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November 1, 2006
House of the Day: 338 Clinton Avenue
When we were looking at yesterday's house of the day, we noticed that BHS broker Ann Macdonald also has another mind-blowingly beautiful but not inexpensive house on the market a little further east from the one overlooking Fort Greene Park. 338 Clinton Avenue is on one of the grandest stretches in the borough and is dripping with original woodwork. In addition, four of its five floors are 90 feet deep, according to the listing, which would mean there's about 8,000 square feet of living space, as opposed to the 4,400 quoted by Property Shark. So that's really what it comes down to: At 8,000 square feet, this looks quite reasonably priced at $3.2 million; at 4,400 square feet, it looks like a stretch. Regardless, you'll want to take a look at some of the interior photos we have posted on the jump. Delish!
338 Clinton Avenue [Brown Harris Stevens] GMAP P*Shark
Comments
I don't think thats exactly what listing says/or is trying to say.
Listing says "90' extension" not 90' deep- which I think is typo - meant a 9' extension on some floors.
Unfortunately floorplan shows only 1 floor - and sure is hell aint 90'.
but does look like a small extension.
So propshark is probably pretty close to actual size(although sometimes their figures include garden level and sometimes don't)
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 12:30 PM
go to http://local.live.com/ and you can see for yourself. It's definitely not 90'. Considering the front yard is about 10' deep an extension of that size would cover the entire backyard. It looks like there is a small extension there, 9' sounds about right.
The other interesting thing you can see is that it is directly across from a large co-op building. While the block as a whole is nice I would want a better view from my front yard for $3.2M.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 12:58 PM
Interesting. Thanks for the legwork!
Posted by: brownstoner at November 1, 2006 1:03 PM
I like this house - good bones, scope for improvement. If I were buying in FG, 2.9m would be my bid.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 1:20 PM
This is great. Because of the size, I think that this is a way better deal than the other one posted yesterday on Washington Park. It looks great from the street and needs some elbow grease but looks fine.
Posted by: anon at November 1, 2006 1:26 PM
We almost rented 2 floors of one of the ones on the block.
They are nice, but not nearly as ornate as the ones on the park. The really nice buildings were 25', not 22 or 20.
Transportation in the neighborhood sucks, the key food on waverly still sells pig ears, and the area just isn't that nice.
There was another of these houses (same row) for sale for 1.8, albeit without the detail.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 1:37 PM
Hold up. "If I were buying in FG, 2.9m would be my bid"? What does that mean? Sounds like what you are saying is that you won't pay 2.9m because you won't live in FG.
More interesting question would be what would you pay for the house that is in in FG? $2mm, $1mm, or nothing...cause you wouldn't live in FG for any amount of money?
This house is listed for $1mm too high in my opinion. It trades $2.5 to $2.75 or $600 pre sq ft.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 1:39 PM
Anon 1:37,
The supermarket on Waverly hasn't been a Key Food for at least 5 years. And they don't sell pig's ears. When is the last time you've been in the neighborhood?
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 1:42 PM
I've lived in the neighborhood for close to 6 years and the grocery store on Waverly was 'Associated' the full time. It wasn't so impressive the first few years, but, aside from it not being a mega-mart, there are very few things to complain about. Anon 1:37, you don't sound like a resident.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 1:49 PM
One wonders if you can't get pigs ears at the market, what other amenities the neighborhood lacks.
Posted by: Hal at November 1, 2006 1:51 PM
There is anoher brownstone on sale on Clinton Av.,#435, also on BHS site.
It has an ugly stone clad facade, but I have been once inside (albeit only on parlour floor) and it
has a beautiful large, triple parlour and pretty intact as I can remember - my question is: how much would it cost restoring it to the original front, and also how does that impact the asking price (about 2 mil)?
Posted by: anonymous at November 1, 2006 1:51 PM
Anon 1:20 - given our current circumstances, we can't move to FG. Suffice it to say that if our children were comfortable enconsced in a fine Bk private school, I'd move there in a second. It's not about affording the private school tuition, it's about getting in. Given our school worries, we're better off living somewhere with a good zoned public.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 2:07 PM
1) YES they do sell pig ears! I do live in CH, shop there and I saw them a couple of days ago. Feet and other parts too!
2) It is not a bad supermarket though, catering cautiously to the gentrification too, so emergen"C" at much better prices than whole foos, organic stuff etc. Only wish their fruit and vegetables were fresher. Way better than the Fulton Street supermarket though!
Posted by: anonymous at November 1, 2006 2:09 PM
I'm 137. Haven't lived there for 3 years, but the rest of the family still does. Keyfood is still keyfood in my mind, even if it is associated food now.
Yes it is a pretty nice house. But it is only being priced this way to lend cred to the 3.8 MM house.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 2:22 PM
Anon 2:07
I have raised this school issue before but it never goes anywhere - no one seem to pick up on the fact that their kids might not make the cut and that there are a finite number of private school seats. Affording the tuition is just one factor. I also think that variances are going to become harder to obtain.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 2:23 PM
Anon 2:07 here - many people don't get it because either their kids are older - so they have that variance, are in a selective school, private OR have no kids. If you are a parent like me who is only 2 or 3 years away from having to use the public school system, you smarten up very quickly. To summarize: there are very few spots available for non-sibs or unconnected at the 25k+ schools (parochials are out for us as we are atheists), if you go to a good public zoned, you still have to worry about the middle school situation (most middle schools suck) but you have that warchest of unspent $ behind you (25k X 6 or whatever). Personally, I'm in the "gamble for good private middle school" camp, and then test for Stuy/Bx/Bk later. It seems foolish to spend $150k X how ever many kids because you are worried about middle school spots. That's a lot of dough. I would rather donate it to a private later in exchange for a spot. Sorry if I sound callous - some of you don't seem to realize that the relatively low property taxes in NYC come at a price. Crap schools for the most part.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 2:34 PM
I used to live next door at 336. The aforementioned extension is 3 floors stories(ground level, parlor level, 2 floor). The co-op in front does not afford the best views. However, to the rear you are rewarded with the beautiful architecture of the church and masonic temple.
House is great, BUT..... The fact that it so close to the corner of Clinton and Lafayette is a major detraction.
Its right next to the G train station. The ventilation grates are on Lafayette and you can hear the train doors open and close. With the train station comes the foot traffic. A lot of foot traffic. Then there is the street noise. The bus stop is on the corner and the hydraulic brakes are a pain. I lived there in the mid 90s when police where still allowed to drive around with sirens blasting for no apparent reason. I don't imagine the siren are as bad now. But still a concern.
Oh yeah, if your religious but don't like to attend mass, this is the place for you. With 2 churches within 100 ft of me, i was able to 'observe' mass from the sanctity of my bedroom while I lived there. Sure i missed communion(living in sin with my girlfriend, i probably was 'entitled' to communion anyway). However, i was able to hear the gospel and homily clear as day.
It a nice place, but for just over half a million more I'd take yesterdays HOTD at 181 Washington Pk.
Posted by: Ballin' at November 1, 2006 2:36 PM
PS11 (Greene and Waverly) and PS20 (Adelphi and Myrtle) are both vastly improved schools. Both have LEAD (gifted) programs. Both have great parent involvement. When my daughter started school (she's in 5th grade now, and we are zoned for the unimproved PS56) I considered applying for a variance (still easy at both schools) but decided to send her elsewhere. But if I had a child starting school now, I would consider PS11, PS20, plus several highly regarded charter schools in the neighborhood.
And IS113 on Adelphi and Lafayette has great test scores and is featured in the Best Public Middle Schools in NYC book and has excellent arts (visual and performing) and technology programs. My daughter is definitely applying there for next year (along with applying to District 2 schools in Manhattan where she now goes to school).
Just because a school is majority-black does not make it a bad school!
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 2:40 PM
This house is in Clinton Hill not Fort Greene and if you are paying $3.2M for a house, I would certainly hope that your children are going to PRIVATE school, otherwise, your priorities are totally screwed up!
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 2:45 PM
Anon 2:45 - you simply do not understand the private school situation in NYC. It is totally possible to get shut out of the schools that are worth paying 25k/year for. What part of that do you not get? Why would I pay 3.2m to live in an area that is not zoned for schools that I am not comfortable with when I could just as easily pay 3.2m to live in a narrower, less detailed brownstone somewhere else? anon 2:40 - yes, I've heard good things about PS11 but I would hazard a guess that a variance would not be as easy to obtain in 3 years and who knows what the board of ed policy would be on subsequent siblings. And the fact that you have to apply to a middle school, and can't reliably send your kid to any one of a half-dozen says it all for me.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 2:54 PM
For both this and yesterday's 4M house in FG, I'd MUCH rather have the 3 bedroom 3000 square foot apartment in the Meir on GAP for 3M. No question!
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 2:55 PM
I agree that just because a school is majority black doesn't make it bad. But (and I am going to get flamed for saying this), I still wouldn't send my (white) kid to a school that's 98% African American.
Now, before I get trampled by the e-hordes: I grew up in a major city in the seventies and eighties. And it was a dangerous time to be a minority white kid. Fights, getting picked on, getting mugged on a regular basis... What's the name of that Jonathan Lethem book about the same thing in Brooklyn?
Anyways. I don't want my kid to have to go through that. Sure, I survived and I'm here to tell the tale, but I was a pretty hard-headed kid. Some kids are more sensitive, and I hope to teach my kid about racial diversity and acceptance in an ambiance where he can actually see acceptance and diversity at work, not where "diversity" means 98% some other race, as long as it's not white.
Ok, fire away.
Posted by: anon at November 1, 2006 3:03 PM
Anon 2:07 - Anon 2:23 again and I agree with your thinking. I have two kids in public school - one in middle school. The middle schools in my area have vastly improved BUT the competition is cutthroat.
Anon 2:40 - I don't think there was any racial connotation meant. My kids could have gone to Our Lady of Smith St. (PS 58)but when my oldest was starting school I found it too traditional. Why did you send your child to a D2 school?
I think the point that 2:07 is trying to make is that a lot of parents are not willing to gamble with their children's education and prefer to have their children in schools with proven track records.
BTW, I have heard positive things about IS113. Good luck with the middle school process - at least you have hedged your bets w/ District 2.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 3:06 PM
The Fortress of Solitude.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 3:08 PM
Good book. For a sec, I thought it was a nickname for the Meier!
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 3:10 PM
Anon 2:07 here - totally agree with you, Anon 3:06. Can't believe that people don't understand that just because I can afford a 3.2m property doesn't mean I will automatically send kids to private simply because I'm not arrogant enough to assume my kids will get in to a good private school. And all things being equal between a private and public school, I'd much rather send my kids to public for 2 reasons - 1) a tiny bit more economic diversity (there's not as much FA as you think at privates ) and 2) I'm building up a warchest for later (middle s, high s, college).
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 3:16 PM
Did I just wander onto www.insideschools.org?
Posted by: west at November 1, 2006 3:28 PM
Anon 3:03. I totally understand your point. It's hard to "be" the diversity anywhere. My kid goes to St. Ann's and I cringe thinking about what they may have to go through as black children. Merits of the school aside, as they were in your comments.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 3:28 PM
Anon 2:07 - if you have a kid that can get those double fours on the standardized scores you won't have a problem with public middle/high schools.
It is the average child that falls through the cracks. Of course if we lived in Bayside or anywhere else for that matter we wouldn't be so worked up about fourth grade test scores.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 3:31 PM
I love to see the hypocrisy of NE liberalism on display, especially during this election season. Anon 3:03 would you counsel a Black or Latino family against sending their child to a public school that was 98% white? Or do you find your precious white children to be better behaved and more accepting than the negro hordes?
Posted by: C-Roy at November 1, 2006 3:36 PM
The whole save the $$ now for the warchest for middle school/college years is an interesting position to put forth. I take the other positon - kinda like an approach to preventive medicine - spend some now, and you have less serious issues to deal with later on with the patient. Of course, this implies/suggests that public schools give an inferior basic education - which I wholeheartedly DO NOT believe. Besides the countless family members who give their blood sweat and teras in the NYC public school system as teachers/aides and administrators - I really think the basic foundation that kids get really begins from within the home. Big buck private shcools are really just a way to outsource sound foundation building-skills in education to entites that by their very nature are more "responsive" to the parents.
Posted by: Dave at November 1, 2006 3:38 PM
Anon 2:07 here: I am not white, and it is "easier" in some ways to be the only non-white person in an all-white school than the reverse. Because it taught me how to deal with a very white world at college, and in the workforce. The reverse isn't true because of our screwed up society.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 3:38 PM
Everyone knows that precious white children are America's little dumplings
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 3:41 PM
Anon 2:07 here - boy gotta get out to take advantage of the weather! Most public schools aren't comparable to privates but unless your child has specific needs, the highly-ranked publics (6,234,3,41,199,87, 321) are just as good as privates for me. For those schools, I'd gladly build up $ for later.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 3:42 PM
I am slowly losing respect for this web site - i agree with the poster who thinks this listing and feature on this web site is to "help" the overpriced $3.8mm house on wash park. $3.2mm for this ?!@ and seems to need work and is in CH and also looks $.5-1mm overvalued and wont sell ....
for brownstoner to call this reasonably priced is very questionable...
....... lets have the wash park house be the house of the day again (for the third time) in a couple weeks please.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 3:59 PM
Anon 3:38 So, because you learned a few coping skills you've decided that black kids in white environs fare better than the reverse? Come on.. sounds like it isn't just our society that's screwed up. Anon 3:03 has a valid point. We haven't made our society what it should be therefore kids, black and white, pay the price when exposed to certain environments. The "price" is how the experience is internalized and that will differ depending on the child.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 3:59 PM
3:03 here.
C-Roy, I wouldn't counsel anyone on what to do with their kids' education. I think that's a very personal decision, and what's best varies from neighborhood to neighborhood and person to person. That's what's under discussion here, right? That, and that house on Clinton Ave that I would love to be able to afford.
Anon 3:28, I totally understand. I wish your kids all the best in navigating the messed-up racial climate in this country.
Posted by: anon3:03 at November 1, 2006 4:07 PM
I am Black and I don't/wouldn't send my kids to a all black Inner City School. Who in their right mind would do this unless circumstances required it. On the same token I wouldn't send my kids to an all white suburban school either. Who would do that unless circumstances required it.
The notion that as parents you will buy a $4MM house in Brooklyn and then not pay the $25K per child to go to a St. Anne's seem a bit off to me. At that price level there is nothing "priced in" for good public schools. Maybe the $1mm coops have better bids because of good public schools, not $4MM brownstones.
By the way have you seen the college choices of St. Anne's graduates? Once you see it all of you will get off this good public school nonsense.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 4:21 PM
Anon 3:03 fair enough. You sound like a nice and well meaning-person, so I will let it go at that.
For the record I prefer today's HOTD over yesterdays. I think it gives the buyer more flexibility from an interior deign standpoint. I for example like the modern furniture & fixtures/traditional home mash-up. But when a house is "dripping" with as much detail as yesterday's and is so already done-up I think it makes that particular design aesthetic harder to pull off. I know there certainly are other factors to consider but since I am years away from being able to afford either one, my daydreams generally start and end with the interior design possibilities.
They certainly are both unique and beautiful though. Good job B'Stoner.
Posted by: C-Roy at November 1, 2006 4:25 PM
Anon 4:21 - it isn't necessarily being able to afford private school or not but rather what are parents to do if they want to send their kids to private school but their kid doesn't make the cut or there is no more room?
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 4:38 PM
The way we dealt with the school/house issue was to get our child into a good private school and then we purchased a house in a neighborhood that we liked, but felt lacked good public school options. It works for us!
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 4:50 PM
Anon 2:07 back again from a lovely afternoon outside - the St. Ann's poster doesn't understand this one fact - I think it's a great school and the college admissions outstanding BUT I am not going to bank on my kids getting in. Not there or Friends or Packer or Poly or Brearley or Collegiate or Trinity or Horace Mann or blablabla so I have no choice but to look for the best that the public schools have to offer.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 5:36 PM
2:07 - and it's a bit facetious for the black poster who sends her/his kids to St Ann's to tell me to get off the public school nonsense. If we were a black or Latino family who could afford 25k/year tuition, the privates would come-a-courting and I wouldn't worry about that or college admissions either. Unfortunately, we belong to an over-achieving minority.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 5:39 PM
Dear Anon 2:54,
I understand the private school situation very very well as I have kids in one of the best private schools in NYC. Why would your kids get shut out? Perhaps you should apply to schools that your kids can get into. Not everyone can go to Dalton or St. Ann's. Why in the world would anyone who can afford a $3.2M house even contemplate PUBLIC school in NYC? (Unless it is Hunter, but if you can't get into the above two schools, you certainly ain't getting in there.) It doesn't make sense at all. While I understand that the schools are getting better, they are not there yet and so...private school IS the answer in NYC for parents who are able to do it.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 6:10 PM
Anon 3:16. your kids will never get to college if they attend shitty public elementary schools. you will have wasted your money! a good foundation is the key to a good education.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 6:15 PM
Anon 6:15, very funny. Most of the very successful people I know from NYC (Ivies, etc.) went public all the way. But pray, tell me, would you pay 25k for the likes of Dwight over the top 10 public schools in NYC? I wouldn't. And do you think PSes 6,234,3,41,199,87,Lab,Nest, Shuangwen, 321, 29, 58 and a ton of others in Queens are crap? If you have looked lately at the demographics of attendees, their parents can certainly afford 3.2m houses. I really don't know where you're getting your information from.
Why would my kids get shut out? The under 3 population has jumped 25% since 2001. Simple math, a lot of those kids are going to get shut out.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 6:22 PM
Anon 6:15, very funny. Most of the very successful people I know from NYC (Ivies, etc.) went public all the way. But pray, tell me, would you pay 25k for the likes of Dwight over the top 10 public schools in NYC? I wouldn't. And do you think PSes 6,234,3,41,199,87,Lab,Nest, Shuangwen, 321, 29, 58 and a ton of others in Queens are crap? If you have looked lately at the demographics of attendees, their parents can certainly afford 3.2m houses. I really don't know where you're getting your information from.
Why would my kids get shut out? The under 3 population has jumped 25% since 2001. Simple math, a lot of those kids are going to get shut out.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 6:23 PM
for anyone who is interested the Apdelphi listing that was on Brooklyn Properties just got moved to Corcoran (at the $1.9m price), it will be very interesting to see it they can move it without a further drop in the price.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 6:30 PM
The most important thing about this school issue is that your kids all need to study hard or else they will get stuck in Iraq...or something like that.
Posted by: west at November 1, 2006 6:36 PM
6:23 -- I don't know why you're dissing Dwight. Paris Hilton went there for a while and look how well she's doing. And as she referred to it to me: (that's another story!)--Dumb-White-Idiots-Getting-High-Together!
Posted by: west at November 1, 2006 6:40 PM
Good one Anon 6:36.
Posted by: C-Roy at November 1, 2006 6:45 PM
Please, Dwight is a very good school. If I remember correctly, Paris Hilton was asked to leave because of her antics. Enough said.
The point here is would you pay millions of dollars for a house and not pursue the private schools? I work in the public school system and wouldn't send my child to a NYC public middle school. This issue is the same whether or not you purchase a 3 million dollar home or live in an apt. We opted out of a top rated public school for private school, even though affording it is very difficult. We believe that the early years are more important foundation years. This is the time to have your child in a class that has less than 20 kids in it.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 6:53 PM
Just to clarify the poster who wants Anon 2:07 to get off the public school tip and I (the St. Ann's parent) are not one in the same. We're both Black so I understand the confusion. That said I'm a big supporter of public schools that work (even in the inner city) and I totally understand your strategy Anon 2:07.
With regards to being part of an underachieving minority, this is Brooklyn 2006. Overachieving minorities aren't en vogue either. You either make the cut or you don't.
Housing prices combined with the sheer number of young and growing families in NYC is jeopardizing the viability of certain neighborhoods and forcing great families out of Brooklyn. The schools haven't kept pace in most of the borough's nabe's. Big problem.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 7:19 PM
Just to clarify the poster who wants Anon 2:07 to get off the public school tip and I (the St. Ann's parent) are not one in the same. We're both Black so I understand the confusion. That said I'm a big supporter of public schools that work (even in the inner city) and I totally understand your strategy Anon 2:07.
With regards to being part of an underachieving minority, this is Brooklyn 2006. Overachieving minorities aren't en vogue either. You either make the cut or you don't.
Housing prices combined with the sheer number of young and growing families in NYC is jeopardizing the viability of certain neighborhoods and forcing great families out of Brooklyn. The schools haven't kept pace in most of the borough's nabe's. Big problem.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 7:47 PM
I'm sure that all the people buying in to the Meier bldg will get their kids in to St. Ann's though right? Why aren't we talking about this house. Gorgeous but needs work. What would a total gut job cost these days to make it look as spectacular as the one that BHS has on the park in FG?
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 7:48 PM
If you really think that private elementary school is the key to your children's success then by all means do whatever you have to do to send them there. I had a child in a private and we opted for a well regarded public instead because we felt that the private school was grossly overrated. Couldn't be more pleased with the public school- more economic diversity, racial diversity, small classes and kids from the same neighborhood- a real community. We live in an expensive house and I don't see how that has anything to do with where we send our chilren to school. How do you think these public schools become good- people actually send their children to them and then get involved with making them better.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 7:57 PM
Anon 6:23 move to the those school districts then, by all means move to tribeca, good luck in finding a 4,000 sf apartment for under $3.2M.
Your kid will get shut out because you have a NEGATIVE attitude and who would want you around. Admissions officers can sense this, I know in one short blog post! I'd HATE to have you around.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 8:32 PM
Anon 2:07 here - sorry about the schools rant. Schools have been on my mind lately. It's the stress of applying to preschools. A gut job - $200/sq ft minimum. That would get you central a/c, new floors, windows, new bathrooms, kitchen, deck, complete reconfiguration of house. $200 is very conservative and involves lots of negotiation and shopping around. $300 is more likely.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 8:32 PM
Anon 2:07/6:23 here - thanks for the positive wishes - who's the negative one here? I think my kids are adorable, smart, etc. but I'm not vainglorious enough to think that other kids aren't too and I can't read the adcom's minds.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 8:36 PM
black kids face numerous indignities in white schools. we deal/ because of white supremacy, the idea of suffering white children is too much to bear. (white children beat up black children too in case you thought that only black beast children were capable of violence--think hitler-klan-native american genocides you white supremicist ahistorical hypocrites)yhe fact thatn you have taken over cliiinton hill breaks my heart--it was a beatiful, multicultural, artistic community once! that's over--long live pig ears!
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 8:37 PM
And why do you not think I already live in Tribeca, zoned for 234, in a nice big doorman loft? Not everyone who reads brownstoner lives in Bk.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 8:37 PM
SCHOOLING:
7:57 you just made the one point about schooling that was missing in this discussion: how else do schools improve? If you are wealthy and have the choice of sending your kids to private or public, the public school might be a more rewarding education in the end, for both parent and child. Your presence in that school system -- by sheer dint of your CHOOSING to be there -- makes a huge difference.
For me, being the child of immigrants, I actually didn't have a choice: ironically, I had to go to private school, since that was the sole reason my parents worked their asses off -- to give me a better chance. Private school represented The American Dream to them.
Today, I have the highly educated, well-off luxury of considering sending my children to public school. And I think I am leaning towards public. But that's a luxury. I want them to be better in a different way than my parents wanted me to be better.
THE HOUSE:
Please people, explain to me how this is a "mansion" as opposed to every other friggin row house in the whole of brownstone brooklyn. Smells of scam to me. And I agree with the poster who says "dripping with detail" is not necessarily an appealing quality.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 8:39 PM
Ugh, this thread. I'm beginning to get the view of gentrification of CH...whites wanting the houses but not wanting (or their kids) to associate with the blacks who live here. Maybe they hope for Black flight. Except for the black Caribbean mammy. She can stay.
Posted by: supergirl at November 1, 2006 8:41 PM
anon 8:37 wishful thinking! if you lived in tribeca, you'd be at nobu now, nanny with kids, and your kids would be at friends or st. ann's because you'd know everyone on the board at those schools or at least a few important people to write letters of recommendations for your mediocre kids.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 9:24 PM
Anon 9:24 - you have an inflated opinion of those of us in Tribeca.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 9:58 PM
This is just sad. I'm moving to Montclair. Good riddance to the lot of you.
Posted by: anon at November 1, 2006 9:58 PM
"Ugh, this thread. I'm beginning to get the view of gentrification of CH...whites wanting the houses but not wanting (or their kids) to associate with the blacks who live here. Maybe they hope for Black flight. Except for the black Caribbean mammy. She can stay. "
well stated
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 10:03 PM
Montclair - same issues. For the price of the housing, mediocre public schools. Lots of kids go private there. Try Summit or Milburn.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 10:04 PM
Stop breeding already. It's enough we have to step around the brats, now we have to read around them?
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 10:38 PM
supergirl, sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder and are taking it out on some whiney people on this blog. News flash. Whites have not taken over. Now it is a diverse, mixed, neighborhood. For the past 45 years or so it has been 98% black - not diverse in any sense of the word - after all the whites fled the old neighborhood for the suburbs and fell into abject poverty and crime. It's finally nice again with diversity (racially - though less and less economically), with many artists and people who are friendly and neighborly. In fact, I'd venture to guess this was the first time this neighborhood has been truly "diverse" and not just a white moneyed neighborhood or a poor black one.
If you have an issue with this rather annoying thread, fine. Just get off your racist high horse and stop generalizing. Most residents of Clinton Hill actually like the diversity and are friendly with their neighbors. The exceptions I've seen are generally people like you with preconceptions about anyone new to the neighborhood who is not black.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 2, 2006 12:28 AM
Just get off your racist high horse and stop generalizing.
^
Back to you :)
Posted by: supergirl at November 2, 2006 12:45 AM
God, this blogs comments are getting tedious! Can we just talk about brownstones for a change?
Posted by: morkfrombrooklyn at November 2, 2006 3:24 AM
can't we all just get along..what would George Bush say if he were reading this blog
Posted by: anon at November 2, 2006 8:09 AM
"George Bush say if he were reading this blog"
You're doing a heckuva job, brownie?
Posted by: morkfrombrooklyn at November 2, 2006 9:18 AM
I made the comment about this being a support for the 3.8 house.
My parents bought their house on the next block for 75k, rented out a lot of it, and used the income to send us to St. Ann's.
At the time, we were the only kids in the area attending SAS, and the area wasn't particularly good. Guy got killed at the bodega next to the old keyfood/associated back in 1990.
To give some realistic valuation measures:
My parents rent out the ground floor apt of their 25' brownstone (with extension) for 2050 + heat.
Extrapolating based on rent roll (assuming a rent roll of 10-12k and a multiple of 12.5-40), you come up with a max price of well under 2MM, which seems reasonable.
So if you buy this, you are either
a)trying to get a big contiguous space
b)paying 1.2MM+ for detail
Either way, this thing is way overpriced.
Though if it sells, I'll tell my parents to put theirs on the market and move.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 2, 2006 10:15 AM
None of the mentioned Clinton Hill/Fort Greene schools (PS 20, PS 11, IS113) is 99 percent black--the current Dept. of Ed. statistics show them around 85 percent, but my guess is that the upper grades have more black students than the lower grades.
Why is it that a school that is 85 percent white is called "integrated" and a school that is 85 percent black is "overwhelmingly minority"?
The NYC public school register has this racial breakdown:
Asian / Pac. Isl 137,095 13.45%
Hispanic 393,542 38.61%
Black 330,040 32.38%
White 147,365 14.46%
Posted by: Anonymous at November 2, 2006 10:22 AM
"your kids will never get to college if they attend shitty public elementary schools. you will have wasted your money! a good foundation is the key to a good education."
Just wondering - if your kid was tops at a NYC public school, which are (justly or unjustly) perceived as "bad" or "tough" wouldn't they almost look better than if they were one of numerous overachievers at a private school? I went to a good private school on LI and many colleges favor public education - there were kids with way lower test scores and grades from my town who went to a better school than I did, because they went to public school. Just wondering.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 2, 2006 10:40 AM
Schools and pedigree make a difference, but at the end of the day, it's the individual child and his/her parents that really determine the child's success.
My brother and I are products of NYC public schools. We both attended predominantly white elementary schools (mine in Canarsie and his in Bay Ridge). We then attended a public jhs in Bushwick (*gasp*) which was predominantly black/latino, and required an entrance exam and uniforms for its' students. I went on to Bronx Science and he went to Stuyvesant; each of these schools is predominantly Asian.
I have friends who went to private schools and/or boarding schools like Exeter, Andover, Hotchkiss, Nightingale, or Trinity. Others went to the local zoned schools like South Shore or Canarsie. Most, if not all of us are doing relatively well, despite the differences in our educational paths. However, the common denominator is that we all had parents who were actively involved in our educations. That means showing up at PTA meetings, speaking with teachers, and staying up your kids' @$$ and making sure they do what they need to do to excel. I'm not saying that you should send your kid to school next to a crack house, but as long as physical safety is not an issue and there are a reasonable amount of resources available, I don't see the big deal with spending all that money for private school--- especially if it will pose any kind of financial hardship.
Posted by: NYCer at November 2, 2006 11:39 AM
In response to Hal who asked about the house at 435 Clinton Avenue, it is estimated to cost between $50,000 and $75,000 to restore the front fascade of the house. This cost was taken into consideration when pricing it.
Posted by: Nancy Giddins at November 2, 2006 12:43 PM
Anon 10:40 am. I am surprised you even got into college being from Long Island. Are there even private schools there? Oh yes, like the one that lacrosse player from Duke went to....good you got out of that GOD awful place! If I were a college admissions officer I would never ever ever accept anyone from there.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 2, 2006 1:28 PM
Supergirl @ 8:41: You're right. Too bad people can't handle the truth.
Anon 10:38: I'm with ya.
I've chosen to live a yummy child free existence, but if I did have kids, I doubt I'd even contemplate sending them to private school. What's the point of living in the city if you're not going to interact with a diverse group of people? I'm talking about financials, backgrounds, education, social and political views (even though I don't associate with Republicans) as well as of course, race.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 2, 2006 3:10 PM
Wow, Anon at 1:28, Anon at 10:40, aren't you an ignorant a**hole. I am not a fan of Long Island myself, and no longer live there, but if you think that there aren't d-uchebags elsewhere, think again. In fact, making comments like that pretty much qualifies you as one.
And anon at 3:10 "I'm talking about financials, backgrounds, education, social and political views (even though I don't associate with Republicans)" - great for sounding like a horrible hypocrite and making all Democrats look like sh-t. Keep up the good work. Makes me so proud to be one of you.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 2, 2006 3:48 PM
Wow, 3:48, tell me...did you lose your sense of humor along the way or you just never had one? Lighten up, kid.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 2, 2006 5:26 PM
I love how expensive listings bring out the best in those who cannot afford them. ;-)
Posted by: lp at November 2, 2006 6:34 PM
DWL @ 6:34...nice
Posted by: Anonymous at November 2, 2006 6:46 PM
i can't afford it myself...
Posted by: lp at November 2, 2006 7:12 PM
College is a waste of time. My kids are going to sit around and chill out. Je-sus, GET A GRIP people.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 3, 2006 12:11 AM
338 Clinton Avenue is owned by Antoon who is one smart or very lucky guy! The man was buyinig and investing in Fort Greene-Clinton Hill decades ago and now his investments are paying off handsomely! Antoon is the owner and operator of the stair repair and installation company Soxco. He owns a bunch of brownstones and townhouses in the hood. He use to own that beautiful mansion at 1 South Portland but sold it for $1.2M back in 2000. Jerry Minsky at Corcoran was the broker and at the time the sale price was a neigborhood high. Looking back it was a steal! I guess Antoon is no longer is the business of giving freebies! $3.2M is a huge number! I hope he gets his due because he deserves everything he gets for believing in our hood when very few people did. God bless him! I wonder if he's planning to retire and liquidate his real estate holdings. If so, look out! The man was smart to invest in some of the best properties on the best blocks in FG/CH, e.g., 338 Clinton Avenue, 340 Clinton Avenue (corner house), 1 South Portland, 331 Vanderbilt, 47 South Oxford, etc. He probably owns over $10MM in brownstones and the guy came into the nabe as simply a hardworking repair guy -- not a real estate tycoon!
Posted by: SuperAnon at November 4, 2006 2:48 AM
Brownstoner, you should profile Antoon's story on this website. "From Rags to Riches!"
Posted by: Anonymous at November 4, 2006 2:57 AM
ditto..to the above two posts.. Antoon is a great guy
Posted by: Anonymous at November 7, 2006 11:33 PM
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