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December 18, 2006
PACC is Wack
The future of the Bodegas space on the corner of Clinton and Fulton is of great concern to everyone we know in the neighborhood. Since the restaurant closed at the beginning of the year (in a domino effect caused by money problems and nasty landlords at Liquors), the rumors have been flying. The space is of particular importance because of its location at the gateway to Clinton Hill on a commercial stretch of road that has been crying out for improvement for years. So it was disbelief that we heard recently that the Pratt Area Community Council (which owns the building) took time out from destroying the aesthetics of the historic neighborhood to turn down an offer from a successful local business owner who wanted to open a wine bar in the space. And for what? PACC told this business owner that it had done a survey that showed residents wanted an Applebees! Yeah, right. This weekend, Clinton Hill Blog reported a rumor that PACC had recently shown the space to North Fork Bank. At least the nabe does need a bank (more than an Applebees), but, geez, turning down someone with a proven track record who wants to put an upscale establishment in this crappy stretch of Fulton? If the organization takes the credit of low-income renters and buyers, surely it can rent to a local business.
Store Rumors [Clinton Hill Blog]
Future of Bodegas & Liquors Thrown Into Question [Brownstoner]
Corner of Clinton and Fulton Up for Grabs [Brooklyn Record]
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Comments
If anyone from the Pratt Area Community Council is listening, PLEASE don't put Applebees in the former Bodegas spot! This neighborhood needs more reasonably priced, locally owned, quality restaurants (like Bodegas was).
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 11:07 AM
Probably an anti-gentrification move. You see 'upscale' amenities but those making low incomes see their ticket out of the neighborhood.
Posted by: P at December 18, 2006 11:11 AM
I have heard that PACC has refused to even hear from any one other than commercial chains. PACC will be facing a vicious fight if they try to open something so awful as Applebees or North Fork.
Posted by: Clinton Hillster at December 18, 2006 11:11 AM
Alternately, they are looking for a big payday from a chain that might pay more in rent.
Posted by: P at December 18, 2006 11:13 AM
what's the size of the bodegas space? applebees are big honking mo fo's.
Posted by: suzy at December 18, 2006 11:17 AM
I don't agree, Brownstoner. While you may think yourself about an Applebees-type place, I think the PACC may have a more finely-tuned ear on this one. The Applebees (or similar) place over in Ft Greene/Metrotech area has a line outside every night. I'm sure you'd rather have a wine bar -- and I would too -- but that doesn't make it right
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 11:19 AM
Thanks for posting this piece, Brownstoner, because this is an issue near and dear to my heart. We don't need no stinkin' Applebees over there. We already have disgusting food - Subway, McDonald's, foul and nauseating Chinese. The last thing in the world we need is an a stinkin' Applebees. We need a wine bar, we need a good local restaurant with real food, we need a bakery, we need a greengrocer. I swear to God, this is a rallying call if I ever heard one. Who the hell is Pratt Area Community Council anyway?
Posted by: donatella at December 18, 2006 11:24 AM
PACC has no idea what the neighborhood wants. Applebees would crush the neighborhood retailers.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 11:25 AM
We need a wine bar in that space like we need a hole in the head. This neighborhood needs and wants a good nail and hair salon in that location and bygod that's what we'd better get!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 11:28 AM
OK, an Applebee's is about the last thing I'd want in my neighborhood either. But it would be a little smug to assume that therefore *no one* else must want one. Because all reasonable people think just like me, right?
I bet you that if you surveyed most of the patrons of this blog, they'd tell you that another thing "no one wants" in Brooklyn is a Chuck E. Cheese. And yet look how packed to the gills the one in Atlantic Center is. Maybe not with the refined ladies and gentlemen of quality who read Brownstoner, but I doubt all the customers have been imported from outside Brooklyn.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at December 18, 2006 11:34 AM
Most have been imported from elsewhere in Brooklyn.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 11:35 AM
I don't patronize Applebee's. But this does sound a bit snobbish Brownstoner and a few anons.
You want more to appeal to your demographic and not something that appeal to a broader one.
Hear you that you wish street had more to offer but Applebee's in not BurgerKing.
Is it that you'd all be embarrassed if your friends saw one in your neighborhood?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 11:36 AM
A wine bar? Such a niche market. Why can't boozers just drink at home?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 11:45 AM
a good supermarket in the ft greene/clinton hill is sorely needed.
Posted by: ftgreener at December 18, 2006 11:49 AM
Applebee's- NOOOOO. I'm still mourning the loss of Bodega's, which, while slow on the service offered really tasty food at reasonable prices. Hello, bookstore!
Posted by: lesterhead at December 18, 2006 11:49 AM
Isn't Boca Soul a good local restaurant? Maybe it's not four stars, but they have quality food at a reasonable price. There also happen to be a couple of other good restaurants on Fulton between Washington and Grand.
Fulton could use more quality restaurants, and no one is going to argue that Applebees isn't shitty food, but who are the elitist people that think there isn't any good food on Fulton right now?
Posted by: Shahn Andersen at December 18, 2006 11:51 AM
4 yr old and 8 yr old not really welcome in the "wine" bars. Applebee's is not primo cuisine, but is certainly kid friendly -- something missing in the boutique restaurants (which deserve support by adult diners).
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 11:58 AM
Here is the long and short of it. African-Americans like to dine at chain restaurants (e.g.Red Lobster, Outback Steak, Applebee's, TGIF) because they serve affordable food and tend to be far more welcoming toward people of color perhaps due in part to the wait staff's ethnicity. Since Clinton Hill is still a black majority community, doesn't make sense that there is one restaurant to serve the needs of African-Americans? Let's face it, ain't many black people eating at Ici.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 12:01 PM
Clinton Hill has always been an AA nabe. Give the people what they want.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 12:05 PM
Forget about blue bloods and snobs and being embarrassed and everybody's hangups about "being seen". Give me a break. This isn't about that. It is about developing the area with good services and supporting local businesses that are decent. First of all, there is some good food over there on Fulton. The Country House Diner makes a good hamburger and Western Omlette. Never ate at Boca Soul. This is actually a serious issue; will we get chains over there which will squash out local entrepreneurs and good local restaurants or will this be chain land? How about a good local Italian restaurant, right THERE!!!! How about a Sylvia's for Good sake. But no stinkin' Applebees! Crap food is crap food.
Posted by: donatella at December 18, 2006 12:09 PM
No one is saying that African Americans shouldn't be able to eat in chain restaurants. However, there are better ways to approach this. If necessary, open one neighborhood like Bedstuy or Bushwick up to chain restaurants. That way, African Americans and others who enjoy that sort of thing will know exactly where they can find it. In the meantime, keep the chains out of the other neighborhoods so that those of us who do not like the chains don't have to see, hear or smell them. Fair enough?
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at December 18, 2006 12:11 PM
This is not just about applebees. Most chain restaurants serve, by far, less healthy food than local restaurants at the same price point. Also, you're fooling yourself if you imagine that Applebees or any other chain is cheaper than Boca Soul or Kush or others along Fulton. I made the awful mistake of dining at applebees last summer after I was marooned by the Q train on an oppressively hot day. I ordered conservatively, but still ended up spending $35 a person, that did not include the extra trip to the pharmacy as a result of the food.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 12:12 PM
Why are the new (white) residents of the neighborhood not supporting the neighborhood restaurants that are on Fulton Street right now?
Posted by: Meryckawick at December 18, 2006 12:13 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that was the troll CHP.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at December 18, 2006 12:13 PM
12:11 PM
Ar you suggesting some sort of restaurant apartheid? What's the tipping point? If the nabe is written up in Time Out, then no chains? If the streetscape is made up of check cashing places and pawn shops, then bring on the TGIF's?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 12:17 PM
An Applebees makes no sense in this space because there is already an Abblebees just up the road at the 1360 Fulton St.
Posted by: Dave BS at December 18, 2006 12:25 PM
I don't get it. What the area needs is a place like Bodegas? The place that just closed? Sorry, looks like that didn't work out.
I believe in a free market but after reading this thread, I HOPE PLEASE GOD that Applebees moves in tomorrow.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 12:25 PM
12:25,
Bodegas did not close for lack of customers. If you pay attention to neighborhood gossip, the whole three restaurant empire closed due to getting screwed on the rent, mismanagement and the more than 15 critical health violations.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 12:29 PM
I am sure that Applebees did studies to determine whether the location will do well, which means that people want it. Clinton Hill is not going to become Brooklyn Heights, just accept it.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 12:30 PM
Sorry to say, but my beloved Boca Soul (across from Bodegas) will be shutting down in Brooklyn and will relocate to Harlem in the Spring (according to one of the workers at the restaurant). This breaks my heart. The restaurant has only been open for 1 year and has had a bit of hardship - due to what I believe to be poor management and lack of CONSISTENT customer support.
Unfortunately, the foot traffic never seem to make it to this part of Fulton street.
The food is excellent, and I will soarly miss this place.
Posted by: CH at December 18, 2006 12:42 PM
well, chains generally have good management, deep pockets and no critical health violations. I see where the landlord is coming from
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 12:45 PM
To Merychawik and others who are somehow claiming that whites are not supporting current restaurants on Fulton, that is not true. The nice, and reasonbly priced places (Kush, Brown Betty, Joloffe, Boca Soul) all have mixed crowds from the neighborhood, so quit trying to race bait with your off the wall comments. All of those places are black owned, so the bs on this site about black people only wanting crappy fast food and whites not eating at the existing fantastic independent and black owned restaurants is just that, bs.
We need more quality independently owned and operated places to eat and hang out. Plus better groceries and other shops. If they try to put some crappy Applebees in here it will be a real loss as affordable food does not mean down market.
Posted by: lp at December 18, 2006 12:48 PM
OH NO!! We're losing Boca Soul!?!? They have the best/cheap brunch! And I love their evening menu. Sad. Don't go Boca.
Posted by: Clinton Hillster at December 18, 2006 12:52 PM
an to the person who said this area won't become brooklyn heights, well amen to that. Brooklyn Heights has more chain restaurants thatn we do in Clinton Hill and Fort Greene. We don't need no stinkin' chain restaurants.
Is there a way to petition PACC with a list of the types of amenities the community needs no Fulton Street, instead of unhealthy chain food restaurants owned by people who don't even know the area? They're really off base on what the immediate community wants here if they think Applebees is it.
On a related note, I hear the much maligned Blimpies at Fulton and Lafayette is not doing well and will likely close for lack of business.
Posted by: lp at December 18, 2006 12:55 PM
Bodegas closed because of problems at Liquors, not for lack of customers at Bodegas.
Posted by: Brownstoner at December 18, 2006 12:56 PM
Kush has a great inexpensive brunch, try there too.
I hope Boca Soul is not closing...
Posted by: lp at December 18, 2006 12:56 PM
What makes Applebees downmarket?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 12:57 PM
not that i frequent CH as a PLG rez, but i find an applebee's and a wine bar equally unappealing. does a middle ground not exist? applebee's is inherently unintersting and a wine bar is inherently annoying. i would think CHers would prefer to annoy both adjectives.
Posted by: franz fanonymous at December 18, 2006 12:58 PM
Just like the Subway on Lafayette...lol.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 12:58 PM
not that i frequent CH as a PLG rez, but i find an applebee's and a wine bar equally unappealing. does a middle ground not exist? applebee's is inherently unintersting and a wine bar is inherently annoying. i would think CHers would prefer to avoid both adjectives.
Posted by: franz fanonymous at December 18, 2006 12:58 PM
I should have said suburban and downmarket in terms of the quality of the food. You can pay comparable prices for much better food at say Kush right now. We need more of that, local business we can be proud of, not just another non-descript chain.
Posted by: lp at December 18, 2006 12:59 PM
If you split the difference between a wine bar and an Applebee's, you get a nail and hair salon. So, there's your middle ground.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 1:00 PM
very funny, whoever it is that keeps asking for another hair or nail salon... We definitely should have 3 or 4, as opposed to 1 or 2 as it is now, per block
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 1:02 PM
Does anyone else think it's funny this post is directly above "Call 1-800-GENTRIFY" Now!?
Posted by: linusvanpelt at December 18, 2006 1:02 PM
the hair and nail routine has run it's course 1:00 p.m.
Posted by: franz fanonymous at December 18, 2006 1:02 PM
Lose the race baiting, please. Bad food is bad food is bad food. We want GOOD food and delicious restaurants. Oh my God, I would be in heaven if there was a Graziella's there. Or any good local restaurant there. By the way, I didn't like Bodega's. The food was so so and they dissed my parents once, very rude. Good food is for everybody!!!
Posted by: donatella at December 18, 2006 1:42 PM
yes, the hair and nail thing is done...but if there was a hair and nail place, I hope they decide men are allowed to have a mani-pedi and I hope they have peaceful music and maybe decor that doesn't remind me of the Kmart Pharmacy in Littletown, Nebraska.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 1:49 PM
I think the hair and nail thing was a joke. There are about 300 hair and nail places in Fort Greene, Clinton Hill, for Chrissakes.
Posted by: anon at December 18, 2006 1:55 PM
...and we have a WINNER! 1:55 figured out that the hair and nail salon suggestion was meant in jest. Okay, 1:55, are you ready to play the lightening round for BIG CASH!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 2:00 PM
PACC is a joke. I used to be a donor, until they took on my deadbeat tenant as a client because she told them she felt "insecure" in her (lovely, restored garden Bstone)apt., which had a private entrance and plenty of security. No reason at all to withhold rent. If they'd investigated before taking her on, PACC might have discovered that she was a serial tenant who'd gypped everyone she'd ever rented from and always ended up in LT court, getting months of free rent before being bought out (and no, I didn't do a litigation check before renting to her, but that's the last time I made that mistake). She had also done time for assaulting a previous landlord. PACC never even inspected the place; just took her at her word that the landlord was the Evil One who refused to provide locks on her doors. So I suddenly started getting calls from PACC saying they "represented" her and wanted to "mediate." Needless to say, I read them the riot act, never donated again, and got the deadbeat tenant out after losing five months' rent.
Posted by: Anon at December 18, 2006 2:01 PM
We also heard this weekend that alot of the stores on this stretch are refusing to ante up the $80 a month for the Fulton BID. This money would be used to increase the number of trash cans, street cleaning and security.
Posted by: Brownstoner at December 18, 2006 2:01 PM
lp,
maybe pacc actually spoke to the residents of Whitman/Ingersoll Houses and they said they want casual and accessible restaurant?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 2:13 PM
okay perhaps I stand alone on this one but I think Boca Soul didn't have consistent customers because their service and quality of food was not consistent. I'd gone there a few times and they catered a Dance Africa event at BAM that JPMorgan and some other IBanks sponsored and the food was good but I've gone in there and the food was cold and even when the food is hot it takes them 45 minutes to bring it to you when more often than not you'd be the only customer in there. I think it probably is poor management because there's definitely potential so perhaps a move is much better than closing altogether. as far as what should go in this space there is an applebees in restoration plaza isn't that close enough? as much as I don't eat there I don't really have a problem with applebees but do we really need that many? I think someone mentioned a bookstore earlier and that would certainly be a good look. also, I think it was a good point to mention that the health effects of some of these food joints is the last thing the black community needs when genetically we're already screwed. how about a food exchage co-op thingy like Park Slope or a healthfood store or a decent affordable gym?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 2:14 PM
Look, I am no fan of Applebee's or (TGIF, for that matter)...but given that there is an Applebee's at Restoration, why add one here?! The thing that I love about brooklyn is that there aren't a whole bunch of chains. It consists of primarily neighborhood establishments (once you get past the fast food joints).
Alright...so who on PACC owns stock or is friends with someone at corporate headquarters?
Posted by: Bed Stuy resident at December 18, 2006 2:22 PM
I like CHP's suggestion: Allow the chains in one or two areas, but keep them out of the rest of Brooklyn.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 2:24 PM
Fulton and Clinton is 2 blocks away from the soon to be approved Atlantic Yards.
PACC has a prime opportunity to attract people to of that part of Fulton. What better way than a nationally recognized name?
Right now that area is dead. Wouldnt foot traffic help all the local businesses?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 2:31 PM
How about considering the needs of those who live in the area and pay taxes (that subsidize the affordable housing that PACC buils) ahead of people passing through for a Nets game, 2:31?
Posted by: Brownstoner at December 18, 2006 2:43 PM
Dear 2:31 PM, what is Applebee's nationally recognized for? I am really not trying to be a wiseass, but Applebee's is a chain with mediocre to awful food. It won't be good for the few surrounding restaurants. It won't be good for me and anybody who doesn't like cheese covered baked potatoes. I wonder if you get chain store corner
thing going where we get Taco bell, Chevy's, Chili's and a few other E Coli emporiums. You won't be able to recognize the menus from those in Kansas City or Little Rock or any mall.
What is the PACC outfit anyway? I hate them already.
Posted by: donatella at December 18, 2006 2:45 PM
I suppose the comment about soliciting the Whitman/Ingersoll tenants was flippant since they do not live near this location, rather near Myrtle Avenue, which has its own lack of amenities issues near the projects per the latest meetings with Tish James.
With an Applebees at the corner of Fulton and Flatbush, one going at Restoration Plaza, it appears that Applebees thinks they need a franchise outlet every few subway stops. I don't thinkg so and think the neighborhood, all of it, would benefit from an independent restaurant or other amenities.
As for the BID, I doubt that any of the businesses (eg Kush, Joloffe, Outpost, Brown Betty, Olivino, the new hair place by Olivino, the new Skin Care Spa on Fulton and Grand etc.) would object to the minimal contribution as it would help their businesses by making Fulton more welcoming for pedestrians. The only ones who would likely object would be the dirty bodegas that allow the drug dealers to ply their trade in front (probably receive payments) and who almost never sweep their sidewalks or pick up trash. Not all of the bodegas are like that, but most on this stretch, unfortunately are.
The PACC is behing the BID proposal, so they do goog things overall in my opinion. I just think they are misguided in this particular Applebees proposal.
Posted by: lp at December 18, 2006 2:49 PM
Anon 2.31, I think your idea is not without merit re the AY development, but the neighborhood of Clinton Hill could support other businesses without the proposed influx of the AY condos/offices. The proposed arena is actually pretty far away, so it would really be those who work and/or live in towers to be built across Atlantic near Vanderbilt Ave and points west.
In any event, I for one am more for the continued interal growth of the community. I thin the customer base is there for various quality (varied in price too, not all boutique expensive services) restaurants and stores.
I've said it before, and will again because I think it is important. Clinton Hill residents are a friendly crowd, new and old residents alike. The antagonism you get on this site sometimes would lead you to think differently. I enjoy living in Clinton Hill, and hope we can see a varied and mostly independent and creative resurgence of this stretch of Fulton Street. I think it is going to happen one way or the other eventually, I just hope it is more of a local owned/operated initiative than a chain store/restaurant overhall.
Posted by: lp at December 18, 2006 2:58 PM
Dear Brownstoner,
Thank you very much for posting this. I have a very proprietary interest in this little piece of the world and I intend to do everything in my tiny sphere of influence to agitate for goods and services that enhance the neighborhood and not extend the ravages of downtown Brooklyn further east. You once asked what would we do if we came into 100 million dollars to enhance the quality of life in our worlds. Everybody said very high minded things relating to education etc. and I happened to mention that I would buy as much of this stretch on Fulton street as I could and develop excellent retail services which included small Brooklyn based businesses which enhanced our quality of life. The old time residents of my block which is very close to this area told me nostalgically about how wonderful this area was once, with bakeries where you could buy a cake for someones birthday or coffee cake after Church on Sunday, a great butcher, good grocery stores. The bodega people on Clinton and Fulton know me as the lunatic woman who slams the gallon of sour milk just purchased or rotten orange and demands a full refund. I would stand up and cheer if these guys went away and a decent green grocer moved in there, selling fruits and vegetables produced within the last 6 months and or fish. How about FLOWERS?!? Anyway, suffice it to say, retail services of all kinds in that neck of the woods are pathetic and why don't we just fast foward past Appelbee's to something NICE for the good people of the neighborhood!!.
Posted by: donatella at December 18, 2006 3:11 PM
Thanks Donatella! Someone's got to speak up for the oldtimers who don't read the internet too. All the old 70 year old plus ladies on my block say the same thing.
Posted by: lp at December 18, 2006 3:14 PM
While we are talking about Fulton Street, who do we have to bribe to get the methadone clinic at the corner of Waverly and Fulton shut down? I trip over those crackheads every morning on my way to the subway to go to work.
Posted by: Meryckawick at December 18, 2006 3:20 PM
Saying that Applebee's is affordable is just wrong -- in so many cases its' processed food is more expensive than similar items at local restaurants. But I agree that it may be "more welcoming" than many of the smaller restaurants (which want ot bemore upscale), which is unfortunate. Hey Brooklyn Paper -- why don't you do an article on this? Cost of a snadwich or salad at a locally owned place compared with a chain.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 3:23 PM
"...why don't we just fast foward past Appelbee's to something NICE for the good people of the neighborhood!!"
"Good" people? Why don't you say what you mean. We all know you're talking about WHITE people.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 3:23 PM
Tish James is in the process of trying to get that clinic shut down.
By "good people of the neighborhood" I think donatella meant those who live here, not a selection of the neighborhood, anon 3.23, good lord.
Posted by: lp at December 18, 2006 3:30 PM
I just want to put the rumor to rest that Pratt Area Community Council has had no conversations with Applebee’s for our space at Clinton Avenue and Fulton Street (formerly Bodegas). There are currently two Applebee restaurants in the neighborhood at Bedford Stuyvesant Restoration and at the corner of Dekalb and Flatbush Avenues. The application for our vacant spaces at Clinton Avenue and Fulton Street (formerly Bodegas) and at Grand Avenue and Clifton Place (formerly Karrot) has been made available to our waiting list of over 100+ local entrepreneurs. We will be processing these applications in January.
PACC’s Commercial Revitalization Program facilitates commercial development opportunities on and around Fulton Street by assisting in improving the physical appearance of the commercial corridor that includes the exterior and interior of retail spaces. We provide quality technical assistance to area merchants to enhance business growth. Recruit quality businesses to the area that diversify the local retail mix. We collaborate with local business association to create sustainable improvements on the strip that include sanitation, safety and beautification initiatives and help in the sponsorship of numerous community events that promote the eclectic retail mix represented within PACC’s service area. PACC’s Commercial Revitalization Program mission has been and continues to be to set an example. PACC has 16 mix-used buildings in our catchments area of Clinton Hill and Bedford Stuyvesant that are currently rented to local entrepreneurs and organizations. We actively recruit quality businesses to the area that diversify the local retail mix and collaborate with local property owners to assist entrepreneurs in identifying affordable commercial space.
We also took North Fork Bank on a requested tour of Fulton Streets vacant spaces with the hopes of continuing our efforts of finally getting a bank in the Clinton Hill area of Fulton Street. PACC has been aggressively pursuing a bank for Fulton Street for the past two years and will continue to pursue the products and services, including conventional banking services, more sit-down and quality restaurants, video store, cosmetics, quality shoes and apparel, and quality electronics.
Posted by: Dale Charles at December 18, 2006 3:31 PM
Thanks for posting Dale. Do you work for PACC?
It's good to hear there are many local entrepreneurs interested in spaces owned by PACC on Fulton and in Clinton Hill generally.
Are actual grocery type stores (e.g. a green grocer, a bakery, fishmonger etc.) part of the services being sought too by PACC?
Posted by: lp at December 18, 2006 3:36 PM
Dear Race-Baiting 3:23,
You forgot to notice that those comments were made on behalf of "oldtimers." Maybe they are white, maybe they are black, either way, the people who live in the neighborhood have an interest in restoring and preserving the neighborhood that is entirely separate from you wanting to dine on an 800-calorie salad from Applebees. We do want local services, local amenities, and interesting shops that were once a part of the neighborhood. We live in Brooklyn because we like Brooklyn. People don't move to Clinton Hill because we are priced out of the UES. There is a very unique character to CH and much potential. We don't have to settle for sub-urban and sub-quality chains. Since when is a bakery, flower shop, or a grocer with green vegetables just a white people thing? Your comment is rude, beside the point, and utterly foul.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 3:40 PM
yes, it's a race/class issue. get over it. you live in a racist city with a bunch of people who gentrify neighborhoods and don't give a rats ass about the people who live there. white people frequent applebees too. black people go to upscale restaurants. ny mag would never have written about this 2 yrs ago because they didn't have any readers who lived in this area. when are people going to wake up and address the real issues that affect the minority residents of brooklyn, the bronx, harlem.
Posted by: ag at December 18, 2006 3:41 PM
Yes, I have been working with PACC and the Fulton Street merchants for over five years.
To answer the other question, we have requests in by many different types of services including all of the above but no chains.
Posted by: Dale Charles at December 18, 2006 3:50 PM
Oh, you just gotta love it. Sixty-eight comments into the discussion, it turns out to be all based on a false rumor. My favorite? Donatella at 2:45 -- admits she doesn't know anything about PACC, but she hates them anyway. In the mean time, exactly one person has commented on the post on the 421-a tax abatement program, something that has had far greater impact on Brooklyn neighborhoods than what retailer goes into the store at the corner of X and Y. Weblogs, the virtual circle jerk.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 4:18 PM
Dear Dale,
"I just want to put the rumor to rest that Pratt Area Community Council has had no conversations with Applebee’s for our space at Clinton Avenue and Fulton Street (formerly Bodegas)."
Sorry to be a grammar prig.... Does this mean that you have or haven't had
conversations with Applebee's?
If you haven't been speaking with Applebee's, well..... never mind, then. If you need any help giving technical advice to the merchants along this strip, particularly with the rotten food emporium on Clinton and Fulton, let me know.
And to race baiter 3:23, how do you assign a color to goodness?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 4:25 PM
Reading the string of e-mails makes me sick to my stomach.
For the stupid racists who think that only African-Americans eat at Applebees, get it straight. Since when is any racial/ethnic group homogeneous?
African-American eat at ICI, at McDonalds, at Aureole, at Lupa and KFC as do Whites.
It saddens me to see the ignorance of so many people. And why should chain restaurants be limited to neighborhods like Bed-Stuy and Bushwick? Are predominately African-American neighborhoods not deserving of quality food?
2007 is almost here and the bigotry, ignorance of some Whites is very frightening?
P.S. There are middle and upper middle class African-Americans; many of whom held the Clinton Hill community together way before many Whites "discovered" the neighborhood a la Columbus!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 5:08 PM
Bigotry exists in all races.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 5:14 PM
GREEN GROCERY PACC DO YOU LISTEN!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 5:16 PM
I love the idea that bcs there are two other Applebees, there should be no more. Those places have a line out the door every night! I'm sure the area could support a third one and they'd make a lot of money. Ever heard of Starbucks?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 5:25 PM
What happens on this blog is that there are some people who insist on injecting a race baiting element into the simplist of things, like the issue of providing good retail services for a neighborhood. It's a shame and it is malicious and intended to upset people for fun, not to accomplish anything, -- i.e. like assuming some racial dimension to the possibility of a fast food restaurant moving into the neighborhood. Also, the comments about putting fast food restaurants in Bed Sty are troll comments meant to inflame and injure people for fun. It is a shame, but yet brownstoner still exists and does a great job providing a forum for the exchange of information, including the dispelling of rumors. I also now know what PACC is. I still hope we never see an Appelbee's over there for reasons that have nothing to do with race and everything to do with FOOD.
Peace.
Posted by: anon at December 18, 2006 5:26 PM
Anon at 5.08 - ignorant bigoted jerks come in all colors - just read the comments on this blog. If you listen to them, you are a racist if you are white and don't want Applebees because that means you don't want affordable restaurants for black people; if you want Applebees and argue that it is good for lower income families you are a racist because that is "code" for saying all blacks are the same and only like Applebees and only frequent chain restaurants, not independent restaurants; if you want an independent or higher end place you are racist and/or a white or buppie elitist who doesn't care about poor people or blacks as a group. Don't give into the bs on this site. There are jerks all around with an ax to grind that will find fault with whatever you say if they want to.
Posted by: lp at December 18, 2006 5:49 PM
LP, excellent point. hey why not drop in a chinese take out? we all know that crud appeals to both rich brownstoner whites AND poor blacks alike...happy happy.
Posted by: buffster at December 18, 2006 5:58 PM
Why don't you people give it a rest. If you think that issues of race have no place in this discussion, you're kidding yourselves. The fact is that, for much of the world, Applebees is a very, very popular place to eat. The fact that some of you would look down your noses at such an establishment doesn't alter the fact that it is wanted.
And enough with the accusations of 'race baiting'. Race is involved in this. Don't deceive yourselves.
Posted by: Julio at December 18, 2006 6:01 PM
At this stage of the discussion, I'm sure absolutely no one cares that my handle was highjacked by some idiot who suggested that chain restaurants should stay in Bed Stuy and Bushwick.
Needless to say, I didn't make that remark, and whatever I would actually say on the subject has been said by others. Let's just say that chain restaurants are by definition, national,or at least regional. There are a lot of other people besides minorities eating there, or they wouldn't be in business. They provide decent, mid priced food to folks who want to eat in a sit down restaurant with real china and silverware, a jump up from other fast food. These places coin money, and have the ability to go where no one else would take a chance, such as Bed Stuy. I'm sure these decisions are based on a cost analysis, and not very much do-gooder altruism. While many here stick their noses in the air, many more enjoy the food they serve, and are happy to have them in the neighborhood. I've eaten at many fine "name" restaurants, and I've eaten at Applebees.It's good to be able to have a choice in one's neighborhood, and if one kind of place draws the other to a neighborhood, then it's a win-win for everyone.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at December 18, 2006 7:19 PM
I trust I don't even need to alert everyone to the fact that I did not make the post at 7:19PM. Our troll is back.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at December 18, 2006 7:39 PM
chp, it was noted, and the convo, as it were, moved on. Chill, babe. We know when it's you.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 8:36 PM
It\'s cool CHP. We knew 7:19 was the troll. No worries.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 18, 2006 8:39 PM
lp nailed it - someone here will question your motives no matter what point you're making. I do wish we could have less anonymous posting though. Am I the only person who wishes he knew who he was talking to and hearing from? It would be great to weed out some of the trolls and flamers.
OK, now we know we're not getting an Applebees. Whether we do or not doesn't change that Fulton Street could do with more retail development. I think the strip could support several businesses that would cater to both (insert preferred euphemisms for white and black, better and worse off, lifers and newcomers, etc.).
Maybe a wine bar isn't exactly what the neighborhood needs (Brownstoner, sometimes I think you might as well paint a target on your forehead but hey, it is your blog) but everyone would profit from decent, reasonably priced fresh and healthy food. I'd love to see someone take on Met food in the grocery business and how about an all day diner with reasonably priced and tasty food? Choice up on Grand is a breath of fresh air; how about something complimentary? It bugs me when people try to make out asking for fresh and healthy food is a race issue. How about a fresh fish store? A baker? A butcher? A greengrocer? Everyone who lives in southern Clinton Hill would profit from these businesses.
PACC, how about holding some kind of local forum on what the neighborhood needs?
Posted by: TW at December 18, 2006 10:36 PM
How about a community cooperative bakery that would provide paid and volunteer workers churning out healthy bread which is absent in practically all of Brooklyn. Black, White, Green, bread is the staff of life!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 19, 2006 8:19 AM
"It bugs me when people try to make out asking for fresh and healthy food is a race issue."
It becomes a race issue when you think that your own personal, neurotic concerns about 'health' and food should override the wishes of the entire community of Clinton Hill, which is predominantly African American. Your attitude is the height of arrogance and a clear illustration of one especially pernicious form of racism.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 19, 2006 8:21 AM
Hey Julio, people make it into a race issue because they are race-monomaniacs. Even if the community was all white, the people here not wanting an Applebees would still not want it.
This is a classist issue. People go to Applebees becuase they've seen it advertise on TV and feel safe. They understand the menu,
Posted by: loser at December 19, 2006 9:19 AM
It's both a race and a class issue because race and class are inexorably linked.
To hell with Applebees. I hope the biggest, funkiest KFC you've ever seen opens in that location.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 19, 2006 9:37 AM
PACC commissioned a survey of local residents (pretty small sample size though). The rsults can be seen here: http://www.surveymonkey.com/DisplaySummary.asp?SID=859957&U=85995739837
Posted by: TW at December 19, 2006 9:47 AM
PACC sucks. One time I had a deadbeat tenant with serious health problems in my building. I wanted to help him find another place and move on after not paying rent for over a year. I didn't want to evict him. I went down to PACC and they told me they couldn't help me because I was the landlord in this dispute. It was totally pathetic. Just because I was the landlord didn't mean I didn't want to help that guy. Eventually he ended up moving out after I took him to court and he's staying with friends. But come on. This is a property near PACC's offices and they just turned a blind eye on it because he's the tenant and I'm the landlord. Thanks a lot!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 19, 2006 10:15 AM
Lots of people living in our area below the poverty line. I bet many of them have never even been to a restaurant. Yes that's right. I know it's heretical. But I guarantee you it's true. I wish some rich donor would open up the same storefront they have in I think it's Kingston, NY, or somewhere upstate, where parents can get all the fixins for a birthday party for their kids free of charge with no questions asked. That would be a nice thing to have in our area and would truly reflect the diversity of our neighborhood and its needs. Couldn't we all give up one restaurant in order to make some kid feel special for a day?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 19, 2006 10:19 AM
A wine shop? I don't think a majority of people in Clinton Hill want a new wine shop.
I agree that this is both a race and class issue - and also understand (kinda) why white people are so reluctant to factor race into these discussions. Is it silly to suggest that an Applebees would yield more people of color in Clinton Hill than a wine store? I don't think so.
This conversation is typical gentrification fare - new people in a neighborhood trying to set up infrastructure for their own personal benefit, not that of the larger community or the life-long residents. Williamsburg is awesome - lets just open a health food store, a few bars, just just change this and change that... and before you know it, Williamsburg is not Williamsburg anymore. Keep it up, and Clinton Hill will suffer the same fate.
Posted by: Willoughby Walk at December 19, 2006 11:12 AM
Last time I checked, the USoA is largely a capitalist society. If you don't want Applebees, don't go there. If free market theories are correct, the place will get no business and shut down. Easy. Why should the government decide what business establishment gets to open? Next thing you know gays must wear blue hats and women must ride on the outside of buses. Yay facism!
Let's face it, Brooklyn is not what it used to be. Nothing will bring it back.
Why can't all you carpet baggers move back to Ohio?
Posted by: Anonymous at December 19, 2006 11:53 AM
9.37 anon:
I'm not quite sure what you mean. If you mean inextricably linked, I don't agree. Clearly, to stick to b+w, there are plenty of black middle class and white working class.
Posted by: loser at December 19, 2006 11:57 AM
The race baiting is absurd. Applebees are popular in lilly white towns too and I'm assuming the people claiming that they are so welcoming to African Americans know that they have had to settle several race harrasment and discrimination suits.
They also had to settle a suit for slipping some alcohol in a child's apple juice in the hopes of shutting him up. So welcoming to children too!
>Keep it up, and Clinton Hill will suffer the same fate.
But yet an Applebee's will keep Clinton Hill Clinton Hill? Nonsense.
This isn't far from that moron Marty's deciding that what people want is a Cracker Barrel.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 19, 2006 12:04 PM
I was referring to new people moving into a neighborhood and changing it to fit their domographic's whims, and the neighborhood consequently losing the same identity that originally brought newbies in. This isn't just about Applebees.
">Keep it up, and Clinton Hill will suffer the same fate.
But yet an Applebee's will keep Clinton Hill Clinton Hill? Nonsense.
This isn't far from that moron Marty's deciding that what people want is a Cracker Barrel."
Posted by: Willoughby Walk at December 19, 2006 12:16 PM
The community are the people who live there. All this nonsense about "people coming in" - there weren't any projects there 60 years ago, it hardly makes the people who live in projects interlopers. There seems to be an odd idea of some "static" community.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 19, 2006 12:20 PM
My white neighbor on one side has lived in Clinton Hill for sixty years. My black neighbor on the other side has lived here for twelve. According to some people's logic, the white neighbor's opinion about what the neighborhood needs has more value. According to another prevailing point of view, it doesn't matter how long you've lived in Clinton Hill unless you're black, because Clinton Hill 'belongs' to black people. Both of these arguments are utter nonsense. If you live in a neighborhood you have a right to care about what development goes on there. You have a right to be part of discussions about it with your other neighbors. You have a right to lobby for what you feel the neighborhood needs. Nobody is imposing anything on anybody. We're just talking!
Posted by: TW at December 19, 2006 12:53 PM
Anon @ 11:53 seems to have it right! - The way it works is that the LL owns the building - he rents to the store that will maximize his return (could mean the highest initial rent or could mean the 'best' tenant - up to LL);
the store will sell its goods to maximize its profits - if its popular it will stay in biz, if its not, it will fold, and so on and so on....
Clearly chain restaurants are popular - Applebees, Fridays, Dallas BBQ etc... all are packed with people, so to say they arent needed or wanted is beyond stupid. Whether this location is approriate for these type of restaurants isnt totally none of the Govt biz.
And BTW other than having fewer locations - how does Junior's really differ from any of these chain restaurants and if it doesn't then why not an anti-Juniors movement?
Posted by: David at December 19, 2006 1:14 PM
Yes, we are just talking. People who live in the neighborhood are entitled to opinions about retail services, that is what this started out to be before nasties moved in. But now since PACC is saying something in it's confused syntax -- I think that they WEREN'T talking to Applebees -- who cares about this venom soup thread. I think I might be finished with Brownstoner for a while. Yech. I wish we could sign in; most of these vicious, hateful losers would be ashamed to sign their name to their posts, or would they?
Posted by: anon at December 19, 2006 1:51 PM
But 1:14, PACC is a non-profit whose purpose is to create non-market-rate housing so the profit-maximizing-at-all-costs defense doesn't really hold water.
Posted by: Brownstoner at December 19, 2006 1:56 PM
"But 1:14, PACC is a non-profit whose purpose is to create non-market-rate housing so the profit-maximizing-at-all-costs defense doesn't really hold water."
Wow, not too bright, are you? How do you create affordable housing? Either have the government subside it (kiss your taxes goodbye) or have a portion of the tenants subside the others. Have a revenue generating retail space is a win-win. Give the consumers what they want.
I hope it will be an Applebees.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 19, 2006 2:55 PM
I am a commercial real estate broker.
Applebees probably would not be interested in the area. Too close to the Flatbush location and they look for approxiamately 6000 sq ft of space.
I am also a life long resident of Prospect Heights and walked to Brooklyn Tech every day for 4 years in the late 70s 80s from my house on Prospect Place.
PACC should read these concerned bloggers.
The neighborhood Does need affordable Groceries, not everyone can drive to the Fairway in Red Hook. Unique "Mom & Pop" retailers in many neighborhoods are going the way of the DODO bird in favor of the Starbucks/Duane Reades and the Flavor of the month Nationals like Jamba Juices.
Lets keep the substance of the neighborhood while accepting improvements to the retail strips without homogenizing our consumer experience.
Yo Brooklyn Rocks.
da chef
Posted by: chef at December 19, 2006 3:30 PM
Oh the irony. Anon 2.55 telling Brownstoner he's not too bright, and then stating that you get cheap housing if the "government subside it". I do hope Applebees subsides right under the street so we can't see it.
Posted by: loser at December 19, 2006 4:07 PM
Thank you, chef! Music to my ears. Oxygen! Yes. Bless you.
Posted by: donatella at December 19, 2006 4:21 PM
If this thread continues the way it has, my guess is that the Ku Klux Klan will want to open a recruitment center in this vacant location.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 19, 2006 4:29 PM
You want affordable restaurants/ stores????? they are all over the place here,so you poor gentleman/lady shouldn't ask for anything else, you have it already, give us a better places to shop we have money and we want quality, we dont bother you you don't bother us, happy family!
Merry Christmas!!!!
Posted by: Anonymous at December 19, 2006 4:38 PM
Not to be outdone, "Ed" comes to add a little holiday levity...
Posted by: anon at December 19, 2006 5:20 PM
On another board someone said they would want any restaurant in that area except please don't have "Soul" in the title.
Posted by: supergirl at December 19, 2006 11:26 PM
This is all fascinating. I'm the one who posted the rumor that PACC did show it to North Fork, and lo and behold, it's true. I also called Dale Charles a month ago and asked for an application for the space. She told me there were 90 people ahead of me, but that they would review all the apps soon, so I asked her to send me one. She told me to email her, and I did, twice, asking for the app. I never got one... So I gave up. I'm sure there are many other people who had ideas for this space and were ignored, or will be ignored.
Posted by: Clintoncentric at December 20, 2006 9:00 AM
Sorry for the ironic comment. Still, my momentary brain fart is slightly excusable, while failure to grasp simple public policy is not.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 20, 2006 1:10 PM
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