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March 1, 2007
House of the Day: 322 Park Place
As great a block as this house is on and as impressive a facade it has, the asking price of $2.2 million seems like quite a stretch for this side of Flatbush Avenue. The same family has owned the house since at least the early '80s, and besides the strange addition of new granite tiles for the wall of the entry foyer, has done little work as far as we can tell. On top of that, while most of the original details are intact, they don't strike us as being quite as impressive as we'd expect. To be fair, it could be how they're photographed (subpar for a Corco listing). Anyway, in case it sounds like we're being overly negative and nit-picky, it's only because the asking price begs scrutiny. If this had been put on the market at, say, $1.7 million, we'd have a strikingly different reaction. The price is particularly rich for a family that wants to use this as a one- or two-family, as converting from a four-family won't be cheap.
322 Park Place [Corcoran] GMAP P*Shark
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I happened to find another Park Side town house for $1,599,000 by yesterdays house of the day.
http://www.slopebrownstone.com/images/385%20Parkside.jpg
Beautiful...but were those houses asking under 1M before this Winter?? The neighbor/street has improved? Love to know, if any.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 12:22 PM
The realtors are downplaying the expense, drama and labor of converting a 4-family back to 2-family. And updating mechanicals and all. But it's great how many photos they show. Finally a realtor "gets it"! Because it's the great details in the photos that makes you want to go look at the house. There's a charm and warmth to the place the photos are able to convey.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 12:32 PM
12:22, Todays discussion is about a house on Park Place, not Parkside. Different nabe.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 12:32 PM
Amen to the comment about drama of conversion . . . especially considering the high-end price.
The taxes alone would choke many of us!
To buy this place, you'd have to definitely be thinking about living in one of the units and renting out the other three for a while.
Not a bad idea - IF you've got the dough now, don't need a lot of space now and want to give yourself the chance to spread your wings in the future.
Otherwise just keep looking for a place that's configured right -- or a lower price tag.
Posted by: tripster at March 1, 2007 12:38 PM
i love that bench they have built into the "portico" (is that the word to describe the butt-out of the front windows?"). i have the same thing in my house and would like to have someone build a similar bench.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 12:47 PM
its a bay window
Posted by: apk at March 1, 2007 12:53 PM
2 million? Noice!
Not too shabby for Prosepect Heights I'll be rooting for it.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 1:04 PM
One thing that's good about it is that since it's an "even" address, I think that means the garden faces away from AY so it'll still get sunlight. I don't see why someone who wants to convert it to a one or two family would buy this. There were four-families in the nabe going for 1.6 last year. Much depends on the width --no floorplan here. It's certainly aggressive pricing, given the drama that the construction near it will create.
Posted by: west at March 1, 2007 1:20 PM
Prospect Heights Rocks! But 2 Million for that house seems off....Maybe $1.7-1.8M because of the location (prime!) but not for the interior (two thumbs down).
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 1:22 PM
"The price is particularly rich for a family that wants to use this as a one- or two-family, as converting from a four-family won't be cheap".
Did it ever occur to you that some people might a multi family house for living and for income and not everyone is a conspicuous a consumer and needs an entire four building to house just one or two families.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 1:38 PM
looking past the owner's personal touches... all the details seem to be intact.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 1:40 PM
west,
goes to show that some people are fixated on AY and most of the time don't know what you're talking about.
First too far from AY and South of AY to even remotely consider 'shadow'. You forget we are in northern hemisphere.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 1:51 PM
West, this building is four blocks south and one block west of the nearest corner of the proposed AY development. Shadows will not affect it. The only problem is the family who routinely hangs out on the corner of Washington during the summertime and plays their car stereo loud enough to be heard in Canarsie.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 2:10 PM
Honestly it's not his fault and the rest of supporters of AY.
The propaganda machine has painted a “blight” picture of Prospect Heights.
the neighbor hood is huge and is booming.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 2:19 PM
(If the photo's correct -- and where's the plan?!) the alley on the side is intriguing as it could allow for lot line windows to get light to the interior.
I'm with the other posters, however--conversion even to a duplex over duplex would be a pretty penny, and out of line IMHO with this asking price.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 2:43 PM
The alley probably belongs to the building next door which is freestanding. It is a parking lot in back which makes the garden in the brownstone less than charming.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 3:44 PM
I question anyone who would pay that price to convert it back to a one family. theer are actually cheaper options in better neighborhoods (that is not to say that Prospect Heights is not a great neighborhood, just that one can buy a four family in a prime neighborhood for cheaper). The condition of the interior would not matter, because whoever bought it would be gutting it anyway.
Posted by: Questionable at March 1, 2007 4:39 PM
really? so where is this prime neighborhood with 4 family brownstones that are cheaper?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 4:46 PM
There are pleanty of four families throughour Cobble Hill and Carroll Gardens for 1.7 to 1.9 million. Within Park slope there are even a couple of four families from 1.8 to 2.2 million. My only point is if you are going to gut it, why pay that amount for that property when there are other more desirable properties (not on a personal level, but on an objective level). Further, there are many two and lower familes in Park Slope for less than $2 million.
Posted by: Queationable at March 1, 2007 5:09 PM
Anon 4:46 said "really? so where is this prime neighborhood with 4 family brownstones that are cheaper?"
Well, if there is a "prime" part of Prospect Heights, it'd probably be off either side of Carlton Ave, so this one (and anything close to Underhill, for that matter...) isn't exactly prime IMO.
As for your question, Park Slope itself (broadly much more prime than what's across Flatbush) still has plenty of houses of similar quality for well under the above one's $2.2MM listing price.
In fact, here's one in the North Slope that doesn't have the more expensive conversion that a 4 fam would entail, and it's listed for $1.595MM:
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=937123
Please tell me how the Park Place listing is somehow worth over $600K more than that.
Posted by: doh at March 1, 2007 5:12 PM
Why is Carroll Gardens a more desirable neighborhood than Prospect Heights?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 5:14 PM
PH lots are 131 feet deep--you won't find that in PS, CH or CG.......
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 5:23 PM
Anonymous 5:14p,
That's similar to asking why Cobble Hill is, too.
In fact, much of Carroll Gardens is exactly as nice, quaint and safe as Cobble Hill, and the whole Smith Street / Court Street restaurants thing is really nice to have.
So, I'm not quite sure why the answer to your question isn't plain as day.
Posted by: doh at March 1, 2007 5:24 PM
Anonymous 5:23, you also won't find that in Park Slope or even Brooklyn Heights either.
Guess it matters less value-wise than overall neighborhood charm and location.
Else why would neighborhoods currently be valued as such...
Posted by: doh at March 1, 2007 5:26 PM
Re doh's post - How can you say that the prime part of PH is near Carlton. That is exactly where the major effect of AY will be felt in PH, much closer to the project and the construction. In fact I heard Carlton will be widened and all the trees cut down- How desirable a PH house is in reverse coorelation to how far from AY it is.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 5:38 PM
Doh- Sorry dude it's not up to you to decide what "prime" prospect heights. I would say my block if it was up to me.
Can you please show me a home that's not directly across the street from PS 282? the home has to be similar design not a brick house, siding or old stable. And the killer a 5 min walk to Prospect park, Museum and Garden, etc……
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 5:42 PM
Fair question, Anonymous 5:38p.
Just going by the curb appeal of the streets right there at present, in addition to proximity of Flatbush Ave transportation/subways etc.
More charming blocks with greater access/convenience to subways are always priced higher to slightly less charming blocks and/or blocks that are further from the ever-critical commuter subways.
The various streets off either side of Carlton Ave seem to have the most charm and best proximity to transportation, that's all I was referring to.
Very unfortunate then, that these nicest current tree-lined blocks there may be made less attractive in the coming years, no doubt.
Posted by: doh at March 1, 2007 5:46 PM
doh, you're missing out big time.
Carlton ave is like a short cut to atlantic ave. A lot of "outsiders" just zip right thru. There's so much more to see if you want to see charm.
Stop by and visit.
no I'm not broker
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 5:56 PM
As someone who lives in PH, I can say this is one of the best blocks in the neighborhood. Brilliant location (close to shops on Vanderbilt, Q/B at 7th Ave, 2/3 at GAP, park, museum etc) + a lovely streetscape + a long-established block association. However, the house is clearly over-priced by $3-400k. If it was a two-family triplex over simplex with a top-of-the-line reno, I'd say maybe $1.9 - 2.0. As is, it's closer to 1.65 - 1.7. I think local comps will bear me out.
Posted by: NeoGrec at March 1, 2007 5:56 PM
OK, the last word - I live in PH and the prettiest brownstone blocks are as follows:
Prospect Place from Carlton thru to Underhill. Carlton to Vandy is one of the nicest.
Park Place - Vandy to Washington
Sterling Place - Vandy to Washington - the upper block is often overlooked and very nice.
Carlton and the houses near it are also nice but will be heavily impacted by AY during construction and afterward. The other blocks will be affected more by traffic, air pollution, parking problems.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 5:58 PM
Anonymous 5:42p, you are right, it's not up to me.
I am just giving my perspective as someone currently looking to buy in the neighborhood. I have spent a good amount of time investigating all blocks from Washington Ave to Flatbush, from Pacific to EP, and I am just relating how the neighborhood appears to an impartial outside observer (with no pre-existing "must-be-my-block" favorites).
Park Place between Vanderbilt and Underhill certainly is fine in my opinion, just a bit less desireable and convenient than what I've seen just off the lower part of Carlton Ave (or on lower Carlton Ave itself).
Again, this is just the opinion of an impartial observer determining favorite areas based on the usual specs (properties themselves and location, location, location...)
But based on that, I do find Park Place, Prospect Place and St Marks (and perhaps some of Sterling Place just below that) between Flatbush and Vanderbilt to anything else in the area.
North of Bergen = too close to AY for me, so not prime for reasons of the long-term construction mess that will very soon be present.
East of Vanderbilt = sure, nice streets...but anyone would clearly pay more for something closer to Flatbush Ave subways and slightly nicer curb appeal streets as described above. So, not exactly prime, but still fine.
Posted by: doh at March 1, 2007 6:01 PM
Heh, in the forever amount of time it took me to post my 6:01p post, I see several recommendations for specific other blocks to consider, and an interesting insider's tip about Carlton Ave.
Much appreciated, I will factor these into my next visit.
thx
Posted by: doh at March 1, 2007 6:04 PM
Some of you pundits need to get a geography lesson! Park between Vanderbilt and Underhill (the block in question) is 1.5 blocks from the Q/B (at Park & Carlton) and 2.5 blocks to the 2/3 at Grand Army Plaza.
Posted by: NeoGrec at March 1, 2007 6:12 PM
Doh- I will extend the olive branch in peace and wish you good luck in your search. I’m also glad you're interested in PH.
I hope you find one quickly in your price range and after you sign & seal the deal, you'll be rooting like me for more 2 million dollar sales like our neighbors a stone throw away in PS.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 6:12 PM
To be clear, I am not saying that Prospect Heights is not a great neighborhood.
But you are naive if you think that on average if you asked people whether Prospect Heights was in the same class as Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens or Park Slope that they would yes even 40% of the time.
further, if you did a poll, where people would want to live Most would choose Park Slope, Carroll Gardens and Cobble Hill over Prospect Heights.
This might be, because many people are unaware of the great attributes of Prospect Heights, or because some people are snobs, or maybe even because some people are ignorant and base it on race. Nonetheless, on average, people would not put Prospect Heights in the same category as the others that is my only point.
for the record, I think they are wrong, but the average is who influences the price of real estate not the extremes. Otherwise, the many brokers on here would be very happy, or the many disgruntled renters.
Posted by: questionable at March 1, 2007 6:14 PM
Anon. 1:38pm said "Did it ever occur to you that some people might a multi family house for living and for income and not everyone is a conspicuous a consumer and needs an entire four building to house just one or two families"
Who in the world would buy this and only live on one floor? According to the listing, the entire rental property income is $90,000/year. So if you live in one apartment, you are lucky to have the other rentals covering 1 million of your mortgage. So you're paying 1.2 million for your small apartment. Who would find such a deal appealing?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 6:32 PM
It's one of the top blocks in the area; people walk on the block.
As for the price, 327 Park Place, (only 3 stories; 1200 less sqft) sold for 1.6M in the past year, 311 Park Place sold for 1.9M the numbers are high, but not so crazy.
It's on the same street as the entrance to the Q/B Park Place across Vandy, near all good stuff.
I for one think this area will benefit from AY, and the Richard Meyer Building, 2M+ condos, and they're selling them!? crazy world we live in but it's seems a little crazy PH sells at such a discount to PS, considering proximity to Park and trains...
interesting discussion, though
Posted by: Anonymous at March 1, 2007 11:19 PM
I know I'm entering this conversation a day late, but 2 things:
6:14pm, I would prefer to live in PH rather than PS, CH or CG.
6:32pm, I own a 4 story brownstone and my apartment is only 1 floor. I bought this house as an investment, but the apartment is my pied a terre because I no longer live Brooklyn.
Perhaps I'm part of a small percentage, but just because YOU have a certain opinion doesn't mean others feel the same.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 2, 2007 8:37 AM
my neighborhood is better than your neighborhood.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 2, 2007 9:35 AM
Just so it is clear,
Apparently, ranking neighborhoods in Brooklyn based on real estate value. the new list is
1. Brooklyn heights
2. Prospect heights
3. Park slope
4. Cobble Hill/Fort Greene
5. Carroll Gardens/Clinton Hill
Or should we put Prospect Heights as number one. The original discussion evolved around the asking price for the apartment, not whether or not Prospect Heights is a great place to live. So based on the arguments for Prospect Heights made earlier. No one should ever pay more for a similar house in Park Slope or Carroll Gardens or Cobble Hill or Fort Greene. The only houses that are comparable and that might not vene be acceptable is Brooklyn Heights.
HAVE YOU ALL LOST YOUR MINDS?
Posted by: To Clarify at March 2, 2007 9:54 AM
Anonymous 8:37 am says --
I own a 4 story brownstone and my apartment is only 1 floor. I bought this house as an investment
If you bought a 4-story brownstone in any neighborhood, and paid 2.2 million dollars for it, please explain how the rental income justifies your investment, I suspect you bought years ago. We bought our 4-story brownstone nearly 6 years ago, and the income from the rental apartments cover nearly all the mortgage. Now, that same brownstone needs at least an additional million dollars to purchase (really), and the rental income has barely increased. Please tell me how this is a good investment. I truly want to know, because we've been looking for another brownstone to purchase as a rental property, and there's nothing out there that seems like much of an investment (unless you put 1 million dollars down, so your mortgage is "only" another million.)
Thanks.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 2, 2007 10:21 AM
Wow, this thread, and the property is getting close to home (literally) as I am a very nearby neighbor. I'm rooting for their sale at whatever price - because it clearly indicates the seller want to leave, and the eventual buyer wishes to be there in this neighborhood, and on this block. So I'll be early with the welcome wagon basket (Yup they do that on this block via the block assoc - so that's a big plus!). As for neighborhood desirability and block desirability - I'll say this area and block has alot going for it - witness the price appreciation cited earlier. Is the value there for this asking price - well I'll stifle my opinion, but I'll say that's what makes markets. There will bea clearing price, and I won't be the agent in either leg of that trade (since I own already and am not looking for more). But would I tell a friend to seriously consider it if they 1) had the $$ to consider this price range - yes, 2) had the housing need for this type of configuration (i.e. single or couple) - yes, and 3) if they did not check it out, then I would also caution them that it's unlikely that this will be there after 3months. And to Bstoner's original comment that converting down from 4 to 3 or to 2 units - that could be done easily, and over time, so the reintegration of the units into an integrated 1 family would not be all that painful. But that's just my thoughts on the matter.
Posted by: wingo at March 2, 2007 10:27 AM
Please tell me that "To Clarify" at 9:54am is just kidding around.
Hah, that list is the best laugh I've had all week.
+10 points for wishful thinking, and a fantastic departure from reality.
Posted by: lol at March 2, 2007 10:57 AM
Sure 10:21, I'd love to help out!! :) Firstly, let me clarify. I never said I spent $2.2 on my own brownstone. I see where you would be confused. The original brownstone in question here is $2.2, but I spent about $700k last year in Bed Stuy. I was simply responding to someone's question "Who would want to live on 1 floor?" I was just siting an example of someone who may buy a brownstone and take only 1 floor for themselves. Now, if you want me to go through all of my financials, I will, but I don't think I have to, now that you know what I paid. My tenants cover everything and I have a free apartment. No, it wouldn't be worth doing on a $2.2 house unless you HAD to be in a certain neighborhood. Alas clar?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 2, 2007 11:01 AM
But 11:01 why would you draw parallels to your situation in the first place? This entire thread is focused on a building that is listed for $2.2 million, and debating the logic of that. You took things out of context.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 2, 2007 11:16 AM
I have lived in both Prospect Heights and Carroll Gardens, so i think I have a fair assessment of both. Though I like PH., CG has proven, for me, to be much more desirable. There is no impending AY, the schools are better, less traffic and congestion, a more responsive police precinct and the smith/court shopping and eating options. Prospect heights is great, and has beautiful buildings, but doesnt hold a candle to the rest of the qualities of CG. Thats why I rented in PH, but when I bought, I picked CG
Posted by: chickenmadness at March 2, 2007 11:52 AM
And across the street from this property, someone stole all the tires off a car last night and left it on milk crates. Welcome to the neighborhood!
Posted by: Anonymous at March 2, 2007 12:05 PM
And across the street from this property, someone stole all the tires off a car last night and left it on milk crates. Welcome to the neighborhood!
Posted by: Anonymous at March 2, 2007 12:06 PM
Thank you, 11:01, for explaining your situation and answering my question. I was also the person who asked who would buy this and live on only one floor?
We also are happy to live in a small portion of our brownstone, because our tenants nearly cover our cost.
But what I was pointing out was that we wouldn't pay some $5,000/ month (with the rental income covering the other portion) to live in such a small apartment. But that is at least the cost to cover $800,000 in mortgage, with the 3 tenant apartments covering another million (if you are lucky).
Once you are talking about these kind of price tags, your real buyer isn't an "investor", but someone who has so much disposable income they want to spend 2+ million on their home, and getting a few extra thousand a month in rental income isn't necessary. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I've never met those people.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 2, 2007 12:20 PM
Prime PH has 4 subway top tier lines park, library, museum; is closer to 7th Avenue than most of PS and no public housing; also, Vandy is rapidly becoming the next 5th Ave, which long ago eclipsed Smith Street as a shopping/dining/drinking destination. CG has no good subway access, most of the nabe is a hike to the F and Gowanus and Wyckoff houses are walking distance. AY is a red herring, particularly for any block near GAP.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 2, 2007 1:09 PM
i also agree that while prospect heights is a great neighborhood with some nice aspects to it, if people privately were to rank where they would prefer to live (taking out the costs) that prospect heights would not be near the top 3. i looked to buy my first place in the fall and basically thought that in my price range, i would need to look at prospect heights and was quite happy about that, in fact.
as it turned out...looking at a few nice places on lincoln near washington and on sterling, park place, etc that once i happened upon a place in prime park slope, that it felt like a much better option for me. those streets still had a pretty seedy vibe to them. and to compare vanderbilt to 5th avenue is pretty ridiculous. come on now. 5th avenue 5 years ago, yes...but right now...not a chance. there's going to be no blue ribbon sushi on vanderbilt anytime soon.
prospect heights is great, but please try to be realistic here...MOST people would certainly prefer park slope, carroll gardens, cobble hill, etc.
Posted by: anonymous at March 2, 2007 3:25 PM
1:09p - Not getting into a turf war here, just pointing out inaccuracies.
Vandy eclipsing Smith Street?
In fact, Smith has ten times the number of original and interesting restaurants that Vandy has, shops too. Real restaurants and shops, not just former barrio hold-overs. Smith Street ditched those over 5 years ago. Vandy has just a sprinkling counted on one hand. It never exploded with great places like Smith..it's just had a trickle of this activity to-date. Not sure how you can be comparing these, as Smith Street is both much longer than Vanderbilt and also much more densely packed with great places, resulting in far greater variety and total number.
Subways? The F runs right through the middle of CG. Very fast conduit into town, love it. A hike? Have a look at the map. Its closer to most of CG than most of PH is to a subway.
Schools? Simply can't compare.
And crime? Let me put it this way: one area makes constant headlines, the other doesn't. No burning cars, prostitutes or drug dealers hanging out in CG.
I also like PH, but let's be honest with the facts here...it's more of an emerging neighborhood, at an earlier stage perhaps just ahead of Clinton Hill in many respects (particularly crime/drug, overall safety, restaurant/shopping choices). Some folks aren't deterred by this, but some are.
As for access to the park relative to CG, the whole western side of Prospect Park also has access that CG does not have, but I wouldn't exactly say that ranks that area any higher for that, given similar rough edges present. So that alone doesn't count for much.
Anyhow, I like all these places. Just asserting reality check where needed.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 2, 2007 4:42 PM
I live on Park Place and when you walk up Vanderbilt into Grand Army Plaza with its magnificent monuments it makes up for not having fabulous restaurants on Vanderbilt. The openness, the arch, with the Park beyond make you feel you are living in a very special place. Also remember you are close to the very nicest blocks in PS.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 2, 2007 6:49 PM
Come on kids, the neighborhood bragging rights thread is a bit of a waste of time. The question is whether this house is priced correctly for the market. I own in PH and love PH -- so have a vested interest in boosting the nabe's property values -- but I'm still gonna say that this house is at least $3-400 over market.
Posted by: NeoGrec at March 2, 2007 7:01 PM
I believe the info and pics at the link below provide a perfect current (today!) example of how PH differs from these other neighborhoods:
http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=33512
Posted by: Anonymous at March 2, 2007 11:31 PM
Anonymous 11:31p, was just browsing around the link above and also came across this item that happened last night:
http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=33525
Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2007 12:21 PM
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