Open House Picks: Townhouses

The Bergen St property is too close to Atlantic Yards

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 12:24 PM

AY wouldn't bother me on Bergen....the minus is opposite side of Bergen isn't residential...factories, garages, etc.
But this row of houses is great and otherwise convenient location. Great deal for someone. Sounds like estate sale - so maybe opportunity for lower price.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 12:55 PM

The Willow St. property is pretty, but I thought the floor plan was awkward: small kitchen; strange half wall behind dining room; "guest room" on 2nd floor can only be accessed thru the master bedroom & only bath on that floor is thru master bedroom; two bedrooms on 3rd floor, but the one bath can only be accessed thru the south bedroom.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 1:00 PM

Noticed the same about he Willow Place house. looks like a multiply family that got a so-so conversion. BTW, this house is NOT on Willow Street (as the previous poster stated), big difference, which makes me wonder about the almost $4 million price. Seems a bit high for this section of BH (below Joralem, close to the BQE, above the subway lines).

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 1:08 PM

Willow pl house is nice (used to live on the block), but lots of houses on the street are crappy rent stabilized, the roar of the bqe is deafening (not to mention the dirt/crap that comes from it), there is a giant subway exhaust fan building across the street, school on the block is annoying, zero parking nearby, no shopping nearby, etc.

Why anyone would pay 3.8 for this over the 3.2 on clinton (for a bigger house), I have no idea.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 1:25 PM

The Bergen Street house looks like my grandfather's house did when he died at 84. My grandfather hadn't done anything to his house for the last 20 years he was alive. He didn't freshen the paint and still used his rotary telephone.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 1:33 PM

The Bergen Street house looks like my grandfather's house did when he died at 84. My grandfather hadn't done anything to his house for the last 20 years he was alive. He didn't freshen the paint and still used his old rotary telephone.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 1:33 PM

A professional brokwe should not get defensive and post here.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 1:44 PM

Sylvia, you've got great taste. I think all of this 200K to renovate a house really strips away its character and charm. I'm not talking about sagging floors, lead paint or other dangerous situations. But what's wrong with living with an old kitchen. Many of the custom renovations applied to these old houses are just as bad as stripping away the weathered beauty of a copper dome tint with the original bright, shiny, metallic, copper hue). The building loses something in my opinion.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 1:52 PM

Couldn't agree more re: broker's defensiveness. This is a free forum, and people are going to say what they will. You just look petty and unprofessional when you respond with that tone.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 1:52 PM

So ayarrington, what you are saying is that the seller determined the price (do you at least agree that it is reasonable). If not, why did you take the listing?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 1:53 PM

5th Street: oh please. Just because it has a window, a room measuring 7'8 x 6'1 is not a 'bedroom'. If you look at how the doors swing in from the hallway and the big bedroom, I'll bet you can't even squeeze a crib into that space. I wonder how much original detail was lost with those ridiculous choppy little partitions between the living rooms, dining rooms and dens. Blech.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 1:53 PM

As crappy as all these listing are, I think that there are buyers for all of them - it is all a matter of price. They are all grossly overpriced (I won't comment on Hancock since I am not as familiar with the nabe). I mean what are these sellers smoking. None of these properties have anything to reccomend them, yet they are asking for premium prices. Willow Place is in the crappiest part of BH (and I LOVE this nabe - so that is saying a lot). 5th Street looks like bad tenement. I wont even comment on Bergen.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 2:08 PM

"However, IMO, at that point it's actually much cheaper to rent a floor-thru in a brownstone without the headaches of being a landlord"

Or buy a brownstone condo/coop.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 2:46 PM

Listings #2 & #3 are the only decent values. The one thing going for #3 is it's historical significance but B. Ratner has seriously hindered it's value. Unless luck prevails, it'll go for $750K to $800K. Corcoran's $1.35M 4-story, 20-footer #839964 on Carlton is still sitting, no?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 3:02 PM

Actually 2:43 that is a pretty nice block in Bed-Stuy. Anyway, remember the shooting one block from the primest of prime Fort Greene blocks about three weeks ago? And another about three months ago? Get a grip.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 3:23 PM

"I don't think the BedSty is in a nice part. Malcom X Blvd is not nice - dangerous, killings, etc. "

Can someone please tell me how many white people have been killed in Bed-Stuy in the last 1, 2 and 5 years? Is the fear of being white and getting gunned down in the "hood" real or unfounded? Are local gangsters killing whites or is this just hype - a non-threat? I was under the impression that gangsters were mostly killing each other in isolated areas; like they do in Fort Greene, Vinegar Hill, Carrol Gardens, Boerum Hill, PLG, etc. I'm asking because I'm currently in the market for a brownstone (around $700k) and it is one of the neighborhoods of interest. How do people in the above listed neighborhoods deal with this issue? Some people appear very fearful of living in fringe neighborhoods while others do so quite easily and happily.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 3:56 PM

I love it when people say That house is great because of a old kitchen sink. Which you could get for your own place for about 500 bucks. Then you would not have to spend 1,5 million. Gee. This is crap housing for 1.5 smackeroos. What a joke. I can't believe real estate agents take a fee for selling overpriced junk. How can you sleep at night.? It's embarrassing really.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 4:09 PM

Anon 3:56,

Kindly provide proof that you know the race of the posters you are criticizing.

I'm sure I'll be waiting for a very long time.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 4:16 PM

"Anon 3:56, Kindly provide proof that you know the race of the posters you are criticizing.

I'm sure I'll be waiting for a very long time."

Huh? What are you talking about? I didn't criticize anyone. I'm just looking for some guidance on the issue. If my tone was critical or offensive to anyone then I certainly apologize. Wow....

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 4:23 PM

3:56, a few things:
1. Differnt people have different levels of tolerence for "fringe" life. Hang out in areas and see how it feels.
2. In my experience, having lived in such an area, the problem is not the "safety" issue as much as it is the general noise, street life, and lack of so-called amenities. Some people enjoy it or at least don't mind it. Others hate it. (I hated it).
3. In my personal opinion, anyone who has a budget of around 700K and who wants more than a small 2 bedroom should not buy in Brooklyn or anywhere else in the city. Nothing you can afford will be that nice or be in a nice area--you won't be happy and it will never appreciate as much as what you can buy elsewhere. Don't be a slave to fashion--look elsewhere.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 4:54 PM

Anonymous at 4:54 -- so you're saying that anyone with a budget of 700k should either live in a small apartment or leave New York City altogether? WFT? You mean like the 'burbs? I'd rather live in Bed Stuy, thank you very much. Just because you hated living in a borderline neighborhood doesn't mean everyone else does. You don't know what will make someone else happy so STFU.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 5:35 PM

But look to where? If you are married with three kids, enjoy the diversity and excitement of urban life and want an easy work commute to Manhattan, where else would you look to buy? The Bronx? Queens? Statan Island? Jersey City? Hoboken? Despite the fact that Brooklyn is presently very hip and trendy, we are considering the borough because its relatively affordable. We are not rich. We have enough for a 10% downpayment but can't support a $630k mortgage on our own. Brownstone living, i.e., 3 to 4 family buildings, provides ample rental income to assist us with monthly mortgage payments. At the same time we are betting that as the city continues to grow and move south into Brooklyn, this would only enhance the desirability of living in a brownstone neighborhood (established or fringe) and put upward pressure on property values. The way we see it we can get more bang for our buck in Brooklyn in terms of quality, size and a favorable financial set up (rental income). From what I understand, it's extremely difficult to find a quality townhouse in an "established" neighborhood and have your tenants pay your entire mortage with just 10% down whereas in the "fringe" neighborhoods prices are still low enough to make the numbers work. Is this true? Is my broker misleading me? Further, if the gentrification of Brooklyn continues at its current pace, in ten years we will find ourselves in a great neigborhood with more amenities, lower crime and better schools.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 5:49 PM

Anon 5:35-- Do the words "in my personal opinion" not make sense to you? As for your comment "Just because you hated living in a borderline neighborhood doesn't mean everyone else does," that is why I said "Some people enjoy it or at least don't mind it. Others hate it." Seems pretty clear to me that my post was expressing my experience and my opinion. Why so defensive, not to mention rude and offensive? So, no I won't STFP, but you can go F yourself.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 5:51 PM

5:49: As a 46 year-old life-long Brooklynite, I endorse your enthusiasm. But the statement "in ten years we will find ourselves in a great neigborhood with more amenities, lower crime and better schools" strikes me as extremely niave. Middle class white professionals started moving into areas like Fort Greene in the 60's and gentrification proceeded in fits and starts. It may seem like things just magically appeared in the past few years, but what you see now is the result of 40 years of effort. Real change can take a long time--just look at areas like BS and PLG, which have long had an established middle-class population, but still have crime issues and poor amenities and schools. Not to mention that prices in most fringe brownstone areas have declined in the last year. Will they go back up? Eventually, sure. But who knows when or how much. If you're really in it for the very long haul, go for it. But if you expect the bounty of gentrification in 10 years, don't bet on it.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 6:23 PM

I've seen the Bergen Street house and though the facade is nice the inside is awful....I agree with the 600K price!

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 6:28 PM

As someone who just sat on a jury of a Bed Stuy murder, its apparent that the people who live in those areas are clearly unaware of just how dangerous and common the shootings are.

If you are aware of the situation and dont mind, then thats great for you. I am happy to see those areas improving as the years past and I applaud the people who are willing to wait it out. And I have no doubt everyone living in the more sketchy areas made good financial investments. But I wouldnt want my children having to deal with it for my financial benefit.

And for those hipsters that think the only "affordable" areas in Brooklyn are Bed Stuy, etc.., you must look at a map. Check out Bay Ridge, Kensington, etc... All good areas with some beautiful old homes but less of the chic factor.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 7:38 PM

No, I'm not that naive. I don't expect things to be easy, smooth and function in a straight line. Of course, there will be hard times, second guessing and perhaps some deep regrets. But in the end I firmly believe that this is a bet worth placing.

As for gentrification in Brownstone Brooklyn, in my opinion it will continue to spread like wild fire. I don't see how it can't. When my husband and I stroll through certain parts of Bedford Stuyvesant, we are amazed by the sheer beauty of the homes and tree lined streets. We did the house tour this fall and it was absolutely amazing. Granted the neighborhood is not where I would want it to be (clearly if it was I couldn't afford it) but I figure that I'd be getting in low enough not to mind the minor inconvenience of not living in the safest neighborhood or one with top notch amenities and services.

I'm also comforted by the fact that Bedford Stuyvesant is primed for massive turnover. Unlike homeowners in Dumbo, Park Slope, Boerum Hill, etc, homeowners in Bedford Stuyvesant are not young people; newly arrived and looking to settle down for the next 30 years. To the contrary, they are very very senior: middle class African-American homeowners who are current or former local business owners and public and civil servants, e.g., teachers, principals, police officers, firemen, bus drivers, city and state employees, etc. These homeowners bought their brownstones for a song 20-40 years ago, have no mortgage (or very little) and are increasingly looking to sell. Bedford-Stuyvesant homeowners are no longer oblivious to what their homes are worth and many are now taking the money and running - as homeowners in Fort Greene, Clinton Hill and Prospect Heights did in mass in the late 1990s. To many of these homeowners who live on modest income, it's like hitting the lottery. What are they doing? They are selling? In my personal opinion, this trend will continue unabated in Bedford Stuyvesant for the foreseeable future; even in a slow or down market.

Further, once one of the large real estate firms get wise enough to open an office in the neighborhood, preferably near a train station with a lot of foot traffic (e.g., Nostrand, Kingston and Utica), look out. Nothing makes homeowners (many of whom do not have computers at home) more eager to sell then seeing where other homes in the neighborhood are being offered for or sold. Look what happened to Fort Greene after Corcoran set up shop on Lafayette eight somewhat years ago. Yes, the internet can attract buyers but in fringe neighborhoods it takes physical presence to bring out the sellers.

I know that some of you might think that my husband and I are taking a big risk, but again, we are not rich. We have slightly over 100k to work with and we need to place the right bet. I'm hoping that the right bet is in either Bedford-Stuyvesant or Crown Heights North. If we are right, we will have our mortgage note subsidized by rental income, increase our savings over time, build equity and perhaps be in a position to afford an investment property nearby in a few years and provide our family with a better future.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 8:08 PM

My parents bought three houses in clinton hill in the 80s as investments. To put it mildly, we got killed, and the guy in the bodega next to two of them actually _did_ get killed.

In years where NYC's pop expands faster than construction in the core NYC/bklyn nbhds, bed-stuy/CH experience incredible upswings. In years when the economy isn't doing so well and all the hipsters go back to the midwest, rents and prices crash.

I still remember hunting for dumpsters at midnight in the pouring rain in december with our ex-tenant's moldy furniture balanced on the roof of our car (not tied down) so we could chuck it without getting shotgunned.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 9:23 PM

"I'm also comforted by the fact that Bedford Stuyvesant is primed for massive turnover."

At all weirded out by the fact that you're buying in the hope that all your neighbors will move?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 9:47 PM

Oh this again. The truth of course lies somewhere in the middle. Some areas have changed dramatically in the past 10 years and some haven't. We bought in PLG 7 years ago and have been quite happy. Has the area changed in those 7 years? Not really, no. It is a great place, as it was then, but our assumption that stores and restaurants would come, and that drug dealers and loiterers would leave, have not been fullfiled. We are thrilled to have a new coffee house and soon a restaurant, but honestly when we bought we expected to have a lot more here by now. And the things that really bother us haven't changed at all. My point is that you should like the area you are moving to as it is. It may change over time, but it may take a lot longer than you expect.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 11:40 PM

No. I never said all. Just some. "Turnover" is good for an up and coming neighborhood; otherwise it would never change. Was it not "turnover" that revived and elevated former depressed and neglected neighborhoods like Prospect Heights, Carroll Gardens, Fort Greene, and Clinton Hill to new heights? That's precisely my point. Demographic shifts are important to a neighborhood's continued growth and development. Posters on this blog often make a clear distinction between "established" and "un-established" or "fringe" neighborhoods and the distinction is often based on the extent to which a neighborhood has been gentrified. The more gentrified the neighborhood, the more desirable it will be to higher income people. Further, are we not talking about the predicted effects of gentrification which is defined as "the buying and renovation of houses and stores in deteriorated urban neighborhoods by upper- or middle-income families or individuals, thus improving property values but often displacing low-income families and small businesses."? Like it or not, "turnover" is an essential part of the equation. For better or worse? Who knows? Only time will tell.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 6:48 AM

Well PLG is a different animal. Change there has been slow because the sheer lack of middle income renters. The neighborhood's single family home zoning restriction separates the neighborhood into essentially two camps: (1) higher income single family homeowners and (2) lower income renters in large surrounding buildings. The low income people far outnumber the middle to high income people in the area and this ratio is going to be very difficult to change going forward. In other neighborhoods without such zoning restrictions, gentrification is born out of 3-4 family townhouse owners attracting higher income tenants to the area. It is the attraction and growth of the higher income homeowner and tenant segment which propels a neighborhood forward.

PLG needs the displacement of lower income people to become truly gentrified. Yes, new and wealthier families are moving into the neighborhood but they are simply replacing other middle to high income residents of single family homes. So there really isn't any up tick in the demand in the neighborhood for better quality goods and serves; conversely, there isn't a downtick in some of the negative aspects of the neighborhood as well.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 7:18 AM

this site has officially jumped the shark

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 9:07 AM

gentrifyordie.com

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 9:46 AM

Anon 9:07, I counldn't have said it better. I am truly appalled.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 10:30 AM

What Anon. 7:18 writes about middle class buyers only replacing similar residents in PLG was true for many years and was the main reason for the very slow rate of change, BUT in the last few years there has been a VERY noticable increase in the number of middle class people both renting and buying co-ops in the nabe's apartment buildings on Hawthorne St. Lincoln Rd., Ocean Ave., etc.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 10:34 AM

As a PLG resident, I agree with what 10:34 says regarding Ocean Ave and Lincoln, though it is only VERY noticeable to those of us who live here. Nonetheless, the basic issue that 7:18 points out is still VERY much true and will continue to be. Even if Ocean, Lincoln, and other streets with large buildings change, it will take eons for the buildings on Flatbush and the western side streets to change, so the low-income population will continue to far surpass the middle/upper income population, and there will still be a demand for those stores catering to the low income population as well as all of the negative issues related to drugs, hanging out, etc. The increase in middle income renters and owners that 10:34 writes about has had no impact on the general quality of life issues in the area. I and most of my neighbors accept the fact that life in PLG isn't going to change for an extremely long time. We accept the neighborhood as it is, and we enjoy it for what it is. For the record, I also wrote the 11:40pm post.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 12:10 PM

10:34 here. Change will be slow here (which IMO is NOT a bad thing) but the addition of a significant number of middle class apartment owners and renters will, together with brownstone owners, likely provide a base for an improved mix of stores and services. The soon to open Enduro restaurant on Lincoln is an example

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 12:55 PM

"Anon 9:07, I counldn't have said it better. I am truly appalled."

Appalled at what? Give us a break. Please get a thicker skin, Ralph Tresvant (Mr. Sensitivity). The 7:18 poster didn't criticize or condemn the nabe. He or she just pointed out obvious facts as to why change PLG has been slow to change. PLG is one of my favorite nabes and every year it changes for the better. It's a great community and most Brooklynites know this fact.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 1:03 PM

Wow a Ralph Tresvant reference. Nice.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 1:24 PM

Nice CHP! Haahahaha!! LOL!!
Great post!

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 3:33 PM

Right on, CHP. Well said.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 5:14 PM

I'm genuinely curious - when people say XYZ community was kept from total annihilation by African-Americans, why are those same communities still so unappealing in terms of safety & schools?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 7:32 PM

Checkmate1

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2006 2:22 AM

Re: Anon 7:32
I have lived in PH for 25 years and will try to explain based on my knowledge of these nabes (although it is complex that it could be the subject of a whole book.) Blacks, like whites, are not all the same. In these neighborhoods (PH and BS being good examples) many of the homes were owned by solid middle class families, many originally from the West Indies. These people form the core and give stability to these communities, taking care of their homes and supporting institutions like churches, etc. Going back to the 60's Bed Stuy was shorthand for a ghetto neighborhood, but in fact it was always considered by those who were knowledgeable as far safer and more stable than say Bushwick or East New York. On the other hand poverty, drugs etc. brought down many other people who do contribute to crime and other negative aspects which affects these minority neighborhoods so there is crime, and the schools may not be at middle class standards. Remember that to many whites, any community that has a significant black population will be associated with 'crime' and 'drugs' regardless of the reality and likewise, they may be hesitant to send their kids to a largely minority school. So I think the answer to your question is based on some reality and somewhat on (white) people's perceptions and racial preferences, rather than fact.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2006 9:21 AM

Is being safer than East New York a real distinction now? Give me a break. Bed Stuy is cheaper than more "established" areas b/c it is not as safe. No one is suggesting there be a mass exodus or there is anything wrong with living there. Level of acceptable safety is a personal choice and we all make a choice of compromising that somewhat by living in New York and then choosing a particular area. That said, potential buyers should do their research and not be fooled into believing there is no difference between Bed Stuy and Park Slope b/c of unethical real estate agents and neighbors who are fooling themselves.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2006 12:34 PM

Anon 12:19,

You shoud read the above postings more carefully.

Of course, if you bought in the 80's and kept till now, you've done well. Everybody knows that.

Most people don't live in the same house there entire lives because they like change.

I love my place too, but if I'm still here in five years, it would be very sad.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2006 2:09 PM

Brownstoner, please highlight this weekend's Barron's article on the resilence of the high end luxury real estate market. It's a great read and counters what many people believe to be true. No doom and gloom in this segment of the marketplace. I hope Manhattan prices continue to go higher and higher because the more families that get push out of the city the better it will be for Brooklyn.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2006 2:51 PM

Why are folks so concerned and pre-occupied with the fact that some people are afraid to live in majority black areas in Brownstone Brooklyn? Who cares? Some folks are just weak and fearful by their very nature. You can't change them. These are the same people who bypassed or would've passed over Fort Greene, Clinton Hill and Prospect Heights in the '80s and '90s.

Like Jerry Minsky, Antoon Scholee and other trailblazers, I am not afraid of black people as I made the decision to live and invest in these nabes over 15 years ago. Trust me, I did quite well for myself as did many others; whether white, black, artist or professional. Looking back most of my friends and business colleagues wish they had done the same but they didn't because they allowed their unfounded fears and prejudices get the best of them. Get real people. New York is New York. Urban life is urban life. You either can handle living in a diverse environment or you can't. If you have the money, want more safety and want to live in a more monolithic and homogeneous environment go move into PS or BH if you can afford it. But most of you can't so stop the bitching and moaning about other people's decisions.

A lot of the nabe bashing that you read on this site is from home owners in other parts of Non-Brownstone Brooklyn who desperately want their nabes to be hip and chic as those located downtown. I'm talking about residents of Bay Ridge, Sunset Park, Windsor Terrace, Kensington, South Slope, Ditmas, Midwood, etc. - the white neighborhoods outside the periphery of Brownstone Brooklyn. A lot of these residents look at the property values in majority black neighborhoods like FG, CH, PH, CHN and PLG and they can not believe that Manhattanites are choosing to live among minorities in these nabes and have taken home values to present astronomic levels. Their argument is basically "why spend so much to live around "them" when you can spend the same to live around "us" - albeit in architecturally insignificant neighborhoods. The bashing is so baseless and nonsensical that it's hilarious.

Everyone wants "THEIR" nabe to be the next "It Neighborhood" but they understand that architecturally significant neighborhoods like Bed-Stuy and Crown Heights North are the logically next bet because of the sheer size and beauty of the homes, tree lined blocks and proximity to Manhattan. This reality puts them on the defensive as it places them further down the pecking order - it drives them nuts. So what do they do? They pull a "Willie Horton" on the brownstoner.com readership by insisting the whites who move into these nabes are in "GREAT DANGER"! Give me a break. You want to know who’s really in danger? Young black males between the ages of 16 and 24. That’s who! Not Buggaboo pushing stay at home moms or their Goldman Sachs?Morgan Stanley banker husbands! I've never felt threatened in these neighborhoods and nor have my friends who have increasingly made the decision to call nabes like FG, CH, BS and CHN home. For those who don’t know, black people respect white people who view them as equal, are not afraid of them and view living among them a true benefit. What they don’t respect is some hyper sensitive/paranoid white person looking for police escort while they take out the trash at night! IMHO, nabe bashing is essentially promoted by those who live in less desirable nabes looking to pump up their own property values or buyers who truly want to move into these nabes but wish that prices were lower. Stop the bullshit. Please. It’s embarrassing.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2006 4:14 PM

Thats absurb. I cant speak for all of the areas but most people in the bay ridge, kensington, etc actually hate the holier than thou yuppies that move to areas like BS. Most people who live in these areas are more than happy to be less discovered and not have to deal with all the posers that drive up propertly values and clog the stores with their strollers and lattes. Believe it or not, most people in those "undesireable" areas you mention actually like to live there and want their children, families and friends to be able to afford to live there as well.

To say that people in Bay Ridge want to live in Bed Stuy is completely idiotic. And if you ever look at property values in other areas than your own, you'd see Bed Stuy brownstones are about the same as one in Bay Ridge. And in some of the other areas you mentioned like South Slope and Sunset, the prices are already higher than Bed Stuy.

Further, to call all areas other than your own architecturally insignificant shows your ignorance.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2006 6:44 PM

So how come the crime rates in bed stuy, percent recieving welfare, project buildings, gang related activity and school districts are SIGNIFICANTLY worse in bed stuy than any of the above mentioned 'architecturally insignificant' areas? Just explain that fact.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2006 7:33 PM

I find it truly amusing to hear people lump areas like PS. FG. CH with areas like PLG, Crown Heighs, and BS. There is no comparison--in quality of life or price.

The vast majority of the rants on this site are from residents of PLG, BS, and Crown Heights who can't stand the fact that their nabes have not increased in value nearly as much as the rest of Brooklyn. They rant against yuppies, they call everyone racists, they rant against gourmet food shops and cafes. But all it is really about is them wanting people to want their houses. It must be hard to see other homes triple and quadruple in price while yours doesn't. But please stop whining!

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2006 7:42 PM

Realistic posts:

Anonymous at November 10, 2006 6:23 PM

Anonymous at November 10, 2006 9:23 PM

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2006 10:16 PM

Anon 7:42 you make absolute no sense. No one is whining about property values in BS or CHN. Homeowners in these nabes, like in FG and CH, are laughing all the way to the bank. Trust me, these people have nothing to be worry about as the future for these neighborhoods is bright and secure. The reason that people often lump FG, CH, BS and CHN together is because these nabes, despite having higher crime rates and poorer schools, are thriving, flourishing and ARE PREDOMINATELY BLACK! Willie Horton scare tactics didn’t work in curtailing the growth and development of FG and CH and they certainly will not work in BS and CHN. In fact, over the past few years BS and CHN has experienced some of the highest property appreciation in all of Brooklyn! I also encourage you to go to some of the best blocks in FG, CH, BS, PH, CHN and PLG and behold the black families who have been living in harmony with their neighbors, both black and white, for generations. They are quite happy with their homes as they are with those who CHOOSE to become their neighbors. On another note, no one said anything about people from outside the Brownstone Belt wanting to move into BS. For the most part they don’t. But they damn sure hate it that yuppies, buppies and the likes are spending $1mm plus to live in BS, PLG and CHN as opposed to their non-descript neighborhoods. If my property was languishing on the market for months, while homes in the aforementioned nabes were selling at par or more, I’d be pissed too.

BTW, I live in Clinton Hill.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2006 11:21 PM

11:21, who do you think you're kidding with the racial bs? Your last post basically said nothing. I have friends who bought in PLG 5 years ago for 500K and just had the house apprasied at 950K. Meanwhile, the house they didn't buy in S. Slope is on the market for 1.4M. It's all they talk about. As an investment, they feel like they completely blew it. And based on all the inane rants on this site it is clear that that feeling is widespread. As for all your racial nonesense, it has nothing to do with the topic, so I won't comment.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2006 11:54 PM

"On the market" for $1.4M means absolutely nothing. If so then tell your friends to put their PLG home on the market for $1.8M so they can brag to their friends that they have a house "on the market" for $1.8M! LOL!

More seriously, in order to compare the PLG home vs. the PSS home you need to know how much the owner's spent on capital improvements in these homes in the last 5 years. There's a nicely done PSS property (16th St.) on the market through Corcoran for $1.395M. Are you talking about this property? If so, then it's not a straight line comparison, especially if your PLG friends bought their home in mint condition for $500 in 2001 and it's now appraised for $950 and the PSS owner bought a gut job for the same price but had to put $400-$500k to renovate. If that is indeed the case then I think it's basically a wash but I would need more facts. In any event, it makes no sense to cry over spilt milk. Who doesn't have regrets over not buying a certain property or into a certain neighborhood over the last six years? Life is full of missed opportunities. Damn, I would've loved to have purchased GOOG on the IPO but I thought that it was too rich. :-(

Posted by: Anonymous at November 13, 2006 5:23 AM

I bought in Bed Stuy in 2003 and have been very happy here. In terms of the "feel" of the neighborhood (dangerousness, incidence of crime, quality of life), it feels to me like the E. Village in the late 80's-- I lived on 10th between B&C back then, and it was block by block in terms of how safe you felt. The only "outposts" in those days were Life Cafe and 7B-- there weren't many other businesses that were open late on Ave B, back then. Some blocks were "family" blocks, populated by extended Hispanic families and were quite safe. People would look out for each other and were quite friendly. Other blocks were populated more by transients, had abandoned buildings, and a lot of drug activity. If you were smart, you stayed off these blocks and minded your own business if you had to go by them. There were a lot of shooting incidents during the time I lived on East 10th Street, but most of it was drug- and gang-related. I remember people looking aghast when I told them I lived so far East in the Village (is it safe?, do you have to take cabs home?, can you go out of your house at night?). I get the same thing now, mostly from people who have never been to BS and who seem to think Brooklyn itself is marginal. I don't think it's justified, but that's ok. I'm happy here.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 13, 2006 10:32 AM

So did anyone see any of these open houses?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 13, 2006 12:51 PM

Someone at 7:42pm said this:

"The vast majority of the rants on this site are from residents of PLG, BS, and Crown Heights who can't stand the fact that their nabes have not increased in value nearly as much as the rest of Brooklyn....It must be hard to see other homes triple and quadruple in price while yours doesn't. But please stop whining!"

Gee, smug much? You're exactly what people hate about yuppies, speaking of hating yuppies. And what sites have you been reading? Who do you know in PLG? Can you quote anyone saying these things? Because that's the total opposite I hear from those people. My husband and I have done all the research on neighborhoods including PLG including talking to people who lived there near 20 years, and nobody in PLG says PLG is going to gentrify like PS did. They know where they moved to, they weighed all the options, they made their choice. Most residents of PLG talk about everything else other than mere property value or investment, when they say why they like it there. I just don't even know where you're getting your "research" from. Oh right, your own head (or lower). Like all the other real estate experts here.

Truth is there are few few few neighborhoods you can buy a house for under a million. And it will only get more rare. It doesn't really matter if those houses create huge profits or not. If you want a house and can't spend over a million, you're buying in PLG or CH or BS. So get over your snobbery and deal with it. As for whether those houses will increase in value as much as South Slope, the smallest increase in value in any neighborhood in Brooklyn is still much higher than in most of the country. Going from $500K to $950K in 5 years like another person's did here, that's pretty darn good. How greedy can you get?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 13, 2006 9:34 PM