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March 27, 2007

House of the Day: 621 Morgan Avenue

At $949,999, this three-family house in Greenpoint might be kinda interesting for a single person or young couple with no immediate space needs to grow into. The existing three floors are a deeper-than-normal 55 feet and there's still enough FAR that one could build a fourth floor as of right. More interestingly, judging from the interior photos, the house has a decent amount of old-world charm, a reminder that the faux siding now on the exterior wasn't always there. We curious why more people haven't restored the facades of the houses in this part of town. Presumably, the answer is money, but at some point hopefully one by-product of the upward pressure on prices will be a renewed interest in returning the houses to their original state. What do you think the facade was originally made of?
621 Morgan Avenue [Nest Seekers via Trulia] GMAP P*Shark
Photo by Scott Bintner for Property Shark

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not everybody has the deep pockets of the web impresario ...

also i suspect the restoration mindset has not yet taken root in places like greenpoint; to some, vinyl siding might look just dandy.

now, find me the single person who has the scratch to buy a place like this, who would actually buy a place like this. it's a haul from the G train.

Posted by: Jimmy Legs at March 27, 2007 12:15 PM

$950K to live on top of an oil spill...i'll pass.

Posted by: what bubble? at March 27, 2007 12:20 PM

Bstoner, please stick to what your site is named for... BROWNSTONES and the like...
and please don't post ugly ish like this unless there asking less than $500k!

Yuck! who cares "what the the facade was originally made of"?

Posted by: me at March 27, 2007 12:28 PM

how are the amenities in gp? it might help explain the price of this blue-doored little gem.

Posted by: anonomamo at March 27, 2007 12:31 PM

and by gem i mean ungem.

Posted by: anonomamo at March 27, 2007 12:33 PM

a million dollars does not get you much any more, especially in a high-prestige location like Greenpoint.
Actually there are nicer parts of Greenpoint, but this doesn't look like one of them.

Posted by: Serge at March 27, 2007 12:48 PM

What is wrong with people today? Here's an idea, if you're not interested, go on to read something else. Or find something else to do. But to start bitching at a writer, or blogger, or whoever, because he's not typing the exact words on the exact subjects you would like him to...is sad.

But I suppose I'm someone who *is* interested in what's behind that siding. I'd love to know more about the cretins who at one point in our city's history were apparently very effective salesmen, encouraging nearly all Greenpoint to cover up what were once probably lovely, if modest, brick buildings with vomit-colored vinyl. I imagine there are some good stories there.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 12:50 PM

you can buy top quality brick in gpt for $1.5mn. if you have the "scratch" for $950 vinyl, why not buy something nice? this is overpriced for the hood.

Posted by: gpt at March 27, 2007 12:57 PM

Looks kind of different from the Tax Photo(1940?). Maybe brick facade originally..?

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 12:59 PM

Morgan Avneue is WAY over on the far side of the hood. Not a lot of amenities there. Yes, it's right over the oil spill.

As for what's under the siding...a lot of the houses, like mine, had very nice clapboard detailing (proof is in the 1940's tax photos). Unfortunately, back it the '70s, no one was in the restoration mindframe (people were running out of the city for the burbs as fast as they could) and so homeowners either took it down or just covered it up with siding. It provided a clean look at a reasonable price.

Many current Brownstoner fans and commentators are probably too young to remember what city neighborhoods were like in the '70s, but believe it or not, the siding actually IMPROVED the look of the neighborhood.

30+ years later, with a different asthetic, mindset and clientele, the neighborhood will once again go thru a transition. i.e. Starbucks is opening at the corner of Manhattan and Greenpoint.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 1:01 PM

Brownstoners post says there is enough far to build a 4th floor. It is my understanding that you cannot do an addition on a frame house. Am I wrong?

Also, gpt 12:57 there is a big difference between 950 and 1.5 mil even if you do get a brick facade.

Posted by: anon at March 27, 2007 1:03 PM

These are not brick houses, they are frame houses, they share a low attic called a cock loft, this is how fire spreads from one to the other. The first thing you need to do if you buy one of these is to build a firewall at the attic.
Originally they were faced with clapboard, or more likely, wood shingle.

Posted by: Serge at March 27, 2007 1:05 PM

Also in terms of "amenities," KeyFood on McGuiness has as large of a selection of better meats and organic produce as any supermarket in lets say the Slope. The Garden on Manhattan Ave is a fantastic whole foods style store. Closer to the Northside and a stretch from Morgan, there are shops opening left and right, a great new kids bookstore with little chairs and rugs to sit, a winebar/coffee bar on Franklin about to open; a great new restaurant also on Franklin called Brooklyn Label much much more....

Posted by: anon at March 27, 2007 1:09 PM

This building is located right on top of the largest underground oil spill in us history.

Posted by: Francis at March 27, 2007 1:12 PM

Ugliest house in Brooklyn?

I guess you could make like the Clampetts and discover oil in your backyard when digging your garden, then move to Beverly Hills.

Posted by: west at March 27, 2007 1:15 PM

Why do people keep harping on the oil spill? It's not like anyone uses well water in this neighborhood...

The only danger would be to dig down into the earth, then eat the dirt.

If you are a ditch digging, dirt eater...then you have tons of other problems..

Posted by: AnonymousNegro at March 27, 2007 1:21 PM

West,
good one.
Love it.

-black gold, texas tea....

Posted by: Serge at March 27, 2007 1:23 PM

Can you tell me what a firewall is? I have a frame rowhouse in Greenpoint, with a short fourth floor, which I, based on what you are saying am now assuming is also a 'cock loft.'

Posted by: anon at March 27, 2007 1:25 PM

AnonymousNegro at 1:21,

What you said just didn't seem right...I just found this in a NY Attorney General's report:

Health effects from exposure to petroleum products vary depending on the concentration of the substance and the length of time that one is exposed. Breathing petroleum vapors can cause nervous system effects (such as headache, nausea, and dizziness) and respiratory irritation. Very high exposure can cause coma and death. Liquid petroleum products which come in contact with the skin can cause irritation and some can be absorbed through the skin. Chronic exposure to petroleum products may affect the nervous system, blood and kidneys. Gasoline contains small amounts of benzene, a known human carcinogen. Animals exposed to high levels of some petroleum products have developed liver and kidney tumors. Whether specific petroleum products can cause cancer in humans is not known; however, there is evidence that occupationally exposed people in the petroleum refining industry have an increased risk of skin cancer and leukemia.

Posted by: west at March 27, 2007 1:28 PM

Here's the link if anyone wants it. You can also get Andrew Cuomo's wildly underwhelming bio there too.

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/reports/oil_spills/oil_spill.html

Posted by: west at March 27, 2007 1:36 PM

he said, "cock loft"

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 1:43 PM

This house, like most houses in Greenpoint, is a wood frame tenement originally built in the cheapest manner possible to warehouse the working poor circa 1900. There is no "old world charm" here. There is only an ugly, worn-out building at the end of its miserable working life. Of course you could keep fixing it up for years, but we'd all be better off it were replaced by safer and longer-lasting housing made of cement and brick. The shared attic spaces in these buildings are an extreme fire hazard (a few blocks away, several of them quickly burned down last year as fire jumped from house to house). For what it's worth, the building almost certainly had wood shingle or siding originally; it might still be under the aluminum or vinyl, but it would hardly be worth uncovering.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 1:50 PM

anon 1:25,
A firewall is a wall that is constructed of fire-resistant materials. The wall construction is typically "fire-rated", meaning that the wall construction has been tested in a laboratory for its fire resistance qualities. Usually the ratings are measured in hours, such as 2-hour or 3-hour rated.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 1:52 PM

My guess is that the vinyl siding was added to many of these homes as a way of weather-proofing/winterizing the homes. I suspect it was economically driven (lower heating and cooling costs) and it became trendy maybe in the 30's, 40's or 50's. Different mindset (more practical/less driven by aesthetics).

But that's just my guess; nothing to back this up. I also suspect that similar motivations led landlords to overlay lineoleum over wood floors (easier to clean and maintain?) and maybe even the wall-panelling that was so popular in the 70's.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 1:56 PM

Anon 1:52- thanks- do you know who does this sort of work? Or where to get such materials?

Posted by: anon at March 27, 2007 1:57 PM

anon 1:50- YOU ARE WRONG; these houses have a lot of "old world charm," not sure whats up your butt, but I have been in many of these houses, and they have beautiful moulding, ceiling medallions, beautiful old doors etc...as any house maybe not as ornate, built in those times. It's the new stuff going up that is devoid of any charm

Posted by: anon at March 27, 2007 2:01 PM

it's obvious that few of the posters above have ever lived in a clapboard house. why cover it with vinyl (or, perhaps, aluminum)? three words: no more painting.

but i don't quite get, b'stoner, why you think it would be great to rip off the siding, but also alright to build on another floor, which would appear totally out of character with the houses on either side. preservation and remuddling at the same time?

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 2:06 PM

These houses have lots of original detailing inside. The CURRENT oustide appearance does not lead one to believe it, but we all know about judging a book by its cover.

People need to stop with this "tear it down and build new" mentality. Take a look at some of the new stuff being put together faster than you can say "waterfront development". Belvedere is a perfect case in point. Their designs are cookie-cutter and stupid with the "sleeping loft" (which only makes sense if you are a dwarf) and their quality is poor.

Give me an old house with character any day and I'll fix it up. I'm doing that now. In Greenpoint.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 2:15 PM

Brownstoner has certainly changed his tune over the years. To hell with the other neighborhoods...build them up....max out FAR....max out FAR....max out FAR....add another story...

I hope you are just playing devil's advocate. Otherwise you are really a turn coat.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 2:29 PM

Dear anon,
A cock loft is not a short floor but rather a tight crawlspace above the top floor ceiling. They exist in many speculative houses from the 19th century. it is continuos from one house to the next providing an ideal way for flames to spread houses.
The thing to do is to build a fire rated partition, preferably of hollow brick, but at minimum of two layers of fire-rated sheetrock. This will stop, or delay, the flames from spreading via the roof framing.
These buildings are fire traps because they only have one means of egress. They should all have sprinkers, but that is not required, unless, as someone wrote, you want to add a story on top, then all kinds of life safety regs kick in.
-more than you wanted to know.
sorry.

Posted by: Serge at March 27, 2007 2:29 PM

I think Serge should have his own column on here. What a wealth of knowledge.

I would add that you should never anyone into your cock loft unless he at least buys you flowers or dinner first.

Posted by: west at March 27, 2007 2:34 PM

I used to live on this block. It's basically the butt end of driggs and way to close to the BQE. It's a really weird block it's almost literally split in two. (one side of the block polish the other Puerto Rican). In the summer it's super loud with kids playing hip-hop out of their cars, also with the windows open there's a constant white noise from the BQE. The closest train to Manhattan is the Graham Ave L stop, a 15 minute walk underneath the BQE which is basically dirty and loud. There's a super nice park about 4 blocks away and nice little coffee shop called "Cup of Joe's" I think. There's basically nothing else except for a few dive bars but that could have changed since I left. At one point there was the lyric lunge which attracted hipsters and hardcore kids but that's long gone. There's a few cool lofts in the hood that host shows. More and more hipsters everyday, which is beleive it or not a welcome to the polish drunks who are always passed on the corner and underneath the BQE. Oh, it's about a 30 minute walk to Franklin Ave, and almost 20 to bedford. In short, this place is just not worth that price, especially because of the oil spill.

Posted by: bob at March 27, 2007 2:37 PM

I used to live on this block. It's basically the butt end of driggs and way to close to the BQE. It's a really weird block it's almost literally split in two. (one side of the block polish the other Puerto Rican). In the summer it's super loud with kids playing hip-hop out of their cars, also with the windows open there's a constant white noise from the BQE. The closest train to Manhattan is the Graham Ave L stop, a 15 minute walk underneath the BQE which is basically dirty and loud. There's a super nice park about 4 blocks away and nice little coffee shop called "Cup of Joe's" I think. There's basically nothing else except for a few dive bars but that could have changed since I left. At one point there was the lyric lunge which attracted hipsters and hardcore kids but that's long gone. There's a few cool lofts in the hood that host shows. More and more hipsters everyday, which is beleive it or not a welcome to the polish drunks who are always passed out on the corner and underneath the BQE. Oh, it's about a 30 minute walk to Franklin Ave, and almost 20 to bedford. In short, this place is just not worth that price, especially because of the oil spill.

Posted by: bob at March 27, 2007 2:39 PM

I think we are really downsizing our expectations here. I couldn't go in and out of this place every day without becoming ill from ugliness. I don't have to eat oily dirt ala anonymous Negro or get brain damaged or go into a coma from petrofumes. Just poor butt ugliness would do me in. I could get a vinyl sided house like that in Staten Island (Port Richmond) for 300,000 dollars and get sick for much less money.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 2:45 PM

2:45 was me. I was so distressed thinking about that pink plastic house, I didn't log in.

Posted by: donatella at March 27, 2007 2:47 PM

Serge- What sort of contractor does work like you suggest. I know my contractor would be clueless? Thanks

Donatella- True this isn't the most aesthetically appealing situation, but not everyone has min of 1.5 mil to live in a brownstone, and a lot of people prefer the convenience of Brooklyn to Staten Island.

Posted by: anon at March 27, 2007 2:59 PM

It's true that many of the aforementioned Polish drunks prefer the convenience of Brooklyn to Staten Island. Unless of course they are the ones driving the Ferry.

Posted by: west at March 27, 2007 3:05 PM

West, keep such valueless comments to yourself.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 3:25 PM

2:37,

Wow! That's some picture of the nabe you just painted for everyone...

seller should probably hype the nearby park and coffee shop, and downplay the BQE white noise, super loud hip-hop, 15 minute subway commute, divebars, hipsters, hardcore kids, lofts hosting shows, passed out drunks, and the oil spill...

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 3:36 PM

Donatella,
Any good contractor knows what a two-hour fire rated partition is. Polish contractors are the best. Truly they are. Especially at preservation work.
They rebuilt many of their cities from scratch after the nazis destroyed them.
They came to ny in the 1970's and 80's actually knowing what stone carving is and what real plaster is etc etc. we owe them a lot. I'm not joking about that.
A local architect can also help you out. In fact, that would be the best way to go.

Posted by: Serge at March 27, 2007 3:37 PM

stop complaining about price jump from $950 crap to $1.5mn gold. if you just need a place to live, you can get something nice for way less than $950. "scratch" is all relative as certain bloggers who were mid-level wall streeters that now own multi-million dollar brownstones can tell you.

Posted by: gpt at March 27, 2007 3:54 PM

I live a couple of blocks from this block on Nassau and use this block when I get off the BQE. If you walk up to any of these vinyl sided row houses near Meeker ave (the BQE) you will see all the soot from the car and truck exhaust. I would keep the vinyl just because its easier to clean off that dirt. It is also right on top of the oil spill. Most of the residence on this block are pissed about the lawsuit because they feel if the lawsuit goes through their property value will turn to vapor.

Posted by: brklynsurfer at March 27, 2007 3:59 PM

Let's play "end this sentence".

At $949,999, this three-family house in Greenpoint might be kinda interesting for a single person or young couple with no immediate____________________.

Supergirl replies: need of a trust fund.

Posted by: supergirl at March 27, 2007 4:07 PM

Hello Serge, I pick on pink plastic houses because they can't pick on me back and because it is evil fun and I am sorry. I totally believe you about the Polish tradesmen and really respect good tradespeople. I learned this during my renovation and even though I had my share of eye bulging moments of frustration, nothing was better to me than finding someone who really knew what they were doing and somebody who can do good restoration, but I think your recommendation was for 2:59 and I agree that 2:37's vivid picture of Greenpoint is great.

I agree with

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 4:08 PM

i keep my trust fund in my cock loft.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 4:24 PM

B- this is more like the crap of the day. please no more

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 4:42 PM

Talk about being superficial.

The posts here would be very different if the house had clapboard. Preservationist would be jumping up and down. Learn to look beyond the surface.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 4:44 PM

i agree 4:44. and funny because if this were in the south slope, you all would be knocking down the door to get the place.

it's the bones of these houses that people care about most. the siding is the siding.

Posted by: anon at March 27, 2007 4:48 PM

Nope in south slope you can fart in the back yard with out the fear of igniting the whole block.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 5:16 PM

And you can breathe without choking on exhaust.

Posted by: SPer at March 27, 2007 5:34 PM

4:48,

yeah, no sh*t people would be knocking the door down at that price, because, first of all, the south slope doesn't have an out-of-control oil spill and 15 minute walks to the subways...

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 5:36 PM

What *are* the bones of houses like this made of? brick? or crapola wood like the facade?

Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2007 11:06 PM

"Many current Brownstoner fans and commentators are probably too young to remember what city neighborhoods were like in the '70s"

Quite possibly - someone who was 20 in 1972 would be 55 now.

Key Food on McGuinness has got better recently - but it's still a discount supermarket opposite two gas stations, and an auto repair place. There are a couple of passable streets East of McGuinness, but none are worth spending a million on, imvho.

Posted by: bill_stickers at March 28, 2007 10:05 AM

some greenpoint houses were originally built with clapboard/shingle outsides, but not all; the convention in the neighbourhood, at least the seventies, has been to cover the buildings with aluminum siding (or brickface of the "garden-state brickface" variety) regardless of the original, usually brick, exterior. Besides a mis-guided and aesthetically challenged attempt to improve the property, there seems to be a real element of peer pressure and a desire to conform within this overwhealingly polish homeowning community. siding's popularity has lately been eclipsed by synthetic stucco, which can give a building a clean look -- ala an italian villa or a days inn motel -- neither of which brooklyn has enough of.

Posted by: pfa at March 28, 2007 11:59 AM

oops -- I meant to say "at least since the seventies"

Posted by: pfa at March 28, 2007 12:01 PM

The stucco movement has come over from Germany, where such treatment is very popular.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 28, 2007 3:05 PM

I am a Greenpoint home owner. My house is brick foundation up to the first floor and then frame. I believe it is clapboard with an asphalt-like siding that was covered by plastic siding.

The 1940's photograph showed a lovely (gone) rooftop cornice, striped canvas awnings over every window and a big stoop with big iron railings (gone an replaced with a smaller more modern type).

Inside:
*beautiful plaster moldings
*marble fireplaces
*ceiling medallions
*multi-layered trim around doors and windows
*pocket doors (mine are gone, but I've installed some I bought via salvage - look terrific)
*detailed newel post and pretty banisters
*a circular dome at the top of the top stairs landing with a stained glass window on the inside
*a brick mantle
*6 fireplaces/hearthstones
*a pantry
*original tin ceilings

We removed 7+ layers of linoleum/carpeting and sanded and stained the floors...We've kept as much as possible with our own newer paint colors.

In time, we will bring back the wooden shingles and replace the siding. A number of buildings are starting to do this and they look amazing. We'll also create a doorway to the 'urban courtyard' so we don't have to use the 'squatting window' in the cellar.

Never judge a book by its cover. If you gut-reno, you lose so much of the beauty and history. Lots of homes in Greenpoint are standing tall and proud behind the blah exteriors. ANd lots of people DON'T want to rip down or build another floor on top of what is there.

Give us time and you will all see the dirty emerald start to sparkle again. Trust me.

Oh yes - lots of amenities, foodie havens, family atmosphere and yes, we are happily awaiting our new Starbucks. You'd be surprised how many non-Yuppies like that kind of thing (sippin and sittin and chattin and readin).

It will keep getting better. Maybe we'll even see the return of a movie theater!

Gavajun

Posted by: Anonymous at March 28, 2007 5:57 PM

Gavajun,

Nice post. 6 fireplaces? I'm envious - would be happy with 1...

Posted by: Anonymous at March 28, 2007 6:29 PM

Gavajun,
A warm thank you from your fellow Greenpointer. Please post a pic. I'd love to see the work.

Movie theaters.....back in the day -
-- the future location of the Starbucks was the Chopin Theater
-- Eckerd on Manhattan Ave was a movie theater
-- Polonaise on Greenpoint Ave was a movie theater
-- Princess Manor on Nassau Ave was a movie theater

Posted by: Anonymous at March 29, 2007 9:15 AM

« Co-op of the Day: 111 Hicks Street Voice of the Restaurateur: Bubby's Speaks »

March 27, 2007

House of the Day: 621 Morgan Avenue

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