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April 3, 2007

Red Hook Un-Modern: CB6 Dings Townhouse Proposal

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To the great surprise of local developer Marshall Sohne (who's done conversion and development projects on Tiffany Place and DeGraw Street), Community Board 6 has overwhelmingly rejected his proposal for three modern townhouses on the corner of Columbia and Woodhull Streets in Red Hook. Evidently, board members didn't like that the defining material of the proposed buildings was metal. “It’s not that the committee is against modern, it’s that the committee wants some elements of the existing Columbia Street stock,” incorporated in the design,” said Land Use Committee czar Jerry Armer. As far as Sohne is concerned, context doesn't mean a whole lot when the surroundings are "pretty much some crumbling buildings, barbed wire, and used car lots.” Since the community board's vote is purely advisory in nature, there will be no changes to the plans before they go in front of the BSA.
Land Use Committee Doesn’t Welcome Columbia St. Plan [Courier Life]
A Red Hook Renewal on Tiffany Place [NY Times]
Photo by Kate Leonova for Property Shark




Posted by Brownstoner at 10:01 AM | Comments (23)
Categories: Brooklyn, Development, Red Hook

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May I ask why the developer needs the OK from the taste and architecture laureates at the community board? I thought their thing was zoning. Not facade materials and design.
Does he really have to abide by their fashion dictates?

Posted by: red hooker at April 3, 2007 10:17 AM

In general you wouldn't be looking for approval of design or materials from CB.
But since they need zoning waver, CB can add their 2 cents.
If site were closer the heart of area I'd understand. But so close to highway, you'd think good as place as any for expermental design for anyone willing to put up their own money.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 3, 2007 10:30 AM

I've been to Community Board meetings, and they are a mix of good watchdog and bad design-by-commitee. Here we have the latter. If Armer had meant that the new designs should somehow be sympathetic in massing or scale to existing stock, well, there may be something to that critique. But when he means the problem is metal, this isn't a good starting point for a meaningful critique.

"The things we look at are materials: brick, limestone, brownstone." Egad.

Contextualism has its place (though too much a Holy Grail for some in my opinion), but what Armer is proposing is provincialism. Dictating specific facade materials in committee underscores the superficiality of the critique: Armer's suggestion is that facades are like clothes and what the clothes are doesn't matter as long as they amount to a dark suit.

Good facades, however, tend not to be materially-interchangeable, but are designed in the context of what the materials can (and cannot) offer the design as a whole. I haven't seen the proposed design, but I can think of many steel facades that cannot be done in brick, and vice-versa.

In good design, building facades should be understood as intregal parts of a whole design, not as appliqué. Armer's in the wrong here.

--an architect in Brooklyn

Posted by: Anonymous at April 3, 2007 10:36 AM

that corner looks like Brooklyn's version of Beirut. Let them build whatever they want there, beats the empty eyesore that's there now. maybe they'll patch up the street too.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 3, 2007 11:23 AM

It's the ideal environs for some cutting edge architecture IMHO!

This is about power! Armer and his cronies at cb6 have been pissing all over the Columbia Street/Red Hook area for years. CB 6 truly wants to keep the neighborhood a backwater, disempowered enclave. Cutting edge projects would attract residents which may challenge CB 6's hegemony. CB 6 is made up almost entirely of residents of PS,CG & CH, but Red Hook/Columbia Street make up 40% of the district's population! There's only a three or four folks on the board which reside west of the BQE. Jerry Armer is arse!

Posted by: Anonymous at April 3, 2007 11:34 AM


not "whatever they want," but if it's decent quality and design, it shouldn't matter if it's made out of plastic!

Posted by: the scarab at April 3, 2007 11:35 AM

Sohne is a Scarano fan. The crap projects he's put up around Tiffany Place are an embarrassment. Any oversight on this guy is a good thing for Brooklyn...

Posted by: Anonymous at April 3, 2007 12:44 PM

Some renderings of the proposed design would be nice. There's quite a difference between the Guggenheim and Sohne's Tiffany St. work.

Then again, that end of Columbia St. is a wasteland, so I'd be inclined to support any not-total-crap development.

Posted by: sad_otter at April 3, 2007 12:54 PM

What is funny about this is the fact they wont allow something new to be built with a modern facade but the housing projects down the block are just dandy. LOL. this board need to be overthrown.

Posted by: ron at April 3, 2007 1:46 PM

Anonymous 11:34 is right. CB6 has been screwing Red hook for years.
In addition, no one on the board has the faintest inkling what good design is, and apparently don't know their asses from a hole in the wall. It's unbelievable that they're acting like a Landmarks Committee for a project on a burned out corner next to the battery tunnel. Community Boards have no place dictating aesthetics in a non-landmarked district.

Posted by: anono-nono at April 3, 2007 2:00 PM

Contextual in Red Hook? Hello? What are these guys smoking? Contextual materials are quonset, linked fence, rusted cars.. For contextual design, what you need are movie set designers, not architects. Planet of the Apes.... Mad Max.... Blade Runners... Excape from NY....

Posted by: donatella at April 3, 2007 2:08 PM

Ooh, Donatella, you've just made me realise why I moved to Red Hook! Fantastic!

Posted by: anon at April 3, 2007 2:16 PM

and we should assume that a half way home for mental patients is contextual to the neighborhood? where were all these community board good for nothing lunatics when the plans for erecting such a use building on columbia street bet. degraw and kane were approved? one thing is for sure, these guys will probably have a "contextual" facade, but it will be just that, a facade. What will be its true effect over the community - and the columbia street they brag to be so concerned about? some input from cb6 would be appreciated!

Posted by: -a columbia street resident at April 3, 2007 2:57 PM

"Brooklyn's version of Beirut"

while i've also used this phrase many times in jest, it is a bit outdated.

i hate to say it but most of beirut these days looks more like chelsea. it's nothing like it was 20 years ago.

i'll go with calcutta, although.
or do they call it mumbai now...

Posted by: anon at April 3, 2007 4:41 PM

a columbia street resident:
cb6, buddy scotto, and all his cronies sure were up in arms when a battered womens shelter moved into carroll gardens "proper" a few years ago, but you can be sure they don't care about something like a halfway house as long as it's not too close to them. Oh, and as long as it's 'brick, limestone, brownstone' too.

Posted by: anonym at April 3, 2007 7:22 PM

donatella,
your a broken record.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 3, 2007 10:44 PM

Dear 10:44, Thank you darlin' for paying attention.

Posted by: donatella at April 3, 2007 11:00 PM

dear donatella,
i imagine that your neighborhood is about as boring and repetitive as your posts are.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 3, 2007 11:22 PM

Dear 11:22,

That was a gentle joke, my friend, please don't be offended. It wasn't meant that way.

Have a good day.

Posted by: donatella at April 4, 2007 6:33 AM

I liked donatella's comment and I LIVE in Red Hook (which is why I thanked her). Y'all need to calm down.

Posted by: anon at April 4, 2007 11:45 AM

donatella,
red hook is treated like a second class neighborhood by the CB6 and city agencies, in part because of people like you who try to propagate an image of it being a fun neighborhood to ogle at on the way to fairways, but without any real merit as a place to live. and yet the real estate market in Red Hook is thriving, proving that there is a very real market for people who appreciate everything that it has to offer: the mix of ethnicity and class; the artists and galleries; the beautiful working waterfront; the breathtaking views including a full frontal of the statue of liberty. so yes, we get angry when you insist on trying to knock red hook down, taking jabs when ever brownstoner presents you with an opportunity. red hook has been crapped on for so long by this city that I would hope more people would be rooting for its continued revitalization and share the excitement of its early stages of renaissance.

Posted by: samandjoeshow at April 4, 2007 11:56 AM

Dear Sam and Joe Show,

I got that loud and clear from some of the others, who seem to be extremely PO'd at the city agencies and I do know that policy regarding RedHook has been bungled and it has suffered a history of confused initiatives from NY City from Moses on down. And probably having a real stake in the real Red Hook, you are very sensitive to wiseasses like me. So, I am sorry OK? Peace.

Posted by: donatella at April 4, 2007 3:25 PM

7:22 is misinformed. As a board member of the Carroll Garden's Association, Inc. Mr Scotto attempted to get infill housing built at what is now the Post Graduate Center metal health facility site. The community board rejected the proposal. The State then took the property, presumably to avoid a City ULURP process and sold it to PGC. The Carroll Garden's Association was one of many petitioners' in a proceeding to stop the project. A stay was granted. Environmental issues were raised. But the project was not built because PGC fell on hard times. The Carroll Garden's Association many numerous attempts during the intervening years to get the property transfered back to the City for the purposes of building the infill housing, but to no avial. So you can blame Buddy for wanting an educational campus, open space, and housing with a mix of one third low, one third moderate and one third market by the waterfront, but not for the PGC facility.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 4, 2007 4:06 PM

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