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April 16, 2007
House of the Day: 250 Lefferts Avenue
While in some ways it doesn't really matter, it's hard not to get hung up on the fact that this house at 250 Lefferts Avenue changed hands 18 months ago for just $495,000 and is now asking $879,000. We're not sure how much (if any) work was done in the interim, but if it involved those kitchens, they should have saved their money; the house would show better with old run-down appliances than with these Home Depot specials. When you compare it to last Thursday's HOTD, 181 Midwood Street, this place looks a bit overpriced, in our opinion, despite being a bit larger. While the Lefferts Avenue house was probably at one point on a par with the Midwood house, it appears to have had a tougher life. Luckily, some redeeming original elements survived and with some renovation CPR this could still be a very nice place. But it deserves a discount to the Midwood house of more than $46,000, we suspect. Agree? It would be helpful to know what the contract price was for 242 Lefferts Avenue just down the block.
250 Lefferts Avenue [Aguayo & Huebener] GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
On 242 Lefferts, WTF is with those photos that say "Sample: not an actual listing"? Is there really a "bay view" from the roof? What bay? Are these photos of some other house--which is to say, why the HELL would you post them? (Especially when they're this bleedin' ugly?) And WTF is that thing on the ceiling above the fireplace? I agree with Bstoner on this kitchen, too, which aims high for the title of super-fugly--and attains it. Yeesh. A confusing listing for many reasons, not least of which is the attempt to flip so aggressively without doing anything purty to the place. Good luck with that.
Posted by: bob999 at April 16, 2007 12:41 PM
Ooops, sorry, I seem to have confused which of the two properties is attempting an aggressive flip.
Posted by: bob999 at April 16, 2007 12:43 PM
I agree with Brownstoner too. This site is quite brilliant when it comes to Brownstone valuation. It's never about a personal agenda like those other sites. For example, look at how Brownstoner predicted Brooklyn's great real estate crash in 2006! Look at how Brownstoner prevented the development of Atlantic Yards! This site is right on the money, all the time, and I appreciate that their not just a bunch of hacks pretending to be experts so they can leave their day jobs.
Frankly, I'm not someone who can really think for herself, so I rely on experts like this site. Here's an amazing tidbit - did you know that the owner of this site has only lived in Brooklyn for 4 years? I'm so impressed that Brownstoner can know this borough and become a legitimate authority after such a short period of time!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 12:49 PM
I appreciate the information on this site. I don't think that the owner of this site has ever hid the fact that he has been in Brooklyn for 4 years. It is good information for context- but not exactly worthy of contempt. It gets tiring having to skip past all of the mean spirited pointless posts.
Maybe it's time to start brownmoaner for those who just want to bitch.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 12:59 PM
Looks like someone forget to take her happy pills today!
Posted by: brownstoner at April 16, 2007 1:04 PM
Sounds like bad Monday for someone or forgot to take his meds.
I read this site all time and never remember Brownstoner predicting any crash or whatever. Has voiced opinion on AY (and disagree with on this point) but never hysterical/doomsday like some AY folks.
And he is native NYer- didn't just arrive from California or someplace and doesn't claim to be expert in much of anything.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 1:05 PM
Anon 12:49, is this your listing, sweetie, or is it your house? Either way, you were fricking *crazy* to get mixed up with Aguayo and Heubner... but that's yer call. BTW, hundreds of thousands of people find it interesting and helpful to have conversations about Brooklyn real estate here, so if you don't, why don't you step away from the computer and re-do that ugly kitchen of yours? :)
Posted by: bob999 at April 16, 2007 1:05 PM
I hope the kitchen in the photo is not in the owner's unit. Black tile backsplash?? How cheery.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 1:20 PM
It's a shame some people feel so comfortable lashing out like that from the safety of an anonymous comment. Brownstoner provides, imo, the best online forum for discussing Brooklyn real estate. I, for one, find that valuable. If his opinions, and the discussions in the comments, are so useless to you, why read? Why take the time to comment, 12:49?
Posted by: CL at April 16, 2007 1:26 PM
I thought Anon 12:49 liked this site.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 1:35 PM
This thread reminds me of how someone once referred to many of Brownstoner's blind followers as a "claque of kooks"!
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 1:40 PM
re:12:49
i'm always so amazed by people who obsessively read a site that they hate and/or disrespect. just such a really really weird side-effect of the internet.
Brownstoner, your site is awesome & your work commendable. even when i don't agree with you, i'm incredibly grateful the site exists.
(oh, and i DO agree the kitchen in this house sucks. some friends of mine just did a gorgeous rehab of their kitchen on the cheap. i don't know why, for flippers, it's so hard...)
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 1:57 PM
OK well getting back on topic here...
This HOTD looks like it actually has very little original detail left... looks like they've done a fix-up job with gyp board and new moldings and so on, based on a what I've seen at other houses on this stretch of Lefferts Ave. The cheapo parquet floors are definitely new. And that front door - ugh!
Frankly, it seems to me that there was more original detail in 285 Lefferts, which sold 6 months ago for $658K. Then again, prices do seem to be going up on Lefferts Ave.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 1:58 PM
No one who responded to 12:49's attack on Brownstoner follows him (Mr. B) or it (the site) blindly. Brownstoner's own posts make it clear that he is initiating discussions, not offering be all and end all proclamations on the state of the market. As the above posters defending Brownstoner make clear, they are defending the service the site provides, not the opinions per se. Mr. B's own opinions help trigger what is often (hopefully) an informative discussion, but no one, least of all Mr. B, is "blindly" following the site. Some of us "kooks" have put a lot of time, sweat and money into what we own, whether as homeowners, investors or whatever, and this site helps us keep aware of what is going on in terms of the market, renovations, legal developments, etc. Mr. B's own mild provocations keep it real and interesting. So, 12:49 and 1:40 (whether you are one or two people) if this site is of no value to you and we are all a claque of kooks, take it elsewhere.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 2:09 PM
Prices in PLG and Bed Stuy seem to have doubled or trippled in the last year or two.
Who knows? If prices keep rising, maybe you won't be able to get anything at all for under a million this time next year even in borderline hoods in Brooklyn.
Remember, you can't fairly compare this house to what sold even a few months ago. A fair comparison is what is actually on the market TODAY.
Posted by: Jake the Snake at April 16, 2007 2:36 PM
I'm amazed when a blogger comments anonymously on his own site!
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 2:43 PM
Yeah, perhaps the person who doth protest much is the flipper. I could see why she'd be "miffed" as Brownstoner has exposed a what, near 90%mark-up on an 18 month deal. To say it's aggressive sounds pretty kind to me. Ok, in fairness-maybe it wasn't a flip, but a job transfer???
But this is America and this info is public record. I don't blame Brownstoner for commenting on whether or not he thinks it's a good deal. If a buyer thinks so, then the marketplace will ultimately determine the price, no matter what anyone thinks.
I think Brownstoner provides an invaluable service-I've learned a lot since reading it and I would not want to be a naive buyer or seller. And the frequent "flipping" going on in Brooklyn should be discussed. Thanks to Mr.Brownstoner for lighting a candle.
Posted by: Anon at April 16, 2007 2:56 PM
In response to 2:36, the aparent doubling of prices is due to homes that were fixed up. 181 Midwood, asking 925K, was bought in '03 for around 400K. But I bought an identical house in better shape on Maple II in '01 for 525K. And a similar home on Rutland sold that year for 550K. Based on comps I'd say my house is worth around 975K now, which is less than 50% increase in 6 years.
Posted by: lm at April 16, 2007 3:12 PM
Sorry--bad math. My house increased by less than 100% in 6 years.
Posted by: lm at April 16, 2007 3:31 PM
The photographs on the listing are SO poor that I can't tell very much about the condition of this house.
Both blocks of Lefferts Ave. in the PLG Historic District (Bedford--Rogers and Rogers--Nostrand) have similar brick and terra-cotta houses. Here are exerpts of the description, from the 1979 LPC Designation Report (the similar houses are described as a group,so there's no useful listing for no. 250 alone (except that there's a mention that the door replacement was already there when the report was written:
"Lefferts Avenue is a wide street containing 108 similar, modest, two-family houses erected in 1905-06. The street also has the only apartment building in the Historic District….
Nos. 139-215. nos. 143, 157, 167, 177, 189, 201, and 213 have been omitted
from the street numbering). The thirty-two small two-family rowhouses on this blockfront were designed in 1906 by architect Frank S. laws for the Kingston Realty Company. the houses, identical to those on the south side of the street, are similar to the rows built by Kingston Realty on Lefferts Avenue between Rogers
and Nostrand Avenues. All of the houses are constructed of brick ornamented with areas of unglazed terra-cotta. Two different designs were used for the houses
between Bedford and Rogers Avenues—one type with. rounded bays ("A" houses) and another type with three-sided angular bays ("B" houses). Although extremely simple vernacular buildings, these houses use ornamental detail that can be traced to
French Renaissance precedents…
The "A" houses are faced with white brick and have prominent, three-window-wide bays. Modest stoops with stepped wing walls lead to double-doored entrances which have clear-glass transom lights. Each entrance is surmounted by a terra-cotta
entablature that rests on foliate brackets and is ornamented with anthemion friezes.
Above each entrance is a single rectangular window topped by a splayed lintel ornamented by a raised keystone. The six windows of each bay are surrounded by a terra-cotta enframement. The windows are flanked by stylized Corinthian pilasters,
each with a centrally-placed lozenge form- A band with larger lozenges separates the first and second floors. Additional interest is provided by leaded-glass transom lights on the parlor level and by a continuous, galvanized-iron, dentilated cornice.
The "B" houses are dominated by three-sided angular bays, each clad in terra-cotta. These houses are constructed of red brick and, like the "A" houses, have modest stoops, stepped wing walls, double-doored entrances, terra-cotta doorway lintels with anthemion friezes, clear-glass transom lights above the doors,
leaded-glass transom lights at the parlor floor windows, and continuous dentilled cornices. The windows of the angular-bays are set within an enframement high-lighted by a foliate molding. A wide band of heavy, three-dimensional carving separates the window of the first and second floors. All of the second floor
windows are crowned by single modest anthemia….
Nos, 241-301. (Nos. 243,, 255, 265, 283, 295, and 303 have been omitted from the
street numbering). these twenty-six houses, designed in 1905 by Frank S. Lowe for the
Kingston Realty Company are similar to the row described at 139-215 Lefferts Avenue.
but they are more ornate than those between Bedford and Rogers Avenues. Above the
doorway lintels of the rounded-bayed "A" houses are large shell forms not found on the rows to the west. the angular-bayed "B" houses also have more elaborate door-way lintels. Here, slab lintels support cartouche-like panels that are flanked by volutes. The window above the doorway of each "B" house is set within an ornate
terra-cotta enframement similar to those surrounding the windows of the bays.
Nos. 242-302. (Nos. 248, 260, 270, 284, 296, and 304 have been omitted from the street numbering). are identical to the row across the street at 241-301
Lefferts Avenue.
Alterations are limited to doorway hoods, iron work, and new doors at Nos. 242, 244, 250, 252, 254 262, 268, 272, 280, 292, and 300".
FWIW I prefer 181 Midwood, the previous PLG HOTD, (after all--it's my block) but, for some people the possibility of a rental apartment, on this block outside of Lefferts Manor, will be a plus.
About the attacks on Jon Band his site, I can't imagine why anyone who dislikes the site somuch would bother to read it.
I will NOT be commenting further on this particular thread--I wish I could sign in with Typekey, but, as far as I can tell,it hasn't been working on Brownstoner for many days.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at April 16, 2007 3:33 PM
Or perhaps some people like the purpose of the site, save for the opinions of the owner of it. Frankly, I think there's a bit of ego in Brownstoner's posts. I wish he'd be more neutral and not beat the same dead horse over and over again. But I'm certainly happy the site provides the forum that it does.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 3:38 PM
If your opinions differ so wildly so as to comment here in such a pathetic and useless manner, GO START YOUR OWN BLOG!!!!!
To criticize someone who is writing their own blog (thus opinions) is literally one of the most ignorant things you could say.
Posted by: anon at April 16, 2007 3:44 PM
perhaps the site name www.ilovefedders.com is open for you to take!
Posted by: anon at April 16, 2007 3:45 PM
I'm amazed when a blogger comments anonymously on his own site!
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 3:47 PM
It would be pretty dull if we expressed no opinion. We might as well just copy the text of the listing and leave it at that. As one commenter above accurately pointed out, we see our role in these HOTD posts as a conversation-starter and issue-raiser, not an oracle. If we didn't take a stance, there would be very little for commenters to respond to. Writing this stuff would get boring fast, as well.
Posted by: brownstoner at April 16, 2007 3:48 PM
This site is great, and it provides a fantastic forum, but let's stop fellating its creator. He's great at accumulating information, but he also is quite opinionated, and this is at odds with his desire publicize and expand his site as THE objective authority when it comes to discussing brownstone Brooklyn.
Why does everyone have to see everything as either black or white? Whatever happened to subtlety?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 3:52 PM
Back to the topic, while some might prefer a two-family, being on Maple or Midwood is worth a good deal over being on Lefferts.
And "lm" is right that most homes in PLG have actually appreciated very slowly in comparison to other areas. I have friends who bought a house in the same row as 181 Midwood for 850K about 2 years ago.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 3:55 PM
I don't think it's necessary to take such an opinionated stance. If you present a house, I'm sure the people who post here will have no problem voicing their opinions as to pricing or the interior design. An opinion which is too strong at the outset functions like a leading question.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 3:55 PM
to those that think that mr. b is too opinionated or that he should so this or that...i'm just curious...can we then tell you how to raise your children or what you should do for a living, or what to eat for dinner tonight.
it's HIS freaking website that he started. if he wants to make opinions, that's his right. if you think they are so outlandish or ridiculous, stop reading.
there are tons of us who enjoy, value and love this site while still retaining the ability to think for ourselves, disagree, agree, speak like we weren't just released from ryker's island, etc.
Posted by: anonymous at April 16, 2007 4:02 PM
Back to the topic at hand. Prices in PLG have at least doubled since 2002. But in the last year or so they were pretty flat. This buying season, they picked up quite a bit. Whoever gets this house at $879K will learn five years from now that they got a bargain. Can you get anything remotely this good in Brooklyn at this price?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 4:05 PM
It does seem like prices have started to uptick in PLG this year and there is still a lot of upside as people discover the nabe.
But that doesn't mean this house is a great deal.
Even though some buyers might want the extra rental income from an apartment, I don't think you can compare this block to the best in the manor, by any stretch.
I'd definitely take 181 midwood over this in a flash
Posted by: tripster at April 16, 2007 4:09 PM
I think that maintaining this website means sometimes having to put hip boots on to wade through some of the sluge that makes it to this site. I admire Brownstoner's fortitude and persistence to produce the site which contains so much valuable information and which provides a forum for Brownstoners to weigh in with their own information, experience, suggestions, etc. He even continues to dare to post on PLG. Imagine! Thank you.
Posted by: donatella at April 16, 2007 4:14 PM
IMO im LMA FWIW BTW FSBO is NIMBY
So YMMV with this HOTD in PLG
Posted by: Lefferts Man at April 16, 2007 4:17 PM
Back to topic. I agree that the Midwood House is more undervalued than the Lefferts Ave House, and if I had the money, I'd go for Midwood Street. However, if someone is just starting out, the Lefferts Ave house provides the owner with a huge duplex plus a 1000 sq. ft. rental apartment, which could fetch well over $1500/mo., depending on layout.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 4:20 PM
do you realize that saying back to topic is like those most annoying kiss ass kids in elementary school that couldn't shut their faces and had to kiss the teacher's butt at every moment...
if you want to move back to the topic, just do it. announcing that you're doing it makes you seem BEYOND childish.
Posted by: anon at April 16, 2007 4:22 PM
I also agree. There is tons of sluge on this site. Brownstoner does so much to help us out, yet his work regularly goes unnoticed. I too admire his fortitude and persistence. He's noble and selfless, and bestows so much goodness on our beloved borough without receiving the slightest compensation or reward.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 4:26 PM
Sure, single family houses in LM are typically in better shape than the 2-fams nearby, and the streets in the manor are generally nicer. But the attractive thing about this place is that someone who wouldn't normally be able to afford a house in this price range may be able to swing it with the rental unit. Makes it an attractive option, since landmarked legal 2-fams are hard to come by in this nabe.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 4:27 PM
Lefferts Man,
ROTFLBSOOMN !
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 4:30 PM
I think this place is way over priced. Its clearly a very cheap renovation. The parquet they used is awful (very clearly not the original and not very attractive). Cheap renovations to me are worse than a fixer upper b/c you have to figure the person renovating put in as little cash as possible into the house which means he probably never touched the mechanicals. So you will end up having to take out all that 'renovation' you are paying for to fix all the things that were left broken by the previous work done. Its sad too b/c this could be a beautiful place.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 4:52 PM
Anon 4:20 - owner's duplex? This is a 2 story house with a basement. And the basements on this block are pretty basementy (low ceilings, bulkhead doors to back yard, boiler, meters, water main, etc.)
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 4:59 PM
Yes, this is two 1,000 square foot apartments, each with 2 bedrooms. No owner's duplex. And I agree that compared to other things on the market nearby, this is way overpriced.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 5:03 PM
I also noticed that a victorian(?) in LG on A&H listing along with the 250 Lefferts.
http://ahrlty.com/H-99A/H-99A.html
Has anyone seen it?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 16, 2007 5:33 PM
I love Mr Brownstoner. Wonks are sexy!
Anyway, my labido aside.... I don't think it's really that over priced. It's got 1300 sq ft more than the Midwood place! Come on people! You could friggin rollerskate in the livingroom! That's got to count for something
Posted by: ImNotYourDaddy at April 16, 2007 9:09 PM
I know we love accessing Property Shark, but how much does purchase and sale price really say, when PLG has a lot of older residents who have lived in the houses all their lives and their houses often need a lot of work and sell for under market value. Then later for a great deal more, after work is done.
That said, you do want to clearly see where the money was spent. It's not showing in this case. But if most of the money was perhaps spent on updating mechanicals then that's a case where this price would be worth it. Right? It would be worth it to me. Both times I've never managed to buy an old house where I only had to do fun cosmetic renovations because the mechanicals were brand new. Quite the opposite! Sadly.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 12:10 PM
In PLG, many homeowners or estates sell or transfer title to their homes at prices well below what the market would bear because they don't know any better. These homes are undervalued. However, a cursory inspection of Property Shark appears to lead many amateurs to misinterpret comps.
But what's all this anger at people who "flip" houses? I have never flipped a house, but frankly, I wish I was so lucky to buy something that's undervalued. I don't admire speculators (of the sort that existed in the Vegas or Florida condo market) because they artificially jacked up prices before demand even existed. It was like a pyramid scheme and the last ones to buy suffered when the bubble burst and they had to rent their units for below market because they wouldn't sell.
But NYC is such a tight market (with high demand and low vacancies) that "flipping" is rare and can't possibly artificially inflate prices. In fact, I'd go as far to say that if you can flip in NYC, you are both lucky and smart.
Why are Brownstoner and some others on this site so bitter towards those who flip? Are they upset because they didn't get the biggest piece of cake? I know that it wouldn't exactly thrill me if the homeowner from whom I bought made a huge profit. But then, I'm not thrilled that some kids are grow up rich and spoiled on the Upper East Side of Manhattan and attend private Ivy League universities while others are reared in dismal ghettos in Brooklyn and never graduate from high school. I'm also not thrilled I haven't won the lottery. But hey - life isn't fair.
Posted by: Anon at April 17, 2007 12:59 PM
ImNotYourDaddy - what makes you think this house has 1300 s.f. more than the Midwood house? If anything it is only marginally larger (like maybe 100 s.f.)
Regarding comps, a lot of houses in PLG also get transferred from one family member to another for a below market price.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 1:26 PM
"...These homes are undervalued. However, a cursory inspection of Property Shark appears to lead many amateurs to misinterpret comps....
...frankly, I wish I was so lucky to buy something that's undervalued".
This has long been the case here, way before PropertyShark.
I bought my house in the mid-70s from the nephew of an elderly women who was confined to a nursing home. He lived on eastern L.I. and seemed to be afraid to visit Brooklyn. His "research" seemed to be limited to asking the families on either side what they had paid. I also got the impression that the family was VERY wealthy and thought of the house's value as "pocket change." I bought my house for exactly 1/2 the price of another on the same block on which I had been negotiating.
I know--I said I wouldn't post again on this thread--that's why I'm signing this as
Anon.
Posted by: "anon" at April 17, 2007 2:05 PM
This is my block, and I've followed this house's story via neighborhood gossip -- they did a crap, quickie renovation, and are now asking way too much money for the place.
But it seems like too many people are jumping to the conclusion that they can lure Manhattanites, both as renters and buyers, here and get them to pay crazy prices, because it still seems a steal compared to Manhattan prices (and/or because Manhattanites are clueless about Brooklyn).
My concerns is what a crazy run-up in prices will do to the character of my neighborhood, and where my neighbors (and I), who are good, hardworking members of the middle class, will live. Or are "nice" areas to be reserved only for the rich? I'm all for an improvement in services here and a decrease in certain elements (how many nail salons does one neighborhood need, exactly?), but not at the expense of turning into Park Slope and driving out my friends and neighbors.
Posted by: babs at April 17, 2007 2:58 PM
$879K for a Brooklyn townhouse that's a couple of blocks from Prospect Park does not represent a "crazy run up of prices" no matter how you slice it. It's a total bargain, and in no way implies that PLG is on its way to becoming Park Slope. You should reserve that comment for when townhomes cost $2,000,000.
Babs, I'm surprised that a broker like you would allow her political agenda to obscure her otherwise on-point judgment and reasoning abilities. Come back down to earth - we liked you before!
Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 3:38 PM
12:59pm is so right.
Why is it Brownstoner, you are always derisive of "flippers" as you call them? I thought the point of your whole blog was to support and inform people who are saving and renovating old houses, and encourage more people to do that. Tell me then, what on earth is the motivation for anybody to spend so much money and hard work and time renovating an old house, if they aren't going to make their money back? Or even make a profit? (the horror)
I'm not saying this particular house is a case where the seller is just trying to get his money back, because it does look like a quick cheap reno not a pricey reno, but I had to chime in with 12:59pm and say that I too have noticed many many times from Brownstoner a very unfair, needless, baseless bashing of anybody who managed to pick up a property for a bargain then turn it around and sell it. This is a capitalist free market last we checked. Please explain your position and what's behind your hatred of flipping real estate as a general concept or practice.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 3:48 PM
I think Brownstoner hates flippers because he was reared in a dismal Brooklyn ghetto and never graduated high school.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 4:40 PM
Anon 1:26
Check out property shark. They list this place at 3192 sq ft. Midwood is only 1800.... do the math
Posted by: ImNotYourDaddy at April 17, 2007 7:53 PM
ImNotYourDaddy,
I've seen the Sq.Ft.figures on propertyshark, but I think there's an error--they must be counting the "English basement" on the Lefferts Ave. house, but not on the Midwood St. one. The Lefferts Ave. house IS slightly larger, but it's only 5' deeper and the same width.
Posted by: "anon" at April 17, 2007 8:30 PM
I don't mean to be putting forth a politcal agenda, but I think this house is wildly overpriced for this neighborhood - in which I live and which I like very much - as it is now. Obviously it is changing, and the question is, into what? And if one were to buy this place at ask, with 10% down, mortgage payments would be approx. $4875/mo. at 6.25% for 30 years -- really the maximum you could get for that upstairs would be $2000/mo. (and that is way over current market), so for $2875 you could have the downstairs. There's a lot fo gentrification already built into that price.
As a real estate agent, obviously I am concerned with getting my clients the best price for their property, but allowing and/or encouraging a deluded client to ask an unrealistic price is not service.
As a person, I am concerned about the future of my neighborhood -- and as I've said before, if I wanted to live in Park Slope, I'd move there -- even if it meant waiting for a miniscule studio.
In terms of square footage, I rent in a house just like this one -- they absolutely must be including the English basement in the square footage calculation -- figure 1000 sq. ft./floor -- there are only two floors, plus the basement, which is often rented out in these, although they are mostly 2 family houses per the C of O.
Posted by: babs at April 17, 2007 9:10 PM
I don't think this house is overpriced. If you don't want to live in a gentrifying neighborhood, you should leave PLG promptly, because it's pretty clear the way that things are going. Fortunately, PLG is gentrifying in a multi-racial manner, like Fort Greene. But this is the big city, and the most desirable places become the most expensive quickly. So it may not become Park Slope per se, but it will most definitely gentrify. And Park Slope is not all bad. It still has a wonderful food co-op and interesting stores and restaurants
Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 9:36 PM
Of course they are including the English Basement in the listing, because it's quite usable space!
I can understand the sympathy towards things that are lost when a neighborhood gentrifies. People will inevitably be displaced, including many renters who will be forced to buy elsewhere by the time they save up enough money to buy a house.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 9:49 PM
Hey, Anon 9:36, I certainly hope you're right about the future of this neighborhood. Of course there are many nice things about Park Slope, but I MUCH prefer Fort Greene (apart from the menace of Ratnerville -- that's one more thing I like about PLG -- we're far enough away from that looming disaster)! And of course I want to live in a "gentrified" neighobrhood, the question is, in what way will that gentrification proceed? And I still think this house is overpriced, in terms of location (not all that close to the park -- just one block over would make a difference) and, especially, the quality of the "renovations."
Posted by: babs at April 17, 2007 10:04 PM
And the English basement level may be useable, but it retains a very "basement" feel -- you're down there with the boiler, below grade, and don't get a lot of light -- very different from the garden level of larger houses, which have a true basement below that.
Posted by: babs at April 17, 2007 10:06 PM
PropertyShark often has the basements incorrectly listed in the sq. footage. My house (4 blocks from here) is listed at 3,492 sq. ft. but I know (because I've measured) that the real square footage is about 2200.
Even though it includes the basement in the square footage, it still lists the building as a 2-story.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 10:18 PM
I've seen many renovated English basements which are the third floor in what's typically called a "two-story" home, and these basements don't feel at all like one. They have boilers and hot water heaters and laundry hidden behind partitions or access doors. And then they have lovely, open, renovated space. They have windows and egresses and get sunlight too. They are generally three or four feet below grade, not entirely below grade like cellers in homes with a "garden" floor and a stoop. They may not be quite as light filled as garden levels, but in terms of habitability, they are much more garden level than cellar, so it's quite misleading to confuse the two.
Basically, those who are concerned that PLG is becoming unaffordable like to call these English basements "cellars" because it justifies a lower a price. Treating them as usable, livable space (which they most certainly are) leads to a higher valuation.
That's just my two cents.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 10:35 PM
No one is saying that "English basements" aren't usable space. However, Property Shark is inconsistant about including them in Sq. Ft. totals. That's why this house is listed as being so much larger than the previous PLG HOTD which is actually only about 400 Sq. Ft. smaller than this one--Prop Shark incorrectly has about a 1200 or 1300 Sq. Ft. difference.
Posted by: "anon" at April 18, 2007 8:42 AM
Obviously Property Shark needs to be inconsistent. But people are saying that this house is too small to be worth its asking price because it has an unusable space, and I'm contesting that assumption.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 9:41 AM
oops - i meant property shark needs to be consistent!
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 9:42 AM
I have a lovable, renovated English Basement. The boiler etc are in a closet area and the rest is a family room, which we use daily. But it is totally basement space and should NOT be counted in the square footage the way that the other floors are. It is exactly like a free-standing suburban house with a "walk-out basement"-- those are never counted in the square footage, even though they can have playrooms, gyms, movie theaters, etc.
I live in PLG and I totally disagree with the above posters. Unless someone buys every apartment building on Flatbush avenue and knocks them down, there will always be a huge very poor population here--and all of things that go with it. And we are spitting distance from the poorest areas in Brooklyn. People who think the area is on the brink of major change are deluding themselves. There are some changes happening, but the basic core of the population and feel of the area won't really change.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 12:26 PM
That's just not true. What part of PLG do you live in? I live in Lefferts Manor and I have an English Basement. I have noticed an enormous change in the local population. Try watching who goes in and out of the subway at rush hour. There has been a huge influx of young professional or artsy college-grads to the area.
And regarding your english basement, mine is a renovated entertainment room. It does not feel like a cellar.
I agree with you on one point, however. An english basement resembles a home which is partially below grade and has a walkout basement (which has two foot windows). That's very different than a cellar - my friend's have one, and it's musty and dark and smelly in a way my english basement never is!
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 12:45 PM
You don't know what the hell you're talking about 12:45PM and my guess is you're just the troll. Piss off, please.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 12:51 PM
Wait a minute - the troll would NEVER admit that the population in Lefferts Manor is changing. Nor would he discuss the merits of english basements! His goal is to scare people off, so he exaggerates crime statistics!
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 12:56 PM
And don't tell me to piss off because I like my English Basement, and don't consider it to be the same as a cellar. Why does everyone have to agree with you or else be subjected to your hostility?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 12:59 PM
I think 12:51 meant to tell me, 12:26, to piss off. And *#@&# him for calling me a troll. I live in Lefferts Manor too. And I agree that lots of new people are moving in to the area--to the Ocean Ave buildings and some on Lincoln. However the population of the Flatbush buildings has not changed at all and will never change (short of someone knocking down all those buildings). And that population is at least twice the size of the population in the nicer buildings and the brownstones combined. My point was that as things change there will still always be a huge poor poulation--and with that there will always be nail salons, cheap scuzy stores, drug trafficking, loitering etc. I love the area as it is, but you need to accept te limits on the possible changes in our particualr neck of the woods. It'll never be a slope or fort greene. Which is fine by me.
As for english basements, you basically agreed with me: they can be nice, but they are the same as walk-out basements.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 1:25 PM
I don't agree with your assessment regarding Flatbush. I understand the origin of your concern, and it's makes good sense. But that area is changing too, albeit more slowly.
There are many tenants in those buildings with problematic leases (such as RC leases obtained illegally) and rent-payment issues. There have been a number of evictions lately as a result. Landlords used to endure bad tenants because they were better than no tenants when the applicant pool consisted primarily of only bad tenants; however, now that there is an increase in demand from better quality tenants (i.e., employed, recent college grads), landlords want the bad tenants to go, and are making the buildings more attractive to the new tenants (i.e., fixing up their buildings). Landlords love young, employed college grads for another reason - they only stay a short while, and that means the landlord can jack up the rent each time the apartment turns over. Who wants a Section 8 tenant who causes trouble and occupies a unit forever?
Does anyone know if landlords are obligated to maintain Section 8 leases? Can they stop participating in the program at will and evict a tenant?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 1:46 PM
I should add, there is nothing wrong with a law-abiding, rent-paying tenant who happens not to earn much money. It's not "poor people" per se that bring down Flatbush. It's people who lack the ability to respect themselves and others.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 1:52 PM
I wrote a long response, but it got lost in the approval/loading. Suffice it to say that I think what you are talking about is only true in a very very small percentage of the buildings. There has been no change in the buildings along Fenimore, Rutland, Beekman, Chester, etc, which are almost 100% section 8 and are far too run-down for a college grad or artist to consider. The only way to change those buildings to evict everyone and gut them. And that isn't happening in the next 5-10 years.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 2:01 PM
Sorry - I was talking about Prime PLG. Not Beekman or Chester Court or Fenimore.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 2:44 PM
But 2:44 that is Prime PLG--in fact it is Prime Lefferts Manor! If you live on Rutland you have to walk along Flatbush and Rutland across from Chester and past Beekman. And if you live one block north on Midwood you are certainly affected by Flatbush and Rutland--it is only 200 feet away!You can't say the neighborhood is totally changing, oh but I don't mean the main street through half the neighborhood! That is the neighborhood.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 2:55 PM
Why wouldn't you walk up Bedford Avenue?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 3:07 PM
Landlords must continue to honor existing Section 8 tenants, but they are not required to accept new ones (and most don't). The problem with many of these buildings is not Section 8 tenants, but many leases that were given over to various City agencies in the bad old days, with the apartments used for "warehousing" participants in various homelessness and/or drug treatment prgorams -- now, years later, the occupants in many cases have absolutely nothing to do with the original tenants, or any City program, and rent payments are sproadic at best. Many of thelandlords in the area spend most of their days in Landlord-Tenant Court evicting non-paying tenants.
I have rented apartments to various young professional/artist types in several buildings on these streets, with varying results -- some people are very happy and report no problems, some are not -- pretty par for the couse, I'd say. Like anywhere else, a creepy neighbor can totally ruin your life, and, as we all know, drug dealing is a fact of life in NYC -- it goes on in every neighborhood, and even when you don't see it, it's there. On the other hand, where else are you going to get a renovated, rent-stabilized studio apartment in an elevator building this close to Prospect (or any other major) Park for $1000?
And the makeup of this neighborhood is changing -- as someone said above -- just look at the people getting off the subway at the end of the day - and not just the Q, but even over by me at the 2 and 5. I'm amazed myself at where I see some of these people going.
And space has nothing (or not all that much) to do with it -- that house is overpriced because it's a crappy renovation (and there's a dumpster parked out front now, and I saw workmen this morning removing garbage and construction debris out the front door - my neighbor says it was all in the back yard -- must have been lovely at the last open houses).
Posted by: babs at April 18, 2007 3:08 PM
And are troubled by walking by buildings with Section 8 tenants or by living in them? Anyway, I've always thought Midwood Street and Rutland Road were overrated in comparison to Lincoln and Maple, but that seems not to be everyone's consensus.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 3:11 PM
Right on, 1:52, it's about those who don't respect themselves or others. It's not a bad thing to wish for those kinds of people to be gone from our neighborhoods. NYC should seize all those Section 8 apartment buildings and turn them into affordable apartments for teachers, police, firemen, and other city workers. It would vastly improve entire neighborhoods, and it would support these people who serve us but struggle to find affordable housing and make ends meet on their low pay. As for people who don't have any real reason for being in NYC, like who don't have jobs or don't contribute in any way to our communities, why are we required to provide them with a place to live? They can move to more affordable places in the country. Some people getting priced out of NYC is not a bad thing. I just wish the city had an actual plan as to how to keep the good, hardworking people of low income, in the city.
Right now so many NYPD officers live outside the city. Which is terrible. Cops living inside our NYC neighborhoods is such a good thing for the city. Even the already gentrified nabes would benefit from that. Handing out rent control and Section 8 apartments willy nilly to anybody is absurd. It is not a plan of any kind.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 3:11 PM
Babs, yes, but again I don't think you're talking about the buildings on flatbush. Alone, those buildings have thousands of tennants--which means PLG will continue to have thousands of section 8 and other very poor people. Which in turn means that the "lower" levels of stores on Flatbush will continue to have clientele, and there will continue to be drug dealing and loitering on many corners of Flatbush. Again, I agree that many new people are moving in to the area, but my point is that many others are not moving and will continue to be a major presence.
As for 2:55's question about Bedford: so you're saying the neighborhood is becoming gentrified, but just don't walk on the main street? As it happens I live closer to Flatbush and walking on Beford is out of the way.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 3:16 PM
Developers need to look at that amazing spot at the corner of Empire and Flatbush where Wendy's is, for a potential highrise condo. A condo on that corner would overlook the park AND the Brooklyn Botanic Garden both. As well as have an express train (Q) literally right across the street. I ain't Trump, but it's like hello, so perfect.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 3:29 PM
"There has been no change in the buildings along Fenimore, Rutland, Beekman, Chester, etc, which are almost 100% section 8 and are far too run-down for a college grad or artist to consider."
I find it hard to imagine that any space with walls, floors, and a roof that keeps out the rain is "too run-down for a(n)...artist to consider" Look at the E. Village 40 years ago, LES 20 years ago, Bushwick or the South Bronx today.
Posted by: "anon" at April 18, 2007 3:43 PM
3:43, point taken. All I can say is that I walk by those buildings everyday twice a day and have yet to see anyone looking like an artist going into them.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 4:06 PM
Well, the buildings on the corner of Midwood and Flatbush, Maple and Flatbush, Ocean Avenue, Lefferts Avenue and all along Lincoln Road are chock full of artistic types and young professionals.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 4:08 PM
Exactly, 3:43pm. And remember unless they got into a rent control apt early in the hipper nabes, most young people don't get much of a choice where they live in NYC. Rent is too high in Park Slope for the "young hip renters" (YHR's?). It's not just the young ones. I know a couple people in their early 30's who have good jobs making decent money, who found they can't afford Park Slope, Cobble Hill, or Fort Greene rents. Because they actually want to have income left over for their savings, so they can buy too some day.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 4:12 PM
4:08, yes, I agree with that, as I said before. Although, "chock full" is a huge exageration, and Lincoln and Flatbush still has major loitering problems, but whatever. Point is that the other side of flatbush and the southern end (Rutland on down) hasn't changed, won't change. And that keeps the neighborhood from changing. In 10 years Flatbush will look pretty much as it does today--which is pretty much as it did 10 years ago. There may be some new stores, but the ovrall feel will be same.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 4:21 PM
Literally all those we know on Maple Street work in media. Film, internet, music. We all may just not be out walking around much! Stuck inside at our computers all day. (sigh) Plus most people have cars and do use them often. So they aren't seen on the sidewalks or subways as much perhaps.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 4:25 PM
Thing is, 4:21, actually it does happen that way sometimes. There will be a long time of a neighborhood always staying the same, then boom, a sudden change over the period of a couple years. We've seen it happen in many many parts of Brooklyn. It's not accurate to say because a place hasn't seen much change in 10 to 20 years, that means it will never ever change. That's not evidence in itself. The formerly longtime economically depressed sections of cities all over the country have been seeing major renewals. It is SO not unique to Brooklyn.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 4:56 PM
4:08pm - I can't believe we live in the same neighborhood! I'm on the corner of Lincoln and Flatbush very often, and although there is a little bit of loitering, I don't think it occurs any more often than what occurs near most subway stations in the city. Are you new to the city?
Also, anyone who's been in the neighborhood for more than a year or two knows that the loitering is way down from what it used to be.
I agree that areas beyond Rutland face slower change, but to state that the neighborhood will not change at all is really quite silly. I have lived in Brooklyn for several decades, and I have witnessed enormous changes in every neighborhood I have lived in. Also, PLG is quite different than it was 10 years ago.
If I may be so nosey - how old are you?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 4:56 PM
I was talking to 4:21pm, not 4:08pm.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 4:58 PM
I'll admit it, I myself see loitering sometimes! But I also see the local cops from the fabulous 71st precinct busting it up. They do good work.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 5:00 PM
You guys are such jerks. I'm 55. I was born in NYC. I've lived in Lefferts Manor for 11 years.
I never said the area wouldn't change at all--I said that Flatbush won't change much. Not because it hasn't yet, but because the majority of the population along Flatbush won't change, and therefore Flatbush won't change.
As for Loitering, there has certainly been an improvement in the last few years, but the issue is still a huge problem along the corners of Rutland and Fenimore, and the cops never bust that up--and on the few occasions that they do, the group reforms the next night. As for Lincoln and Flatbush, wait until the summer nights.
I've lived in Brooklyn for about 30 years and seen many neighborhoods change overnight. The fact is that PLG has a different set of circumstances than most other areas and certain parts of it are not going to change for a really long time. You can ignore that fact if you wish.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 5:09 PM
It's true, 5:09, PLG has its unique challenges for sure, that other neighborhoods didn't have. I feel the frustration also.
But I do think it's not impossible for the right combination of factors to move along change more quickly. The change in renters could a big factor. I didn't mean for my tone to sound rude before, if it came across that way.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 5:27 PM
5::27, no problem--unintended, perceived rudeness is common in email and on blogs.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 18, 2007 8:18 PM
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