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January 16, 2007
Finding a Town House for Less Than $1 Million
Newsflash! What's the secret to finding a brownstone for under a million bucks? Looking in "overlooked neighborhoods" and being willing to take on a big renovation. In addition to Mott Haven in the Bronx and Sunnyside in Queens, Bedford Stuyvesant and Crown Heights are cited as the ripest spots in Brooklyn. No argument here. “You can still get a lovely brownstone in Bedford-Stuyvesant for well under $1 million,” said Halstead's William Ross (himself a brownstone owner, albeit in ritzier Cobble Hill). “The market begins around $650,000 to $700,000 for a real four-story brownstone.” Comment: Plus at least another $200,000 in renovation costs.
Finding a Town House for Under a Million [NY Times]
Photo by Chad Wilcomb
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Comments
So let me get this right ... I can get one for under $1 million but I have to put in $250k to $450k in renovations. hmmm, how do you spell specious logic?
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 12:14 PM
We bought a two family brownstone in Sunset Park for well under the 1 million mark even with renovations and repairs. The houses still have a lot of original detail and charm and the commute is 10 minutes extra from our former park slope house. Check it out if you want to buy a brownstone.
Posted by: sarah g at January 16, 2007 12:47 PM
would an african-american family be welcome in sunset park?
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 12:52 PM
That article was so absurd! The Times has really lost any connection to reality for at least half of it's readership. A million is not "affordable" to many. And where did they get the idea that a "typical" renovation of a brownstone is 600K? We did ours for 100K and I know poeple who have done it for less. Also, they missed a lot of Brooklyn neighborhoods with plenty of townhouses going for under a million, such as Sunset Park, Lefferts Manor/PLG, Bay Ridge, and others. I think the author must have taken a bribe from Corcoran/BHS and the Contractors union.
Posted by: disgusted at January 16, 2007 1:05 PM
What does a 100K renovation look like?
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 1:18 PM
For 100K we put in a new kitchen (Ikea), upgraded some of the electrical, repainted, and did the floors. The house was in good shape but had been neglected. Most of the houses I see listed for 700-900K in bed stuy, PLG, sunset, etc are either renovated or look to need consmetics. The 600K the Times talks about is for an all WaterWorks, central AC reno. Which is nice if you can afford it, but hardly "typical."
Posted by: disgusted at January 16, 2007 1:32 PM
If you can't afford a million dollar house, you should think twice about what you are doing living in new york city. That is below the median price of a condo in manhattan. There are a lot more affordable places to live than new york city for sure.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 1:43 PM
Anon at 1:43 -- why oh why does this blog attract so many completely stupid commenters? No one who can't afford a million dollar house should be living in NYC? Were you dropped on the head repeatedly as a child? Is that why you say such stupid things?
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 1:47 PM
I think 1:43 is totally right. If I had to buy now I would defintely leave NYC. It is simply not at all worth it. If you can afford well over a million then sure it is a great place. But otherwise you're spending an absurd amount of money for a so-so house in a so-so area with so-so schools. That is what is stupid. I adore the city, but it is not nearly worth it.
Posted by: disgusted at January 16, 2007 1:54 PM
Is that Greene Ave. between Bedford and Nostrand?
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 1:56 PM
1:43, that's so right on. I always base my decisions on what city to live in after reviewing Corcoran's annual Manhattan median condo sales data. Give em a break. Who would ever want to live in NYC if it was only inhabited by those who could afford a $1mm apartments?!
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 2:03 PM
I certainly understand what 1:43 and disgusted are saying. I think you'd have to be an idiot not to consider your opitons as far as other (cheaper, nicer, easier) places to live. Whether it is really worth the scarifices and cost to live here is a personal decision. But anyone with "limited" means should totally look around before deciding if it is worth it to them. And 1:47/2:03, don't be such jerks.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 2:07 PM
Anon at 2:07 -- if YOU don't like NYC and YOU don't consider the costs to be worth the benefits, then YOU can leave. You'd be an idiot not to, IF that's the way you feel. As for ME, I have lived in Brooklyn for over 20 years, I love living in Brooklyn, I have no intention of leaving EVEN THOUGH I cannot afford a million dollar home. If you don't understand that, then you certainly don't belong here, and I would never try to convince you that you do. Please do me the same courtesy and respect my personal decision without calling me an "idiot" or "stupid".
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 2:11 PM
2:11, I've lived here for 45 years, and I have no intention of leaving. Why would I--I own a brownstone. I never called you an idiot. I said one would have to be an idiot to not consider ones options--sounds like you have considered yours and have made your decision. Good for you. I wish you had decided to leave, but so be it.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 2:19 PM
2:19 -- Pay attention. Poster above stated that anyone who cannot afford to drop a million shouldn't live in NYC. Are you actually surprised that this would generate a negative response? Good on you for owning a brownstone -- not relevant to your condescending advice that people of "limited" means should consider living elsewhere. You state, and I quote, "you'd have to be an idiot not to consider your opitons as far as other (cheaper, nicer, easier) places to live". Sorry to read that you think so little of your home -- since you find it harder and apparently not as nice as other places, may I suggest that you sell and move to Florida.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 2:24 PM
2:11,2:24, you're not reading the posts. Your 2:11 post was responsding to my 2:07 post and I did not say that anyone who couldn't afford a million should leave. I said they should consider their options. And accepting the fact that Brooklyn is a rough place to live and to raise a family doesn't mean I don't love it here. I just love other places too. You should try to get out some time.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 2:31 PM
2:31 -- I did read your posts. I read your post above where you said you understood the point of view that people without millions should leave, and you complained that others who jumped on that comment were being jerks. Do adults really need to be told to "consider their options"? Like I said -- condescending. And again, sorry you find Brooklyn so very "rough". Don't really know what you mean by that, but good luck with it.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 2:37 PM
you people never cease to amaaze me arguing over such mundane things.
Posted by: anon at January 16, 2007 2:43 PM
I am surprised that there isn't a little more discussion of frame houses on this site. I realize that it's called Brownstoner for a reason. However, all that dark wood in a lot of the "original detail" homes does not appeal to all. Lots of cheaper frame houses (south slope, windsor terrace, etc.) have at least some of that much-sought-after original detail--marble mantels, tin ceilings, etc. I just would like to see more discussion of the non-brownstone (cheaper) options. I completely realize that some people just want that brownstone and won't settle for "less" but I'd love to hear from more frame owners, like me!
Posted by: anon in South Slope at January 16, 2007 2:57 PM
God(dess) bless you, Bob Marvin, for being the only sane one here (you too, South Slope!). 1:18, I'll tell you what a $150k TOTAL renovation of a 4 story brownstone looks like...it looks like someone took great pains (that's me!) to restore the home to it's original beauty, when in actuality, well, that's what I did...very painful! The money was saved by finding salvaged materials to replace the missing details, including lighting, tubs, sinks, flooring and cabinetry. Lots of sweat, lots of time...but it came in under $150k and that includes upgrading of systems. It's no fun, but it's possible.
Posted by: yente at January 16, 2007 3:30 PM
Didn't read the article but I'm suprised that there's no mention in the comments about the possibility of prices continuously dropping nationwide over the next couple of years. Not guaranteed to happen but the market can tilt either way. Right now the market appears to be trending down considering inventory and YOY sale prices. IF buying is a struggle (that seems to be the tone of the topic), why not wait? What's over a million now may be under a million by decade's end. Even buying outside of NYC may be a waste of money AT THIS TIME. I'm no crystal ball but this position of waiting it out should be strongly considered.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 3:48 PM
useless, ill-informed, article.
Posted by: franz fanonymous at January 16, 2007 3:50 PM
I'm also a Windsor Terrace fan (and resident), specifically the area surrounding the Ft. Hamilton subway stop. Townhouses are selling around here for between 699k and 1 million. A million gets you a wonderfully renovated townhouse while 699k gets you a fixer upper. Nothing wrong with that. Some much less and the trade off is a 5 minute walk to WT prime (PPW) and 10 mins to the slope..if you choose to take a bus or train call it 5 mins to the slope. Buy a fixer upper, and all your hard work and money is returned should you decide to sell. I can't say the same for the slope given the high cost of purchase.
Posted by: Wiser Terrace at January 16, 2007 5:18 PM
It seems that, as others have said, the Times writer talked to one realtor and then asked her friends what they bought and how much their renovations cost.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 5:30 PM
There are lots of potential deals in south slope/greenwood heights and windsor terrace. In a way it's kind of cool that these areas are off the radar, although i suspect that will change within the next few years.
Some frame houses are superior to some brownstones/limestones and are even on better, friendlier, safer, leafier blocks, but most people can't "see the forest..." Their loss...
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 5:31 PM
Thank you Yente. Ipresume your 3:30 post refers to my earlier (I'm sure accidently)deleted post about how, withluck,one could find a well-maintained smaller (i.e.two story) house in Lefferts Manor, or the rest of the PLG Historic District, that would not need heavy renovation.
OTOH, maybe you were referring to the general levelof sanity I bring to this blog (he modestly observed). :-)
Posted by: Bob Marvin at January 16, 2007 5:45 PM
Believe it or not, brownstone life is not all that desireable to about 99% of the NYC population. (obviously im one of the 1% since Im here) So being able to afford it or not is not an issue in the slightest. To say that someone who can't afford a $1M home should move out is absurb.
And as has been mentioned, $1M still goes a long way provided you dont need to live in a brownstone in a hipster nabe.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 6:07 PM
i am right between both nabes PS and WT. I love the amenities in PS. But I would rather live in WT (quiet, parking, diversity, less density). Hang out and party in other nabes but when I go home I need more of an oasis. anyway, everyone knows Northern BK real estate will soon only be reachable to the middle class. or people who pool their $ together.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 6:26 PM
It's crazy that those small Windsor Terrace townhouses can sell for a million bucks. Unless you really love walking, they're a total rip off.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 6:58 PM
small WT house boasts 1500+ sf, and at 699k is a better deal then a sub 1000sf 2br in the slope for a million. its all relative, but pound for pound, WT is a better value then your run of the mill condo special. If your drive around WT its looking alot more like SanFran these days, folks ripping off the siding and opting for colorful victorian and italianate clapboard. many homes are also being reno'd with an eye toward green techniques as well. i must admit, the air is much easier to breath in WT, especially given the zoning prevents development (far of 1.25).
Posted by: anon at January 16, 2007 8:15 PM
I love walking, I think I'll take a stroll through Windsor Terrace. It really sounds like an interesting area. How are the schools in the area?
Posted by: silverwoman at January 16, 2007 8:18 PM
Windsor Terrace is a diverse neighborhood? They have both Anglos and Saxons?
Posted by: Anonymous at January 16, 2007 9:28 PM
My grandfather, who lived in Windsor Terrace for 35 years, would have punched you right in the nose for calling him Anglo, Saxon, Anglo-Saxon, or any variant thereof. Like a lot of folks in Windsor Terrace at the time he was 100% Irish.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 17, 2007 2:20 AM
wt was definitely irish. very irish.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 17, 2007 8:40 AM
WT is mostly irish, italian and hispanic with a few recent transplants from the midwest thrown in for good measure along with a minority of black, chinese and "other". Its not really all that diverse but there arent any really diverse nabes in Bklyn. Every brooklyn neighborhood has some majority...so its just a matter of selecting the features of a community you prefer and living with whoever is there already.
You can't buy a limestone or brownstone for under a $1M here...but you can buy a cute little brick or larger frame house for less than $1M - well less if you dont mind being on the edges. You get all the benefits of the Park and proximity to Manhattan without the insanity of Park Slope. So its a very good option for many people - Im certainly a big fan and find most people who live here love it.
The neighborhood is EXTREMELY small so to say you have to like walking is silly. The whole nabe is about 7 blocks wide and 4 avenues long. How much walking could you possibly do? Yes, you have to be able to walk a block or two. Those blocks tend to be tree lined and full of people who love their home and take care of them. Wow, what an inconvienance!
Posted by: Anonymous at January 17, 2007 9:40 AM
All white people look the same to me.
Posted by: loser at January 17, 2007 9:48 AM
I don't understand how folks get wrapped up in these arguements. I swear when Brownstoner posts a topic, it's like a game of "telephone". By the time you get to the end, it's a completely different topic.
Being that this blog is directed to and read by predominantly Brownstone enthusiasts, it makes it fairly obvious the purpose of this post.
"I'd love to own a Brownstone.....But I don't want to spend $1MM to get one....Where o where can I find one for less?"
Now if you find one for $800K and do a reno for $200k.... check my math, but I think that brings you to $1MM.
So that's not the answer. That said, there are some places that you can find some brownstones for less that $750K. In bed-stuy, Corcoran has a 3 story on Putnam listed @ $735K. And doesn't look to need $200 in renos. A 4 Story on Decatur listed @ $730.
So the moral of the story is, if a Brownstone is what you want, and you don't mind a "fringe" neighborhood,(whatever that means), then you can get one!
Posted by: NewStoner at January 17, 2007 11:25 AM
Responding to an african american family being welcome in sunset park. I think any race would be welcome here. The neighborhood is currently predominently hispanic and asian with a large population of arabic and the longer time residents which include the irish and some italien. Overall I think it is very mixed, but like me you would be in the minority.
Posted by: sarah g at January 17, 2007 11:38 AM
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