 10, 2007 6:18 PM
I am amazed to read the comments from people who seem to think that Atlantic Yards development will have the same aesthetics and values as people who live in the neighborhood now. PH'ers want Delicacies and Soda and Beast. The developer are going to put in Applebees. They don't care about us, they are catering to the people who go to basketball games. Not bad people, but not people who care about interesting restaurants and shops. The developers will put any garbage in that they think will make money - look at the mall on Atlantic. Chucky Cheese and wings joints. PH is a organic neighbor that grew over years with a certain integrated population and the commercial venues are owned by small business people who cater to our ecletic neighborhood. That will be gone with the wind when the big box stores and chains arrive. Look at big developments in NYC, look at Queens Blvd. They don't have the kind of ambience we have. And what we have will be destroyed by Ratner and Atlantic Yards.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 6:39 PM
Brownstoner,
I have to wonder at your frame of reference regarding what constitutes a good deal in Brooklyn these days. Here we have a perfectly nice one family brownstone for sale at a bargain price of oh, about $11,000 per month!!! on a 30 year mortgage. Meanwhile yesterday you were giving that perfectly nice two family brownstone in Bed-Stuy a luke warm reception at all of $3,000 per month with the rental income. I'm beginning to sense a distorted picture of economics here, I mean, following the numbers; less than 1% of the U.S. population could actually afford this brownstone in Prospect Heights. I guess you will have a line of millionaires lining up for this one. Grey Poupon anyone?
Posted by: Antoinne Roquetienne at May 10, 2007 7:03 PM
Regarding the Corcoran Carlton Avenue listings (there are two between Dean and Pacific) -- the prices are great for the space. We went to see 532 Carlton a couple weeks ago: the layout's perfect, the floors are cheap-home-depot but the rest of the details are nice. And it is AMAZINGLY priced, at $440 a square foot.
I'm not even afraid of the AYE development that will come across the street. Even if it's 20 stories, the streetwall will be only 6 stories or so. But the deal breaker for us was that until the new development comes in, that ENTIRE BLOCK is going to be one huge parking lot, with 1000 parking spaces. Ugh.
Posted by: jdm at May 10, 2007 7:11 PM
6:39pm is right on the money. Very well put.
Posted by: west at May 10, 2007 8:43 PM
6:39 is not even remotely on the money. for starters:
1. basketball crowds will be there no more than 45 nights a year. it's ludicrous to suggest that development is going to be wholly focused on people attending games 12% of the year.
2. what evidence is there to suggest that Nets fans prefer Applebees to more interesting restaurants and shops? what is the source of this smug superiority that assumes people who attend basketball games are knuckle-dragging nitwits with no taste?
3. once the gehry towers are built, a large portion of the people who will be attracted to them are those that find brooklyn and local neighborhood niceties appealing. to the extent the new housing development spurs new commercial development, it's far more likely to be upscale boutique-y fare than applebees and the like.
look, i understand the worry that the character of the neighborhood is going to change in a bad way. i don't want big box stores and tgi fridays in the neighborhood either. but the parochial doomsday rants really miss the mark, and by a wide margin at that.
Posted by: z at May 10, 2007 9:33 PM
correction: there could be more than 45 games/year if the nets advance into the playoffs. :)
Posted by: z at May 10, 2007 10:05 PM
re "45 home games a year." There is no way that stadium is only going to be used for basketball. Throw in another 50 or so concerts, circuses, ice capades etc. No way are the Nets/Ratner going to let that thing sit fallow for 6 months a year.
whether concert-goers, sports fans etc. are going to want to stay in the neighborhood before/after events is tbd. I personally don't.
Posted by: Pete at May 10, 2007 11:12 PM
What most people fail to realize is someone will be buying this as there home. NY has a lot of people who make in excess of $500,000 per year who can afford this place. Maybe not most of the people responding here. Currently there is nothing on the market that is remotely good for $1.5 mil on a good block in Prospect Heights. Nothing... If the house does go for $600 plus per square foot, the Richard Meier building is selling at $1,100 plus per square foot. For such supposingly smart people everyone forgets that the lot is large and you can probably build a large addition (hopefully tasteful) which increases the value of the property dramatically. Too bad Brownstoner did not research this in conjunction with the proposed value of the place. My gut is that it will sell in the first week..
Posted by: Anonymous at May 10, 2007 11:45 PM
z,
All you have to go on right now is the Ratner track record in the mall--and that is Chucky Cheese and wings. You'll probably get a chain steakhouse like Ruth's Chris for the basketball fans but I wouldn't count on more. It's not that the fans are nitwits but there is a certain kind of establishment that sports fans from out of the nabe will be looking for. And it ain't the kind of thing that's on Vanderbilt now.
Posted by: west at May 10, 2007 11:55 PM
I agree that the AY project will bring in chains--and it has nothing to do with assuming that b-ball fans have poor taste. It's just that if 20,000 people converge on a neighborhood for an hour or two pre- or post-game, cute little neighborhood eateries are not going to service that many people. Big restaurants that are familiar and fast will have a big advantage. I think some people going to events at the arena will enjoy window shopping on Vanderbilt, but more will have a limited amount of time and want to go to a store known to them where they can buy what they have in mind. I also think a lot of condos in this development will be rented out not lived in by the owner. An arena is a destination development, not a for-the-locals project. For good or bad, AY is going to change huge swaths of Brooklyn.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 1:33 AM
Details ABOUND in this house, people!
I hate the word "abound." Effing realtor-speak. Next thing you know, they're going to start calling plants "plant materials."
Posted by: bob999 at May 11, 2007 7:04 AM
One, AY will be dominated by chains because they have the most money and can pay the most rent.
Two, the stadium will be used a bare minimum of 100 nights a year. Look at the garden for example - hosts 320 (not a typo) events a year.
Three, "doomsday rants miss the mark by a wide margin." Hardly.
Sorry, back to the house. Er . . . looks nice!
Posted by: John at May 11, 2007 7:54 AM
The asking price is just that, that doesn't necessarily mean there is a rube out there willinging to pay that price.
One must watch the national indicators as well.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 7:57 AM
Parts of Pros. Hts. has been rezoned Far of 6 i believe. That leads to buying three
houses , maybe two wide buildings and tearing them down to put up a larger building, ala Park Slpe very South. The ugly new housing stock makes you want to barf.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 8:00 AM
Mr. B -
Are you just taking the broker's description for the "surfeit of well-preserved details" or have you seen this joint?
Posted by: curious at May 11, 2007 11:15 AM
I agree about the concern about low end chain restaurants, but people need to keep in mind, when in comes to future development of Vanderbilt Ave etc., that AY is about the residential buildings (the expensive condos) much moreso than the arena. The people purchasing condos will be wanting the Beasts, SODAs, bakeries etc of Vanderbilt now (and hopefully in the future) moreso than Applebees. They will form the regular customer base. I think any influx of chain restaurant type places will be centered in and around the arena, while P. Heighs will cater to the existing and new residents who will move into the expensive condos in the multiple towers to be built. Just my opinion...
Posted by: lp at May 11, 2007 11:37 AM
Dear Jdm at 7:11pm --
Here's a serious shout out to you and all buyers looking at properties close to the AY footprint. DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
Yup, you're right about the parking lot. But even a tiny bit of research will quickly reveal that the residential towers planned for that site will rise 25-45 stories high. So you can forget that streetwall of "only 6 stories or so" you optimistically anticipated. Buyer beware!
Regarding the retail development component of AY, of course it will be national chains. It has nothing to do with basketball fans and everything to do with the economics of commercial RE leasing.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 12:31 PM
prospect heights is one of brooklyn's best kept secrets (in terms of aesthetics vs. affordability ratio). It's so hush hush that even the PH residents don't need to boast about it; they don't need to 'rep' that hood; they simply enjoy it. I absolutely adore it but I would be concerned about buying anywhere near AY until we know for sure that this project will be built correctly. There's just not enough oversight to ensure a happy medium of 'quality of life' vs. alleged 'city benefits/revenues'.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 2:30 PM
anon 12:31 - exactly what economics of commercial RE leasing are you talking about? Yes there will be national chains -- but more likely that Houstons and Banana Republic will replace Old Navy and Chuck E Cheese at AY itself, supporting the viability of vibrant independent retail/restaurants on Vanderbilt. Chain creep sucks, but its inevitable. I wouldnt want to live on Dean Street during the construction, and Im not looking forward to driving through the Flatbush/Atlantic/4th intersection 10 yrs from now, but AY is going to a huge uplift for PH
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 3:57 PM
Anon 3:57pm. FCR does not have a good track record of attracting high end retailers. Fort Greene and PH were already pretty expensive nabes when the new part of Atlantic Terminal opened. Aside from an incredibly badly stocked Target (that's Target fault of course not FCR's), the stores there leave a lot to be desired. I'd be happy to see this change but I'm not holding my breath.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2007 5:32 PM
Charles the broker for this Park Place house said "abounds"!
Posted by: Anonymous at May 13, 2007 1:12 PM
Oh I see Bob999 already pointed it out. lol.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 13, 2007 1:13 PM
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