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November 15, 2006
Houses of the Day: Lefferts Doubleshot
There are two houses for sale on Midwood Street between Rogers and Nostrand that might be of interest to readers. The house on the left is at 230 Midwood Street and is available through Century 21, AAA Top Stars at 718 498-2400; the house on the right is 253 Midwood Street and is available through Jamal at Apple Real Estate at 718 735 2300. Can anyone tell us what the interiors are like at either of these places? How about recent comps?
230 Midwood Street: GMAP P*Shark
253 Midwood Street: GMAP P*Shark
Photos by Bob Marvin
Comments
Even though I sent the information about these houses to Mr. B (based on a tip on the Lefferts Yahoo list) I don't know much about them. The block, just east of the PLG historic district has some pretty nice houses. I'd guess these two-family houses might be at the lower end of the price scale for PLG, but I haven't called the brokers to ask about prices.
BTW you'll seldom see me sending photographs like these, taken with a digital point & shoot, but I was feeling lazy:-)
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 15, 2006 3:38 PM
It is always a crap-shoot to guess what a broker will do, but my educated guess based on the location and other houses between Rogers and Nostrand that sold recently, is $650,000 +-$50,000.
Posted by: Gary at November 15, 2006 6:25 PM
My husband and I looked at 3 houses on that very street 12-18 months ago. It has a nice vibe, and 650K sounds about right for the area. Nice photos Bob!
Posted by: aunt helen at November 16, 2006 10:26 AM
Between Rogers and Nostrand
285 Lefferts - 685
274 lefferts 600
389 fenimore 662
289 lefferts 775
Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 11:23 AM
10:58,
'm not sure you're actually agreeing with 8:11--while his/her post was ambiguous, I interpreted it as surprise that prices were that LOW.
There aren't many brownstone neighborhoods where prices like these can be found, although even here you have to look outside of both the prime landmarked blocks and such architecturally distinguished blocks as Parkside and Ocean.
OTOH, having bought my house many years ago, I have a hard time even thinking of such mere sub-million dollar prices as low, but I'm trying to adjust :-)
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 16, 2006 11:46 AM
Thank you Aunt Helen!
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 16, 2006 11:48 AM
I was surprised that the prices were that high, actually. This is a dangerous neighborhood and you'd really have to understand what you're embarking upon. On the other hand, it is New York City and nothing's cheap!
Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 12:19 PM
Newsflash: the person who keeps commenting anonymously about this neighborhood being dangerous is actually an extremely well-educated, black attorney/activist who wants to stall inevitable gentification by scaring away decent people.
Posted by: Ed at November 16, 2006 12:41 PM
Anyone who posts comments about "trolls" is a troll.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 1:26 PM
1:26PM was the troll, and by his own criterion I might add!
Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 1:59 PM
230 Midwood (the one on the left) is listed at a whopping $799K by Century 21. We only saw the downstairs, but what we did see was kinda run down though not terribly muddled. While it did have some old wood detailing, some of the trim, frames and molding had been chopped up to make room for new cheesy door hardware, etc. The windows & doors were in bad shape. The pocket doors were mostly intact but the frames were a bit mangled. Kitchen & bath BAD BAD BAD and bubble-gum pink.
The one on the right we did not see, because it was listed at (gasp!) $850.
Posted by: noq at November 16, 2006 10:17 PM
Sheesh, with all the hater-trolls around it's so impossible to actually find out what any neighborhood is really like! Is there another website where people can go? Seriously. The trolls on this site are really getting bad. I'd like to get an accurate assessment of PLG, but it's impossible. I have talked to three different educated, professional whites who have lived there anywhere from 5 to 18 years and they absolutely love it. But then I come here and all anybody says is it's a crime-ridden hell hole. Well which is it? It can't be both. The praise can't in any way be chalked up simply to people in denial. Nobody would put up with THAT much crime, if that were an accurate picture being presented by the trolls. Not for 18 years, get real. So why make PLG sound so awful? What's the point? Are you trolls actually concerned for people who might buy there? It sure doesn't sound like it. So I don't understand the motives.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 10:29 PM
The anti-PLG trolls are a small group of activist-minded users who desire to stall gentrification and keep the neighborhood black. By scaring white people from moving into the neighborhood, the prices won't go up so quickly, and poorer blacks won't be priced out of the neighborhood.
Posted by: Ed at November 16, 2006 11:12 PM
That does not seem to be working, despite increased troll activity. As someone who is looking to buy there, I have seen the prices go up a great deal in the last 5-6 months (to my chagrin).
Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 11:36 PM
I'm afraid the forces of capitalism will eventually undermine any attempts to thwart gentrification in PLG. That's not to say that the trolls haven't made an impact tho. They caused Brownstoner to stop posting threads about Lefferts Gardens altogether. In 2006 many Brokers became upset with Brownstoner because clients started saying things like "we read on Brownstoner that PLG is extremely dangerous."
Posted by: Ed at November 17, 2006 3:27 AM
I have no doubt it has made some impact on a few people. But I would hope that the people reading the open comments on Brownstoner are smart enough to vet the posts and form their own opinions.
Don't forget that posts have also claimed that a two-story 2000+ square foot brownstone would be "too small" for families with more than one child. I won't even get started with that one...
Posted by: noq at November 17, 2006 8:39 AM
"Is there another website where people can go? .... I'd like to get an accurate assessment of PLG"
For other takes on PLG try:
www.planetplg.com
acrossthepark.typepad.com
groups.yahoo.com/group/lefferts
And, of course, the Lefferts Manor Association's site:
leffertsmanor.org
On that site, click on "Newsletter" under "Local Links" to see past copies of the Lefferts Manor Echo, which I edit. The "Police Blotter" will give you an idea of how "dangerous" the area is--it's actually pretty tame reading compared to similar columns in the weekly papers that cover other Brooklyn brownstone neighborhoods. Of course you might dismiss it as propaganda from "PLG
Nazis" like me [to use an unflattering characterization from a PLG basher], but FWIW, I print the information, uncensored, from what's provided by the 71st Pct.'s community affairs officer.
BTW, TypeKey STILL isn't working (since yesterday evening), so I can't sign in properly.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 17, 2006 9:40 AM
On re-reading the post of "Barry" who had used the term "PLG Nazi" I realize he's NOT a "PLG basher." My apologies Barry, even though I disagree with you about those who defend my neighborhood.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 17, 2006 9:44 AM
You're not going to get an honest assessment of any neighborhood by reading blogs whose primary purpose is to PROMOTE that neighborhood. The only way to get an honest assessment of PLG is by visiting it. I suggest visiting it a few times, during both day and nighttime hours. Anything else is pointless.
I'm amused to no end by the backlash against people who criticize PLG on this site. If someone criticizes Victorian Flatbush or Sunset Park, no one bats an eye and it might result in any interesting dialogue. However, let one little negative thing drop about PLG (which is certainly NOT perfect...no nabe is), and you're made out to be some sort of troll, or you're part of some "activist group" out to derail gentrification.
What the hell is wrong with you people? Get a grip.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 17, 2006 10:00 AM
Speaking of violent behavior: Anonymous 10:00AM?
Posted by: Ed at November 17, 2006 12:50 PM
There you go, "Ed". Now you have my name. I hope this somehow abates the brutal violence embodied in my anonymity.
Posted by: Jon Iglehart at November 17, 2006 1:26 PM
"You're not going to get an honest assessment of any neighborhood by reading blogs whose primary purpose is to PROMOTE that neighborhood. The only way to get an honest assessment of PLG is by visiting it. I suggest visiting it a few times, during both day and nighttime hours".
I actually agree--the blogs and websites can only be a starting point. Anyone who wants to learn about PLG or ANY neighborhood should certainly visit.
I don't agree with anon 10:00 though about the extent of "the backlash against people who criticize PLG on this site". Granted, we have ONE regular poster who gets carried away, but most PLG people are pretty reasonable, especially when you consider that SOME of the criticisms of the neighborhood [on previous threads] have been completely off the wall. That is NOT to say that I think PLG or any neighborhood is "perfect".
BTW, TypeKey is STILL out--I get "An error occurred: The sign-in validation failed"--so I can't sign in.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 17, 2006 2:35 PM
One other comment about the websites and blogs I recommended. Only one, the LMA website is intended to promote the neighborhood (although FWIW--which may not be much as I DO have an ax to grind here--I personally an certain that it gives honest information). The other three are mostly for internal consumption WITHIN the PLG community rather than as PR outlets.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 17, 2006 2:47 PM
I allow that you, Bob, have always been reasonable and on the up-and-up, but I agree with the previous poster that several PLG boosters have been reactionary, rude and....well, let's just say they like to take full advantage of the internet's "consequence free" environment. In some cases they are reacting to very negative things that people have said about PLG, and I don't like to hear bad things said about my neighborhood either. Still, you have to be prepared to 'handle' that if you come onto a blog like this.
And I post this anomymously because I see nothing wrong with anonymous posting. Anonymous posting is allowed on this site, so anyone who chooses to post anonymously should do so IMHO.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 17, 2006 2:50 PM
I agree that there's nothing wrong with anonymous posting. One reason that I use my actual name is to force myself to avoid taking "advantage of the internet's 'consequence free' environment." I'm not sure if that makes me responsible, brave, or just dumb :-)
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 17, 2006 2:59 PM
If I understand it correctly, the "backlash" by PLG residents is due to outlandish comments which distort statistical facts about safety, right?
So why, are people so hellbent on blaming PLG residents for being touchy? Isn't it best to set the record straight?
Non-residents want the truth, and residents don't want to be misrepresented.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 18, 2006 3:58 AM
Every nabe wants to be accurately represented. This isn't something that's true only of PLG. And I doubt that anyone does PLG a service by attempting to bully and browbeat those who criticize PLG, whether it's for safety reasons or anything else. If you can't handle dealing with the general public as it visits this site, I suggest you start your own blog so that you can censor out all of the comments you don't like.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 18, 2006 7:53 AM
There are indeed some people in PLG who are feeling strongly against the changes and a betterment of the nabe.Some people are afraid to be priced out at some point.For example, some residents were not so happy about the last PLG arts craft fair on Lincoln road and they were quite vocal about it.
It is just a fact, gentrification is a threat and I would not be suprised if someone from PLG was behind those really over the top exagerated posts about PLG's safety, in order to scare potential buyers away and keep R.E. Prices down.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 18, 2006 8:49 AM
I'm confused. Are people being "browbeaten" for reasonable comments or for making"outlandish comments"? Isn't this a crucial distinction?
Posted by: Ed at November 18, 2006 9:42 AM
Anonymous 3:58,
Exactly!
Anonymous 7:53,
"bully[ing] and browbeat[ing]"?
perhaps, sometimes from ONE frequent poster who IMO tends to get carried away, but , in general, PLG residents are no more in favor of censorship than anyone else who posts here.
Anonymous 8:49,
No doubt there are those who do see gentrification as a threat in PLG and many other brownstone neighborhoods, but your theory seems as unlikely as the opposing version that ascribes all questions about safety in PLG to some giant racist plot. Also, FWIW, I'm on the board of PLG Arts, worked on the recent Lincoln Road Artmart, and have only heard of opposition voiced by ONE resident of Lincoln Road. There certainly haven't been any complaints raised on the local PLG lists or blogs. Here's a link to the thread about Artmart on Across the Park:
http://tinyurl.com/y7yvo8
There was only one (informational) posting about the Artmart on the Lefferts Yahoo Group and no one commented at all about that.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 18, 2006 9:44 AM
Ed,
As you know, I think its better to just ignore the REALLY outlandish comments. No one believes them anyway.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 18, 2006 9:49 AM
I'm not going to flame you Walt, but I would suggest phoning Joe Johnson, or Vinnie Martinos in addition to listening to the police radio. They're, respectively, the anti-crime and community affairs officers at the 71st Pct., which covers PLG (and some MUCH higher crime areas to the east which MIGHT account for many of the violent incidents you report hearing about).
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 18, 2006 10:17 AM
Much of this PLG discussion, as usual, is the product of a troll (or trolls). The design is to make ridiculous assertions and/or argue both sides of a topic, to an extreme, for the sole purpose of provoking upset. Leave this juvenile, demented soul alone. Eventually, he will go back to taking his meds and, hopefully, leave the rest of us alone.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 18, 2006 10:30 AM
Screw you, Walt.
Posted by: PLGer and Proud of It at November 18, 2006 10:57 AM
Correct, Bob. The "dangerous" area that Walt is talking about is in a completely different area of the precinct than PLG. That's why these comments are outlandish. They are inaccurate. That's why PLGers defend their neighborhood. I love the fact that people care so much.
Posted by: Ed at November 18, 2006 12:11 PM
" I love the fact that people care so much"
Me too Ed. FWIW I don't think Walt is our old familiar troll for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that he can write a literate English sentence. I think he's a communications hobbyest who's depending a bit too much on technology--no evil intent here that I can see.
IMO Anonymous 10:30 has a good point and what he/she describes has happened on many PLG-related threads (and on threads about other neighborhoods, such as the recent one about the Hancock St. house) but I don't think it's happened much on THIS thread.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 18, 2006 12:50 PM
Point taken Walt, although I suspect that listening to police radio in most brownstone neighborhoods might scare the hell out of prospective buyers (just a guess--I've never had the equipment needed to listen). Obviously concerns "about safety in PLG [or ANY neighborhood to which one is thinking of moving]are not unreasonable and [those who do so]should not be branded as trolls", although there HAVE, in the past, been some claims so patently outragous that this label is appropriate.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 18, 2006 1:12 PM
I agree. People who are concerned about safety in PLG, Prospect Heights, Clinton Hill, Fort Greene, Crown Heights, Bed-Stuy, and some parts of Boerum Hill are not unreasonable.
Posted by: Ed at November 18, 2006 2:18 PM
Ed, if you or anyone else doesn't like PLG, then get the hell out. We don't need you.
Posted by: PLGer and Proud of It at November 18, 2006 2:48 PM
Ed said:
"People who are concerned about safety in PLG, Prospect Heights, Clinton Hill, Fort Greene, Crown Heights, Bed-Stuy, and some parts of Boerum Hill are not unreasonable."
Sure it's not unreasonable. But Ed left out Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights. Well...I know people who have been mugged in BOTH those neighborhoods. My husband was mugged right outside our door on a prime Park Slope block. Everybody needs to be alert all the time everywhere, and that's the simple plain truth. But if you are scared of crime to the degree you would entirely avoid all the neighborhoods Ed lists, then honestly, you should not be living in New York City at all. You just wouldn't be comfortable here.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 18, 2006 5:41 PM
And that, my dear, is why even the most tame conversations about safety in PLG are pretty useless. But it's the outlandish and unfounded comments that stir people up.
Let's be real - comments about safety in PLG, Fort Greene, Clinton Hill, etc., say so much more about the person who posts them, rather than anything meaningful about crime or safety.
Posted by: Ed at November 18, 2006 6:19 PM
5:41, you're right. Because there's crime in every neighborhood, no neighborhood is any safer or any more dangerous than any other. That's what I call a compelling argument. In fact, I'd go even further. If someone ever has concerns of any kind about their own personal safety, they shouldn't live ANYWHERE because there's no community that's completely free of crime. Such a person should simply swallow a bottle of sleeping pills and bid farewell to this world that they're just too fragile to live in.
Ed, you're also right. No one can utter a meaningful statement about crime. In fact, "crime" isn't even a word. It's just a meaningless string of symbols.
It's nice to have finally cleared this all up. Ahhhh.....
Posted by: Anonymous at November 18, 2006 11:20 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I'm packing up and moving to Brownsville. It's just as safe as anyplace else!
Posted by: Bemused at November 18, 2006 11:25 PM
5:41PM, I just read through this thread and I didn't see anyone claim that they're "scared of crime to the degree [they] would entirely avoid all the neighborhoods Ed lists". In fact, Ed was the only person talking about these other neighborhoods. So what gives?
Posted by: Anonymous at November 19, 2006 12:16 AM
You should read more carefully.
Bob Marvin mentioned that listening to police radio would be enough to scare many prospective buyers in brownstone Brooklyn, and that everyone should be concerned about safety when moving to Brownstone Brooklyn.
Then, I agreed that it's reasonable to be concerned about safety in the following: Prospect Heights, Clinton Hill, Fort Greene, Crown Heights, Bed-Stuy, PLG and some parts of Boerum Hill. These neighborhoods have traditionally been thought of as somewhat "dodgy".
Then, 5:41PM indicated that crime can occur even Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights.
Posted by: Ed at November 19, 2006 6:12 PM
I'm white, and when I walk around in a black neighborhood, I feel like they resent me for moving in. People don't say hello and they look at you funny - like you have everything and are going to take what's theirs. I'm sorry that's just how I feel. It makes me feel unsafe to be subjected to this, and that's why I won't move into neighborhoods like that. Police reports only confirm what I feel. I can't imagine raising my kids there in a neighborhood like Crown Heights or Clinton Hill or Lefferts Manor or Fort Greene. I'll stick to Park Slope, Carroll Gardens and Brooklyn Heights. I know it sounds awful, but that's how I feel.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 19, 2006 6:32 PM
You don't seem to get elementary logic, Ed. Of course there's crime everywhere, but it doesn't follow from this that Park Slope is as dangerous as PLG. And of course it's absurd to compare PLG to most of the other areas you mentioned because it's far more dangerous.
Hope this helps.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 19, 2006 11:23 PM
PLG is tricky. In order to make a decent comparison you'd have to look not at other neighborhoods, I think, but at areas within other neighborhoods. For example, there are some relatively rough areas in Bed Stuy that are comparable to PLG in terms of safety. Why isn't this all the comparison we need? It's never going to work to compare PLG to war zones like East New York, but it's equally unrealistic to compare it to Park Slope, Clinton Hill or Ft. Greene.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 20, 2006 7:53 AM
"but it's equally unrealistic to compare it to Park Slope, Clinton Hill or Ft. Greene".
I think it is and, based on my 32 years of living here, I'd venture to say that PLG, in general, compares favorably to these three areas in terms of safety and Lefferts Manor may well be as safe as ANY brownstone neighborhood.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 20, 2006 9:47 AM
PLG is a special case. So far as safety is concerned, PLG occupies a 'gray zone'--not horrible, but pretty bad and not as safe as the areas surrounding it. Whether it will get better depends on what happens to the economy in coming years. (I'd feel more confident about the economy if I didn't think our national deficit would come back haunt us, but that's another story.)
Posted by: Anonymous at November 20, 2006 10:05 AM
Anon. 10:05's comment SOUNDS reasonable, but actually shows that he/she is unfamiliar with the neighborhood. Rather than being "not as safe as the areas surrounding it" PLG, like a number of brownstone neighborhoods, is bordered by areas that many consider to be LESS safe.
I wonder if Anon. 10:05 has ever been in PLG or has even looked at a map?
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 20, 2006 10:14 AM
More dangerous than Crown Heights South, East Flatbush, and "downtown" Flatbush? Really? Would you care to define "just nuts"?
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 20, 2006 10:28 AM
BTW, that was my last comment on this particular thread--I'm not getting into a flame war.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 20, 2006 10:31 AM
Sorry, I should have said "Agreed 10:22AM"...I cewrtainly do NOT agree with 10:31.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 20, 2006 10:33 AM
Newsflash: the person who keeps commenting anonymously about this neighborhood being dangerous is actually a well-educated black activist who wants to stall inevitable gentification by scaring away decent people.
Posted by: Ed at November 20, 2006 10:53 AM
Don't be silly. No one's said anything that bad. And don't you think it's a little "violent" to post using only your first name?
Posted by: Anonymous at November 20, 2006 10:58 AM
Jerk.
Posted by: Ed at November 20, 2006 11:24 AM
I didn't post 11:24AM. I am pretty sure Bob Marvin hasn't posted a number of comments ascribed to him either.
Posted by: Ed at November 20, 2006 12:34 PM
Newsflash: the person who keeps commenting anonymously about this neighborhood being dangerous is actually a well-educated black activist who wants to stall inevitable gentification by scaring away decent people.
Posted by: Ed at November 20, 2006 12:35 PM
Care to offer a little evidence to back up your newsflash, Ed? I assume you aren't just talking out of your arse.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 20, 2006 2:59 PM
Never a safe assumption in Ed's case.
Posted by: Lord Whitby at November 20, 2006 5:24 PM
Looks like our little activist/troll is getting testy and stupid. Why, troll, do you get so upset when I read you to filth?
Posted by: Ed at November 21, 2006 1:05 PM
You are the earlier poster, the troll, and the activist, no? And you're the only one having a conversation w/ me under numerous aliases (including my own), no? Are we now going to have a sci-fi television moment?
Posted by: Ed at November 21, 2006 2:04 PM
Yes, of course I can support my claim. You and I are, essentially, the only ones conversing on this board. Why don't you email me and we'll discuss this further? We can talk more specifically about your agenda and goals for PLG, and I may be able to make some suggestions as to how you can improve PLG without encouraging the status quo and scaring away decent people, ok? Please, e-mail me.
Posted by: Ed at November 21, 2006 2:16 PM
And by the way, can you support your claim that Lefferts Manor is a "dangerous" neighborhood? Can you tell everyone why you impersonate people like me and Bob Marvin? Can you clarify to all who read this blog WHY YOU DO WHAT YOU DO?
You know, Troll, you're a bit of a freak.
Posted by: Ed at November 21, 2006 2:20 PM
Anon 2:36pm - How do you feel about safety in Lefferts Manor? How do you feel about gentrification in Lefferts Manor? Please tell me.
Posted by: Ed at November 21, 2006 3:06 PM
Anon I'm afraid you went for the bait. You will never get a shred of evidence from "Ed" because he has none. He'll only give you the runaround.
Posted by: Chumley at November 21, 2006 5:37 PM
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