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March 16, 2007
20 Grand Avenue: It Could Get Ugly
There's a classic artists-versus-landlord fight brewing at 20 Grand Avenue. For years, the 60,000-square-foot commercially-zoned warehouse has been inhabited by a mix of Pratt students and young creative types in a mutually beneficial don't-ask-don't-tell understanding with the landlord. (One couple had their loft profiled in the New York Times a couple of years ago). As the real estate market has picked up in the area, the tenants claim, the landlord has steadily tried to make the building less liveable (removing laundry facilities, not fixing the elevator in a timely manner, removing heating from common areas) in an effort to force them out; over the past year he has refused to renew leases, but allowed tenants to live on a month-by-month basis. Last week, they received the eviction letter below, in which the landlord formally, and probably not too wisely, recognized them as residential tenants.
Meanwhile, the owner has been trying to get the building's C of O changed to residential; since the change has not been forthcoming, he's resorted to trying to sell the units as commercial condos with the marketing pitch, "Own a Grand Home for Your Business." Wink, wink. The property is listed under "New Home Developments" on the Douglas Elliman site despite their status as commercial condos.
We're curious about what the market is for commercial condos. Does anyone know how 241 231 Norman Avenue fared? What's it like trying to get financing for something like this if you're just a small mom-and-pop business? GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
I was thinking of buying one of the commercial condos on Norman, and the financing was so difficult I finally gave up. I was looking for a real business (music studio) and would still like to be able to purchase a space like this at some point (ideally in Clinton Hill). That said, to buy commercial, you have to have more cash down and the interest rates are MUCH higher. Sometimes you can wiggle out of the more cash down part, but I found no real way to get around the interest rates which a year ago were 9 - 13% or thereabouts. There are businesses who would like to buy and not rent. I'm curious to hear how 241 Norman has done.
Posted by: Anon at March 16, 2007 8:50 AM
Is there a website for these condos?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 16, 2007 8:53 AM
i think that 241 norman link isn't working.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 16, 2007 8:56 AM
should be fixed now
Posted by: brownstoner at March 16, 2007 9:11 AM
It's actually 231 Norman and you can see at their website www.greenpointlofts.com that they haven't really sold much since I was looking at them in August. It's such a shame because it would be better if small businesses could own their space as opposed to shelling out high rents and then build equity for their businesses instead, but the interest rates and cash required make it so hard for new businesses.
Posted by: Anon at March 16, 2007 9:16 AM
can commercial condos be purchased for residential purposes? what are the advantages/disadvantages?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 16, 2007 3:47 PM
the prudential douglas elliman site says the the offering plan hasn't even been filed yet
Posted by: Anonymous at March 16, 2007 3:53 PM
If they are marketing these condos before their plan has been approved then Douglas Elliman and the owner of this site are in violation of regulations set up by the NYS AG's office and this could jeapordize their ability to get their plan approved. This is crazy of both Elliman and the owner because all it would take would be for a tenant/s to complain to the Attorney General's office. This stuff does indeed mess up things for developers. What fools. Or should I say, what greedy fools?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 16, 2007 6:50 PM
The owner of this building is Joe Torres of the Mets.
Posted by: babs at March 16, 2007 7:00 PM
Actually, no, Joe Torres is a developer of properties in Brooklyn. He's not the famous Mets manager. Ha ha.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 17, 2007 12:07 PM
Jeez, this is New York right? It's Joe Torre, and he manages the Yankees, not the Mets!
Posted by: Anonymous at March 18, 2007 4:00 PM
As far as artist studio spaces go, 20 Grand is a pretty tough deal to beat at about $1.10/sq ft, private bathroom and T1 access. So as long as you don't want to poop where you eat...
Posted by: Anonymous at March 18, 2007 4:06 PM
It wont be a good deal for long. I have a friend in that building. I was thinking about getting into a space over there and then my friend showed me the blog of their tenants union. It's already ugly. Looks like the hammar's gonna come down on commercial tenants in about a year. A year lease is all anyone's getting and pay careful attention to the plans of the developer. Read his letter for yourself. http://20grandalliance.blogspot.com/
Posted by: Anonymous at March 18, 2007 4:43 PM
Forgot to ask, anybody know what other buildings this dude owns around town? Maybe he's got cheap space in some building that isn't about to become a developer's wet dream? I'm looking in the $1-1.50/sq ft range.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 18, 2007 4:48 PM
He mostly has overpriced residential loft buildings in Greenpoint, all the way on Box St -- you need to take a bus there after you get off the G at Greenpoint Ave. Nice views of the Pulaski Bridge. That Mets comment was a joke - glad some people got it.
Posted by: babs at March 18, 2007 6:51 PM
also has a bldng on jay st in dumbo
Posted by: Anonymous at March 18, 2007 9:02 PM
Small world. Was just having dinner with some artist friends. One was talking about the bad condition of his building and the other said, “oh, man, have we got you beat. We have the landlord from hell.” Turns out it’s the same guy Joe Torres. Guess he’s a main offender in the bohemian/art scene. Long story short the tenants of 25 Jay have been fighting him for almost a decade. Can’t remember the address of the other building on Richardson St. Just remember them saying it’s hard to Google him cause of the famous Yankee. Different pronunciation, same spelling.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2007 9:17 AM
So, it's 20 Grand, 25 Jay and 47 Thames St. and something on richardson st? The tenants in all these buildings should get together.
All have the same situation. Torres/Finkelstein no longer want the current "live /work" tenants in the building and are illegally pressuring people to leave and when that doesn't work they try to evict them.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 6, 2007 12:06 AM
No matter what business you wanna start with Joe Torres- be extremely careful. He is a thief. He was our landlord in Greenpoint (sutton street). A nightmare....
Posted by: anonymous at April 19, 2007 8:11 PM
The 231 Norman project is co-owned by a radical righty that thinks Muslims are out to impose Sharia on us, etc.
I've always thought the building itself was pretty ugly, myself.
Posted by: jpe at April 21, 2007 9:50 AM
Joe blocked the building dept. from entering 233 Norman while he defied a stop work order - he literally had men blocking the doors and elevators for a week.
Posted by: anonymous at June 11, 2007 5:32 PM
Just spent 6 mos. "negotiating" with that thief Joe Torres. He is a crook, a thug, and NOT a businessman.
Quite possibly the shadiest guy I have ever met...
Posted by: anonymous at July 24, 2007 10:07 PM
Just spent 6 mos. "negotiating" with that thief Joe Torres. He's a crook, a thug, and probably couldn't even spell "businessman" Quite possibly the shadiest guy I have ever met... STAY AWAY!
Posted by: anonymous at July 24, 2007 10:12 PM
231 Norman Avenue aka greenpointlofts has sold over 40% of their units. They have a new bank that offered us 6.5% interest rate, with 25% down. The problem with financing comes when you can't put down more than 10%. The building is finished and provides individual bathrooms, gas, electric and nice size spaces. Definitely not work/live.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 4:22 PM
all the bad artists & cry babies are now gone, the building is now 100% commerical. nice place to work & cheep!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: guest at October 27, 2007 11:57 AM
Does anyone know the expected time frame for filing the offering plan, closing etc? I'm trying to find a space (approx 1000 sq ft or so) that has an easy commute to Manhattan and is safe. Any ideas? I'd like to purchase, but I'm open to ideas. Thanks!
Posted by: guest at December 1, 2007 5:11 PM
My name is Joey Torres, I used to work at the Mets team store on E54th before I got fired for stealing.
I lived down in Coney Island for years, got mugged a couple of times, once at gun point but I soon lost my home because of the development going on down there. It probably would've helped if I had liked to work, so I had to move in with my crazy God fearing holy roller girlfriend who lives in the Bronx. It sucks, she screams at me all the time and embarrasses me in public, but I don't want to work, and I don't want to live in a shelter, so I have to take it.
I am essentially a bum who doesn't like confrontation, I lie, cheat and steal, I am Joey Torres.
Hi everyone.
I am also gay, but my girl doesn't know it.
Posted by: guest at April 23, 2008 1:17 PM
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