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March 13, 2007
PLG: Pump Up The Volume, Dance, Dance
Despite the best efforts of our resident troll (who gets more insane every day), all signs point to boom times in Prospect Lefferts Gardens. Of the five houses listed currently on Brown Harris Stevens, for example, three are in contract (including this place that has been on the market forever) and another (the Ocean Avenue house featured in OHP two weeks ago) is tied up in a bidding war somewhere between 5 and 10 percent over ask. One reader who hit a bunch of the open houses this weekend said they were crawling with young couples priced out of Clinton Hill and Fort Greene and drooling at the comparatively low prices and proximity to the park. (New York Magazine was way out in front of this one back in '05.) If you're a long-term believer in Brooklyn, it's hard to see how you can go wrong with PLG. But...are prices outpacing the reality of infrastructure, amenities, etc. or is the rest of the world just waking up and coming to its senses? (We would encourage people to sign in for discussions on this one as our little PLG toad will most likely be firing away full throttle in his best efforts to disrupt civil discourse.)
Photo from Planet PLG 2006 house tour slide show.
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Comments
hope hope hope that what's happening in PLG (I totally agree with Stoner) will happen in Ditmas :) People are beginning to realize that if you go just a little farther into Brooklyn you can get some pretty amazing property and for far less than $700/sq ft.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 8:48 AM
I'm sticking to my AY (as far away as possible) and Park access (as close as possible) theory...PLG fulfills this - Enduro is excellent Tex-Mex too...but Windsor Terrace has the most appeal to me...
Posted by: Brownstone Dreamin at March 13, 2007 8:55 AM
a friend of mine who is in her mid 50s lived in PLG when she was first married - about 30 years ago. she said they've been saying PLG is ripe for a boom consistently since before she was a resident. seems like now it's really happening but i'm adding this 2 cents as a reminder that PLG has been an "up and coming" hood for several decades now.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 8:56 AM
I think the biggest problem with PLG -- since lack of amenities could change pretty fast -- is the lack (or perceived lack) of good schools for people who can't afford private. I think this is why a lot of people who are priced out of Park Slope and want to stay near the park choose Windsor Terrace, even though it's kind of boring and most of the houses (at least the affordable ones) aren't nearly as beautiful as the ones in PLG. But WT is District 15.
Posted by: anonymous at March 13, 2007 9:06 AM
No regular reader of this site will be surprised at my take on Mr. B's question "are prices outpacing the reality of infrastructure, amenities, etc. or is the rest of the world just waking up and coming to its senses?" I think that the rest of the world is finally seeing what I, and many others have long seen here. FWIW, "infrastructure and amenities" are not a basic problem in PLG. The area is extremely well served by public transportation, for example with very rapid transport to midtown and lower Manhattan. Amenities include our proximity to Prospect Park and the Botanic Garden. The main amenity to have lagged behind many other brownstone neighborhoods is shopping and there is good reason to expect change there, as evidenced by this recent news item on WNYC radio:
http://www.wnyc.org/news/articles/74974
Posted by: Bob Marvin at March 13, 2007 9:13 AM
I think 9:06 makes the crucial point. I happen to love Windsor Terrace, but, although it has a nice (if limited) stock of gorgeous limestones, they are nowhere near as detailed and special as the ones in PLG. What WT has is an embarrassment of riches when it comes to schools. PS 154 is a good school that is improving by the day, PS 107 is amazing, while PS 130 is a pleasant surprise--plus kids in WT have access to PS 230 and its gifted program. Many kids walk to St. Saviour, and Holy Name offers the most incredible range of activities (sports, scouting, special events, irish dancing, teen club) for kids from toddler through teens, regardless of religion or where they go to school. We are walking distance to Poly Prep and even Berkeley Carroll. PLG residents need to focus on their school, and that will turn that area around decisively. I really believe PS 321 is an important factor in the residential/commercial boom in Park Slope 25 years ago.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 9:22 AM
True, Bob. PLG bests WT in terms of transit - the trek on the F into Manhattan is unbearable to those of used to the Q. I guess it's possible to get used to the F, but I personally would have a hard time adjusting (and I have no children so schools are not an issue).
Posted by: PLG rez at March 13, 2007 9:23 AM
Props to JB for not letting the pathetic troll make him shy away from PLG coverage.
Here are some bullet points on good things happening in our hood:
WHAT’S GOING ON IN PLG
• “Ocean By The Park” Block Association
This strong block association unites neighbors along the PLG stretch of Ocean Avenue.
Recent accomplishments:
- Worked with former City Councilwoman Yvette Clarke and Prospect Park head honcho Tupper Thomas on successfully obtaining funding in the city budget for significant upgrades to Ocean Avenue
- Held public meeting on the new Lakeside Center featuring Tupper Thomas
- Organized public meeting on tenants rights in PLG
• Prospect Park Alliance Makes Improvements
The Park’s proposed 5-year plan calls for the installation of historic street lighting and sidewalk and fence repairs on the PLG stretch of Ocean Avenue (thanks to Ocean By The Park advocacy). The PPA also scraped and repainted the fence on Ocean Avenue, covered the ugly transformer with a black tarp and repaired and added a tire swing to the Lincoln Road playground - all in response to PLG community feedback.
• Prospect Park to Build $37MM Lakeside Center
The site is just next to the current Wollman Rink – it will feature two ice skating rinks and will join the nearby Audubon Center as a focal point of activities in Prospect Park. The plan is for the facility to have a low visual profile and for the adjoining triangular area with benches to regain a lake view (which is currently blocked by the Wollman rink)
• Prospect Lefferts United for Services or “PLUS”
This neighborhood advocacy group has done much to improve the commercial environment in PLG (and the group is growing fast)
Recent accomplishments:
- Convinced DOT to make major improvements to Lincoln Road
- Secured significant funding for awnings and storefront improvements in PLG
- Got many PLG businesses to agree to remove graffiti
- Organized a highly successful “PLG Dinner Club” at local restaurants
- Cosponsored a successful Arts Market on Lincoln Road
- Working on creating a recurring Farmer’s Market on Lincoln Road
- Worked closely with Marty Markowitz’s office on a number of projects
- Played a role in bringing Enduro to PLG and continues to speak to businesses about opening stores/restaurants in PLG
• Planet PLG successfully petitioned the MTA to repair and repaint the long neglected Parkside Avenue Q stop
• Planet PLG and Former Councilwoman Yvette Clarke convinced local business Phat Albert to make repairs to the façade of his building and limit the scope of his sidewalk sales
• Recently formed PLG Arts put on a community play for children and organized a highly successful street fair of local artists. The group is looking for a space in which to open a community center for Yoga, knitting lessons, kids activities etc. and is organizing another community theater production
• Borough President Marty Markowitz is actively seeking funds to renovate the Loew’s Kings Theater - a gorgeous Radio City Music Hall-like gem just 8 blocks south of PLG. One plan is to turn it into a multicultural performing arts center.
Dan
PlanetPLG.com
Posted by: Dan at March 13, 2007 9:28 AM
8:48, your comment surprises me. If anything I'd think of Ditmas as being slightly ahead of PLG in terms of "gentrification", especially with the way Cortelyou is coming along and all of the abundant housing stock.
Posted by: Ray at March 13, 2007 9:41 AM
"PLG residents need to focus on their school, and that will turn that area around decisively"
I totally agree. It's also the right thing to do for the kids currently enrolled in PLG schools who, because of their skin color and economic status, get a lousy public education, while just across the park the wealthier and whiter kids get a much better deal.
We send our kids to a public mini-school in Ditmas (within the rules of the DOE system, not by faking an address) but we would much rather keep them in PLG. I think this is the next big issue the entire PLG community needs to focus on.
Posted by: Dan at March 13, 2007 9:42 AM
PLG resident sez...............over 15 years in PLG and still very little traction in the way of retail amenities. It's a poor area outside of the Landmark district. The schools track poorly. Until the schools improve, really improve PLG will never happen. Simple good schools=good amenities. Nice limestones, beautiful detail. Shots ring out........duck and cover
Posted by: Jack at March 13, 2007 9:45 AM
If you see a park official or a city cop nearby, just bring it to their attention. A ticket and a fine will do a world of good.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 9:48 AM
Bob: That linked story was amusing. Almost read like an Onion piece.
It's funny how obsessed New Yorkers seem with schools. Is this a Baby Boomer trend? I originally come from a small city in Michigan and everyone went to the same high school.
Were the Park Slope schools only good after gentrification or did people move to the Slope originally because of the good schools?
Posted by: supergirl at March 13, 2007 9:50 AM
PLG rez,
While I guess you're correct about transportation in PLG v. WT, I personally would rather avoid invidious comparisons between brownstone nabes. I know WT well, having lived around the corner, at 14th Street and "9th Avenue" for a number of years. Its a nice neighborhood and their schools are certainly an attraction. Yes, I DO prefer PLG--otherwise I would have bought in WT--prices were comparable in '74--but that's just me
Posted by: Bob Marvin at March 13, 2007 9:51 AM
Supergirl,
When I first moved to Park Slope in 1970, "gentrification" was already underway, but not too many years before there had been relatively few children (Everett Ortner refers to PS having been "brought back from the dead"). I'm sure good schools FOLLOWED other improvements in PS and throughout brownstone Brooklyn.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at March 13, 2007 10:02 AM
We are new resident, no kids so no school worries. We chose LG for the great houses near the park and BBG and the Q train. The best part of being here are the neighbors and the good feelings all around. The biggest area for improvement is the same here as in so much of NYC and beyond: keeping kids in school and getting jobs for young people.
Gentrification is happening and will continue, we just hope it goes slowly. Park Slope is close enough for us to get our fill at will. We moved from the UWS of Manhattan, and watched that nabe change from funky to money over 30 years and wanted to get out when it reached its current levels. Everybody wants to be the last person to discover a great thing, it just never works out that way.
Posted by: Gary at March 13, 2007 10:18 AM
while i agree with you gary, as i just moved from the uws to park slope i do think that there is still some funkiness to be had in ps. while it may have typically been around the 7th ave corridor, it is now down on 5th, 4th, etc. i think in the grand scheme of american life, we are still pretty lucky to live in nyc where you can find some of the much needed funky...we just have to look a little harder now, it seems.
love your hood too, btw.
Posted by: anonymous at March 13, 2007 10:25 AM
Oh please Dan, NYC public schools are not funded by neighborhood taxes - and education isnt withheld based upon skin color or economic status.
Public Schools are good in neighbohoods where a majority people/parents are committed to really educating their kids and are also sending them to the public school.
The majority of kids in the 'wealthier' sections come to their 1st day of school far, far ahead of those in these failing areas and that has little to nothing to do with $ or government.
Posted by: david at March 13, 2007 10:27 AM
David,
Points taken. I fail to believe, however, that it would be impossible to create better schools in poorer areas because the kids are not as well prepared and the parents are less involved than in wealthier neighborhoods.
I also disagree that schools in poor areas get the same degree of funding as those in wealthy areas. There are exceptions (PS 217 in Brooklyn, for example - where 81% of kids are eligible for free lunch - has great resources) but in general you will not find the same equipment/resources/programs in a public school in a wealthy neighborhood as you do in a poor neighborhood.
Dan
Posted by: Dan at March 13, 2007 10:53 AM
The market will drop more before it rebounds. By and large, these listings seem overpriced compared with much of what is out there now. As an owner, I appreciate that it is hard to accept that my house is worth about 10% less than it was 3 or 4 months ago--that's a lot of money to let go of. But looking at what is selling and what is not selling, it seems clear that if I really want to sell my house I'd have to accept a good deal less then I had expected. The bright side of course is that whatever I'd be trying to buy would cost less too, so in the end it doesn't matter.
I'm pretty sure that in the fall all of those houses that have been sitting on the market since late spring/early summer will get big price reductions--and finally sell.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 11:07 AM
", I appreciate that it is hard to accept that my house is worth about 10% less than it was 3 or 4 months ago-"
I forgot what the phenomenon is called but it happens with people buy stocks too - they can't accept the idea that they are selling it for less than what they paid so they hold onto it until the price diminishes to nothing (i did that during the dot com boom, fortunately only with a BS ameritrade account).
on the other hand some of the listings are only on the market a few days, like fort greene studio for 250K - 8 days or something like that.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 11:08 AM
Don't know much about the market right now, but I can offer that a 4-storey on Macon Street in Bed Stuy (same cross streets as the Halsey house) just sold for $900k. That said, I have no other details so it may not be germane to this listing, although I do think Halsey is a bit overpriced for a 3-storey.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 11:14 AM
I agree that Ditmas is further along the way with gentrification that PLG. Cortelyou has more amenities and the area is safer.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 12:11 PM
The link to the Papa and Sons Market in PLG and its focus on food is even a little funnier when you consider the name of reporter: Lisa Chow.
http://www.wnyc.org/news/articles/74974
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 12:34 PM
David, you wrote:
"Public Schools are good in neighbohoods where a majority people/parents are committed to really educating their kids and are also sending them to the public school."
David, if by public schools you mean those serving the K-5th grade population, then your statement is true.
The trouble starts in middle school when kids are no longer attending schools serving only the above-average neighborhoods.
High school is worse. While there is endless preening and crowing coming from the Park Slope crowd of PS 321 parents who inundate that school and get the results their intense involvement demands, you only have to walk a couple of blocks west on 7th Avenue before you get to the new/old John Jay high school.
Having had the extreme displeasure of working there briefly, I can tell you no responsible parent should let a kid attend that school.
My wife grew up in Park Slope on 3rd St and never attended 321. Neither did her three siblings. Private school all the way in those days. They moved to PS in 1960.
The residents of PS do not send their kids to the new John Jay, which is the old John Jay with a name change. Same clowns enrolled.
Meanwhile, there are no gifted programs in PS, as far as I know. They are the escape hatch for people in most neighborhoods. If you don't know about them and you have kids approaching school age, start learning.
While the hysteria of admission to the Eagle and CIG programs does not create the suicidal agonies felt by parents when their three-year olds are rejected by the Harvard-feeding pre-schools in Manhattan, there's reason for concern.
Posted by: occasional teacher at March 13, 2007 1:01 PM
Public schools get better when parents who live near them send their kids there. If you wait for someone else to do the work for you, it will never happen. Period. Doesn't matter if it's PLG or Park Slope.
The standard answer to this is: "Well, I'm not willing to force my child to be a social experiment." That's usually BS and a false choice. In most Brooklyn neighborhoods that are (like PLG) largely middle-class or above, your child will not be in physical danger, nor will his or her options in life be ruined by going to the public school. It just means you will have to get off your ass and do more work -- by volunteering at the school and maybe by involving your child in more enriching activities outside school to make up for extras the school doesn't have. But a lot of parents can't be bothered to do that.
It amazes me how many people make populist arguments for moving to a neighborhood like PLG (I want to live somewhere diverse, I don't want to live with a bunch of homogeneous rich yuppies, I want a tight-knit community)--then immediately follow that up with, "And you can always send your kids to private school."
Posted by: linusvanpelt at March 13, 2007 1:06 PM
Schools can improve pretty quickly. My daughter is now in 5th grade. When I was looking at schools, PS8 in Brooklyn Heights was a disaster, PS11 in Clinton Hill and PS20 in Ft. Greene were not doing well, and even PS107 and PS154 in Park Slope and Windsor Terrace were not considered good schools. Now all of them are good and improving.
The same will happen to at least some of the schools in PLG, Prospect Heights (PS9 is on the way), Crown Heights, and Bed-Stuy once a critical mass of parents committed to their neighborhood schools decide to push for improvement.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 1:25 PM
Dan, you wrote:
"I fail to believe, however, that it would be impossible to create better schools in poorer areas because the kids are not as well prepared and the parents are less involved than in wealthier neighborhoods."
You would be wrong. Until you've been in the company of large numbers of kids who've been poorly socialized, it's hard to imagine.
You wrote:
"I also disagree that schools in poor areas get the same degree of funding as those in wealthy areas."
This is a tricky claim. Some schools can do far more with much less. Take Stuyvesant High School. The per-student expenditure at Stuy is about $9,000 a year.
But the per-student expenditures at the worst performing high schools in the city are well over $12,000 a year.
Where does the money go? Lots of places. Security is a big expense at many schools and a small expense at some. Meanwhile, there are layers of former teachers who are have become non-teaching employees at many of the worst schools. The classes may be huge, but part of the reason is due to the various schemes available to teachers who want to stay in the system but get out of the classroom. Becoming some form of "coach" is one gambit.
Dan, you wrote:
"There are exceptions (PS 217 in Brooklyn, for example - where 81% of kids are eligible for free lunch - has great resources) but in general you will not find the same equipment/resources/programs in a public school in a wealthy neighborhood as you do in a poor neighborhood."
The school system is a bureaucratic monopoly and its operation owes much to the management skills developed in the former Soviet Union. There are many black and gray markets within the official system.
The "free lunch" program is one of them. Schools are supposed to document the eligibility of kids who receive the "free lunch." Like all kids attending public schools, my kids have brought home the forms. We've returned them noting no free lunch is necessary. Nevertheless, I noticed that one school attended by one of my kids had a "free lunch" population of nearly 100%. This figure defied reality.
It was obvious the principal was inflating the "free-lunch" population to bring more funding to the school. Who can blame the principal?
There are other accounting gimmicks schools use to increase funding. There are federally funded tutoring programs that operated at many troubled schools.
One of the ironies is that teachers having little success in the classroom are then hired at good rates to work in the after-school programs to take a second shot at teaching the same kids.
Then there's the Learning Leaders program. It's a volunteer organization of 14,000 adults who tutor for FREE at city schools.
But one factor separates the better-funded schools from the lesser-funded schools -- parental fund-raising activities.
PS 321 has collected revenue from the weekend flea market in its front playground for decades. But there are hundreds of schools that have no chance of earning free-market cash with the same success as PS 321.
Posted by: occasional teacher at March 13, 2007 1:30 PM
it's always thin pickings this time of year. The best deals have already sold in the spring and early summer. What's left usually is overpriced or has something wrong with it.
People are so worried about a bubble that they think prices are falling even when they aren't.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 1:36 PM
Anonymous at March 13, 2007 1:25 PM, you wrote:
"Schools can improve pretty quickly."
True. But that doesn't mean they will and it doesn't mean the process started shortly before the improvement was noticed. And it doesn't mean that anecdotal, off-the-cuff assessments were accurate in the first place.
You wrote:
"PS154 in Park Slope and Windsor Terrace were not considered good schools."
It all depends on who you ask and whether you actually get inside the building. My personal experience with 154 in Windsor Terrace began in 1997. I heard the same comments about the school. What I learned was this: the blabbermouths yammering about 154 had no idea what they were talking about. Because I lived around the corner at the time, I walked the halls a number of times, met with the principal, talked with the teachers and paid attention to the kids in the neighborhood who attended.
My assessment in 1997: Excellent public school. Moreover, it was actually operating BELOW capacity in those days, and the building itself wasn't off-putting, as some public school buildings are. I called it an undiscoverre4d gem of the school system.
Of course, Windsor Terrace was only just beginning to feel the Park Slope overflow a decade ago. Once renters from Park Slope bought homes in Windsor Terrace, the new residents proclaimed PS 154 the most improved school in Brooklyn. Imagine that!
You wrote:
"The same will happen to at least some of the schools in PLG, Prospect Heights (PS9 is on the way), Crown Heights, and Bed-Stuy once a critical mass of parents committed to their neighborhood schools decide to push for improvement."
In other words, when all the uninvolved parents and their uninvolved student off-spring are outnumbered by caring parents and diligent students, results will improve. I certainly agree with you there.
Posted by: occasional teacher at March 13, 2007 1:45 PM
I don't understand how veggieburger and her/his ilk don't see that prices have already dropped! I've been looking for awhile now, and there is no question that things are cheaper. Some places are still going for top dollar, and certainly the low end is moving, but the majority of houses are either sitting on the market for months or selling for less than they would have a year ago. I'll certainly agree that the market is in flux and that many places are being listed at or are still listed at high prices, but those ones aren't selling. Every time I see a house, the realtor tells me that the price is 'negotiable' and now I have realtors calling me to see I'm interesed in places!! It's about time!
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 1:53 PM
occasional teacher - interesting comments - thanks.
Posted by: Dan at March 13, 2007 2:01 PM
linusvanpelt, you wrote:
Public schools get better when parents who live near them send their kids there. If you wait for someone else to do the work for you, it will never happen. Period. Doesn't matter if it's PLG or Park Slope."
Yes it does. It's all in the numbers.
You wrote:
"The standard answer to this is: "Well, I'm not willing to force my child to be a social experiment." That's usually BS and a false choice."
No it isn't. And think what you want, but much of the white-flight in the 60s and 70s was driven by "bussing". Some parents chose the moment bussing was forced on them to enroll their kids in private schools, most notably my Catholic school buddies.
You wrote:
"In most Brooklyn neighborhoods that are (like PLG) largely middle-class or above, your child will not be in physical danger..."
True for grades K through 5.
You wrote:
"...nor will his or her options in life be ruined by going to the public school."
There are obvious reasons kids from most NYC public high schools don't attend good colleges, or in most cases, don't attend any college.
You wrote:
"It just means you will have to get off your ass and do more work -- by volunteering at the school and maybe by involving your child in more enriching activities outside school to make up for extras the school doesn't have. But a lot of parents can't be bothered to do that."
Or, when possible, parents buy the worst house in a neighborhood with the best school. But long story short, the best bet is to get your kid into the gifted program, either the Eagle or CIG program. If your kid passes the entrance test, you're situation is vastly improved, no matter where you live.
You observed:
"It amazes me how many people make populist arguments for moving to a neighborhood like PLG (I want to live somewhere diverse, I don't want to live with a bunch of homogeneous rich yuppies, I want a tight-knit community)--then immediately follow that up with, "And you can always send your kids to private school.""
Not every urban experience is necessary for a child's development. My wife grew up in Park Slope in the 60s and 70s when it was a mixed neighborhood in transition from a temporary low point to a neighborhood that has since experienced an apotheosis, at least in the minds of its residents.
In any case, kids get plenty of urban social benefits by living in Brooklyn and attending private school. My kids have done both, but are both in public schools today.
Posted by: occasional teacher at March 13, 2007 2:12 PM
I'm looking and prices are dropping. How much depends on the area and sanity of the original askings. I've seen 50G taken off houses in Boerum Hill, which is fairly negligible all the way to 200K taken off a flipper house in Midwood (Corcoran listing on Rugby). Depending on what you want and where, you can get some great deals right now.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 2:26 PM
occasional teacher:
"much of the white-flight in the 60s and 70s was driven by "bussing"...."
OK. But this isn't the 60s or 70s. I'm pretty sure no parent posting here plans on sending their kids to school three decades in the past. (If you own a time machine, then you really *can* afford private school.) And I highly doubt that most of the people buying homes and posting here face any such dire choice, except in their own minds.
"There are obvious reasons kids from most NYC public high schools don't attend good colleges, or in most cases, don't attend any college."
Yes, and those reasons have largely to do with the kids' home and economic backgrounds. To hear it told, you'd think that we had an epidemic of kids from upper-middle-class white-collar homes going to public schools and turning into gang members and illiterates. What we have instead is too many parents with time and resources choosing not to involve themselves in schools in ways that would benefit their kids, their neighbors and in the long run, all of us.
People love to throw around the term "community" here, but community's about more than doing a nice job on your cornice and composing angry blog comments about Fedders buildings.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at March 13, 2007 2:44 PM
My take - The apartment to private house ratio in and around this area means that it will be "up and coming" for years to come. Too many renters in (and owners of) those apartment buildings who either wont change that hood (they are complacent/don't care so long as it works for them), cant change it (they are low income/have other priorities), or are working against it (few bad apples).
In Brooklyn you are taking a very big gamble moving to an "up and coming" area with a lot of apartment dwellers and hoping for radical change. For every one owner invested in the neighborhood there are 10 renters who don't give a shit, and 1 or 2 who are actively changing the neighborhood for the worse, the former being not much better than the latter.
Certainly its a unique area - shockingly undervalued given its proximity to the park, but this is for a reason. There are certain negative aspects of the area (schools, crime, cleanliness of main streets, etc.) that will only change when the residents of the apartments change. Like it or not, there is just something about apartment density that allows things to become entrenched in a neighborhood for better or worse.
Posted by: Anon at March 13, 2007 2:48 PM
2:48, what you fail to see is that the very apt buildings you mention are filling up with young hipsters. You have already been proved wrong. Lanlords have an investment in getting as much money as they can for their apts. They are already onto this.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 3:02 PM
sorry, I meant landlords.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 3:03 PM
Anon 2:48 PM,
One of the biggest RECENT changes in PLG has been the change in the APARTMENT buildings, with young middle-class people moving in.
This thread on today's ATP is, perhaps, a bit tongue-in cheek, but it's on the mark IMO:
http://acrossthepark.typepad.com/atp/2007/03/hipsterclaus_is.html
Posted by: Bob Marvin at March 13, 2007 3:04 PM
Occasional teacher was right about P.S. 321 and funding: one reason it has better facilities and programs than many other public elementary schools is that the parents collectively raise and/or contribute hundreds of thousands of dollars for the school every year. That, and parents who are involved in general in their children's education, makes all the difference. Of course, this model is hard to duplicate if you don't have a coterie of highly educated stay-at-home mothers who have a lot of time to volunteer, which is the case in Park Slope.
Posted by: Park Sloper at March 13, 2007 3:21 PM
And 3:02, would you seek to convince me that "young hipsters" are changing PLG for the better? It would take a mass exodus of renters both in PLG and the heavily dense areas immediately south to bring about the kind of changes the people above are speaking of. Remember - in PLG and adjacent areas there is no new high rise construction like there is in wburg and elsewhere. If there were, it would change the area fast. The process of replacing residents who don't care with hipsters (who do?) to change the nabe will be long and slow, and even people who are complacent in terms of neighborhood progress and improvement will fight long and hard to keep their apartments. Not saying it won't happen, but think 15 years, not 5.
Posted by: Anon at March 13, 2007 3:26 PM
My daughter goes to a wonderful school in Chinatown with a student body mostly from very poor families. With an enterprising principal and a small group of parents who know how to write a grant proposal, the school has a great arts program (in addition to fabulous academics, wonderful teachers, first-rate teste scores, etc., etc.). Great schools can be built on a shoestring. IMHO it starts with the principal, who can inspire participation by parents who can be supportive, even if it's not a huge group.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 3:31 PM
linusvanpelt, you wrote:
"OK. But this isn't the 60s or 70s."
True. But the school system is a major determinant for parents deciding whether to stay in the city or move to the burbs. With two kids in private school, the economics of the suburbs look pretty good.
Clearly, the city -- Brooklyn -- is a powerful draw these days. I don't expect that to change anytime soon. But if the employees of the school system get the funding they seek, our relatively low city property taxes will start looking like those paid by our friends who scooted to the suburbs. If property taxes rise to suburban levels, sending kids to average city schools becomes painful.
You responded:
"Yes, and those reasons have largely to do with the kids' home and economic backgrounds."
Completely true. And NOTHING can be done about this.
You said:
"To hear it told, you'd think that we had an epidemic of kids from upper-middle-class white-collar homes going to public schools and turning into gang members and illiterates."
That's not what I hear. But at my neighborhood meetings I've heard many parents complain about the fact that their kids at Midwood High School are getting mugged on the way home by some of those kids who are NOT upper-middle-class white kids from white-collar homes going to public schools.
However, I think things have improved indirectly as a result of the muslim presence in the area. Cops on foot patrol are now visible in my neighborhood -- West Midwood -- every day. In the past, there was no foot patrolling. Only the occasional police cruiser rolling by.
Concerns about terrorism have led to the increase in the police presence.
You wrote:
"What we have instead is too many parents with time and resources choosing not to involve themselves in schools in ways that would benefit their kids, their neighbors and in the long run, all of us."
An organization that functions as it should is expected to do so without a lot of outside help. A segment of our public school system gets along withou parental assistance. But that's exactly the segment in which most parents want to participate.
Does PS 321 need ANOTHER parent to clog the hallways? There should be a special metric for that school noting the parent:teacher ratio.
The extraordinary need for volunteer effort from parents to keep schools from heading down the slippery slope into chaos is not a good sign. But that is one problem with all bureaucratic monopolies. Their effectiveness deteriorates. In most cases, the foundering organization simply disappears. But because we are talking about schools, that will never happen. Thus, the life-support system -- free parental labor -- becomes essential.
In any case, it's a numbers game. When good parents and decent students outnumber the negative element, results improve.
Posted by: occasional teacher at March 13, 2007 3:33 PM
Anonymous at March 13, 2007 3:31 PM, wrote:
"My daughter goes to a wonderful school in Chinatown with a student body mostly from very poor families."
What percentage of the students are asian?
You wrote:
"With an enterprising principal and a small group of parents who know how to write a grant proposal, the school has a great arts program (in addition to fabulous academics, wonderful teachers, first-rate teste scores, etc., etc.)."
That's how the game is played.
You concluded:
"Great schools can be built on a shoestring. IMHO it starts with the principal, who can inspire participation by parents who can be supportive, even if it's not a huge group."
Yes and no. An average principal can achieve extraordinary results with the aid of involved parents. It is simply not possible for a principal to overcome the social pathologies students bring to school with them.
If you want a great school, first, you have to get a sizable bunch of good to great parents. They and their kids will crowd out the problems.
Posted by: occasional teacher at March 13, 2007 3:43 PM
Occasional Teacher, would you please try to keep your posts to a reasonable length?
Posted by: Exasperated Reader at March 13, 2007 3:49 PM
It doesn't matter a hoot if hipsters "care" or not. The point is that their influx leads to service providers following. And that leads to amenities.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 3:49 PM
I looked in Lefferts Manor because we have freinds there. I loved the people and the houses, and I decided that I could live with the lack of amenities. But after spending a lot of time there and talking a lot to our friends who live there, I decided that there were two aspects of the area I could not live with. One is Flatbush avenue, the noise, the filth, and the people hanging on the corners. Even if better amenities come, the people living along Flatbush won't change. I just don't want to deal with that on a regular basis. Two is the isolation. Our friends, who have lived there for years, talked about feeling trapped on a tiny island and not being able to get off except by subway or car. Again, not for me. I understand why some like the area, but it is way too edgy and removed for me.
Posted by: no thanks at March 13, 2007 3:51 PM
I think Occasional Teacher's posts have been informative. And the topic of schools is more important to home values than cornices, as someone said. So it's a relevant topic.
On PLG, I agree the amenities are terrible. There's really no debate there. But it's also very true that with hip renters come amenities. Those are the people who gentrified 5th Avenue in Park Slope, which used to be a dump. It's all about the young hip renters shopping, eating and drinking.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:13 PM
No one said that OT's posts weren't informative. Please read the post you're replying to.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:15 PM
The "hip renters" in PLG are all on Ocean and Lincoln. The problem is Flatbush. Even Bob Marvin will agree that there has been no real change in the make-up of the residents of the apartment buildings on Flatbush Ave. Those buildings are far too run-down and derelict to attract even the hipest hipster.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:18 PM
"And the topic of schools is more important to home values than cornices, as someone said. So it's a relevant topic."
see...but this is not a website about home values, my friend. this is a website about brownstones and people who love them. thus all the articles on homes. get it now??
while schools may play a factor in this, sure...talking about cornices, architecture, and the actual homes IS the reason for this board. try the park slope message board for more details on schools.
in case you haven't noticed, mr. bronwnstoner writes about homes, not ps321.
thanks.
Posted by: anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:19 PM
Thank you 4:19pm. I couldn't have said it better myself!
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:21 PM
Anon.4:13,
Re: "hip renters", I think one reason that amenities have lagged in PLG is that most renovation-type activity has been centered on Lefferts Manor (NO renters) and the rest of the PLG HD and surrounding brownstone blocks (FEW renters). The recent changes in the apartment buildings should provide a customer base for greatly improved amenities over the next few years.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at March 13, 2007 4:24 PM
Thanks nothing. Mr. Brownstoner and everyone who visits this site are all obsessed with home values and sales stats on historic houses in Brooklyn. Have you ever been to this site before? OBSESSED. So that would includes info on schools and amenities and anything that influences home values. Schools are brought up all the time here, whenever the value of a neighborhood or house is discussed. Get used to it.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:25 PM
People are so crazy about PS321 that I have thought of doing what I need to do to get a variance (lie wheedle). But I do wonder if this is a case of overhype? Just curious if you don't feel like you ...
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:27 PM
oh, i'm used to it. and i read the site every day, thank you. and love it. no thanks to comments like yours.
my point is how dare you say that the cornice comment or anything related to the ACTUAL HOME is not relevant.
you are simply wrong about the purpose of this website.
and while YOU may be obsessed with home values, i am not. and yes, i do own.
Posted by: anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:28 PM
The make-up of renters in the large Patio Gardens apartments on Flatbush is changing - somewhat along the lines of the buildings on Ocean - from what I see.
Posted by: anon at March 13, 2007 4:30 PM
Bob, you didn't agree or disagree that there has been no change to the residents of the Flatbush buildings, which was my point. I agree that the Ocean ave buidlings are changing. But it is Flatbush that is the real issue and the reason that the area has not boomed.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:30 PM
True that, Bob Marvin. Once some amenties come in (like K-Dog and Enduro on Lincoln in PLG) and the hip renters start trickling in, the change can be dramatic and quick. Especially with the super high commercial rent the Park Slope landlords are now charging, I would think some restranteurs especially newer younger ones, will welcome another area in Brooklyn to be a pioneer in, where they can get a long lease cheap.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:31 PM
i love how new yorks are so dellusional. it's quite amusing. while plg might have it's good and bad, to say that an area with homes pushing 1 million dollars has not boomed is a bit idiotic.
please come back to reality...just a little bit!!??
please.
when will it have boomed? in 5 years when the homes are 3 million only???!!!
Posted by: anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:33 PM
Anon. 4:18,
Not just Lincoln & Ocean, but lots of other streets--Hawthorne, for example. BTW, I DON'T agree with you about Flatbush. I've seen signs of change there too. I certainly don't expect a wholesale population turnover, but a larger customer base for more upscale businesses is another matter.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:34 PM
I moved to Park Slope when my daughter was 6 months old because we were living in a very small 1-bedroom apartment in the East Village with the crib in the living room and we couldn't afford anything bigger in Manhattan. We found a 2 BR apartment in the middle of Park Slope for the same price. (This was in 1993.) My husband lived here before we got married and we both liked the neighborhood though I would have preferred to stay in Manhattan.
I definitely did not move to Park Slope for PS 321, we're not in the zone for 321 and I never considered trying to lie or wheedle for a variance. I'm not going to say it's overrated, but it's really not the only game in town, no matter what the PS 321 parents tell themselves. Rolling Eyes
I'm not aware of a large contingent of hipsters in the Slope and haven't noticed them discriminating against me.
Posted by: Red Robbin at March 13, 2007 4:34 PM
4:28, I love talking architecture. I just think it's very difficult to get people to invest the great amount of money and time it takes to save an old house, if there isn't promise of it being a good investment. The increased "heat" over brownstone Brooklyn is very healthy for old houses.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:34 PM
Thats not the answer either. We as a community need to find something for these kids to do. They damn politians aren't helping them any. They don't have centers to go to or a positive place to hang out. We need to help them as much as we can. If the do go to prison like you said and they can't afford to live in the neighborhood that they grew up in they still come back. Then they become homeless adults and because this place is all they know they end up on the streets of our neighborhood. We have to do better then this people. Like it or not they are our future.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:36 PM
Anon 4:34 was me. I switched to Safari because I was having trouble with Firefox, but Safari will not let me log in. Anyway, I DON"T agree with anon. 4:18, despite his/her expectations.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at March 13, 2007 4:37 PM
No, no, no- very rarely are parents the best option for sculpting their young in to responsible adults. What do you think this is? A place where people take responsibility for themselves and their kids?
Come on now- I'm all for giving a kid a chance but I'm sure as hell not about making excuses for them or their parents. Find them something to do? Uh, how 'bout go to school. Study. Work. Do something to improve your life. Not having a rec center where you can play ping pong doesn't make being a thug acceptable or even understandable.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:38 PM
4:33, Good point, but, an area with homes pushing 1 million, as you put it, has increased as well as the average home across the country in the last few years. To "boom", in this context, is to have at least more than doubled in value, as have many brooklyn areas.
I pass along Flatbush in PLG quite often and I see no signs of change.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:43 PM
yes, all park slopers...they are all the same.
just like all gays are the same, asians, everyone.
i think you are the one that is only so hip. please don't speak for the rest of us.
Posted by: anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:47 PM
I prefer 107 to 321. 321 is great but overcrowded, whereas 107 is great and for now, it is not over crowded
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 4:58 PM
Yes, the hipsters have hit Ocean and Lincoln Aves. Yes, a lot of the apartment buildings on Flatbush are poorly managed and in terrible disrepair. But there are also nice rental buildings in PLG on the other side of Flatbush Ave (near Bedford/Rogers Aves). The hipsters could converge.
Then again, how is this stretch of Flatbush Avenue so different from the divisive stretch that runs between Park Slope and Prospect Heights? That part of Flatbush Ave is STILL seedy despite the neighborhoods around it.
Posted by: noq at March 13, 2007 5:33 PM
I absolutely don't feel like they missed out on anything. They went to the Brooklyn New School, which was wonderful. Plenty of their friends went to PS 321, and from what I could tell, it seemed like a good school, but by no means perfect. It always seemed really overhyped to me. Parents would tell me about the problems their kids were having there (mostly complaints about the teachers) and then their eyes would glaze over and they'd chant, "But it's such a great community." It seems to inspire a cult-like devotion. But BNS did too, among some parents -- people have this need to feel like the parenting choices they make are not just the best choices for them, but that all other options are bad.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 5:33 PM
Here, I'll describe the house for you - since I saw it on house tour. Garden floor - kitchen in the back - cherry colored cabs. Parlor floor, double parlor. 2nd floor, master bedroom with bathroom in the corner (not ensuite) and closets in the middle with shaving sinks there as well.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 5:34 PM
I think PLG is cool. I went to the open house at Ocean ave featured last week and it was unbelievable. Did anyone else see that house? If it was on the other side of the park it would be worth 3 million. To still find deals like that, just because they are on the wrong side of the park is cool. That area is definetly on the upswing. I just think all of brooklyn is out of control price wise and PLG is still semiaffordable.
It take 5 min to drive to 7th & Union PSFCoop. 5 min to restaurants on smith st.
Posted by: lex at March 13, 2007 8:37 PM
i bought my 800 sq ft. one bedroom coop on hawthorne b/w bedford and rogers last year for 200k. minutes to the park, minutes to four subway lines, quick passage to manhattan. dearth of some types of amenities? clearly. but guess what, i consider a mortgage check that won't shove me into foreclosure the biggest amenity of them all.
Posted by: franz fanonymous at March 13, 2007 10:05 PM
I went to the Ocean Ave open house too, and I had much the same reaction as 8:37--what a deal! Then I walked around the area, up Flatbush, over to Nostrand, south to Parkside , and then north a bit. And I thought, Oh! That's why this house is so cheap! Parts of PLG are "cool" and parts are totaly not, and the areas on all 3 sides are downright horrifying. I won't say it will never change, because who knows, but I'm not going to live there until it does.
And 8:37, if I wanted to live somewhere where shopping was a 5 minute drive, I'd move to the burbs. At least there there is parking, so you don't spend another 10 minutes looking for a spot.
Posted by: Julian at March 13, 2007 10:11 PM
I totally disagree with tacking on another .5 mil for on the park location. Park is nice, yes, but also comes with litter, noise, farmer's market (I'd rather be near the market than have it in my front yard). That said, I'm clearly not in the running for said house, but lucky for me it's also not really my style. Obviously others feel differently.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 13, 2007 10:21 PM
It's funny...I grew up in Brooklyn, & our neighborhood didn't have a rec center, a pool, or anything else. I remember thinking "well, if it was a poorer area, we'd have those things". Yet, I grew up, went to school, got a job, bought a house, etc...Why? Because my parents raised me right: to respect myself & respect others, to know how to behave in public. My brother, sister, & I all graduated college while being raised in a one-income, blue-collar household. No one ever gave us a hand-out or made excuses for us. Excuse me, I have to call Mom & Dad now, and take care of MY kids.
Posted by: Wallis at March 14, 2007 9:32 AM
10:23pm: Come on, we know what the "real" difference between PS and FG is...
7:09am: There are plenty of dry cleaners in FG; I used to go to one on Fulton before I discovered one closer to where I live in CH. As for food...uh what is that big grocery store at on Atlantic Ave called???
Posted by: supergirl at March 14, 2007 12:41 PM
to answer you 10:23. what park slope has that ft. greene does not (and i LOVE ft. greene) is well...the park.
it's a huge asset and doesn't compare to ft. greene park...obviously. having prospect park on our doorstep counts for a lot, in my opinion. i know it's one of my favorite things about the neighborhood. being able to walk a couple blocks on a nice day and be inside the park is quite a luxury and people will pay a premium for it.
Posted by: anonymous at March 14, 2007 2:18 PM
To get back on topic, that (Prospect Park) is another advantage PLG shares with PS and WT :-)
Posted by: Bob Marvin at March 14, 2007 2:57 PM
The troll is actually a PLG renter who is quite in love with the nabe and desperately wants to own a townhouse in this beautiful section of brownstone Brooklyn. However, he can't afford to own so he makes disparaging remarks about the nabe with the hope that this will drive people away and prices will eventually return to 1960s levels.
Troll, I seriously doubt that prices will ever return to $50,000 per house that you so desperately crave for and I further don't believe that you could even afford the 5% down payment if it did. I'm truly shocked that you can even afford a computer with broadband connection or is it in your momma's name?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 14, 2007 7:54 PM
the mexican restaurant(lincoln road) opened by the patois enterprise from smith st is amazing!!!!!!!!
if you doubt the future of PLG, have an excellent dinner there, it is like smith st 8 years ago!
THE FUTURE CHIC!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: bryan at March 15, 2007 10:19 PM
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