Open House Picks: Townhouses

Clifton is a piece of crap. What is going up next door? I think $ 1.2 mil. has it.. Cheap reno..

Posted by: Anonymous at December 8, 2006 2:12 PM

Clifton Place is a nice block, awesome area. I kind of like the stainless steel kitchen. The other kitchen is depressing as hell, and I hate all those bars on the windows but I guess that's standard.

St. James is horrid.

South slope is a boring location.

Bed stuy -- MORE PICS PLEASE!

Posted by: Anonymous at December 8, 2006 4:21 PM

We saw the Clifton place last weekend. It's a weird property. There's an extension on the first two floors (including the kitchen in the photo), but there are no windows on the rear portion. There are windows on the east side, but that's the side that will get blocked once a building goes up in the neighboring lot. There's no access to the back yard through the building -- you have to walk around the building through the vacant lot, which is problematic and bizarre. There is a nice deck for the top floor unit, but you have to climb through a window to get onto it. It does have some good potential but needs work.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 8, 2006 4:34 PM

Sorry, meant to say extention on the first *three* floors.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 8, 2006 4:36 PM

I know how many on this blog talk as though Brooklyn Brownstones are so different/unique in the way prices have escalated.
Well here is a south Bronx open house and to me seems just seems quite comparable (if not higher) if you account for size, condition and 'less than upscale' neighborhood.

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=923318

Posted by: Anonymous at December 8, 2006 4:57 PM

Yes, but do people want to live in the south bronx?

Posted by: Anonymous at December 8, 2006 4:59 PM

No.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 8, 2006 5:04 PM

Anon 4:59 - I am sure you did not intend your statement as a joke, but your post got me laughing out loud.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 8, 2006 5:08 PM

The 16th Street house is on a block with several huge construction projects; it's across the street from the one that was featured earier today (shoddy construction/mezzanines, angry neighbors) and right next to another big building (that's what's protruding on the right side of the picture). The block is a mess.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 8, 2006 5:11 PM

Still Clifton Place looks like a bargain to me at its current price. Look at all the brownstones priced much closer to $2,000,000 in Fort Greene. Are they really worth that much more?

Posted by: Anonymous at December 8, 2006 6:58 PM

I just checked in Property Shark and another house sold on Clifton for more and seems much smaller. So the comps are good for it.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 8, 2006 7:00 PM

I love the text for the agent pumping up the Clifton house. Come to this great area NOT... The only people who go there are folks who can't afford anything in the South Slope and Fort Greene. This is the area that first gets pounded when the market tanks.. The new broker took it for the same price that Corcoran could not sell it for. It is a dump. I agree it is way overpriced

Posted by: Anonymous at December 8, 2006 9:52 PM

10:05 -- 16th Street is a pretty unpleasant place to be for small houses right now. Most of the block is being redeveloped into multi-family housing -- some of which looks a lot better than some of the other shlock going up in the borough. The neigghborhood is great in terms of amenities, but, personally, it it's a house I'm after, I would look on other blocks.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 8, 2006 10:28 PM

Anon at 9:52 pm - I am curious, where do you live?

Posted by: Anonymous at December 9, 2006 12:16 AM

16th Street block is not "bad" but there is a LOT of construction right now -- I wouldn't want to move there till most of that is over. It's also a very ugly block with a crazy mishmash of big ugly new buildings and little frame houses with hideous siding.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 9, 2006 11:17 AM

All of you folks that are sleeping on the outer areas of Clinton Hill are truly sleeping. The next neighborhood is Bed-stuy for sure. Clifton Pl is a winner and that neighborhood is not going to be the same in five years. Look at Ft Greene. When I went to brooklyn tech back in the day, you never found yourself in that park. You went west from school. You went to subway and got the hell out of there. Now look at the number 2.4m and climbing if you have any view of that park
Grow up, your stuck

Posted by: Anonymous at December 9, 2006 12:28 PM

Now I think $2.5m would be a steal for a done house parkside in Fort Greene! Are there any on the market in that price range in all of Fort Greene that are truly done I wonder?

Posted by: Anonymous at December 9, 2006 3:33 PM

Who is that Corcoran agent that had that listing before? I'd love a psychic broker of my very own.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 9, 2006 4:21 PM

...speaking up frequently at your monthly police precinct's community council meetings, contacting Tish James' office, contacting the Clinton Hill Association and your block association and asking them to lobby Tish James' office for you, e-mailing the mayor via nyc.gov, and the police comissioner. Also I would hire a good landlord-tenant attorney, and possibly also a private investigator to do some surveillance if need be. If you focus on this problem you will solve it. I have lived on mulitiple blocks in Brooklyn that have drug trade. It's annoying but never been threatening to me, but it would totally bug me if I was their landlord. Eventually they screw up somehow and get hauled off to jail, or worse.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 9, 2006 7:33 PM

I guess it's much better to rant and rave on brownstoner than to try to do anything about a problem that obviously concerns you deeply. I know many people on this block and I've never heard them complain about this stuff. I do hear people on FG Park complaining about all sorts of goings on their block (noise, trash, drugs, holdups), but there was nothing but cheerleading Washington Park on this site about the houses on that stretch. Whatever. It's a big city. I find more strange people on this blog than in real life to be honest.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 9, 2006 9:40 PM

I am just sick of people who don't know the real story about things going on these blogs and acting as if they do. And probably these are people who have some sort of agenda anyway for better or worse. If you read the Park Slope Paper's crime blotter you will be shocked at how dangerous Park Slope really is...or is it? I've never heard of anybody I know getting mugged, or heard of drive by shootings in Fort Greene, Prospect Heights, Clinton Hill. I actually do know somebody who was mugged in midtown last week though. Okay, maybe muggings happen everywhere. But are people really scared of drive by shootings in Brooklyn? No. But on here it's ridiculous. And slanderous about entire neighborhoods.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 10, 2006 8:41 AM

I lived on Clifton Place for almost 30 years, and I can tell you this block has improved tremendously. That is because there were a group of caring individuals that lived on the block. There are a group of new owners now, and their agenda is different from the people before. The older group were trying to improve the block by trying to get rid of the unsavory characters that hung out in the street. Every avenue was tried including going to the 88th precinct through multiple captains, the Brooklyn district attorney and local do nothing politicians. Nothing was ever done and even though things improved but the hoodlum from our block remains. The newer people especially the so called president of the block association is only concern with having block parties and will not acknowledge any problems. Until the people in this block wake up, the problems on Clifton Place will not go away, that is until the families that are involved in the illegal drug trade move out. We all know who they are and which houses they are in!

Posted by: Anonymous at December 10, 2006 2:30 PM

What planet are some of you guys from? Yes, Grand and Clifton Place is a bit menacing, but it's actually gotten substantially better over the years.

There is a bad vibe, but to hear some describe it you would think it's an open-air drug market with gun-toting troublemakers everywhere. It's not. I doubt any of the fearmongers posting here regularly even walk around the area.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 10, 2006 6:17 PM

It is obvious from the comments that drugs are a problem here (Clifton). The statements seem sincere. Reduce the price $200,000 and maybe there will be a taker. What re broker would take this listing at this price with major drug problems and a buildable lot next door? A fool..

Posted by: Anonymous at December 10, 2006 7:09 PM

Didn't Corcoran have this listing at the same price? What is the name of that agent that had it at Corcoran?

Posted by: Anonymous at December 10, 2006 7:56 PM

Jerry Minsky

Posted by: Anonymous at December 10, 2006 8:16 PM

To the owner: this is a discussion board about brooklyn real estate, and your house is the subject of a thread regarding your listing. Unkind of you to characterize a civil discussion as a never ending lunatic argument. Drugs are of no little concern to someone paying 1.5MM for a house.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 11, 2006 6:27 AM

To anon 5:28. You are the one who is emotionally disturbed if you think living with criminals is such a joy. You are probably one those that are hanging out there with the hoodlums and a nerve is hit!

Posted by: Anonymous at December 11, 2006 9:55 AM

I lived on Clifton near that very corner. My honest opinion is as follows:
1. The only way to eliminate the drug trafficking is buy replacing some of the residents on or near that immediate location. There are families that have lived there for many generations that will not be going anywhere. I am sorry but the 88th is not going to improve the situation beyond ensuring that the number of shots fired or killings decrease. Outside of that ….all Hale to the Weed Smokers as smoking in public seems to be encouraged.
2. From purely a financial perspective I think the property value will significantly climb in the next 5-10 years as the number of people desiring the Clinton Hill area increases, public transportation remins very accessible, and its mere proximity to downtown. It’s far enough away from downtown yet close enough to walk, bus, or take a short train ride too.
3. From a family perspective I think it is a great location as it is sandwiched in-between Bed Stuy and Clinton Hill proper or Fort Greene. It would be a perfect situation for someone who desires a diverse neighborhood and does not want to be completely subjected to gentrification to feel like your neighborhood is safe place to live. At the moment, if you observe the corner of Grand and Clifton on any day for 3 hours you will definitely see upstanding citizens who represent a positive transformation of the neighborhood and those who are the definitely the cancer of the of teh movement.
Okay 1 may ask…Why did U move. The answer is simply:
1. I moved because I could not stomach the chaos that unfolded before my eyes every day. It felt like entering a war zone as soon as I came out of the Classon Ave. train station. If I decided to take the train to Clinton Ave. the walk home was okay until I hit the corner of Grand and Clifton.
2. Financially I determined that my monthly obligations did not match up to the quality of life my family and I were experiencing. As a new proud owner of a brownstone surviving an extensive renovation project I simply lost it. Every day I came home from work I witnessed the nonsense that transpired on these blocks and immediately thought to myself DAM….I spend endless hours at work to pay for this…ah Hell No…its not worth it.
3. My dream of seeing the neighborhood turn around in 2+ years was just that …A DREAM. After attempting to thwart the nonsense by personally talking to some of my neighbors i.e. the drug dealers, the users, and some of the youth.... I quickly came to the conclusion that this environment is not going to change in the very near future. After witnessing/participating in the Tish talks, frequently calling and visiting the 88th precinct, and personally coaching some of the offenders…the result for me was to simply get out of the neighborhood when the first opportunity presented itself. As a result, my initial long term investment which made my stomach turn each and everyday ended up in me taking advantage of the housing market and getting the hell out of dodge.
Bottom Line – If you can stomach the non-violent crimes i.e. drug use, the endless noise and traffic on that corner during the summer, the crack heads constantly asking for change, the occasional burglary once or twice a year (hope you are not the victum..as I had 2 very bad experiences)..I say lay down 1.1M - 1.3M on this property and hope for the best. If your objective is to make money I think you are safe. If you have a family note that your offspring can go 1 of two ways…they can grow up to become a upstanding citizen to society Or become a recipient of government programs like rehab, subsidized housing, public assistance, etc. Be advised that your kids will be influenced by those in there immediate surroundings because they will not be in the house 24/7. Everyone gets to know who you are as you will frequently be walking and patronizing some of the establishments in the neighborhood. The guy you will end up saying hello to everyday (believe me there is going to be someone out there everyday or night as you pass on your way to work, to your car, or the store) is going to ask u a million questions like…I am glad u moved in the neighborhood, where r u from, anything to make small talk before he asks you for change… may have a brother, sister, niece, or nephew who is going to sell/offer drugs to your kid …or your kids friends…or will rob someone who came to visit you sooner or later. Remember these people have occupied this area for generations….they are not going anywhere unless govt. subsidies are revoked. Race does not matter in this case. These folks slogan is …U leave me alone and I will leave U alone. We can co-exist just fine if you obey these simple rules. If u don’t expect hell to break loose. To me hell was already there everyday…… I didn’t obey the rules….and after too much I lost the battle by leaving because I refused to deal with it anymore. I could not stand living in that environment.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 11, 2006 3:25 PM

a couple of thoughts.

i own a house in the neighborhood and walk by clifton and grand almost daily. i never fear for my safety and while there may be illegal activity, it's not as menacing as some describe (IMHO). it's a concern though.

choice, grand 275, and dakar have all generated a lot of positive foot traffic in the neighborhood over the past few years. i think it's made things safer.

the house in question is an interesting property. it's narrow, but it has an extension which probably compensates for it's narrowness. it's missing some original detail and i think the fireplaces have been closed.

on another thought. i went and saw the open house over the weekend. i continue to be disappointed in the quality of real estate brokers in the area. for a 6% commission (or at least a share of what the agency takes), they should know more about the house. this time, the agent didn't know when it was built. ridiculous. this is an intimidating and significant investment and it appears that they only thing some agents know is how to open the door and let people in.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 11, 2006 4:14 PM

I remember speaking to you and your family at length about the house and to your parents about where they live in Richmond, VA. I thought you guys were so nice. I told you that often the city records don't have the exact dates the houses were built and that I could check on this and get back to you if I found out the exact date. I told you when houses of this era were built generally in the neighborhood though. You hadn't signed in to the open house sheet though because you said you weren't really interested in buying a place, you and your extended family just wanted to look around and you did for quite some time as I recall, you even wanted to see the tenant's apartments and it was only when you were upstairs checking out their apartment that you told me that you didn't really have any interest in buying a property you just liked keeping an eye on what's on the market and so I didn't realize that you really needed this additonal information. Next time if you have questions about a property I would of course be happy to help you further with any additional information. I know your father, or was it your father in law, from seemed very interested in history of homes in general and we talked for a bit about where they live. I don't think the lack of knowledge off-hand about the year a specific house was built illustrates lack of concern about somebody's significant investment though. I'm sorry that you feel otherwise. Often times the only way to find out the very exact date a house was built is to do a great deal of extensive research based on ancient city tax records and tax lot maps from centuries ago. At least that is my experience. The city records usually just dump out generic dates for some reason or other. I guess I could have just given you that simplistic answer, but I gave you the honest and complete answer about homes in this area.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 11, 2006 11:55 PM

Agree with above poster. Owner and agent are way out of line in posting here. The owner is trying to sell something for 1.5MM dollars. The agent is trying to make a 6 percent commission off of this. We're supposed to take what they say seriously? And as for the agent identifying a potential buyer on this board, well the agent should be fired for this unprofessional behavior. Unbelievable.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 12, 2006 7:55 AM

Brownstoner is right. People have the right to defend themselves. How utterly ridiculous to say otherwise.

signed,
not the seller, not the broker, not the buyer

Posted by: Anonymous at December 13, 2006 7:03 PM