« Residential Sales in Brooklyn House of the Day: 465 Clinton Avenue »

April 17, 2007

Co-op of the Day: 474 3rd Street

Here's an attractive two-bedroom in a lovely (albeit elevator-less) limestone building on one of the Slope's grander streets. The pre-war apartment appears to have retained much of its original charm, including pocket doors and and woodwork around the windows though (what happened to the crown moldings, though?). This apartment also has its own entrance to the building's common garden. Given the 321 factor, the asking price of $819,000 seems achievable to us. What think you?
474 3rd Street [Brown Harris Stevens] GMAP P*Shark
Photo by Kate Leonova for Property Shark

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i think 819K seems terrific, to be honest. great street, great looking place and terrific school. similar place in manhattan would be 1.5 million plus.

i'd actually have put this closer to 900K.

Posted by: anon at April 17, 2007 11:43 AM

but there have been 3-br with (small) outdoor space on the same block for 800k as well?

This is not cheap!!

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 11:53 AM

One bathroom, shleppy walk-up (think of dealing with strollers and groceries), no doorman, bars in the bedroom window. I guess in NYC this is considered super-lux. I think it sucks for the money. It should cost 400,000 in a sane market.

Posted by: fran at April 17, 2007 11:57 AM

This has been on the market for a while. I had seen this it about 6-8 weeks ago.

It's a lot for a two bedroom, even in 321. What the pics don't show is how much the place has settled. It's very uneven. And the second bed (not pictured) is fairly small. And it's not 100% owner-occupied.

The kitchen is dated, the bath is in need of some work, and there is not a lot of closet space. The pocket doors and some of the original details are nice, but it's not worth asking IMHO.

Posted by: anonamoose at April 17, 2007 12:01 PM

don't agree at all fran. 400K? you can't even get a nice house in the suburbs of atlanta for 400K. that's pretty ridiculous to say considering you live in one of the finest cities in the world. a gorgeous pre-war building in one of the finest neighborhoods and you don't think 800 is an ok price?

you do realize that you can't find a similar decent 2 bedroom on the upper west side for less than twice this much....right?

Posted by: anonymous at April 17, 2007 12:01 PM

Actually, re anon 12:01, you CAN find a similarly sized 2 br on the UWS for well under 1 mil. And it won't be a walkup. You're paying for PS 321 (zoned UWS schools are spotty).

I know this because we just bought on the UWS after looking at Park Slope. Ps has lower maintenance but for us working in Midtown it would have meant a much longer commute.

My only objection to this property at this price is the small 2nd br. These folks have twins, it appears (2 highchairs), so I'd imagine they'd entertain a good offer below 800k. I'd say if you paid $780K you're on the money.

Posted by: Bolder at April 17, 2007 12:26 PM

You're paying to live in the Slope. Period. You can get a much nicer home in many other Brooklyn neighborhoods, for much less money.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 12:28 PM

This unit is priced about $200,000 more on average than 2 BR co-ops inside the PS 282 Park Slope district. I don't get it. You could pay for the most expensive private K-5 school in Manhattan and send your kid in a private car service every day, for that. And have some money left to pay for Middle School.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 12:29 PM

Don't disparage the suburbs of Atlanta, some of them are really nice.
Mark my words, in a couple of years when things settle down, this apartment will be worth much less than 800,000.
Especially as it is a building with holdover rental tenants, and really, as one gets older, the idea of shlepping up stairs to get to your apartment becomes a real PITA.

Posted by: Fran at April 17, 2007 12:30 PM

Really This PS321 thing is out of control. Hey parents the other schools cannot be that bad. Any way maybe YOU could make them better and save money at the same time by moving to the other schools...

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 12:50 PM

To add to 12:28, not only are you going to pay (dearly) to live in PS, but you (still) won't be able to get a parking space, AND there are other excellent public schools in Brooklyn that are NOT 321.

But, if PS is for, it's okay and I could see it going for 800K. People love 3rd street.

Posted by: jdhs 91 at April 17, 2007 12:55 PM

Actually I would rate PS 107 with 321 and it is much less crowded. I think many parents there prefer that it be kept under the radar.

Posted by: doldrums at April 17, 2007 12:59 PM

"Mark my words, in a couple of years when things settle down, this apartment will be worth much less than 800,000."

oh god...you're one of those.

too bad you'll forever be left out of the nyc real estate market with that attitude. i guess you also said 5 years ago when this place was 200K that it couldn't possibly go any higher.

poor thing.

Posted by: anon at April 17, 2007 1:03 PM

i've been marking your words for quite a while now, fran.

been predicting that housing crash in brooklyn for what is it...3 years or so now??

Posted by: bbb at April 17, 2007 1:12 PM

anon 1:03
It sounds like you are the one out of the real estate market.
I have been buying and selling apartments longer than I would like to admit. I have been through many cycles.
This stuff doesn't just go up -y'know?
I sense we are right on the top of the roller coaster now. This is experience talking, not hubris.

Posted by: Fran at April 17, 2007 1:14 PM

you buy and sell apartments all the time but you think a 2 bedroom on 3rd street in park slope should cost 400K?

you're not as crazy as i thought, then.

you simply have not come into the 21st century.

Posted by: anon at April 17, 2007 1:18 PM

Is it really 200K less than other PS two bedrooms? Seems like the two-bedroom listing I see for PS are all four room apartments -- ie, two BRs, kitchen and living room. This apartment has five full rooms.

As for this size apartment costing twice as much on the UWS -- I don't think so. A friend recently bought a much larger 6 room apartment on the UWS for 1.4 mill. with a good neighborhood school. I'm sure the average price per sq. ft. on the UWS is higher than PS, but not by a whole lot.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 1:25 PM

Sorry, meant to say about "Is it really 200K MORE than other PS two bedrooms"

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 1:27 PM

you can't just compare this place to any other 2 bedroom in park slope. it's on 3rd street people. it's one of the most prime blocks in brooklyn...just like central park west or 5th avenue.

come on, you should all know that certain above average blocks can command higher asking prices.

Posted by: anon at April 17, 2007 1:33 PM

BTW, this is on the first floor (I saw it a couple of weeks ago), so it's not really a schlep up. The outdoor "space" is about a 5 foot deep walkway along the back of the building.

Posted by: Matt at April 17, 2007 1:34 PM

True, this has a dining room as the 5th room most 2 beds do not have.

But when considering an apartment, the primary concern is - how many people can live here?

You can have one child in this 800k+ apt with a dining room, or you can have one child in a 600k apt without one. It's just not worth it relative to what else is out there.

Posted by: anonamoose at April 17, 2007 1:36 PM

"But when considering an apartment, the primary concern is - how many people can live here?"

while this may be true in your case, the issue of how many people is not the primary concern for all new york city residents.

most here have only one or two children as it is in which case this apartment would be more than suitable by nyc standards in terms of size.

to make such a generalization that everyone's number one concern is squeezing in as many people as possible is....well...so ignorant.

sorry, but it is.

Posted by: anonymous at April 17, 2007 1:47 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if this went for over the asking price, even in this market. It's in a great building on a prime block in a coveted school district, and offers direct access to semi-private outdoor space. For a family intending to stay put for awhile, it wouldn't even matter if the market settles for awhile. This will more than hold its value in the long run.

Posted by: Park Sloper at April 17, 2007 2:15 PM

I am not talking about putting as many people as one can into an apartment. If anything, your assumption is ignorant.

This is about practicality. You cannot comfortably live with two kids in this space, fifth room notwithstanding. So one has to compare this place to other places that are suitable for a family of three. And you can find that for significantly less than 819k.

A dining room and some pocket doors aren't worth 200k to me, but perhaps it is to someone else.

Posted by: anonymoose at April 17, 2007 2:18 PM

thank you for a bit of sanity park sloper.

i'm glad someone else here has some concept of the value of good park slope housing stock.

Posted by: anonymous at April 17, 2007 2:19 PM

"And you can find that for significantly less than 819k."

and you can also find it for 3 million dollars. so what it your point??

if you are simply looking for the largest space for the lowest price possible, i'm afraid you might be looking in the wrong city. certainly the wrong borough of nyc.

Posted by: anon at April 17, 2007 2:22 PM

I live on 2nd Street between 5th and 6th in a huge 2-bedroom in a slightly less attractive 8-family walk-up.

I pay $2150. Now, would I double my monthly payments and commit to a 30-year debt just to live in this building which probably has a slightly nicer kitchen and nothing else?

Ahh, no.

I have no doubt this is a nice place, but $800K is just crazy.

Posted by: Anonymouse at April 17, 2007 2:23 PM

take a look at these prices (just an example on the upper west side) and then tell me this place is overpriced.

and certainly we'd all probably agree for better or worse that ps 321 is better than many options on the upper west side.

over a million for a 1 bedroom...

http://www.corcoran.com/property/nd/detail_fr_listings.asp?ndevid=157

Posted by: anonymous at April 17, 2007 2:27 PM

that's well and good 2:23 but you have a great deal. while i haven't crunched the numbers, to find a similar 2 bedroom like this near 3rd street would be next to impossible for what you pay.

i'd say closer to 4K a month would be more like it. still probably cheaper than the mortgage, but i'm just sayin..

you've got a bargain.

Posted by: anonymous at April 17, 2007 2:32 PM

Park Sloper-

What do you mean "even in this market"?

Posted by: Matt at April 17, 2007 2:34 PM

This is way overpriced. While it is a great block. There are other three bedroom apartments in the $800,000.00s on the smae block with garden access. Based on that fact along, the listing is overpriced. Of course, based on some of the previous posts, who thought the $800,000 was reasonable. Someone, without looking into any comparitives, will buy it and pay $50 for a $20 bill. The market is not inflated; it is just filled with idiots.

Posted by: amazed at April 17, 2007 2:43 PM

i'd love to see the links to the 3 bedrooms with garden on the same block for sure.

link them here...

Posted by: anonymous at April 17, 2007 2:57 PM

2:57-

I saw a 3 bedroom on that block the same day I saw this open house. Exact same apt, but configured differently. To be honest, I don't remember the exact difference. I think the 3 br was not in quite as good condition. Same floor, same size, same (almost non-existant) outdoor space. Similar price.

Posted by: Matt at April 17, 2007 3:28 PM

Folks,
I live on the block, and one of the exact same apartments also on the first floor at 450 3rd st. has just gone into contract for $990,000. It did have a half bath, but the place is not in that great of condition.

I'm sorry, but this place will go for closer to $900,000.

More and more people who would normally just move to the suburbs don't want to. They want to raise their kids in the city and this is driving up the cost of apartments like this that can comfortably (that's relative) house four people. Also, these apartments can be 3 bedrooms. Yes, they are small, but the living space is good. They are wide apartments and the dining room is very generous.

Full disclosure: I live in one of them and bought five years ago at just over $500,000.

Posted by: itiswhatitis at April 17, 2007 3:33 PM

there is also a 2 bedroom listed through corcoran on 2nd street between 5th and 6th listed for 895K so i also agree that this home will go closer for 900K.

Posted by: anonymous at April 17, 2007 3:37 PM

Two words: Bidding War!

Why does this site always assume prices are too high?

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 3:44 PM

Matt: when I said "even in this market," please understand that I'm not part of the crowd that has been predicting a crash. Still, prices have clearly not been going up as astronomically in the last couple of years as they had been previously. If this apartment would have sold five years ago for $500,000 (assuming it's in comparable condition to the apartment bought by "itiswhatitis"), it would easily be worth $1 million by now if prices hadn't somewhat leveled off recently. Instead, it's being offered at $819,000, which is probably more reasonable "in this market" ... but I still predict that it will sell for over ask, unless there's something terribly wrong with it that's not evident from the listing.

So, Mr. B., keep track of this one! It will be interesting to see what it eventually sells for. (Anyone want to take any bets?)

Posted by: Park Sloper at April 17, 2007 3:46 PM

If this place was worth a little over $500K in early 2002, then it's probably doubled in value, no?

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 3:47 PM

i agree that a fun addition to the site might be that there's a guess put in for asking prices (similar to curbed) for the pick of the week or something, and then we find out who was closest on the actual listing price.

but then to go one step further, keep track and let us know what it ended up actually selling for.

a lot of work, i'm guessing. but could be fun.

Posted by: anon at April 17, 2007 3:52 PM

"a lot of work, i'm guessing."

Maybe, but he is doing this full-time now, so...

Posted by: EJ at April 17, 2007 4:03 PM

Full Discloser part deux: Our apartment was a piece of shit that we renovated. This one looks to be in much better condition.

Posted by: itiswhatitis at April 17, 2007 4:04 PM

When things cool down?

Jeez, you'll be waiting a very long time (renter).

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 4:29 PM

Park Sloper-

I ask because I've been actively looking at real estate in this market for many months and I don't see the leveling off. In fact, I think things are still going up in the areas I'm looking - PS, South Slope, Windsor, Carroll Gdns etc. Not astronomically, but still up. As a buyer, it's depressing.

Posted by: Matt at April 17, 2007 4:32 PM

"certainly we'd all probably agree for better or worse that PS 321 is better than many options on the upper west side."

Ignorant... whole Park Slope Parents have to rely on just one Public School?? And I guess you are one of those only look the number of stars on the insideschools.org. What do you know about schools in UWS? Music School, Anderson, PS9, PS87, PS195, MSC, and many G&T programs and don't forget Hunter.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 4:36 PM

3:44 wrote:

"Why does this site always assume prices are too high?"

Answer: a rich fantasy life.

Posted by: anon at April 17, 2007 4:39 PM

Bidding War?? It has been on the market for over 2 months!

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 4:45 PM

we looked at one of these a year ago, and they're really nice, but we decided TOO SMALL, even with only one kid. The bedrooms are teeny. It's pretty though, and hard to argue with location.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 5:19 PM

"Ignorant... whole Park Slope Parents have to rely on just one Public School?? And I guess you are one of those only look the number of stars on the insideschools.org. What do you know about schools in UWS? Music School, Anderson, PS9, PS87, PS195, MSC, and many G&T programs and don't forget Hunter."

i have lived on the upper west side (now live in park slope) and been a teacher at a public school here for almost 7 years. that's how i know.

and ps. 321 is, by most people's take one of the finest, if not the finest public elementary school in new york city.

even us teachers think so a**hole!

talk about ignorant. of course there are many terrific schools all over and the upper west side is no different....quite a few above average schools, but ps. 321 is oftentimes referred to as the model.

and you know why that is????? PARENT INVOLVEMENT!!

the same thing that you all bitch about is the exact thing that makes it so special.

please think before you speak next time.

Posted by: anonymousteacher at April 17, 2007 5:40 PM

Who are these idiots who think everything is the biggest bargain they ever saw?
This dump is LANGUISHING because it isn't worth 800,000 dollars.
Note to buyers, especially young ones: Do not let pushy realtors make you feel small and "thin walleted" because you have common sense. this is a rip off at this price.

Posted by: Fran at April 17, 2007 7:19 PM

anonymousteacher-

Glad to have calm, respectful, thoughtful people like you teaching the next generation. Looks like we're in good shape.

Posted by: Matt at April 17, 2007 7:20 PM

Dump? I don't think pushy realtors brought in 75 people to the open house at 450 3rd st. two weeks ago.

It may be a "rip off" to you because you simply can't afford it.

You're the idiot who can't confront reality.

and no, I'm not a realtor.

Posted by: anonymous at April 17, 2007 7:26 PM

Matt,
agreed,
that so-called teacher seems like a lunatic.

Posted by: Fran at April 17, 2007 7:29 PM

Anonymous;
if you're not a realtor, then you're an D..bag.

Posted by: Fran at April 17, 2007 7:31 PM

fran, you are the ultimate bstoner lunatic.

every comment you make is:
a. completely and utterly incorrect
b. bitter beyond belief
c. makes little to no sense
d. all of the above

Posted by: anonymous at April 17, 2007 7:32 PM

hey fran,
i'm pretty sure you aren't a realtor, and you are most certainly a "D....BAG"

no, not dirt.

Posted by: anonymous at April 17, 2007 7:37 PM

Are you guys all suffering from Imus withdrawal or something?

Why is there so much yelling on this board? It's strange that we can't just discuss real estate without calling each other names and resorting to personal attacks.

Posted by: Matt at April 17, 2007 7:46 PM

Most people only have one or two children in Park Slope... I find that so sad. Is that because they choose to have a small family, or they think having more means having to move to the burbs to accomodate them.

Move to Ditmas for the same price, and have as many children as you like (or not). We have four, and, happily, have been able to remain right here in Brooklyn. While there are plenty of families with two kids, only children tend to be the minority, and there are plenty of families with three plus. It creates a totally different vibe than when you encounter in other neighborhoods...

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 7:55 PM

"you can't just compare this place to any other 2 bedroom in park slope. it's on 3rd street people. it's one of the most prime blocks in brooklyn...just like central park west or 5th avenue"
Are you joking???? Comparing crappy 3rd Street (6-7th)to Central Park West and 5th Ave????

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 8:38 PM

8:38
Right on!
Comparing 3rd Street to Central park west? Oy!
It is a wide street because it was the driveway, in effect, for the Litchfield family. no other reason, the walkups on the street are standard issue, No Eldorado or Dakota there.
Fight against over priced shit!
fight agaisnt it! Don't give the real estate loonies a free pass.
These prices are nuts, tell them.
tell them again and again and they will finally get it. don't be the last one to buy the tulips at pearl prices.

Posted by: Fran at April 17, 2007 9:02 PM

I saw this when it first was shown around 2 months ago too and was very underwhelmed. So was everyone else who was looking, which I guess is why it hasn't sold still. The backyard in particular seemed like a dismal joke, and the "private entrance" to the backyard was equally depressing.

The debate here about whether or not it is priced right makes no sense unless you see the place. In theory it might be worth 900k, but once you go for the tour, you wouldn't fork over 700k -- you'd need to put at least 150K into it to make it start to get close to as nice as what it could be. But that backyard would still be worthless.

Posted by: JK at April 17, 2007 9:04 PM

5:40PM; When we lived in UWS, my son went to MSC where there were so many involved parents and great fundraising power. So I do not need to be told that parentsﾕ involvement is an important factor. Maybe PS 9 was more academically better than MSC. We've chosen the school over G&T program. But my son loved his school and so did we. I always hate the "this school is better than other school" argument. And I can't believe that that kind of judgment is come from a teacher. My belief is it's okay that your kid is not going to PS 321 as long as his school has good environment to learn. It's parent's job that make sure kids are learning, and many school can offer supports. Talk to parents and make decision that what's best for your family. If you cannot think of any other school rather than PS 312, may be the school is your choice then. My son is now going to PS 102 in Bay Ridge. He is learning beautifully. You still might say PS 321 is better. And off course PS 102 is not a perfect school. But I don't think we made a wrong decision to come to Bay Ridge.

Posted by: anonymousparent at April 17, 2007 9:25 PM

"Most people only have one or two children in Park Slope... I find that so sad."

WTF? Do you think people want to have more kids but don't because of space issues?

My wife and I have (cure dramatic organ music) NO children, and we have no plans to have them. I find that so sad... no wait, I don't. At all.

Posted by: EJ at April 17, 2007 9:25 PM

321 premium my arse! What about my John Jay discount for living in that part of town?!? For Christ's sake! Where do PS parents send their children to middle and secondary school?!?! I don't get it. You pay a 321 premium when you move into the nabe and then you must pay 25-30k per year per child to send your post 6th grade children to private school anyway! What a joke!

Posted by: Fish n' Chips at April 17, 2007 9:32 PM

RE: Anon 7:55

Why would you assume that a family buying in PS only has one or two because if they have any more they'll have to move to the suburbs? I am sure that in the event that they chose to have more children they would. So please don't be sad for them. I too live in Ditmas Park vicinity and have 8 bedrooms. This was a real estate decision not a family planning event! Get back on topic.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 9:46 PM

Where is typekey? Signing in doesn't even seem to be an option anymore.

Posted by: Anonymous at April 17, 2007 11:51 PM

I think its a tad overpriced and therefore not moving very fast considering its on a prime block but I don't doubt someone will buy it eventually for that price since it only takes one person. I might buy this for $775K since I figure I need to put in at least $75K to redo the kitchen and bathroom.

I live in prime BH with similar dimesions as this apt but my kitchen and bath were completely renovated within the last 3 years and it was estimated at $825K last fall and my building has an elevator and basement storage.

Posted by: joe at April 18, 2007 1:09 AM

What happened to typekey?

Posted by: Jim at April 18, 2007 7:14 AM

Fish n' Chips--Middle school admissions is constantly changing, but it's not zoned the same way elementary schools are zoned.

MS 51 and MS 88 in Park Slope both have great programs, but there are other great public schools available throughout the borough and the city.

Posted by: Another Anonymous at April 18, 2007 5:46 PM

« Residential Sales in Brooklyn House of the Day: 465 Clinton Avenue »

April 17, 2007

Co-op of the Day: 474 3rd Street

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