211 23rd Street: Livin' La Vida Scarano

"at park slope south" Can someone sue these people. This is a lie.Park slope ends at 16th street. all you real estate agents who continue to lie like this should be ashamed of yourselves.LIARS. What a load of crap. Who is buying these properties?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 11:32 AM

Am I the only person in New York who can't afford any of this shit? Who has this kind of money and why the hell would they want to live here if they did? This building is ugly, the house next to it is fugly and for 800k you get a 1st floor and a basement?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 11:37 AM

anon 11:37 AM, I feel your pain. I agree, it's no fun being poor.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 11:57 AM

What happened to the 85 Hudson feature?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 12:05 PM

400k is a joke for a studio in that area too.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 12:13 PM

"I feel your pain. I agree, it's no fun being poor."

But that's just it, I'm not poor at all and I still can't afford this. Well, I could afford the studio, but who pays 400k for a studio, especially in this part of Brooklyn? I know I wouldn't want to, particularly since it looks pretty bad and like a total sucker deal. But I have to wonder just where the moneyed suckers are coming from who will buy a studio or 1 bedroom for this amount of money in what otherwise is a very very plain working class area. Who are these people and why would they spend such big $$ on something like this?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 12:36 PM

12:36, that was tongue in cheek. but really, you're poor, most of are, by the new standard of wealth being defined by real estate values within the city.

The middle class nabes have shifted from the slope to the 'less desirable' areas such as sunset park, bed-sty, crown heights, etc. That's my perception; I could be wrong.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 1:09 PM

Those property taxes are obviously totally wrong--you don't pay $27K in taxes on an $800K 1 BR. I'd guess they would be a fourth of that.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 1:22 PM

Yeah, but this basically IS Sunset Park. I have good friends who live on this block. Social workers, school teachers, office workers, musicians, garment workers, auto mechanics, and retirees are amongst the people who own houses on this block and are pretty represntative of the neighborhood as a whole. Most of the housing, aside from the new stuff like this, consists of plain aluminum siding wood frame boxes, 1980's federal housing program assisted thrown-up co-ops, and a bunch of older apartment buildings in varying states of repair.

It's essentially the same as much of Sunset Park, aside from the townhouses by the park itself. It's not a bad neighborhood by any stretch, and there are just a couple of new restaurants and bars on 6th and 5th Aves. now amongst the Mexican and Polish stores, but Park Slope it ain't. I know the folks who live and own there are surprised, bemused, and somewhat shocked to see places like this with their Park Slope pricing come to their neighborhood, especially all studios and 1 bedrooms in an area that desperately needs more family housing.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 1:25 PM

1:25 makes an important comment. As offensive as these buildings are in terms of ugliness, ill-advised floor plans, and bulk, it is bothersome at a very deep level that they are not built for people to actually live in. By that I mean, MOST people--the overwhelming majority of people in this neighborhood, this borough, this city and this country--expect to own a home they can live in for at least a few years for $800,000. What we're seeing being thrown up around Brooklyn are cynical pieces of crap designed to make some nasty piece of work a very quick, very large buck at the expense of the homeowners and taxpayers already on the block. Who's buying these pied-a-turds? People desperate to hop on the real estate profit train, now leaving the station. not local or new families looking to put down some roots. These are the abandoned properties of the future.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 1:35 PM

What I find strange about this board is that they're so many people who stay stuck in a rigid perception of the market.
The property and the location might be sh-t to you but it's obviously a gem from the perspective of the buyer.
Those 2-3 store frame houses are all headed for demolition, eventually. The scarano type condos are the model for future development in the area. Not that I agree with it. But this appears to be the current trend.
The slope is also part of an evolving continuum. The borders of the slope, along with their trendy restaurants and boutiques, are encroaching on greenwood heights and sunset park.
Cozy 1 bedrooms (no bigger than 400sf) by the cemetery are renting for upwards of $1500. Prospect park and the eateries and stores of park slope are only a few minutes bike ride away.
Not that I agree with their decision, but I believe the buyers of these condos are buying into the future of the area.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 1:53 PM

There are literally 800k 1 bedrooms all over Brooklyn. I seriously want to know who would pay this price to live in one in an ok neighborhood but not a great one?

I bought a studio in Chelsea in 90. Sold that for 3 bedroom in Williamsburg in 95. Sold that for a two bedroom in Park Slope in 01 and sold that for 1/2 a building in Bushwick, which I'm renovating now.

None of these went for anywhere near those prices (well sort of) but the neighborhood was established (except for the sake of Bushwick, which is still a shithole, but more fun and vacant then the rest of Brooklyn).

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 1:55 PM

I disagree 1:35, the buyers for these properties are no longer the flippers/speculators/investors that fueled the market in 2004 and 2005. The current buyers most likely plan to set down roots and grow with the nabe. They probably identify with the park slopers and plan to age in place with their neighbors in the slope.
Ex-park-slopers are already fleeing to the outer reaches of sunset park (48th st, 60th street, etc). And this nabe is right smack in between both groups. So I don't really see these condos (ugly or otherwise) as being the abandoned buildings of the future.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 2:00 PM

2:00 and the threads your sewing - speculate all you want. The point is these condos are obscenely overpriced for that neighborhood. With the monthly tax fees of $2200 1:56 calculated on top of your mortgage / etc - the buyer of this 1 bedroom apartment has to making around 200k a year minimum to afford this. If you are making 200k do you want to live here?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 2:09 PM

1:53 is very wise, and so is 2:00pm

greenwood heights is already an amazing neighborhood, like it or not.

of course i own here - i'm smart.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 2:24 PM

Not my cup of tea but I'm sure it's somebody's cup of tea because it sold.
I take my hat off to old-timers like Bob Marvin, we need more folks like him in the bk. People who aren't caught up in the trends; people that just want to live in and maintain a great home on a good block, even if it's in a less popular nabe.
I wouldn't buy in this development if I had 800k to spend. I would be more inclined to buy the slated-for-demolition frame house next door because I know that it's just a matter of time before the developers come knocking (maybe 5 -10 years from now).

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 2:26 PM

so by buying a 850k 1 bedroom in a working class neighborhood that may and hopefully according to the buyer one day be like the neighborhoods they're fleeing - they are getting away from pretense. Sounds like they are the pretense and are paying a super high price to be ther first to do so. These prices are the same as prices in Park Slope / Fort Greene, etc only there isn't dick to do here. It's further away from Manhattan and as of now UGLY. You buy into a community like this on the cheap. Not at top dollar.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 2:48 PM

2:35 - What the fuck is so "real" about greenwood and why is worth paying almost a million bucks to live in this so called reality.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 2:53 PM

Agree, 2:48. But what's the sense in questioning the price that a property sold for legitimately. The real estate market in nyc has never made much sense to me. I suspect that it will continue to boggle the mind (for better or worse) in the months/years to come.

People's circumstances, checklist and motivations differ dramatically from yours and mine. Maybe the buyer has some insider info that you or I might not be privy to. Or maybe he/she is just another sucker born yesterday.

The sale price might be an anomaly but only time will tell.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 3:07 PM

everybody calm down. jeez. i don't even know what folks are aguing about anymore...

yeah, 800k in that nabe is steep, especially if the taxes work out as mentioned. that's crazy.

i bought a 2 story wood frame at 8th ave (and 20th) for $500k 2 years ago and felt a bit crazy for doing so. it doesn't seem so stupid now. still, it's a house, which for me, beats a condo by a long shot. ps my taxes are about 800 bucks a year.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 3:12 PM

greenwood is a great nabe - it's unassuming, diverse, people are friendly, old timers are cool with new folks...overall it just has a great vibe going for it.

i find it peculiar that people are bashing it here, as it is logical that as the slope pushes further south, this nabe will no doubt increase in value.

is it as pretty as ft. greene? absolutely not, but the schools are good, crime is low, restaurants and bars are coming...AND it is away from AY.

of course these particular condos are overpriced (between 4th and 5th, Scarano, high taxes {the taxes MUST be incorrectly listed!!!} and the small floor plans) but they will probably sell out at prices that might surprise everyone...

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 3:34 PM

I don't think anyone is arguing here. We all seem to agree that the 800k sale tag on the duplex is a bit insane.

It might be my own quirk but I find it curious that some people get really offended, even angered, by the prices that people are continuing to drop on condos in the bk, even in less sought after nabes like greenwood heights.

It's almost as if they're trying to telepathically send prices in a downward spiral and they get angry when prices continue to inch (or even balloon) upwards.

I'd rather hear from folks like 1:55 who've bitten the bullet and made the move to a less popular and trendy nabe. He/she seems to be faring very well.

Waiting on the sideline just seems like it can make you into a bitter person. Maybe 11:32 and 11:37 was born with a bitter, mean streak. Or maybe someone suggested that the real estate market in nyc was a rose garden.

My personal inclination is to move out to a nabe that figures less prominently on the radar and grow my garden there. That's why I have so much respect for the old-timers.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 3:40 PM

Completely agree Anon 3:40. The only people who would be outright enraged by a higher prices are bitter. Get over it. Some people actually love this nabe (or any other that is argued about on this blog) and are willing to pay a premium to live there despite people like some of the posters here who seem to have a grudge against EVERYTHING.

Has anyone in the past 6 months mentioned a property that was priced fairly? No matter what the price tag, everyone goes crazy and says its overpriced.

The market will determine the price and so far, these condos in the so called "Greenwood Heights" are selling well.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 3:57 PM

anon 1:35 is cutting edge. He/she lived in some super trendy nabes before they became widely acclaimed as urban hotspots: Chelsea, Williamsburg, Park Slope and now Bushwick. If what he/she is saying is true I would suspect that Bushwick is on its way to becoming the next "it" nabe.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 4:06 PM

I like the neighborhood just fine, but it just isn't really a place for the 800k for a one bedroom crowd. Like the comments above show, they just aren't going to see the amenities they want in the area (like the comment above says "there isn't dick to do here" - except work and raise families) for some time to come, if ever. And to the extent that this area becomes one of 800k 1 bedrooms and 400k studios you're going to lose the very thing that makes the neighborhood distinctive.

Now, if they were selling 2 and 3 bedrooms for something like these prices I might understand it, because those would be the type of units that people I know in Park Slope, Carroll Gardens, Manhattan, etc. are looking for.

But I still have to wonder just who, precisely, is buying stuff like these apartments. One poster suggests it is speulators trying to get on the real estate band wagon before it's too late (but then why not buy a house in the area? They're not priced that much more). Another says it's "young people", but where are these young people coming from with all of this money? I sure never had any money like that (even taking inflation into account) before I was 30, and I went to a good school and had pretty good jobs. I would think that the market of folks over 30 would be looking for a bit more family space than a studio or a 1.

So I'm honestly curious, who is buying these things? Where are they from? And where did they get all this money while the salaries and wages of the rest of us are stagnating (or declining in relation to inflation)? And over the long term are there anywhere near enough of them to absorb and support the sort of building that's going on here and elsewhere in Brooklyn (Williamsburg anyone?)?

Of course one also wonders where the hell the rest of us are supposed to live, but that's not really an argument for this board.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 4:22 PM

Hi #135 Here. Thanks for the big ups. Anyways, yeah Bushwick (parts of it) are pretty cool. There's a sort of abandoned warehousey part and pat with some pretty cool houses. Most of the new comers are young and I mean like 18-27 young. Which is real cool to me. they don't have jobs they're either in school or just fuck around with art. I like this vibe. Not only do they stay out late on their bikes and what not but they are generally pretty interesting. (Like Williamsburg (91-99). As for the warehouse part - where I bought - there were barely any people living there to begin with so you're not coming on anyone's turf. Grant it there are no bodegas or laundrymats, etc but it's quiet and When I bought - for 800k you can get a whole building.

I bought a huge building for 550 a few years back. I split it with friend. We divided it in half. I have the first two floors (which i removed the 2nd floor so it's on huge room)and the back yard and he has the top two and the roof. Our neighbor lives in converted garage which is sick.

It's still pretty hairy - the bars are illegal and kind of makeshifty in changing locations - definitely not for the faint of heart.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 4:25 PM

Why are these apartments so expensive? I just don't understand it. I have the same question as others on this thread -- who are the people who are buying them? Does all new construction have to be this expensive? Is it just a matter of capital flowing to wherever there's the most money to be made? Don't my husband and I -- with a household income around 150K -- and the many others like us --constitute a market?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 5:08 PM

150k is great!

with my first place, my wife and i started with about 100k combined 5 years ago - bought a small place for about 250k, sold it for a huge profit and bought a 600k place, where we currently live.

that's how you do it. little deals that gradually become bigger deals. buy a condo for 300k, or a co-op in ditmas/kensington/windsor for 250k (and you'd probably get 700 square feet) hold it for three or four years, sell and upgrade. no one can guarantee appreciation, but over the long haul the prices are not going down.

good luck.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 5:16 PM

Hey, Reverb: I appreciate you looking through the offering plan on these taxes, and if it's there, I suppose it may be real. But if it is, those owners are gonna want to be appealing those taxes fast. $27K a year taxes on a 1 BR? I just don't understand how that's possible, even as screwy and unfair as NYC taxes are. I have a 3000 sf brownstone for which the annual taxes are $3200. And I just sold a 2200 sf loft condo in Chelsea for which the annual taxes were $11,000. Who sets these tax rates--George W. Bush?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 5:26 PM

I escaped the coop/condo scene, the more people in your space the more likely hood for problems. 400K for a studio or 800K for a 1 bed is retarded. while prices are up, renting will be more attractive. I also bought in this nabe 2 yrs ago for <500 for a 2 family. My rental pays 60% of my mortgage. it better to buy a 2 family house, in this nabe they are going for 675 to 800. taxes are lower, You can offset your mortgage with a rental, you have more space to live, and you can expand if you plan on having a few/more kids.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 6:17 PM

Anon 4:22 PM, I completely agree with you and I understand your questions. I actually find them comedic because I've been there, done that. These were the same questions that I asked myself 2 or 3 years ago when brownstones in bed-sty sky-rocketed way out of my price range. It's the same question that every salary bracket group will end up asking itself as the real estate in nyc continues on it's apparently, never-ending, upward spiral.
Don't worry, you'll get over the outrage in time and soon begin to accept the reality of the situation.
Best of luck to you. Follow your instinct. Lose the outrage, for the emotion will hinder you. 150K a year is terrific but, in new york city, that puts you solidly in the middle class bracket. Elsewhere you'd be rich and wealthy.
As far as nyc is concerned, you may need to adjust some of your expectations, whether it be the neighborhood (middle class), type of building or the size/charactistics of the house/apt that you want to purchase.
Good luck.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 6:55 PM

MisterCrabs, you can use the dob records or property shark to look up the purchaser of the duplex. Then you can schedule an interview with him, her, them to get to the bottom of the great mystery that lingers in all of our minds collectively.
Or, maybe the nytimes can spare us the agony of being in the dark on this one and do an investigative report of its own. Because we all want to know 'who are these monied, mystery buyers' and 'where are they coming from'.
Nevermind the fact that I've been asking this question for the last 3 years.
Is this purchase an anomaly or is it an indication that the market is on its way to spiking upwards again?
Your questions and outrage are valid. And maybe the best decision for you at this time is to rent. Don't be discouraged, there are always deals (rental or purchase) out there that pop up every now and then. So I would say, keep looking, you just never know what you may find. Rent if you need to.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 7:28 PM

lostinbrooklyn, anon 2:26 PM here. I wasn't judging the frame by the siding. I'm well aware of movements (interest and prices) within your neck of the woods. There are some great housing stock over there (frame house included). And the last time that I checked, rental interest in that nabe was red-hot.
The cemetary spooks me out a bit though. But I understand that many cemetaries (such as greenwood) were the equivalent of central park and prospect park back in the days (18th and 19th century?.
So I guess I could come to respect and admire the inherent beauty of the cemetary if I lived over there. It's still a bit morbid for modern day sensibilities and tastes though. But I can definitely see it's appeal for teenagers and young adults.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 7:44 PM

"But I can definitely see it's appeal for teenagers and young adults."

Yes, but what about those of us "of age" who can barely afford to live here?

Pushing 40., and still love Green-Wood. Phobia's to the cemetery does and should not dictate the real estate market. LOTS of fold who are drawn to the 'nabe by the green-space, bird sanctuary, famous NYers, National Historic Landmark status of Green-Wood as a place they want to call home. Regardless of age...

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 9:30 PM

Okay, so people trade up and move along with the market...but a studio or one bedroom is entry level, and who can enter the market at $800,000 for a very nice but not very "hip" area like Sunset Park?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 11, 2007 10:27 PM