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February 20, 2007
Wrecking Ball Gets Rolling on Atlantic Yards
Forest City Ratner is expected to break ground on the Atlantic Yards project today with the demolition of an old bus depot at the eastern end of the the rail yards; this will create a temporary area to store the LIRR trains that are now at the western end. Later this week, FCR is also planning to start demo on the former auto repair shop (above) at 179 Flatbush Avenue to make way for the base of Miss Brooklyn, should the project clear the remaining legal hurdles. Opponents are calling this week's work "premature" in light of the eminent domain lawsuit.
Developer Gets Ball Rolling on Nets arena [NY Daily News]
Brooklyn Arena Tip-Off [NY Post]
Photo by Gregg Snodgrass for Property Shark
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Comments
This is a smart decision, as construction will be well underway by the time the lawsuits are dismissed. It'll be exciting to see the project as if unfolds. For months I've been walking past the new hockey arena in Newark and it's cool to watch it slowly take shape.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 20, 2007 9:13 AM
If you listen carefully, you'll hear a flushing sound. That's the sound of all our property values going down the toilet.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 20, 2007 9:23 AM
affect on property values will be interesting. i'm a future brooklyn buyer who is no longer be interested in living near the yards site, but perhaps many new classes of buyers will rush in to be near a stadium (i personally doubt it) and the "manhattanized" brooklyn. the influx of housing stock in one area suggests supply could overpower demand, but populations continue to rise, so who knows.
Posted by: anon at February 20, 2007 9:59 AM
Go to MSG on a night there is a game and look at the people there and then think about them on residential streets, trying to park, going to fast food restaurants that cater to them, and that is the future of our brownstone neighborhoods. Commercial property that can be sold for TGIF's or Sports Bars will rise in value, as for local residents - it seems like the degradation of a neighborhood.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 20, 2007 10:08 AM
D-U-M-B-D-E-A-L!!!
Posted by: TT at February 20, 2007 10:23 AM
i can sum it up in one sentence:
"fuck you, marty markowitz."
Posted by: anon at February 20, 2007 10:29 AM
Just look at the businesses that have come into the Target mall if you want a glimpse of the area's retail future.
Posted by: west at February 20, 2007 10:32 AM
ANON 10:08, think of the crowd and the neighborhood after a concert. I remember what an asshole I used to be as a youngster all liquored up leaving a show. PS, I'm now a respectable memeber of society ;)
Posted by: Anonymous at February 20, 2007 10:35 AM
The neighborhoods around AY are all protected by zoning and/or landmark status. And the exposure of a world class facility and NBA team in Brooklyn will more then off-set the negatives of more traffic and congestion.
As for property values while I doubt they will fall as a result of the project - you opponents talk out of both sides of your mouth.
1 side - AY will end up being all luxury housing (Ratner will renege on affordable component) - it will contribute to complete homoginization and gentrification of Brooklyn. Brooklyn will be lost forever!
2nd side - Ay will destroy property values - no one will want to live near it, it will make the area seedy like MSG area. Brooklyn will be lost forever!
How about this - AY will add a much needed mass entertainment venue to Downtown Brooklyn, and an NBA franchise. IT will add jobs and shopping as well as congestion and traffic. It will add much needed housing and probably either lower housing costs or keep them from rising as fast as they otherwise would have and Brooklyn will keep on as it has- growing and changing - for the last 200yrs
Posted by: David at February 20, 2007 10:39 AM
I agree that Yards opponents have been playing both sides of the coin for years. Depending on the day, this project will be "instant gentrification" or turn the area into a hellhole. This is the behavior of people who know they have been defeated. Since they are powerless to stop it, all they can do is hope that it will fail.
I think it will increase property values, as the incoming generations will find the Times Square atmosphere to be exciting. And it's much better than a big hole in the ground.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 20, 2007 10:50 AM
When people look back on this in 10-15 years they'll see that the AY development was a diseaster for Brooklyn and that the developer's promises were a pipe dream
Posted by: Anonymous at February 20, 2007 11:01 AM
it's ok, park slope has more than enough roving gangs of rabid stroller moms who will be happy to ram the drunk stadium-goers in the knees with their oversized SUV strollers if they happen to stray too far into the brownstone areas. we'll defend our hood, never you fear.
Posted by: sylvia at February 20, 2007 11:15 AM
I repeat: since they are powerless to stop it, all they can do is hope that it will fail. Anon 11:01 perfectly illustrates this point.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 20, 2007 11:17 AM
I currently live in a coop building in Historic Clinton Hill. When I heard about AY I started looking into buying a brownstone in Bed-Stuy. I have lived on Clinton Ave between Greene and Lafyatette now for 5+ years and have loved it! But I have seen an increase in traffic (cars and people) and it's beginning to feel like Manhattan. I think when AY gets built it will feel even more crowded and unless the City makes major plans for infrastructure changes, it will be a mess of bridge and tunnel traffic on the weekends. My hope is that this does not happen, but that if it does, it will push the more traditional Brooklyn experience into areas like Stuyvesant Heights (where I am moving) and drive out some of the riff-raff. Maybe I am dreaming (or having a nightmare) but I don't want to stick around here to find out. So off I go, onto a new adventure as a landlord and brownstone owner in Bed-Stuy. Wish me luck, I know there are those of you out there who believe I am going to need it!
Posted by: McdonnaPappa at February 20, 2007 11:25 AM
This new procedure for making posts really sucks. Some of us like to post anonymously. Why should there be a 'hold' on our posts and not on anyone else's? It makes me much less inclined to post and I suspect I'm not the only one.
I predict that AY will prove disastrous in the long run and that property values in surrounding areas will decline. But I hope I turn out to be wrong. Time will tell!
Posted by: Anonymous at February 20, 2007 11:33 AM
Because we'd rather not have links to human executions and comments about the feminine hygiene habits of regular readers posted. The only other alternative right now is requiring TypeKey registration, which we would like to avoid.
Posted by: brownstoner at February 20, 2007 11:40 AM
The AY project is very unique in the sense that an arena is being built in the midst of thriving neighborhoods...I'm not sure we have any other examples of this happening anywhere else in the USA...typically stadiums are built where no one previously wanted to go. Zoning will certainly protect the existing neighborhoods. The areas nearest the arena are, clearly, at risk; however, for less than desirable retail establishments. In the end, I think it will raise the profile of Brooklyn and reward those owners that have unique, protected real estate.
Posted by: Brownstone Dreamin at February 20, 2007 12:00 PM
Dreamin while I think your overall analysis is correct, I must object to the perpetuation of the myth that AY is being built in the "midst of a thriving neighborhood"
Actually AY is being built on the fringes of a few successful neighborhoods. If AY was built on 7th Ave and 3rd Street or Underhill and Park place or Fulton and Greene THEN you could say it was "in the midst" of a neighborhood. But the vast majority of the AY site is empty or grossly underutilized, and is blocks from the real "neighborhoods" you are concerned with - generally seperated by major throughfares like Atlantic Avenue, Flatbush Avenue and Washington Avenue
Posted by: David at February 20, 2007 12:26 PM
taking ebbetts field out of lefferts sure did wonders for the surrounding property values in that area!
Posted by: Anonymous at February 20, 2007 1:08 PM
David:
You are wrong about the AY site. Only 8 acres of the site are the rail yards. The rest is property either owned by Forest City Ratner or the private property of others that he is attempting to have conveyed to him by the State of New York. The properties within the proposed project site that are empty or underutilized are that way BECAUSE Ratner has been holding them vacant. If you walk through the project site area, you will see that in the vacant lots NOT held by Ratner, there is are condo buildings. This is why the "blight" argument for seizing private property and conveying it to Ratner is such a joke.
You are obviously unfamiliar with Propsect Heights since you seem to believe the site is "separated by major thoroughfares" from existing neighborhoods. The area between Flatbush, Atlantic and Washington IS a "real" neighborhood! Moreover, AY will hardly be on the "fringe" of gentrified neighborhoods. The arena is going to be right across the street from Park Slope.
Parts of Prospect Heights that border the rail yards is definitely due for development, development that hasn't taken place during the current Brooklyn building boom precisely because of the proposed Ratner superblock highrise arena complex. The question is what kind, and with what kind of public subsidy. Development over an active rail yard is likewise a perfect decent idea. The problem with the project has always been lack of transparency re: public subsidies, the circumvention of the usual NYC procedures for land use, and the use of eminent domain to convey private property from one individual to another under the guise of the public interest.
Posted by: SPer at February 20, 2007 1:20 PM
SPer, I suggest you read my post(s) more carefully - I did not say that AY was being built mostly on "vacant" land - I said it wasnt being built in the "midst of a neighborhood".
I am familiar with Prospect Heights which is why I said that AY was "GENERALLY" seperated from neighborhoods by major thoroughfares (Prosepct Heights being the lone exception)
It seems that your knowledge of the area must be very recent, since you make the silly assertion that the reason that the AY site is underutilized is b/c of Ratner, when that area (not including the railyards themselves) has been plaqued by vacancies, and underutilization for decades and has been the subject of redevelopment plans since at least the 60's (when the cost of building a platform over the railyards scared away Baruch College for one) and was described as blighted when Abe Stark was the boro president.
Posted by: David at February 20, 2007 3:30 PM
I am hoping for the best with this, (what else can we do at this point) but I am a little anxious about all of this, since I am close to the northeastern corner of this project. I have heard more than one person articulate McDonnaPoppa's comments about moving into BedSty to get away from this project's influence. We'll see. It will change things, that's for sure. For now, we'll have to deal with construction....
Posted by: donatella at February 20, 2007 3:33 PM
David,
There are new condos on Washington and Dean, and there is a new building going up I think on Dean between Carlton and Vanderbilt. Amazingly enough, Ratner didn't try to buy those very blighted Newswalk condos. You can't go more than a couple of blocks in Dumbo, all along 4th Ave as far as 20th St., throughout the South Slope, or even in Bed-Stuy without seeing a construction crane. Do you seriously believe that the vacant lots along Dean and Pacific would still be unbuilt in the absense of the Ratner project?
I said that the area has not been built on during the CURRENT Brooklyn building boom because Ratner is holding the properties in anticipation of building a highrise enclave. That part of this area was deemed blighted in the 1960s is irrelevant to my claim. And of course there would be no need to use eminent domain if there weren't viable businesses and homes within the footprint.
As I said above, I have no problem with building over railyards. Have at it. Just not with massive, undisclosed public subsidies, not by transferring valuable property to a single developer, not by circumventing existing land use processes in order to accomplish both subsidies and property transfers. I'd prefer government to set reasonable parameters for development (appropriate upzoning, affordable housing incentives) and then let the market take over. I would include in that having the City build a platform over the railyards and then inviting competitive bidding.
As it stands, the City has made an UNLIMITED commitment to pay the infrastructure costs for this boondoggle! And what are we getting in return? A park? No. A school? No. A project that knits together existing neighborhoods? No. A "transit-oriented" project? No. Even Marty Markowitz, a relentless AY booster, couldn't get the ESDC to address his traffic concerns. No to all of those -- instead, we are getting demapped streets, superblocks, and a new high rise district, well away from Downtown Brooklyn, that I believe most will come to regret.
As for the geography of the thing, I did read your post and you state that the site is mostly "blocks" from "real" neighborhoods. I think the residents of Carlton between Dean and Flatbush would say different! And you seem really not to understand where the area will be -- right across the street from Park Slope.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 20, 2007 4:32 PM
I think I accidentally posted anonymously -- the long post addressed to David above is mine.
Posted by: SPer at February 20, 2007 4:34 PM
A piece of the puzzle is still missing for me. Why has Marty Markowitz sold out to the big money? I thought he loved Brooklyn! What's in it for him? Really, can someone please clue me in.
Posted by: Smith Street Sherlock at February 21, 2007 11:21 AM
Uh, he actually believes that this will be a boost for Brooklyn. I know that might seem unthinkable, but it's actually what he believes.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2007 2:24 PM
have you all read the article on the guy who is doing the landscape architecture for this project? interesting read....
Posted by: anonymous at February 21, 2007 2:49 PM
And have you read the discussion of the New York Observer article on Olin? Go to atlanticyardsreport.com. Worth a read.
Posted by: SPer at February 21, 2007 6:42 PM
what do you guys think the property value of the mixed use buildings on bordering flatbush will do? or lets say vanderbilt? when all said and done???
Posted by: heynow at March 5, 2007 7:01 PM
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