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January 3, 2007
House of the Day: 202 15th Street
This ole South Slope woodframe is very cute and looks to have been lovingly maintained. It last changed hands back in August 2004 for $920,000 and is on the market for $1.2 million. We've got no idea if the current owner made any significant improvements but at $600 a foot, this has to be pushing the upper bounds for the area. That said, we all know the square foot metric isn't always the more useful when looking at smaller houses, where layout can play such a crucial role. What do the South Slopers think of this price?
202 15th Street [Corcoran] GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
Interesting post about privacy. I don't think there are any townhouses that are not back to back with the next block. The grid dictates that. There may be some horticultural introductions -- fast growing trees for instance, that may help provide some screening.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 12:37 PM
it doesn't seem too bad to me. price appreciation in the nabe was torrid for 2004 and 2005. nice place and, it seems to me, fairly priced.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 12:49 PM
Those prices were elevated because it represented the value of the land at at the old maximum FAR.
These crappy houses should be bulldozed. Look at how ridiculously tiny the living room is. It's like an apartment.
Yeah sure, someone is going to pay $1.2MM for an old house that requires tons of work, on a crime infested block surrounded by some of the ugliest houses in the entire country.
Good luck with that.
Posted by: Eryximachus at January 3, 2007 12:59 PM
crime infested block?
Posted by: alfonse at January 3, 2007 1:03 PM
I think this house is cute, but for that price (or less) I'd rather buy a townhouse in Stuyvesant Heights or Lefferts Manor or Bed Stuy on Greene or Gates Ave up to Nostrand. But I'm not necessarily looking for move-in condition, and this one looks pretty nicely restored already.
Posted by: babs at January 3, 2007 1:11 PM
They must be smokin' the wacky weed to think they can get that on that block.
Between 6-7 Aves, perhaps. Even though it's a cute house, for a frame on that block, they'll have to go down quite a bit...
Don't get me wrong, we know folks on the block, but $1.2M is way too high...but hey, you never know, right!?!
Posted by: lostinbrooklyn at January 3, 2007 1:11 PM
PS. Hey Eryximachus...
WAS a crime ridden block. MANY folks worked very hard over the past 5 years to get the dealers off the block. According to 'nabe stats at the 72nd PCT. crime in that entire area is way down.
Do some research before you open your mouth...
Posted by: lostinbrooklyn at January 3, 2007 1:13 PM
Can anyone shed some light on the crime situation along 4th ave between 10th and 20th or so? Seems like an area ripe for development with the R and Q lines - been through the area a bunch of times and it is full of kinda crappy stores (e.g. payday loans, tires) any idea of how safe the area is at night?
Posted by: south_slope_buyer at January 3, 2007 1:29 PM
eryximachus is clearly a renter.
sad to be so bitter about it though...
Posted by: anonymous at January 3, 2007 1:29 PM
15th off of 5th isn't ideal, but I'd MUCH MUCH MUCH rather be there than Lefferts Manor, Stuy Heights or anywhere else in Bed Stuy. You're still a short walk to amenities and all that the slope offers (crazy moms aside). Walking home on 5th is a pleasure compared to dealing with Flatbush in LM. And shopping over there requires a major car trip. Not to mention that, investment wise, the South Slope is a sure bet, whereas those other areas are still very risky.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 1:33 PM
I agree with anon at 1:33 pm. The South Slope is so much better, and the commute to Manhattan is pretty good for houses near either the 9th St or Prospect Ave stations (like this one).
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 1:39 PM
Hey south slope buyer (1:29)- I've lived in the neighborhood for a few years, between 5th and 6th on 19th st...
4th ave is ok, but it's almost always much better to be between 5th and 7th avenues (or higher) in that stretch. One exception is the block of 17th street between 4th and 5th aves - It's quite beautiful, with brownstones in good to excellent condition. It's also a skip to the subway there at prospect avenue.
But I don't think 4th ave is dangerous - i've taken the R train home at 3am many many times and it's cool. Also, after midnight, the D train makes all local stops on the R line.
I also have a new car I must park on the street and it's been fine the whole time as well.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 1:44 PM
Corcoran on crack again. Sheesh when will they stop over pricing houses? They only have to lower them once the places sit on the market and don't sell. They do it just to get the listings. Bah!
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 1:52 PM
Eryximachus, you're an interesting character. Still trying to figure out how your rhetorical strategy is connected to that of your namesake (or wait, are you HIS namesake? I always get that confused). A few ideas:
a) he was a (slightly) pompous windbag with muddled logic underpinning his arguments
b) he wanted the whole discussion to proceed in an orderly fashion, and for everyone to get a chance to speak (are you trying to draw out the lurkers?)
But I still can't figure out why you're so dern aggressive in the process.
Posted by: sylvia at January 3, 2007 1:55 PM
Having moved from the South Slope (14th Street, bet. PPW & 8th Ave.) to Lefferts Manor (albeit many years ago) I disagree with Anon. 1:33 and 1:39, but that's a very subjective choice either way--nothing for sane people to fight over.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at January 3, 2007 1:57 PM
1:57, the neighborhood is 180 degrees different now than it was even 3 years ago, much less "many years ago."
...south slope is changing for the better so rapidly that no one is even noticing.
this house is perhaps overpriced by 100k, maybe even 150k, (although i have not seen it so who am i to speculate?) but those that think its WAY overpriced are the ones smokin' something.
the reality is that houses and condos in this neighborhood are selling fairly quickly, the public elementary schools are very good, new restaurants and bars are opening up, crime is extremely low, and the proximity to manhattan is excellent.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 2:04 PM
Well, Bob, the S. Slope has changed a lot in the past decade--and a lot more than Lefferts Manor has. But I'll agree that it is subjective.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 2:05 PM
Further to anon at 2:04, see how many houses west of Prospect Ave and north of 4th Ave you can find with 2000 sq ft for less than $1.4 million and you'll see why this house will move quickly (whether it goes for under ask, over ask, ask, who knows, but it is not substantially overpriced).
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 2:12 PM
I support Eryximachus' diabolical advocacy on this website generally.
And I wish to admonish that snotty person who said with such pity that the eryximachus is "obviously a renter."
Why is it sad to be bitter about renting? I guess it depends how long you've been doing it and how scroogey you have to be to save money after paying skyrocketing rents? And then working out the tipping point where the two combined get you bitter. Is it 2 years? 8 years? 15 years?
NYC is expensive for many people. Few brooklynites can afford to shell out half a million bucks for small apartments in their nabes and a million bucks on unrenovated brownstones. But obviously it's tonier these days.
...ugh... makes me think Manhattan is cool. At least no one pretends they're keeping it real there.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 2:32 PM
anyone who supports comments such as...
these houses should be bulldozed, some of the crappiest houses in the country and crime ridden (on a perfectly decent street) is the one who should be admonished here. please go back to manhattan. you people who say ridulous, unfounded and downright rude comments to other people don't deserve to live in such a nice neighborhood as park slope.
Posted by: anonymous at January 3, 2007 2:37 PM
Anon. 2:05,
The S. Slope certainly HAS changed for the better--I never meant to question that, even though I, for one, wouldn't trade places.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at January 3, 2007 2:38 PM
Having lived in the vicinity for a long time, it is just remarkable to see these small wood frame houses sell for so much money. But I agree with Anon at 2:12. It's probably not significantly overpriced, as long as it looks as good in person as it does in the pictures -- ready to move in, everything up to snuff.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 2:42 PM
2:37
I don't live in Manhattan.
Been renting for 12 years in Park Slope. I'm probably the nice and polite lady you see walking her kids to school.
What a loser I am! I should wake up and smell the napalm of what nice has become.
Don't get so bent out of shape.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 2:53 PM
I have to agree with Bob Marvin, especially since the amenities have started coming to Lefferts Manor. With the recent opening of Enduro, following K-dog, a nice scene is developing in the Manor.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 3:00 PM
Come on people, lets focus on the house for a few minutes. Here are some reasons why I think that the house is priced too high:
1. In current 1 family layout with the living areas in the middle floor may be problematic for some families. While I would love to be 2 floor away from my husband watch TV, not so sure I want to be that far away from my sleeping children.
2. Converting back to 2 family also seems difficult. Here would you put the kitchen on the ground floor? In the "square" not now houses the bath? Then where would the bath go.
3. Lack of closets in one bedroom on the third floor.
Seems to me that this "move in condition" house will need a little reconfiguration for it to make sense.
With those factors in mind, I think $1.2 million is a bit much, IMHO.
Posted by: Donna at January 3, 2007 3:25 PM
I like Lefferts Manor and certianly don't want to get into a big thing here, but a coffee house and a restaurant do not amenities make. And two stores do not make a "scene." The area is still lacking ALL of the basics, like decent grocery stores. Everyone I know who lives there makes weekly car trips to the slope to shop. Which is fine if you're okay with it. As for future development, the two stores have opened on Lincoln, which is relatively tame, but there is only one (or two?) other storefronts on that block. So future places would have to be on Flatbush, and I'd bet that it will be a really long time before any store owner is willing to risk being on that stretch of Flatbush. So, if you like Lefferts Manor, that's cool. But I certainly wouldn't argue that it has amenities or a developing "scene."
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 3:32 PM
This block is just ok, not as nice as say, 11th or 12th between 4th & 5th. That said, I think the house is priced within $50,000 of where the market is right now. I really don't see it going for less than 1.15 to 1.175mm.
Posted by: west at January 3, 2007 3:41 PM
You want a decent grocery store?! Darling, my socks were knocked off when I first stepped into the Super Stop and Shop just off Bedford (next to an Old Navy outlet) last week. A HUGE, spotless, well stocked grocery store the likes of which you can only find in the suburbs is right there convenient to Lefferts Manor. My organic milk and eggs were waiting for me! And there is a PARKING LOT! I will never step foot in the disgusting Key Food on Seventh Avenue in the Slope again!
I will continue to drive to Fairway for meats, but hey, so does everyone in Park Slope!
And as for the scene, you haven't tried to get a table at Enduro on a Friday night. First there was one place, now there are two. My bet is that the wild success of Enduro will entice more places to open in the Manor.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 3:48 PM
3:48. You mean the stop & shop down by Abermarle road? That is sub par and requires driving to. One can buy all of one's basics in most neighborhoods without a major car trip.
Enduro is still in the honeymoon phase, but I'm sure it'll do well. But my point stands that stores won't venture onto Flatbush. I bet that the area's scene does not expand for at least a decade.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 4:04 PM
NOT worth fighting over. No one says that LM has the same amenities as PS (where I certainly shop, more than once a week). A "scene" IS starting to develop here, but most people who buy houses here do so because of the high quality of the homes and the low (for a brownstone neighborhood) population density, due to the single family covenant and zoning. All of life is a tradeoff. The fact that I chose LM doesn't mean that I think it's inherently "better" in any absolute sense--just that it better suites ME. YRMV--that's fine.
To get back on topic, I think the 15th St. house in question seems absolutely charming.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at January 3, 2007 4:07 PM
I must note with some satisfaction that this time it was a Lefferts *booster* who started the which-hood-is-better throwdown. Best defense is a good offense, Babs!
About the house: where's the kitchen in the rental? IS there one? Not in the Corcoran floorplan.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 3, 2007 4:08 PM
enduro is sooo good- and I go to KDog every sat and sun for non folgers coffee (which I buy from my bodega every m-f). It is the beginning of the end. or the beginning of the beginning, depending on how you look at it. I live on the south end of the plg historic distric, let me tell you, the influx of yuppies (white, black and green) and obvious hipsters is unreal. Where 6 months ago I counted 2 of us, the other morning I was shocked to count 6 yuppies (not all white-I don't go there) in a row. git while the gittin's good over here....
and that house is way too small for that kind of money. People I know live in a huge mansion over here for around the same price....if you can afford over a mil for house- shouldn't you be able to afford private school?
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 4:09 PM
Enduro will be lucky to survive the winter. It sucks and its days are numbered.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 4:10 PM
Seems that floorplan and some of the pics have changed from earlier today.
Anyway - fans and haters of this other nabes - doesn't matter. Question is about this house in this location - does price seem about right. Base it on recent sales, current listings, etc - has nothing to do if works for you personally or what other area you would choose.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 4:24 PM
4:09-- private school is fine, but if you're spending over a mil for a house, it's often because that's the most you can possibly spend. Private school tuition for one child is the monthly equivalent of several hundred thousand dollars' mortgage, for however long you send them there. Double it for two kids. Add the lost income from not having a rental in a single-family covenant house--that's another few hundred K in equivalent mortgage.
Nothing against Lefferts--you do get more space, the houses are gorgeous--but those are all unignorable factors in the overall calculus.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 3, 2007 4:25 PM
Linusvanpelt,
Actually, it was started by Anon. 1:33, who wrote "15th off of 5th isn't ideal, but I'd MUCH MUCH MUCH rather be there than Lefferts Manor, Stuy Heights or anywhere else in Bed Stuy." I merely wanted to point out that LM could be ANOTHER valid choice, for those so-inclined, without making any invidious comparisons with other neighborhoods. I have no quarrel with anyone who prefers to live in ANY other neighborhood in Brownstone Brooklyn.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at January 3, 2007 4:36 PM
LM would be a great place to live if simply staying alive were not such a challenge there.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 4:42 PM
Sorry, I can't control myself. Bob, I agree--it's a question of what you want. My response to Babs was that I'd prefer south slope over Lefferts because of the amenities and not having to endure Flatbush. If you don't care about amenities and don't mind dealing with that stretch of Flatbush, then Lefferts is fine for you. But I also agree that Anon is absurd to say that K-Dog and Enduro means that Lefferts has amenities or is about to get them. It doesn't. It isn't.
As for the house: Very cute but a bit small for location/price.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 4:47 PM
No, Bob, my 1:33 comment was in response to Bab's comment at 1:11, in which she said she'd prefer Lefferts Manor or Bed Stuy over south slope.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 4:51 PM
I thought I was the only one who noticed that Corcoran seems to post prices that aren't merely high, but are really, really crazy...
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 5:19 PM
come on folks, stay focused here....you know - on the 15th street house...
I think it will sell for at least a mil...there are probably lots of people who would be happy to have it all as a 1 family - it has a lot of versatility.
personally i think the layout is pretty cool and the house looks great. i even like the paint colors as is.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 5:20 PM
I thought I was the only one who noticed that Corcoran seems to post prices that aren't merely high, but are really, really crazy...
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 5:23 PM
Oh, that's a lovely house--just a little jewel. If I were only rich enough...
Posted by: carla at January 3, 2007 5:37 PM
The place is just too dern small. Has anyone else noticed that there is no couch in this house? If you can't fit a couch what point is there in buying the house?
While we're on the topic, I can't think of any great shopping near 15th street. Anyone?
And the Super Stop and Shop off Bedford is not "subpar". In fact, After years of shopping in the Slope I was delighted to find great items in that store. For instance, I just found out that Cascadian Farms makes organic cereal (found at Super S&S). I don't mind the 5 minutes in the car to shop there because I know that I will find parking right near my house in the Manor. I remember lugging home grocery bags in the slope and having to drag them up to my 3rd floor walk up apt. No more!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 5:43 PM
Just want to point out to folks that driving to shop was the norm in most Bklyn nabes until relatively recently. If you've lived here for more than 5 years you remember when 5th Ave was desolate, 4th Ave was an alternative to the BQE, everyone in Prospect Heights, Ft. Green and Clinton Hills yearned for a "real" supermarket, and Smith Street was solely for walking to and from the train station.
For better of for worse, Bk is changing.
Now with respect to this house, the price seems a little high to me, but may be perfect for a smaller family looking for more than apartment living. If you're committed to keeping it a 1 fam, there is a lot you could do with a little creativity.
Posted by: Oh Lord! at January 3, 2007 5:57 PM
5:43,
How about Eagle Provisions, Jubilat provisions, Time Galleries (great antique furniture store), B of A, Wash Mutual, Luigi's Pizza, Bagel Factory, Joe's and Lenny's Pizza, Lopez Bakery, El Rincon mex food, Rachel's mex, two good hardware stores (B&B and Park Slope Hardware) Has Beans Coffee, Cafe Sutra, Neergaard Pharmacy, C-Town, the YMCA...
Don't forget the nearby restaurants Bar Toto, Magnolia, and the hipster bar Barbes - all within about a 5 minute walk to 6th ave...nearby bars Commonwealth and Buttermilk on 5th ave
also about a 5 minute drive to fairway.
seems pretty great to me, and more is on the way, including some upscale wine bar on 5th ave next to aaron's and a big retailer on 5th at 13th street.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 6:05 PM
I think this house is probably fairly priced, if the pictures tell the true story. How old is the kitchen? Also, I don't know this block well but there are nice blocks in South Slope btw. 4th/5th--I live a few blocks further north. 15th is a bit further south than I would like. We have a similarly sized house--it's small but the advantage to ours is we have an extra floor--just an attic room with half bath, but it's great for my preteen daughter!
Posted by: anon in southslope at January 3, 2007 6:15 PM
Sorry Anon. 4:47/4:51--I didn't notice Babs'1:11 post. FWIW, I think that K-Dog and Enduro are a START (and a pretty good one, at that) but there's still a ways to go. Seems to me that I read long ago about Tilley's having helped to "transform" Ft. Greene.
BTW, I've heard rumors about another Smith Street restaurant owner thinking about opening in a vacant store at Flatbush and Beekman Pl.--that would be really something.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 6:16 PM
Oh Lord, that is why the Heights and the Slope were so much more expensive--because you did not need to drive to get groceries. In 15-20 years, when Lefferts has decent stores, prices will rise there too.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 6:18 PM
Sorry--I was (inadvertantly) Anon.6:16.
I really didn't intend to hijack this thread--I just reflexively jumped at a mention of LM.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at January 3, 2007 6:25 PM
Another restaurant would be great. Though I must agree with the neighborhood-naysayers that groceries and fruit and vegetables is more of a priority. I don't really mind driving to the slope to eat out, but I'd love to be able to buy groceries without getting into the car.
As for the South Slope/Lefferts Manor nuttiness: It's a question of what matters most to you. I don't care for the south slope, but I certainly do envy the stores, bars, restaurants. I tend to agree that it will be a long time before the Manor has basic amenities (people have been saying they're coming for the past 9 years now!), but I've been here for a long time and I'm used to it. If that's what is important to you, don't move here.
Posted by: rutlander at January 3, 2007 6:32 PM
this house looks like an apartment therapy regular's dreamhouse.
it does seem a bit high. there have been some houses on the north end of the slope between 4th and 5th (union, president, etc) hitting the market at just under $1million, but they have needed work. i'd offer a bit over a mil.
someone mentioned the are being less desirable than 7th avenue. I ived on 17th and 8th for a year, and Id have to disagree. true, the surrounding houses are somewhat nicer. the stores on 5th avenue are open later; all the gyms are closer; and the R kicks the F's ass any day of the week. Heck, the train choice alone makes being closer to 5th more desirable for me.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 6:50 PM
Not overpriced... a nicely laid out one family, if that's what you are looking for (which many people are!). If you want a two family, and have to factor in a reconfiguration, it's not worth it. Only downside is that the block is not that pretty, and is a bit of a throughway because it's extra wide.
Posted by: OE at January 3, 2007 7:02 PM
No surprise that most people are ragging on this house as that seems to happen to every HOTD.
Speaking as someone who lives outside this area but not that far away, the price seems close to reasonable (im sure the price they get will be slightly less than ask) and its in quite nice shape.
Unless you are willing to live in an "up and coming" nabe that comes with a lot of tradeoffs, you cant get much for $1M. A nice house in a safe nabe with good schools near transportation? It maybe a sad state of affairs but thats the way it is.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 7:07 PM
I think the house looks great!
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 7:30 PM
no way this is nowhere near the normal price these people are on drugs.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 7:48 PM
"I don't really mind driving to the slope to eat out, but I'd love to be able to buy groceries without getting into the car."
rutlander, do you have legs? Really!
All's a quick hop for food-stuffs, from a shop, store or 'raunt..or not?
I understand the "big shop" say one a week or every other, but the small stuff is abound in a few moments walk from THIS 15th St. locale. Other streets/near by nabes, well that's up to personal tastes. I'll keep to the sneaks before our car any day :)
Posted by: lostinbrooklyn at January 3, 2007 8:00 PM
Why does everything on this site have to turn in to a bashing session of one neighborhood compared to another? Gets repetitive and silly and makes me think you guys are sort of ashamed of your neighborhoods that you have to keep publicizing them so much. Perhaps Brownstoner should separate out the neighbood discussions by neighborhood so that when I want to know about a certain area I can see what people are saying about it. When you are talking about houses usually comps are the thing to examine. What other things have sold for nearby and for what price is usually a good indicator of what they will sell for. I think that's especially true in the market we are in now. Whether you have to hop in your car to get a certain item or not is not the issue.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 8:06 PM
I agree with 7:30. It's a really cute little house. Three stories. A nice yard. It will probably sell for a little less, but then again, who is to say. It's the luck of the draw in terms of when it's put on the market and whether that perfect buyer is out there at that time Stranger things have happened. Given the "comps" in the area, I don't think the price is all that unreasonable. I personally don't have the financial means to buy a townhouse in this area, but hey, best of luck to somebody who does.
And no, I'm not trying to sell the house. I am a reader who is cozy in my little apartment in Prospect Heights.
Oh, and yeah. What about those obnoxious buggies and baby carriages in Park Slope !!!
;)
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 8:19 PM
Gee, and all I meant by that was for that price (or less), I'd like a bigger, stone house (not a wood frame, because I think they're inhernetly more work to maintain and provide less natural insulation). Nothing about the neighborhoods at all, except that I think a good deal of the price of this one has to do with its location near PS attractions, which to me isn't that important. Otherwise, I love the look of the house and have absolutely nothing against it -- I was just expressing where I'd put that much money.
Posted by: babs at January 3, 2007 8:24 PM
These discussions DO relate to this house here, because it's the endless dilemma in NYC - space vs. location vs. what you get for the money.
It's an adorable house! Seems high, but they'll sell it for a little over a million. As for SS vs LM, there's no question South Slope is geographically closer on a map to the Park Slope amenities. (And no question LM has few amenities.) That said, you gotta be kidding me, it's way faster to take the Q one stop to PS from LM, than it is to take the bus or the R from South Slope to Union Street in prime PS. Taking the R from South Slope is pokey frustrating travel to the Slope or the city or wherever. As for paying for private schools, everyone in most nabes in Brooklyn (and Manhattan too for that matter) send their children to private school after 5th grade anyway, right? In the end, if everyone absolutely must have upscale restaurants near anyplace they buy, then no wonder everyone is paying too much for houses in Brooklyn.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 8:31 PM
I live in one of those little frame houses and it is definitely hard to find a couch that fits in the little rooms (and through the narrow little doorways). But it makes a nice one-family house; going to a 2-family makes for a tight squeeze if you have older children. It seems overpriced to me since similar houses farther up 15th were selling for less last year.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 8:34 PM
"Everyone" sends their kids to private school after 5th grade? What are you talking about?
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 8:38 PM
I think what 8:31 is refering to is the lack of decent public middle schools in this city. Even the "good" ones are vastly oversized!
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 8:42 PM
And BTW, in terms of neighborhoods, my favourite Brooklyn neighborhood is probably Fort Greene, but for this price there isn't too much you could get there anymore (at least not reasonably close to a subway -- Willoughby et al are just too far, unless you're closer to the Dekalb Ave stop. I was speaking only in terms of comparable pricing from what I've seen lately, so I certainly wouldn't want to bash any other neighborhoods. PS is not my cup of tea, for a variety of reasons (I'm no fan of the F or R trains -- I prefer the areas closer to the Q, B, 2, and 3 in PS), but I could understand how one could want to live there.
Posted by: babs at January 3, 2007 8:46 PM
I love Fort Greene too. And just think, not too long ago it was considered a bad crime area with no amenities. (I don't live there, I'm just a fan.)
What ARE the good public middle schools in Brooklyn? Are there any? We only hear discussion of the public elementary schools.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 8:51 PM
has anyone noticed what a dump the bedroom is? the bed is slammed against the very unattractive windows. i'd say this is absurdly overpriced for a place this diminutive.
Posted by: adriennui at January 3, 2007 10:06 PM
It's true there are fewer good middle school choices than elementary but there are a few good ones in District 15 -- MS 51 in Park Slope, Brooklyn School for Collaborative Studies in Carroll Gardens, Upper Carroll (might have a different name now)in Carroll Gardens are all very sought-after schools. New Voices in the South Slope is also supposed to be good.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 10:29 PM
school choice is also subjestiveSchool choice is also subjective. MS 51 in Park Slope is not academically challenging. I transferred my child out of there after one year. Good middle school choices in District 15 are very few to none. But there are good public middle schools in Brooklyn try Mark Twain or Bay Academy in district 21, just have to pay for the bus service. From PS it is about 200 a month. If live in Brooklyn and can afford to go private (even for a few years) then middle school would be the best time. Poly Prep, Packer ……to name a few.
Posted by: jake at January 3, 2007 11:11 PM
For elementary, it has gotten nearly impossible to get your child into a school outside of the district. I tried and failed. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Posted by: Anonymous at January 3, 2007 11:56 PM
not sure what district you are in or what to get in to.
There are some good elementary in District 15. PS 321 and 29 are the most sought after. They are well known through out the city. They are an excellent starting point to whatever you what to pursue later such as a selective public middle school or private school. I will not get in to all the creative ways to get into a school. But I will tell that a similar private school education can run you about 140K+ for PK to 5.
Posted by: Jess at January 4, 2007 12:22 AM
Darn those Park Slope mothers and their precious "bugaboos".
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 8:26 AM
Don't forget Hudde IS if you are looking for middle school options.. We actually moved out of District 15 to District 22 and one of our motivations was better MS and HS choices (Midwood, Morrow, express bus to Stuyvesant)... Seriously, everyone who moves to the Slope for 321 and 29 should hightail it across the park once your kids hit 5th grade...
Also, although house is cute, I would never look twice at a frame house with siding. I can't tell from the pic, but it looks like it has that faux brick asbestos siding... I could be wrong and its actually painted gray hardiplank...
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 8:39 AM
8:31 -- Who in the South Slope really needs to go to Union Street regularly? The southern part of PS has pretty much reached a point of critical mass in terms of services. (It's still getting better but btw the shops on 5th and 7th, you can get most of what you need.)
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 9:55 AM
My daughter is graduating from MS 51 this year and overall we have been happy. I agree it could be more academically rigorous, but kids go from there to all the best high schools in the city, so they are clearly doing something right.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 10:46 AM
I'd avoid sweeping statements about a public education. Plenty of brilliant, accomplished people throughout history have come out of public schools. It's what happens at home that truly determines later success in life. Children don't acquire a work ethic at school, they learn it from their families. There was a recent study that stated hard work outweighed intellect in achieving financial success every time, when looking at top CEO's. However it's tragic in this country that most of the public schools do not give people confidence in sending their children there.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 11:31 AM
Each to her own, but I would never send my kids to Private schools. They are way too socially and economically homogenous and the academics are far too conservative. We happen to live in a good pulic school district, so that isn't a problem, and we spend the extra money on after school classes and programs to fill-out the areas the school doesn't cover well enough (such as art and drama). This way my kids are getting a broad social and academic experience.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 12:06 PM
All the smart, ambitious kids end up leaving private school for Stuyvesant anyway. Might as well save your money.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 1:16 PM
To the poster asking what to do when you can't get your child into an elementary school in another district, my suggestion is to stay in your district, and try to convince all of your friends to do the same. Every one of the sought-after public "good schools" in Brooklyn used to be average-to-bad schools that nobody had any interest in at one time, until somebody stepped up and took an interest in them (whether it was parents, teachers, the principal, the board of Ed, etc.).
I was inspired to send my son to our local school last year for pre-K by a friend of mine who was putting all of her energy and time into improving the school. And now, a year and a half later, we have a new principal, lots of improvements, tons of good press, and high hopes for a school that for years had been mostly ignored by anyone who had the means to send their children elsewhere.
Sending your child to a school that is already "there" may seem like the easy way out, but you should also think about all the time you'll spend schlepping to and from school, PTA meetings, performances, fundraisers, events, teacher conferences, etc. You could instead use that time to improve your local school and help your whole neighborhood.
Posted by: Amy at January 4, 2007 1:20 PM
2 questions:
Is Park Slope Mom a joke?
Is Hudde still good? I went there in the 70's. Just wondering.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 1:43 PM
Park Slope Mom is the same person who's been trying to get an argument going about how annoying Park Slope moms are with their bugaboos. I think they're bored.
Posted by: sylvia at January 4, 2007 2:02 PM
And by "they", I mean the person trying to start an argument, not the Park Slope moms. Although that might be true too...
Posted by: sylvia at January 4, 2007 2:04 PM
"Just want to point out to folks that driving to shop was the norm in most Bklyn nabes until relatively recently. "
Huh? I 25 + years have lived in:
Clinton Hill
Fort Greene
Carroll Gardens
Ditmas Park
All that time I have not own a car, nor had more then a short walk to a local supermarket or bodega
and occasional longer walks with cart to bigger stores.
In fact, I ONLY will live in an area where I can walk to get my groceries, bakery, dry cleaning, etc.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 3:37 PM
Amy
Great points about the schools.
If all the parents that choose to send their children to private schools because they don't think the
public school are up to snuff, would just put their children into public schools and spend the time and money
in to projects to improve the public schools, then the public schools would be up to snuff.
By sending you kids to private school, you are condemning the public schools to failure.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 3:45 PM
Wow - I find it incredible that so many parents in Brooklyn, particularly PS, feel that there are no good public elementary schools.
There are at least four or five strong elementary schools in the south slope/center slope/windsor terrace area that are NOT P.S. 321.
Why is there such stubborn resistance to sending jr. to a good public school that doesn't have the 321 badge? (and I'm not knockin' 321 - it's obviously very good as well, albeit a bit crowded now.)
If even 25% of these "wimpy" homeowner parents actually enrolled their kids in these schools, the test scores would probably go through the roof. The schools would attract better teachers. The aftercare programs would flourish. Expectations would be raised all around. The kids who have no choice but to go to public school would benefit, as would the priveleged kids by virtue of being raised in a more inclusive socioeconomic atmosphere.
Folks, you don't even need to follow Amy's excellent suggestions. Some of these schools are already good enough for your kids. They're good enough for mine and I'm the pickiest guy in brooklyn (and yes, I could afford private school for my kids.)
Plus, for those that obsess about appreciation of investment, you would be doing your part to raise the value of your home by sending your obviously brilliant and talented and nurtured kids to the local zoned schools which will undoubtedly have a positive impact on that school's reputation, test scores, etc.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 4:42 PM
You are right and righteous but it is risky. If you fail you have subjected your child to a mediocre education. I guess it would be different if you have more kids on the way and would like to pioneer this effort. Overall, the private and public in some costly nabes will always excel it is a "socio-economic" mentality. Yes there are public schools that are exceptions. Getting parents to participate more or donate $ in nabes where most contingents are worried about survival basics will take time (unknown amount). I would tell any one to look at what your goals are. Evaluate from the top down. What routes are usually taken to reach a particular profession or university choice? Then take the best route from your stand point. I have never been good at gambling, I will not gamble with my most valuable asset “my children”. Take the time and visit a broad array of schools public and private (it will be an eye opening experience) one thing is to talk about disparities the other is to see it. Not all privates are up to par, there are all types. I do want to create rally for or against. But base your decision on facts, statically proven on average.
Posted by: jess at January 4, 2007 4:54 PM
I don't think that's the way to go. Based on the facts and statistics of my son's school as they were before he was there, I would have stayed away. It was an uninviting place where many teachers were unhappy and the students were getting shortchanged.
It's also a gamble to let your local school remain so-so and stand by as it churns out uninspired students. The best way to keep the haves and have nots of Brooklyn separate is for the more affluent, educated parents to send their kids to private schools or schools in other neighborhoods, so that the neighborhood parents and kids don't know each other and don’t interact.
I'm not going to try to plug public schools over private; I think it's an apples-to-elephants kind of thing. I just think that many opportunities are lost when a large group of parents all compete for a small number of spots in crowded elementary schools outside of their own neighborhoods, when there are so many schools just waiting for attention.
Posted by: Amy at January 4, 2007 5:35 PM
Amy, you are an inspiration to me. Truly. When we have a child, I hope to find like-minded parents in our neighborhood to partner up with in the way you did with your friends. But then I care as much about my child developing a strong committment to public service, as I care about their intellectual development.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 6:38 PM
Amy,
which school is it that you are referring to. i would like to be part of this transition. I have a 3 year hoping to apply for pre-K this march for sept.
TY
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 6:52 PM
That's very nice of you to say, but if I accept the compliment I'm doing a disservice to the parents who spearheaded the effort and rolled up their sleeves a couple of years before our kids were old enough for pre-k. I'm embarrassed to say that I did very little in comparison with about a dozen other parents who really took charge, but I did what I could by supporting them and staying at the school when things were looking pretty bleak.
When my son was a baby I went to a speech given by Carmen Farina (who recently retired as deputy chancellor after 40 years working in the public school system), who said that all it takes is 15 committed parents to turn a school around. I didn't really believe her at the time, but she was absolutely right.
Posted by: Amy at January 4, 2007 6:53 PM
I'm reluctant to single out our school because I'd love for everyone to think that it's their local school that's improving and worth checking out, but it's PS11 on Waverly in Clinton Hill.
Posted by: Amy at January 4, 2007 6:56 PM
4:42 here...
Jess, I have to say that I think you are being a bit dramatic with the talk of "gambling on my kids education" by sending them to the zoned elementary school in park slope.
Of course I did my homework. Not only did I peruse www.insideschools.org, I visited many schools, met the administration, talked with other parents, etc. I weighed all of the data very carefully, and we went for it.
Were we a bit nervous at first? Yes! Was this even a semi-decent school five years ago? Probably not! But our concerns and fears were assuaged within the first few weeks, and this is now our third year at this school. We are extremely pleased with the education that our kids are getting. And, for the most part, we like the other schoolkids and their parents too.
I personally don't think that a child will necessarily have less of a chance at an Ivy-league type education by attending a NYC public elementary school. You are implying (actually stating) that it is "risky." Well, I respectfully disagree.
Now, the middle schools and high schools are a different deal, but that's another debate. And we are now doing heavy research on middle schools, and we have three to choose from within our zone that will probably work out just fine.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 6:59 PM
I've been teaching for about fifteen years. I've taught at both public and private schools. I've seen poor schools produce extremely bright and well-prepared students, and I've seen excellent schools produce poor students.
AT LEAST as important as the school itself, in my opinion, is the parents' attitude toward education. If you are enthusiastic about education and your child gets to participate in your intellectual life, nothing will spur his or her intellectual growth more than this. Many of you will pooh pooh this, and I myself would never have expected the parents' attitude to be so influential in this respect, but it is. This is the one thing that my years as a teacher has confirmed at every turn.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 7:42 PM
The zoned NYC public elementary school for this house is P.S. 124 Silas Dutcher School / 515 4th Avenue
It gets high marks (and has high test scores) from insideschools.org
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 8:34 PM
I live in Windsor Terrace and have for the past 20 years. I dont drive and can do all my grocery shopping, dry cleaning, and local errands within a 5 minute walk and Im zoned for one of the best elementary schools in Bklyn.
Its not a cheap area but you get a lot for your money.
Anyone who thinks you have to live in a bad nabe or send your kids to private school b/c you live in brooklyn, doesnt know enough about brooklyn. Not surprising since most of todays brooklyn residents look down on any neighborhood that doesnt have a starbucks...but a shame just the same.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 4, 2007 8:45 PM
The brightest kids I knew in college were Stuyvesant grads... public school. The laziest, least open minded kids - the ones who never did homework because no one was standing over then to do it, blew off tests, abused drugs, etc... were from some of the "best" privates in the country(Exeter, Groton, etc...). When my daughter was born, I looked at her and thought "Stuyvesant." I hope it comes true for her... It's what every NYC parent should aspire to, if it's right for their particular child.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 5, 2007 2:35 PM
2:35, just how many kids do you think Styvesant can accept? Half the bloody city thinks "I'll just send my children to Styvesant". With more and more families choosing to remain in the city to raise their children, you're going to have to think beyond one school.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 7, 2007 9:25 AM
sorry, I meant Stuyvesant.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 7, 2007 9:27 AM
THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED THERE MOVED OUT BECAUSE OF LEAD CONTAMINATION IN THEIR KIDS!! They did all kinds of renovations, had twins in the process, kids tested for high lead levels, and they just up and moved, later, c-ya, just sell it now.
See if Corcoran tells you that at the Open House. For some reason, I think they won't.
Posted by: SERIOUS Lead paint dust problem here at January 7, 2007 11:24 AM
if the high lead levels are true, it's pretty uncool that they wouldn't disclose it....
that said, it's not that difficult to fix the problem. every surface needs to be correctly primed and repainted by a professional - that should solve any issues.
remember, any house built before about 1978 will have lead paint on the walls and ceilings. the problem is when ignorant homeowners sand or otherwise disturb it and breathe in the dust they create.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 7, 2007 11:33 AM
Yup, bad idea to renovate while living in a house for exactly that reason. You don't want to breath in lead dust, especially all night while you're sleeping.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 8, 2007 10:49 AM
196 15th is on the market as well. That's the house at the end of that row of houses. It's only like 1500 sq. ft. The footprint is like 12 ft shorter than 202 15th. They're asking $925000. And it's pretty much a gut reno.
There's no way they'll sell that place for $900G, but they might get around 8. In any case the 202 place will very likely go for over a mil. Being that it's a vintage piece and all.
Posted by: anonymous at January 13, 2007 2:26 PM
I think this is the house that was featured on Property Ladder on TLC. The old owners moved to New Jersey, and the new owners were pregnant when they moved in. Catch the rerun to see the renovation.
Posted by: guest at January 4, 2008 10:40 AM
You are almost right, 10:40. The show is called Moving Up, and this was the house.
Posted by: guest at January 29, 2008 8:53 PM
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