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April 5, 2007

House of the Day: 428 East 18th Street

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Any house under a million bucks these days is going to come with its set of drawbacks. In the case of 428 East 18th Street, the list appears to include some less-than-attractive siding and a lack of privacy in the backyard. If you can get beyond those two things, though, this place might start to look good to you. The house is priced at $899,000 but we hear that the highest offer to come in so far is around $820,000, so it sounds like there's some room to wheel and deal. We're digging the nice floors and the two-car garage (with plumbing!). How's this block in general?
428 East 18th Street [Brooklyn Hearth] GMAP P*Shark
428 East 18th Street [Mary Kay Gallagher]




Posted by Brownstoner at 12:02 PM | Comments (54)

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pros- near burgeoning Cortelyou and all the incoming amenities. close to subway. 2 family houses not all that common in Vic. Flatbush.

cons- for Vic. Flatbush, this block is not the most charming. house needs work.

I guess the price reflects the pros/cons, though i would say 850 at most. Then again, there is nothing (!!) in this hood available at this low a price so for someone who values convenience over charm and is willing to do a bit of work, it might be right.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 12:14 PM

It's on a block that is mostly massive apt bldgs. The nabe is coming along (recent arrival myself) and Cortelyou is improving but more in the other direction, toward Marlborough. There doesn't seem to be much original detail left, the kitchen looks just awful & it looks like there's a lot of wallpaper to be removed. Small house as well compared to most in the area ... anyone who pays more than $850k is nuts or just salivates at the idea of owning a Victorian under $1MM. I'll walk by it on my way home today.

Posted by: TAG482 at April 5, 2007 12:25 PM

i looked at this place a few weeks ago, it was downright frightening inside.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 12:27 PM

What looked frightening? The photos of the interior certainly don't make it look scary.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 12:42 PM

Nice house, not at all frightening, will need everything redone from windows to hvac, no biggie.
I think 500,000 would do a nice, not super, job. Including a nice high fence in the backyard. It all boils down to location, is 1.4 mil a good investment on this block?

Posted by: Serge at April 5, 2007 1:14 PM

the siding is no problem, easily fixable. But being overlooked by that huge block - who would ever want to live like that if they had the choice?

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 1:17 PM

Floors like nice, house is on the small side, backing onto big buildings isn't the greatest thing. I would think the owner really wants to sell since they've listed with multiple brokers. Usually folks list only with Mary Kay. There are other houses under $1 mil avail--houses that need lots of work. And there are some 2-families in much better shape, closer to express trains, with larger footprints avail. for over $1 mil, but with rental income that more than offsets the increased cost. Re-doing siding would set you back a pretty penny, that's for sure. Is it in a historically protected area? If so, all reno's would be even more expensive because you'd not have the option of vinyl siding or windows...I'd talk to Mary Kay if I wanted to move to Ditmas. We foolishly bought in Ditmas without using Mary Kay, and are only now learning our mistakes.

Posted by: Anon at April 5, 2007 1:17 PM

This is the only time I've ever disagreed with Serge. The contractor we're using now (for a home in the area) could do this for under 200G, not including purchasing appliances.

Posted by: west at April 5, 2007 1:22 PM

500K for a reno of this place? you're kidding, right???

and it was FRIGHTENING inside???

lord, you people are out of touch with reality.

a bunch of p*ssies.

Posted by: anon at April 5, 2007 1:27 PM

This house is not landmarked. The landmarked homes are from E 16th to Ocean Ave btw Dorchester & Ditmas. I for one think that landmark status is a huge positive when buying in this area given what atrocities some people have created as additions to these historic homes. What's a little extra time & paperwork when it means you're protected from idiots with bad taste?

Posted by: tag482 at April 5, 2007 1:34 PM

West,
yes, you could be right. for a 4,000 sq. ft. house @60 dollars /sq ft, you could get away with 246,000. But if you wnat to put in nice windows, and two nice kitchens, and a new efficient hvac system, and new electrical, and chimney liners, it's safer to go with about 110 to 120/sq ft.
Serge

Posted by: Serge at April 5, 2007 1:37 PM

Serge,

I think this house is closer to 3000 sq. ft but I agree with your $110/sq. ft. And it's true that central air could push you up towards $300,000.

Posted by: west at April 5, 2007 1:53 PM

Wow.... this seems crazy! Is the market this insane?
First the working and middle class are priced out of Brooklyn.... now they're pricing out the upper-middle class???? What the f*ck is going on???
Even at 850 this place is crap.
If I didn't own already, I'd be looking for a transfer to Philadelphia!

Posted by: ImNotYourDaddy at April 5, 2007 2:13 PM

It is a little frightening.
Older folks better already own or have a rent-control apartment. younger folks better have very high starting salaries and/or rich parents and grandparents.


Posted by: Serge at April 5, 2007 2:43 PM

OR people can realize that there are plenty of places that can be had for 200-400K and not everyone needs to live in a million dollar apartment.

Posted by: anon at April 5, 2007 2:46 PM

What's the zoning? Couldn't it be torn down for a mid-rise condo building?

Posted by: hi! at April 5, 2007 2:54 PM

With renos you're talking $1.4 million to live next too-big apartment buildings that cancel out any charm of having a backyard garden? Why do it? I understand people love Ditmas and Victorian Flatbush, but there must be a limit, surely. And I'm all for preservation but this house is SO not spectacular or unique. No, it should not be landmarked. Save the fights for things that are worth saving, please.

This kind of HOTD is like when the volunteers in charity thrift stores put anything older than the 80's on the "vintage" rack and treat the pieces like they belong in the Smithsonian. Not all old houses are precious. This one isn't even Victorian. Try early 1900's.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 3:24 PM

Yeah...buy now before its price goes up over a million....Oh wait...

Posted by: djr at April 5, 2007 3:33 PM

This house is "Victorian", both in the style and the time it was built, 1899.

It's a 2-family, so rental income is possible. The lot is 40x100, on the small end of the range of lot sizes for the area. Not only are there large apartment buildings behind the house, but also directly across the street. This is one of a handful of remaining free-standing houses on the block.

Both realtors list it as needing work, without specifics. Whoever's going to look at this house seriously will need an excellent inspector. I haven't noticed this house before, but from the exterior photo, the shingles look like composite. These typically contain asbestos and will require certified asbestos abatement handling for removal before restoring or replacing any existing siding underneath. Then there's the roof, mechanicals, and so on.

The band between Cortelyou and Dorchester is all zoned R6, with some commercial overlays on the cross streets. R6 allows townhouse construction, to 5-6 floors or so. The house as-built is more than 4:1 under the maximum FAR of 2.43. This could easily become a teardown, as we are seeing elsewhere in the neighborhood.

Posted by: Xris (Flatbush Gardener) at April 5, 2007 4:08 PM

I've been inside the house, and weighing the good and the bad, I think this is a rare opportunity to get into ditmas for under a mil. That said it needs tons of work. Floors were done horribly but appear preserved underneath all those layers of poly. Any buyer should know that all the kitchens are in start from scratch condition. The value of this place is in the back staircase to the 3rd floor with a separate entrance. Few houses have the legal 2 family deal going. Plus a garage with a bathroom=rental potential, perfect for a psychologist or massage studio or other business. The siding is hideous and that will run I've heard $50,000-$60,000? You've got a cute 2 bedroom apt on the third floor and a rentable garage = $2000. a month. That's an extra $24k a year to make the mortagage payments, something i wish my house had.

Posted by: Argyle Road at April 5, 2007 4:17 PM

And at this point "getting into Ditmas", while its a beautiful neighborhood with a ton going for it, doesn't mean that much...and this coming from someone who grew up there.

Sure, area is growing, but we're not talking prime shopping, schools or amenities...yet.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 4:50 PM

Just discovered that it's also listed with the heinous Brooklyn Properties.

Posted by: Xris (Flatbush Gardener) at April 5, 2007 5:05 PM

no amenities.....isn't this house in Brooklyn? park slope is short subway ride, 5 minute car ride. brooklyn avenue u china town is 15 minutes...hmmm let's see...walk on the boardwalk and get a hotdog in 20 minutes and see the ocean. how about ...in 10 minutes you can be in bensonhurst and get some great fresh pasta...or just walk to the picket fence, the farm at adderly or mariachis for a fine meal ...groceries..hmmm...food coop, associated, great spanish butcher...i could go on....couldn't i.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 5:06 PM

It really is not a bad house, compared to some of the lulu's on this site in the past few weeks.
It's attractive and is 108 years old. It has a nice front porch with doric columns, 2-story bay on the side, Palladian window in the attic. I say it's worth renovating.

Posted by: Serge at April 5, 2007 5:20 PM

I've lived in 3 different true Victorian houses in my life in childhood and college, and this is not Victorian. The details are far more Craftsmen than Victorian. In fact, this looks like a Sears Roebuck house from the 1908-1914 catalog. Lots of houses and rowhouses in Brooklyn were from Sears Roebuck.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 5:31 PM

Edwardian

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 6:21 PM

Please don't get defensive anon 5:06. Sounds like you bought in the 'hood and want to defend your purchase and if that's the case, trust me, I think you made a GREAT INVESTMENT. I love ditmas park, grew up there, and my parents live there.

But many people (like buyers coming from manhattan or 'hoods like park slope) are used to being walking distance from nightlife, good groceries, etc. Now, we could debate all day and night if this is important or not, and in the end it comes down to personal choice.

I just questioned the phrase "getting into ditmas" which implied there are things IN THAT HOOD that are worth buying a so-so house to be near. Not on Ave u, not in coney island, but right there, car or not. You're near that stuff anywhere in brooklyn you live if you've got transportation...

Now, more space, beautiful blocks...those are 2 reasons to "get into ditmas" i suppose but the rest of it...let's just be honest and real: The hood has a lot of growing to do, as much as i like it.

Posted by: Anon from before at April 5, 2007 7:36 PM

One more thing, check out the thread at chowhound where people are discussing the lack of chinese food delivery options in ditmas park. That's all I'm saying...little things make a difference, though to each his/her own.

Posted by: Anon from before at April 5, 2007 7:59 PM

It's true that if you're looking for a two-family, the house Mary Kay has listed fo 1.3 in West Midwood might be a smarter way to go...

Posted by: west at April 5, 2007 8:05 PM

chinese food delivery options in ditmas park area.....yen yen...way to go....as good as red hot...i would say

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 8:27 PM

I don't think I was getting defensive...just thought i was getting real

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 8:28 PM

Mmm hmm I like yen yen a lot, but the chowhounders didn't agree so much. Back in the day we went to the place on cortelyou, near 16th st., that was before the installed the partition, sadly.

Posted by: Anon from before at April 5, 2007 8:31 PM

Some thoughts:

1. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that victorian only means it was built in a certain era (not to be confused with Victoria's reign) and there are many styles of victorians as such as tudors, colonial revivalist, greek revivalist, arts and crafts, etc. I think this house was built in that period and seems to be very similar to many of the victorians in the nabe.

2. There is a discount for the nabe in square feet/price versus other more amenity driven nabes. I mean you are getting a whole house with land and a garage. In what other amenity driven nabe could you get all this for this price?

3. Some buyers who just want to gut a place to their own satisfaction do not want to pay for upgrades they are going to redo anyway so here is an opportunity. The owner of the one on 17th street put 500k (his own words) into his house and made it perfect and it quickly sold with a listed price of $1.950. Granted its a little bit bigger on a nicer block but again if you got it for 800k I don't think 1.3 being that near courtelyou for a perfect 5 bedroom house with a maybe a guest house or additional income would be a reach.

5. If I had $4 million I don't think I would buy in park slope but get a nice perfect house (where I spend 90% of my time) for $2 million, bank the other 2 million enjoy the other nabe's amenities by car or subway. I also think courtelyou is coming along with a lot of new apartment buildings and hipsters that will increasingly attract those amenites but for sure not on the scope of some other nabes. For my money it's a better investment in the long run.

5. As far as the other apartment buildings. Sure it deserves a discount to other blocks in the nabe but for 800k in park slope you'd have neighbor's in a small 2 bedroom in a townhouse or apartment building the next wall over and probably looking in through your windows as well.

It is the city afterall and just a perspective. Granted I live in the nabe and am biased I guess but I think we miss some of the positive perspective of being able to live in the city and at the same time have the amenities of a real house.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 9:41 PM

I personally agree with you, Anon 9:41, re: living in a "real" house vs. "amenities", especially when you have kids and care more about a backyard than you care about being walking distance from smith street or the ale house so you can stumble home drunk every weekend.

But these are the types of things we could discuss pro and con until the cows come home and at the end of the day it is personal preference. I'm glad my parents made the decision they did, to raise us in ditmas park, but my co-worker for example, paid approx $850K for a small 3-bed in park slope and plans to stay there for a good long time with her husband and 2 kids, yard be darned. Good for her, she's got p.s. 321, but she also has her mornings dictated by alternate side parking while those in ditmas park have their 2 car garages.

There's no right or wrong. Everyone makes the decisions they think are right for themselves and their families.

I went to P.S. 139 on cortelyou rd and I'm interested to see where the ditmas park parents of today send their kids, if any of the posters wouldn't mind sharing. No judgment, just curios.

Posted by: Anon from before at April 5, 2007 9:55 PM

exactly...you can live in bensonhurst and say the same thing...this is a city afterall...and we choose to celebrate it or dice it to bits...i choose to celebrate what Brooklyn is...a diverse universe and if you can get lucky and buy a house...enjoy the neighborhood...cherish

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 9:55 PM

I love your attitude 9:55 and think brooklyn needs more like you. Maybe too many years in the city left me a bit jaded, but I have a feeling somewhere between my cynicism and your zen lies the real way to be.

Posted by: Anon from before at April 5, 2007 10:00 PM

minor point but if it was built in 1899 it is indeed 'Victorian'. Her reign ended in 1901.

Posted by: es at April 5, 2007 10:21 PM

I think there is no magic bullet on the school thing. PS321 gets great reviews but it is also overcrowded and ends in 5th grade. PS139 and 217 have good reviews for its minischools and eagle programs but again after 5th grade you got start the application program to get your kids into the best school possible like other nabes. Then of course there are charter schools which are all over brooklyn and have lottery systems and there are private schools which are increasingly difficult to get into. I think all nyc parents go through the same thing and there is no one neighborhood with terrific public schools that get you through highschool. Most parents I know whether public school route, charter, or private end up agonizing and often find a school suited for their children and its rarely in walking distance. But as for this nabe, I find the schools pretty good and from what I can gather from some teachers and parents has some of the best grade schools and highschools in the city, but again when you're dealing with lotteries and private school apps there is just no guarantee. At this point in the process I'm just glad I found a great pre-school for my kids through kindergarten :-)

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 10:21 PM

my two oldest daughters went 217 the oldest is now in college at Savannah College of Art and Design after having been to Hudde for jr. high and ICE for hs...my middle child is in 11th grade and just came back from 5 months as an exchange student in Italy...Vetto a small town in the Apennine Mts.....she has been a student at ICE since 6th grade (before her older sister...thank goodness I didn't subject her to Hudde)...my youngest graduated from 139 last year and is also now at ICE....321 is not the be all and the end all...be a proactive parent in any school and your child will do fine...your child's education is your job....not your neighborhood's

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 10:22 PM

I agree that education is up to a parent, not a neighborhood, well put.

But I'll take anon 10:22's last comment with a grain of salt. With interested and active parents, kids will succeed...that being said, many parents in neighborhoods with a hell of a lot less than ditmas park would love a little more help from their community or school, and they deserve it. While our kids are off studying in italy, other kids would love a textbook or to afford a musical instrument, and that's no exaggeration. We can afford to sit around at night chatting on blogs about our real estate "troubles". Wah us.

Posted by: Anon at April 5, 2007 10:42 PM

NYC or Westchester or Long Island...choice or no choice...I choose NYC School system...hard to navigate but at least there is choice...I don't want to pay $10,000.00 a year in property taxes to get stuck in a Westchester/Long Island school.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 10:44 PM

actually i think all the children at 139 in ditmas park get the benefit of involved parents...most parents at 139 do not own homes in ditmas park...they are renters. That said it is a good school with a good base and a very good pta...renter and owners...without that base no child would get a scholarship to got to italy.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 5, 2007 10:55 PM

We're in Victorian Flatbush and our daughter goes to Holy Name (Prospect Ave and PPW)...old-fashioned 'Bells of St. Mary's' plus perfect mix of Brklyn diversity ca 2007, and the school's somewhat threadbare physical plant is about to get a buildout from a private foundation. Decent education, caring staff, safety and K thru 8 (i.e. no middle-school rat race) for $4K/year...For Catholics (and even non-Catholics, we got them too), a nice compromise between public school and $25K/year private school.

Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at April 6, 2007 12:01 AM

i can't even respond the above post....actually i'm done with this site...i think it is a site of privileged people who think who their children are and that is a sad fact

Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2007 2:36 AM

We live in Ditmas Park and our son goes to Brooklyn Friends School. Quick jump on the B to Dekalb and then we grab the A to our jobs. We sell an organ a year to pay for it but that's our choice. All the talk about public schools on Flatbush Family Network regularly tell me we made the right choice for us.

Posted by: tag482 at April 6, 2007 6:49 AM

plenty of (ignored) studies show that parental involvement in child education has a much bigger effect than the school they attend (bar extreme cases). Its not fashionable to say so tho, so lets blame the schools.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2007 8:40 AM

The idea that it's all about how much money the schools have, come from the teacher's unions. Teachers get blamed by parents for low test scores, so teachers in turn blame the city for not giving them enough money.

How is it "The Greatest Generation" were educated mostly in tiny country schools, or city schools without much money or amenities. But our generation is suddenly having a problem with the schools? It ain't the schools, people. Our entire culture is anti-intellectual, that's the problem. The best school on the planet can't counteract the effect of retards like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohan on tweenie girls. Or the effect of rapper thugs and violent video games on young boys. I sound like a Republican but I'm not. I'm just someone who has noticed intelligence is not a trait that is valued in American society anymore. Only being sexy or thin or rich.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2007 10:12 AM

We are sexy, thin, rich AND care about education. We are a well read, thoughtful family of hotties, lol. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2007 12:58 PM

Well good for you, 12:58. As long as you fit that description, who cares about what is happening to the rest of the country, huh?

Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2007 2:06 PM

if everyone looked after themselves who could, we wouldn't be in a pickle would we?

Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2007 2:34 PM

12:58 agrees with 2:34 and not with 2:06

Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2007 3:16 PM

I hope this concludes the discussion, The house is up for sale, and whoever is interested can contact Brooklyn Hearth, Brooklyn Properties, Brooklyn Real, Mary Kay, Dan Shapiro and others.

Happy bidding!

Posted by: Owner at April 6, 2007 3:25 PM

The posts at 12:58 and 3:16 encourage me to add another personality trait to my list of what Americans are becoming - vapid shallow narcissists.

Ask any European. They'll tell you. Gladly.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2007 4:43 PM

Actually "We are sexy, thin, rich AND care about education." sounds like a bunch of Europeans I know.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2007 4:53 PM

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