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March 8, 2007

House of the Day: 351 Pacific Street

This 20-footer in Boerum Hill should spark a lot of interest at $2,095,000, we suspect, unless Boerum Hill has lost its hotness and someone forgot to tell us. The house has lots of old deets (including five marble fireplaces and two pier mirrors). There are some slightly non-traditional touches that work quite nicely, too, namely the skylight and splash of exposed brick in the lofty top-floor studio space. As for the price, it falls right between the $2.27 million that 90 Dean Street (one block west) sold for in November and the $1.965 million that 208 Dean Street (one block east) sold for in January. The first open house will be on Sunday from 12 to 2. Should be a crowded one.
351 Pacific Street [Corcoran] GMAP P*Shark

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Comments

How does Atlantic Yards affect this block?

Posted by: Anon at March 8, 2007 11:39 AM

AY will be several blocks east of this block, so the impact will likely not be large.

Posted by: z at March 8, 2007 11:56 AM

The Yards are going to be a nightmare for blocks exactly like this--people looking for shortcuts off Atlantic to take them back to the bridges.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 12:03 PM

Yes, I'm interested in seeing what this really looks like up close. A lot of the recent listings around Pacific and Dean look great on the web but truly need a LOT of renovation when you see them in person. Most need anywhere from $250k up to $450k of work. Not to disparage this place because it may not. If anyone checks this out, please let us know.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 12:05 PM

I live right behind this house. I park on Pacific Street all the time. Can't wait til game day when families drive in from the 'burbs looking for parking. Anyone who thinks this 'hood won't be affected by AY doesn't live anywhere near here.

Posted by: RentingForNow at March 8, 2007 12:07 PM

One thing I like about this place (proximity to AY notwithstanding) is the smart job someone did with the interior layout. The garden apartment is well laid out (with the living room in the middle), and the master suite upstairs with a walk-in closet is a smart way to maximize the notoriously narrow brownstone layout. It avoids the whole "skinny-2nd-bedroom" phenomenon that so many brownstone layouts have when they try to squeese two BR side-by-side on a floor. This one does seem pricey, but maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part. I do suspect these quiet Boerum Hill blocks will see a lot more traffic post-stadium, though. But I'm not convinced that will be a serious detriment to all buyers ... guess time will tell.

Posted by: me123 at March 8, 2007 12:25 PM

re layout - disagree. the garden living rm with closet looks more like an illegal 2nd bedrm. - why not rather remove the hallway & open the living rm to the kitchen to make a large open space. And for the master suite - the setup blocks any chance of cross breeze which is unfortunate (originally the bldings generally had some connection to allow crossbreeze).

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 12:38 PM

These AY comments about traffic on game days are ridiculous. Many subways and the LIRR are right there. Do you really think tons of fans will be driving to the stadium? Give me a break. People who argue against this project (density issues, traffic jams, etc.) seem to forget that we live across the river from Manhattan...Hmmm, let's see...Madison Square Garden, Lincoln Center, The Met, Broadway, etc...I guess Brooklyn is just too provincial to handle stuff like that...

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 12:50 PM

I'm not so sure that traffic will be as bad as people think.....you don't see too many people drive to games at madison square gardens..its just not worth the hassle.....

Once visitors discover how bad the traffic on atlantic/flatbush already is the train will become the standard means of getting there.

I'm in favor of the AY, I think it will be like Battery Park....not that I'd want to live in it, but its an improvement.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 12:52 PM

some more traffic (foot and otherwise) would be a good thing for brooklyn, if you ask me. it's really the ONLY thing missing for me when it comes to living in the borough.
it's still going to be quieter than manhattan as many of us love, but there are areas all around brooklyn that could benefit from some more people walking around...especially at night.

Posted by: anonymous at March 8, 2007 12:55 PM

I walk my dog on this block every night at around 10 or 11. It's very quiet at that time. I think it will be busy once the stadium is built though. Drivers will likely use east bound side streets to get to the stadium (i.e. State + Dean) and west bound streets (i.e. Pacific + Bergen) to leave.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 1:04 PM

the reflexive ay comments really are a bit much. yes, if you are buying a property next to the demo/construction site, that's going to be a real problem. and yes there will be more traffic at atlantic and flatbush - but that intersection is already choked, so what's the difference? but sidestreets like this will be fine, even when the thing finally gets built -- which will be many, many years from now. http://therealestate.observer.com/2007/03/15-years-for-atlantic-yards-says-bruces-cousin.html

Posted by: reality check at March 8, 2007 1:14 PM

To all those who think traffic and parking will not be an issue with AY: The hideous Ratner-built movie theater on Court Street was supposed to have no traffic impact too. Well, you can time the traffic and parking by the movie clock. Plus all those people who park drop all their trash on the sidewalk when they get into their cars (even with trash bins on every corner). Just wait... And we got this monstrosity instead of a supermarket thanks to the Brooklyn Heights Association.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 1:22 PM

Yes Anon 1:22. You could not be more on point. We live on Livingston and have since prior to the theatre going up. The difference is absolutely shocking. The foot traffic of groups of rowdy teenagers on weekend evenings was never present before the theatre, nor was the traffic and the constant double parking and dropping off on Court Street. The theatre really hurt the surrounding areas in my opinion.

I can't say how this compares or will compare with AY but if the theatre on Court is any example, it was a horrible move for the hood.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 1:32 PM

RE: TRAFFIC

Let me see if I understand this, Ratner's building the most densely populated area in AMERICA just off Flatbush Avenue and some people don't think it'll impact traffic too much??????

There's several reasons why the comparison between MSG and AY doesn't pass muster, and Brooklyn being too provincial isn't one of them:

One, MSG is actually built. We're 15 (yes 15) years away from AY being finished. That's 15 fun-filled years of literally hundreds of millions of tons of materials and construction equipment crawling through Brooklyn. How on earth does this not impact traffic?

Two, after 15 years we will have 6,000 residential units and god-only-knows how many zillions of commercial properties being delivered to/moved into/out of.

This isn't anything like Battery Park. It's several Battery Parks in half as much area built on top of Madison Square Garden - and all being built in an area already plagued with traffic problems.

Granted, game day traffic won't be worse than traffic on any other day, but every day will be miserable for those poor folks that live on what used to be quiet streets anywhere near this publicly funded abomination.

The AY backers (admittedly, many are paid) have, in a very Karl Rovian manner, framed the debate well - between Ratner's obscene development and no development at all. Development in a manner and scale that would benefit the community and not just Ratner's wealth has been conveniently removed from discussion.

Our quaility of life got sold.

Posted by: John at March 8, 2007 1:32 PM

The dynamics of the movie theater and those of Atlantic Yards are entirely different.

With 11 subway lines AND the LI Railroad underneath Atlantic Yards, the only people with no direct mass transportation access to AY live in NJ and CT.

The same cannot be said for the Court Street theater. Though there is good subway service NEARBY, moviegoers must hike a few blocks to reach it. Moreover, with 12 screens (?) in the complex and movies starting on a staggered schedule, the crowds moving through the area take on a very different quality than those arriving for a single event at AY.

Posted by: stockholder_revolt at March 8, 2007 1:37 PM

Anon 12:55 Are you new to Brooklyn?

Because we really don’t need extra foot traffic from loud sports fans yelling, pissing and turning cars over after the Nets lose.
Most people I know would want a nice big ol stank gate and an access pass for local residents and yes the city needs to pay for it too since we're just giving money away.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 1:40 PM

GMAP?

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 1:43 PM

If any area is likely to feel added parking pressure on game days at AY, it's the area on the opposite side of Flatbush from this house.

Knowledgeable spectators will no doubt discover what Yankees fans have known for years -- sometimes it's easier -- and cheaper -- to park on the Upper East Side and hop the 4 train to the Stadium.

With 11 subway lines to choose from, every New Yorker will find one that works.

Posted by: stockholder_revolt at March 8, 2007 1:48 PM

The availability of public transportation means nothing. They will drive and they will be driving aorund our neighborhoods lookign to park free on the street (cause after you've spent $100+ a ticket, you've got to watch the budget.

And people going to the movie theater will park next to the subway if they can't get closer -- it doesn't mean they will take the subway!

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 1:49 PM

Right about traffic and noise.
Areas around Smith St. and 5th Avenue Pk Slope have become dirtier, harder to park, very noisey especially on wkends.
Lets get rid of all those bars and restaurants.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 1:56 PM

Yes, those suburban people really love their public transportation, don't they. They would never think of driving into the city!! I raised three kids in BK and when I go to work I use public transportation, but anything we do as a family we take the car - for convenience, for safety, for flexibility in where we stop. Don't try to convince me that suburbanites are any different. People in our neighborhood are concerned that buildings will be torn down to make parking lots.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 2:00 PM

To my mind congestion pricing would go a long way towards addressing these issues without the necessity of getting rid of amenities that happen to be attractive to the car-driving crowd

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 2:06 PM

Am I the only one that cringes when I hear the word MTA. I'm still heated over that fare hike and stike.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 2:19 PM

AY may cause major congestion, but i wouldn't blame "sports fans".

how many home games a year do you think there will be? there will be 41.

41 home games a year. or about 1 every 9 days.

it's not THAT big of a deal.

you people make it sound like it will be every night.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 2:34 PM

John, you wrote:

"We're 15 (yes 15) years away from AY being finished. That's 15 fun-filled years of literally hundreds of millions of tons of materials and construction equipment crawling through Brooklyn. How on earth does this not impact traffic?"

Is there any reason to think many of the deliveries won't occur at night? Is there anything that prevents suppliers from shipping goods in via the LIRR?

Posted by: stockholder_revolt at March 8, 2007 2:44 PM

While using the existing tracks to ship materials is an interesting thought, once the yards are really theirs, they will be ripped up and trucked out. I imagine the first 5 years will be the busiest with steady flow of 18-wheelers. And I'd rather not have the bulk of the deliveries at night.

Also 41 home games is true, but add 41 concerts, 41 college basketball games, 41 nights of the circus, etc. There is guaranteed to be a steady flow of entertainment.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 2:53 PM

...I take back comparing the AY to battery park city.....after checking the facts it turns out that AY site is less than 1/4 the size of BPC...perhaps a better comparison would be with the Eastern Bloc style housing on 66th and Amsterdam Av....thanks for pointing out my error.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 3:01 PM

Anonymous at March 8, 2007 2:53 PM, you wrote:

"While using the existing tracks to ship materials is an interesting thought, once the yards are really theirs, they will be ripped up and trucked out."

Says who? The LIRR isn't departing.

In fact, one of the great projects now under discussion involves building a train tunnel from the AY site to the World Trade Center Site and on to New Jersey.

A train tunnel covering that span would allow the first direct access to the Wall Street area for the residents of Long Island and New Jersey.

Today, there is no direct, single-seat method of getting to Wall Street from Long Island, CT or NJ by train.

You wrote:

"And I'd rather not have the bulk of the deliveries at night."

Why not? It's pretty dead around there in the middle of the night. I've walked it enough to know. In fact, in the wee hours of the morning, you could walk in the street without much danger of getting hit. Surprisingly, there's not much traffic. Moreover, once the perimeter properties are vacated, few people will live close enough to hear the late-night deliveries.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 3:36 PM

'straight up railroad style setup'? huh?
Looks pretty darned good to me.
Don't expect will sell for much under under this price. It is 3600 sq ft..tending on larger size for most houses.
PS - this is more than .5 mile from arena site.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 3:46 PM

Anonymous 2:34 PM. I think the impact statement indicated the arena would be utlized 250 days a year. That's roughly 5 days a week.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 4:09 PM

I just drove down Pacific and it was the usual afternoon bottleneck created by everyone trying to escape through the side streets. AY will only make it worse. Don't tell my Mom I was driving again, ok?

Posted by: timmy, age 8 at March 8, 2007 4:13 PM

32 posts on a 2 million dollar house, i had to come in and take a look.

ahhh, now it makes sense, atlantic yards drama.

Posted by: no sleep till at March 8, 2007 4:21 PM

"And I'd rather not have the bulk of the deliveries at night."

Oh, because I live a block and a half away and enjoy sleeping.

And I realize the LIRR isn't going anywhere, but the yard tracks will be gone and I don't see how materials can be practically moved from the trains to the construction site.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 4:21 PM

Can someone more knowledgable then me confirm this: I thought that the yards would remain to some extent, and that the new structure would be on top of the yards. My understanding was that a big part of the "cost reduction" to the developer was due to the fact that they are not just building on the ground here, but have to create a huge platform that can carry the buildings. This has a significant cost implication.

Posted by: ameraleed at March 8, 2007 6:23 PM

The real congestion will be created by the 10,000 new residents that are being added to the neighborhood. And if the rule holds true that everyone who lives in Brooklyn owns a car, then that equals 10,000 new cars looking to 'live' on free parking in the neighborhood.

Posted by: Happy at March 8, 2007 6:40 PM

Jesus Christ! More pathetic scare tactics?!?! Can't you guys give it a rest?

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 7:27 PM

People this is New York City. If you get into a car during rush hour there will be traffic. Curse at the guy in the SUV all you want for not getting out of your way, it won't change. It is the price you pay to not have to eat at olive garden, be happy no one is shoving all the crappy breadsticks they can make down your throat.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 7:34 PM

Brownstoner, stop schilling for DDDB. You're becoming DG's little beyeatch. You've allowed the NIMBY crazies to take over this website and use it as their personal/exclusive platform to proliferate lies and spread unfounded fears in the community. Every single thread turns into some tirade against Ratner or AY. I'm so sick and tired of it all.

For better or worse AY is going to be built. If our beloved Brooklyn is going to turn into shit in a hole then simply LEAVE! I'm sick and tired of your bellyaching and constant whining. Posting bullshit on this blog does nothing to help your cause. It just pisses off us moderates and further isolates you from the majority.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 7:35 PM

The anti-AY folks are so red in the face with fury...It just comes across in these posts so clearly. And what a bunch of crap. I say again: Manhattan is just across the river...It's managed to absorb its density and entertainment venues pretty well. It's time for Brooklyn to grow up, too -- literally and figuratively. You spoiled brats who don't want things to change now that you're here should remember the place was different before you arrived. (Yes, it's true; Brooklyn actually had a history before you came on the scene.) It was fine for you to yuppifie the place, now you want the rules to change. Sorry. You lose.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 9:14 PM

Thank god there is a "fury" or overall disgust for the blatant political corruption that this development has benfited from. You are paid for, or blind if you don't cringe at the thievery. The polticos should be ashamed.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 9:42 PM

brooklyn doesn't seem as desirable as it did 5 years ago...from what i can see, it's becoming a mess. AY, the architecturally nauseating buildings, the big box stores, proximity to public housing....yummy. i'm glad i got out of the borough (although i did love the heights) before the apocalypse.

Posted by: adriennui at March 8, 2007 9:58 PM

I agree with anonymous 7:35 and 9:14. Everything with AY is goin to turn out just fine. Also tired with all these naysayers about Bush and Irag. That part of the world's neighborhood too will be calm and democratized before you know it. We can trust those in charge to make really good decisions about things for us. They're not influenced by slef-interest or money.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 10:01 PM

This whole conversation is exhausting me. Ratnerville sucks, and everyone with half an ounce of a brain knows it. Case closed.
Meanwhile, the house on Pacific is great, and will probably go for asking. Two just sold down the block in same range, both within a week's time.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 8, 2007 10:46 PM

We should've let Ratner rebuild Iraq. Instead of effing up our home, he could've used a few hundred mil to put up a few Gehry buildings over there.

At least the job would've got done.

Posted by: John at March 8, 2007 11:04 PM

The controversy over Atlantic Yards falls far short of battles and corruption that surrounded the building of the Brooklyn Bridge. Yet no one will advocate its removal or claim its construction was a bad idea.

The AY project is just another big NYC project suffering the usual slings and arrows of naysayers who appear every time. Should we tear down Lincoln Center and give it back to the Sharks and the Jets? Should we replace the UN with the slums that occupied that site previously? What about the World Trade Center site? It was a decaying area when it was chosen for the setting for the towers.

Posted by: stockholder_revolt at March 9, 2007 12:03 AM

Actually, a large portion of the WTC site was a gardening center...

Posted by: Anonymous at March 9, 2007 6:45 AM

I don't think any of these comparisons like WTC or Battery Park, apply. Manhattan is Manhattan is Manhattan. Truth is it's all speculation how AY will impact Brooklyn. AY has just as much a chance of failing as it does succeeding. The speculation was supposed to be based on facts and stats, but we weren't allowed to bring those stats in studies into the discussion. That's the part that's disturbing. If AY does succeed it will be purely by chance. Ratner and the city wouldn't be able to take credit for it, frankly. As for game attendees driving vs. taking public transportation, gimme a break, those people are addicted to their cars. You'll only get their car keys from them out of their cold dead hands. Even the residents of Central and outer Brooklyn drive everywhere. To work every day in the city, to shop, to dinner, everywhere.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 9, 2007 10:22 AM

Anonymous at March 9, 2007 10:22 AM, you wrote:

"Truth is it's all speculation how AY will impact Brooklyn."

Has any large project in NYC failed catastrophically? Has any piece of land lost value permanently as a result of what has been built upon it?

You added:

"AY has just as much a chance of failing as it does succeeding."

Yeah. Sure. You can argue about Ratner's ultimate exposure to the success or lack of success of this project, but he's got a lot of skin in the game. If internal projects put success at 50-50, this project would never have been pursued.

You opined:

"The speculation was supposed to be based on facts and stats, but we weren't allowed to bring those stats in studies into the discussion."

What "facts" and "stats" were those? From the mid-60s to the early 1990s the city was slipping and sliding. Perhaps the tipping point may have been passed in 1977. And the peak of crime may have passed in 1992.

Over the last 40 years NYC has had quite a ride. How will the next 40 differ? One way to make it better is to increase the number of tax-payers and reduce the number of tax-consumers.

In other words, build more housing for people who can pay their bills instead of building more housing for people who can't.

Which alternative is more attractive? A sports stadium like AY, or the housing project that replaced Ebbet's Field?

Posted by: stockholder revolt at March 9, 2007 11:02 AM

Mr. B,
If you have somehow managed to read this far down a thread, I would like to make a modest proposal. Is it possible to set up a separate sidebar discussion on AY so that those on both sides who look for every opportunity to debate AY's merits and drawbacks on this site can just have at it ad infinitum. That way, if you post a story on a nearby house, the first person who sees fit to mention that the house is near AY, you can just insert a link to the AY sidebar discussion, and there will be no need to replay the debate on every thread relating to a nearby house.

And, hey, you AY debaters, pro and con, do you really think that you are going to have any influence at all on teh matter 30-50 posts down from the top of a thread about a townhouse? Tone it down here and get some perspective, willya!

Posted by: Anonymous at March 9, 2007 11:24 AM

how can you not talk about AY when talking about a house - isn't the biggest real estate mantra "location, location, location"

Posted by: anon at March 9, 2007 11:47 AM

Yes, location, location et al. is a mantra we all know and love. Here, however, all that is needed is for one person to mention how close (in blocks, mileage, etc.) the house is to AY and everyone can get the picture. We don't need to have the same 50-post debate (with lots of unnecessary invective, no less) about the whole project every time. Everyone who reads Brownstoner regularly knows what AY is, and has their own views about it and presumably what that will mean for any particular property. Nothing new comes of rehashing it all again just to inform a discussion of a single house. I just don't want to wade through a huge pissing match every time just to get a few choice insights about the house.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 9, 2007 12:04 PM

all downtown bk changed when yuppie, dog-runcentric, $10 arrabica people like you guys arrived. escape manhattan? nah, it just followed you here a decade later. now you are bitching b/c others want in? where was the concern about change when you priced out the puerto ricans? cars looking for parking? OH MY GOD, THE WORLD IS TRULY ENDING............

Posted by: born on smith when it was italian and latin at March 9, 2007 1:35 PM

Um sorry to break this news to you 1:35 but the italians really didnt want to live near you.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 9, 2007 5:09 PM

Sorry to drag this out! But I had to respond.

11:02 wrote:

"Has any large project in NYC failed catastrophically? Has any piece of land lost value permanently as a result of what has been built upon it?"

First of all, the value being lost permanently is not the problem. The value being lost for even 20 years is a problem. As for any big failures in NYC, well yeah, Ratner's Atlantic Center development failed catastrophically. I would call it catastrophic failure, because it's an unpleasant shopping experience most of Brooklyn (except Central Brooklyn) choose to avoid, it has failed to rent out all the commercial space, and it's such a blight Ratner is already planning on tearing it down and replacing it at some point.

As for referring to all of "NYC" instead of Brooklyn, again I'll say Manhattan is Manhattan. AY is a situation where a certain type of development is getting thrust into a borough where no such development exists anywhere in the entire borough. There have been no other developments like that in the history of Manhattan. When they built WTC, it's not like it was the only skyscraper in all of Manhattan. When they built Battery Park, it was not the only complex of parks and buildings like that in Manhattan. There are simply no comparisons to AY in NYC. It doesn't mean it's doomed to failure, but there are no guarantees it will succeed either.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 10, 2007 12:49 PM

12:49 PM.

OMG, you anti-develpment people are really sick in the head! This is NYC and hipster/radicals/NIMBY snobs are not going to stifle the growth and development of NYC. No borough in the city is immune. In fifty years, both Brooklyn and Queens (and to a lesser extent the Bronx) will look very much like Manhattan. And guess what? Bitching and moaning about NYC development on a small time local blogsite is not going to get you any where either. Brooklyn has a fuck'n population of 2.5 million but for some insane reason you lunatics think that pontificating about your position on AY really matters to the vast majority of Brooklynites from Bensonhurst, Coney Island, East New York, Brownsville, Flatbush, Canarsie, Sheepshead Bay, etc.

Get a grip assholes! Brownstoner's daily readership is lucky enough to be in the one hundreds but you dopes think that posting for days and days about AY really matters to the rank and file. WTF?

DDDB is broke and general community apathy towards AY exist for a fuck'n good reason; no matter the drawbacks, Brooklyn wants a professional basketball team (hockey too) and massive commercial and luxury housing development downtown. Yes, we have an inferiority complex and massive ego to match! There you have it. Now give it up!!

Posted by: Anonymous at March 10, 2007 6:43 PM

Anonymous at March 10, 2007 12:49 PM, you responded:

"As for any big failures in NYC, well yeah, Ratner's Atlantic Center development failed catastrophically."

It's operating.

Which was followed by:

"I would call it catastrophic failure, because it's an unpleasant shopping experience most of Brooklyn (except Central Brooklyn) choose to avoid, it has failed to rent out all the commercial space, and it's such a blight Ratner is already planning on tearing it down and replacing it at some point."

There you go. It was a "starter mall." And I agree it will see the wrecking ball as soon as a supermarket moves into the new AY facility. But as half-baked as that mall is, it shows people will shop at that location. Meanwhile, the Atlantic Terminal seems to be booming.

I'm not sure about the best use of the land under the Atlantic Center Mall, but we'll hear some ideas pretty soon. Perhaps parking.

You claimed:

"AY is a situation where a certain type of development is getting thrust into a borough where no such development exists anywhere in the entire borough. There have been no other developments like that in the history of Manhattan."

No? What about the Brooklyn Bridge? Perhaps Central Park? The Holland Tunnel?

You went on:

"There are simply no comparisons to AY in NYC."

So what?

You closed:

"It doesn't mean it's doomed to failure, but there are no guarantees it will succeed either."

No one has made either claim. But the completion of the project will add permanent value to AY's 22 acres.

Posted by: rentar at March 10, 2007 11:00 PM

Jeezus, guys, I'm not even saying AY is doomed to fail. I've specifically said that. All I've said is this, in attempt to simplify it for you, the successes of controversial developments in Manhattan over the last few decades are not entirely applicable comparisons to Brooklyn and AY.

That's it.

And you disagree. That's fine. But it's possible to get into a debate without name-calling. Why get so nasty? Seriously, name one reason for name-calling and nastiness on a public forum. Does it improve society? No. Does it help the debate over AY? No. Does it make you a better person? Hardly. I hate this kind of thing. Nasty people on the internet are total utter losers.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 11, 2007 10:02 AM

10:02 here. Oops I name-called! What's a more civil term for "loser"? Maybe I'd say this instead: nasty people on the internet are irresponsible and rude.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 11, 2007 10:08 AM

Listen here and listen real good....

STFU!!!!!

Posted by: Anonymous at March 12, 2007 4:57 AM

the pro ay crowd is so unruly can you imagine opening day? as soon as you speak aginst them they resort to name calling.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 12, 2007 3:05 PM

Exactly, 3:05pm. The dregs of society support AY and the stadium. That alone should be telling us something.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 12, 2007 4:34 PM