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November 16, 2006

Front Page Forum: Creaky Floorboards

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Our hallway floorboards are not in the best of shape. On the lower floors, there are a couple of patches where you can feel the floorboards flex a little when you walk on them, adding a little bounce to your step. On the top floor, they are more stable, but the whole hallway creaks a lot, which is not insignificant because it's the floor where the kids' bedrooms are and, as any parent will tell you, once your child is asleep, you want him/her to stay that way. So we're wondering what people would recommend for both situations? How big (or small) an ordeal is this potentially?




Posted by Brownstoner at 11:01 AM | Comments (49)
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We have the same problem at our apt in Carrol Gardens. Some people sprinkle baby powder in the cracks between the floor boards (which didn't work for us). We had Verrazano Flooring come and take a look and they said the only remedy was tearing them out, and reinstalling the floor "properly" to avoid creaking in the future.

If anyone has any remedy they know of, other than a complete re-installation, please post any info you have!!

And yes, we became aware of just how creaky our floors were after having a baby. We didn't notice too much before..

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 11:11 AM

yes, please post. I have the same problem, with the further complication that the creaky floorboards (in the hallways) are carpeted.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 11:15 AM

Nail 'em down to the joists with some big finishing nails and use a nail set to sink the heads.

Posted by: Hal at November 16, 2006 11:23 AM

I've heard the same - but nail at a 45 degree angle so that they stay in.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 11:32 AM

Isn't that just a temporary fix? Many of our boards have been re-nailed, and they eventually start to creak again..

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 11:33 AM

The only way to really fix it is to rip em up and the subfloor and put in a new subfloor and floor.

I wonder too about running the boards in the other direction. Would that look too nuts?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 11:33 AM

From the picture it looks like this flooring is actually the sub floor with no finished flooring on top.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 11:37 AM

Try this site:
http://www.squeaknomore.com/
I had squeaky floors once. Bought a kit for ~$45 from a company called O'Berry Enterprises (800) 459-8428 (not sure if that number was operational).

It fixed the squeaking. Wasn't around long enough afterwards to tell if the squeak came back 1 or 2 years later.

You might want to have a handyman do this if you aren't 100% confident about doing this on your own.

Great floors by the way.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 11:44 AM

We took ours up, leveled the joists and then put plywood down before reinstalling the planks. But we were doing a whole renovation at the time. If you just want a temporary fix, guess nails are the way to go.

Posted by: yente at November 16, 2006 11:44 AM

Whatever you do, don't use finishing nails- they'll only wiggle back out. Get flooring nails; they'll have a twisted, fluted shank that will resist backing out.Obviously you want to be sure that you're nailing into a joist, and try to angle the nail while driving it.

In truth, though, what you're seeing there IS the subfloor and probably had a more stable layer of oak over it.

Posted by: houseowax at November 16, 2006 11:52 AM

Last Christmas my wife bought me a brad nailer, finish nailer and compressor combo from Amazon.(Actually, i bought it, but she wrapped it up and gave it to me.)

I have used the finish nailer to secure loose parquet flooring in my parlor. I have used the brad nailer to secure squeaky hallway planks to the joist and stairs to their framing.

One of the best gifts i've gotten in a while.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 11:59 AM

Mr.B.

Speaking from experience (with both a kid and a creaky hallway floor) I'd suggest not doing anything too drastic.In a year or two your kids will sleep through ANYTHING. Creaky floors are a part of old house living--IMO trying to solve every "problem" like this could drive anyone crazy

Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 16, 2006 12:07 PM

Uh, get a real actual floor? This is designed as a subfloor. It never ceases to amaze my how these obviously suburban raised clowns move into the city without any actual knowledge of home maintenance and in many cases neighborhoods in general. Posting on an internet message board to get bad advice is the only solution...

Posted by: Sleb at November 16, 2006 12:29 PM

Hey 12:29 idiot,
Yeah - real smart to lay a new floor on top of an existing, creaky subfloor. Great advice, guy.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 12:34 PM

In 16 years, you will be very grateful to be able to hear your offspring sneaking around the house. Til then, the squeaking is good conditioning to help them sleep through car alarms and passing ambulances. Our Child loves the country, except for one thing--she finds it hard to get to sleep at night because it's so spookily quiet. Now that's a fine city-raised child! (PS I think your floor is cool-looking.)

Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at November 16, 2006 12:45 PM

OK, I admit nailing them down is a quick fix at best. All the posts above have some value on their own. You have to make your own value judgement. Do you want a short term fix now? Do you want it done right and are willing to pay? Or are you like me and one poster above who doesn't mind a creaky spot in the floor.

In my house and many I've seen, these old southern yellow pine floorboards serve as the floor. If there was a parquet or other wood floor originally, it would be evidenced by numerous small nail holes.

Posted by: Hal at November 16, 2006 1:06 PM

We have a similar problem. Incredibly creaky stairs: great to detect an intruder, and kids sneaking in/out but not so great when trying to walk away after putting the baby to sleep. We have decided to try a foam layer then carpet the staircase with something non slip...Any suggestions?

Posted by: Argyle Road at November 16, 2006 1:19 PM

Home Depot sells floor tile with a removable backing. Peel and Stick!!! oh sorry that was probably the previous owner of your brownstone

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 1:23 PM

Thanks for all the advice...one interesting thing to note is that this photo is of the parlor floor. In the high Victorian era houses like this, the parlor floor was traditionally covered in wall-to-wall carpet, which was considered the fancy way to go. So these floors never would have had another layer of wood floor.

Posted by: Brownstoner at November 16, 2006 1:35 PM

Hey Sleb..."suburban raised clowns"? Are you implying they don't have wood floors in the suburbs?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 1:37 PM

Gee - a good sanding and your choice of stain and then polyU and they will look amazing. The wood is great - why noe bring it out and stop worrying about ultimate quietness. Old houses = character = creaks.

Just manage the creaks, little ones versus big ones. When a floor needs radical 'surgery' then you go for it. Otherwise I think just prettying up the floors is the way to go.

Jerry

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 1:45 PM

Some thoughts:

First, there are a fair number of old houses out there that never had a subfloor to begin with. Lots of them had soft-ish pine, too (although the old stuff is harder than what you'd get today). Looks like both apply to you.

I've got the same dilema in a house in DC. Ignoring it while I rent up here for the time being.

Second, be *very* careful fooling around with sanders on an old pine floor. Some are thick and hearty, but you can do a whole lot of irreparable damage in a hurry - especially if it's a tongue and groove, where the joints will start popping if you sand too thin.

If you truly want lasting quiet, the only real way to do it is pull up the floor and lay down some decent plywood under it. Not sure whether you can then re-lay what's there now...probably not, at least at reasonable cost.

Posted by: BeenThere at November 16, 2006 1:58 PM

Is there a children's version of Tylenol PM?

Posted by: Gristléd Bünching at November 16, 2006 2:07 PM

Hey Schleb,
What's it to you if people want to use this as their floor? Mine had tongue and groove. I put subfloor under it, finished it and it looks fantastic! So, I should care that some anonymous blogger says it's wrong to do that? Yeah, go and pay $15 sq ft for a similar look.

Posted by: yente at November 16, 2006 2:19 PM

B: the likelyhood of wall to wall carpet in the Victorian era seems incorredt to me. Wall to wall carpet is a result of machine made broadloom which became cheap after WWII, at which time many people threw large, dusty antique Persian rugs into dumpsters.

Are rugs, painted oilcloth and even linoleum would have been more likely.

Posted by: Hal at November 16, 2006 2:26 PM

Watch Tom Silva fix a squeaky floor at www.thisoldhouse.com. O'Berry Enterprises gives a list of businesses that carry the product but don't bother with Home Depot, it's not available in the store. Your best bet is online. Good luck.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 2:31 PM

Anyone know what it would cost per sf to install a new sub floor after putting up the entire old one?

Many of us with older homes have floors that are unlevel, no noise, just wavy ;-)

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 2:48 PM

These are not subfloors, they are the floor. Most probably covered with rugs. Old heart pine wood, which is only available nowadays if salvaged. The trees are much too young these days to have heart pine.
We have the same issue and the bouncy areas are where the boards do not extend up to the joist and over the years the tongue of the board breaks off allowing the board to bounce in relation to adjacent boards. In our house, some of the boards snapped and I had to support them from below with blocking attached to adjacent boards or the joist. The good thing is that any nail holes or even countersunk screw heads covered with wood putty go unnoticed in a floor this age.
Sanding these floors can be dangerous and you may lose the patina of the wood, which is the reason for having these floors in the first place. Since our basement ceiling had to be demolished, I got at the boards from there and supported them with boards between the joists. But, for squeaks, flooring nails at an angle into the joist are the way to go. Besides, it's part of the old house experience. The OHJ had an article last year about these floors and their repair.

Posted by: Yeshwant at November 16, 2006 2:55 PM

good god, is this what I have to look forward to when I (finally!) buy a house!. I understood about 10% of what Yeshant just wrote.

If one is buying an "unrenovated" brownstone how does one check for these things.

Thanks,

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 3:07 PM

"the likelyhood of wall to wall carpet in the Victorian era seems incorredt to me. Wall to wall carpet is a result of machine made broadloom which became cheap after WWII"

Right about broadloom after WW II, but wrong about wall to wall carpet. In Victorian times this was made up of narrow machine made strips of carpet sewed together. That's why floors were made of pine and designed to be covered throughout most of the 19th Century. Late in the century parquet floors (with oriental rugs scattered around) became very popular.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 16, 2006 3:22 PM

As we have many floor experts in the room can I ask whether anyone knows a cheap, reliable place to source reclaimed wide plank pine? I have what looks a lot like Brownstoner's floor in parts of my house but not throughout. Thanks and sorry to hijack.

Posted by: TW at November 16, 2006 3:29 PM

"good god, is this what I have to look forward to when I (finally!) buy a house!"

Exactly Anon. 3:07 if you buy an OLD house. They're not for everyone--that's why somany (most??) people prefer new construction.You have to be a littlwe bit crazy (like me) to own an old house :-)

BTW, there's something wrong with TypeKey--I can't sign in, which is why there's nolittle symbol next tomy name.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at November 16, 2006 3:29 PM

The old heart pine floors are really beautiful. Once sanded , the smell alone is great. Anyway, you see the knots and their rainbows of colors, the grain, even knotholes. I laugh when I see a factory made flooring offered to LOOK like this.

These floors are beautiful, have lasted the test of time (hopefully) and deserve to be prettied up and then enjoyed. It's part of the beauty of an old house. Don't overlook that element.

I pulled up 7-8 layers of linoleum and carpeting to discover my 4-5 inch old heart pine floors. They are nailed right onto the joists. The number of nails and staples I and my g/c removed was unreal. BUT....
1) seeing the entire floor sanded gave a perspective that was so pretty.
2) I am staining them a dark mocha brown and then polying them. Just saw the first coat of stain this week and it is so nice...

I grew up in a brownstone with the parquet floors - also beautiful.

But these pine floors are beautiful and we are going to really enjoy them.

Don't be so afraid of emphasizing some of the old house's characteristics. We have knot holes that are holes. We have some patched areas where we know boards were replaced after the house went electric. We are leaving them because we like the charm of the visual lines of age. Kind of like looking at historical timeline markings.

Jerry

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 3:46 PM

I have these same pine floors and they are currently being sanded. Anyone have advice on stain colors? Mine seem very yellow as they are (they were covered in carpet for decades) but I don't really know what color to expect them to be once they are sanded and I need to investigate stain colors now. If I put stain on white oak, would that be a decent test for color?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 4:04 PM

Another easy solution is to get carpet runners for the hallways. It may not stop the creaking outright but will dampen the sound and perhaps help the kiddies sleep more soundly.

I agree with the earlier posters who advocated for keeping the creak so you can hear them sneak out/in when they're teenagers. Though it doesn't always work. I grew up in a townhouse with a few creaky stairs. I knew exactly which steps were the noisiest and always skipped those when I "come home late". Maybe when your kids get to that age you should remove some of the flooring nails to add more creak to the house!

Posted by: Whitbo at November 16, 2006 5:12 PM

Anon 404:

Be careful about staining pine versus oak. There are significant differences. Loews is where we got our stain (forget the name offhand), but the brochure had all the color chips with side by side oak vs pine compares.

The color of my pine floors before sanding was very varied due to all the years of life:
linoleum leached a black oil stain in some parts, some parts were painted various colors, other parts got linoleum colors like a light red.

The sanding took everything away and I was left with a uniform white/cream pine wood color.

I did not opt for a light or even clear stain. Although the grain and knots would stand out, that country floor look is not really what a Brooklyn brick/frame circa 1880-1900 house would look well with, in our opinion.

Jerry

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 5:50 PM

TW @ 3:29, I got some flooring for from agedwoods.com a few years back. It was beautiful, but the pine scratched if you even looked at it. They have close-outs and specials on their site. *Note, I'm talking past tense because I sold the house, I didn't take up the floor.

Posted by: Yente at November 16, 2006 6:39 PM

Mr. Brownstoner,

anon 2:31 is absolutely right about the squeak-no-more breakaway screws seen on This Old House w/ carpenter Tom Silva. Don't bother with anything else - these will work beautifully...

O'Berry Enterprises, Inc.
5306 Business Parkway #110
Ringwood, IL 60072
800-459-8428
www.squeaknomore.com

Related product you'll want to fill in holes made by the screws:

"Blend-Fil Pencil" wax crayons are available in a range of colors. They are manufactured by Minwax (www.minwax.com).

Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 8:55 PM

Thanks Yente

Posted by: TW at November 17, 2006 9:54 AM

"Good God, is this what I have to look foward to...."

Ha. Ha. YES! I admire all of the above posters who have come up with these creative solutions. I had so many problems with my old floors, including sagging joists, broken boards, water damage to the floors, inability to find the right parquets for the rooms, etc. etc. that I gave up and tore up everything, fixed the joists and laid new subfloor and new parquets.

Posted by: donatella at November 17, 2006 1:53 PM

Anon 2:31 and 8:55 thanks for the squeaknomore link. Looks like just what I need. Absolutely! did you have to predrill holes into pine floor when you used them?
Jerry, did you floors lose their pumpkin pine look / patina after being sanded?

Posted by: Yeshwant at November 17, 2006 8:39 PM

I wish I had read this dialogue about a year ago, but I learned a lot on my own. Our old brownstone in Bed/Stuy had all the typical floor issues: layers of linoleum, paint, soft spots, creaky spots, etc. The floor in our home is not unlike many floors that I see around: simple pine tongue and groove boards about 4 1/2" by 7/8" thick. No subfloor. My house is not one of the grand ones, but a charming old house with many of the old details remaining. The floors were worn and beat up and I discovered that the worst problems were mostly the result of bad carpentry when plumbing and electrical was put in. The floor boards were ripped up (not very carefully), the joists were channelled out to make room for pipes and electric lines, and then the boards were nailed back sometimes with little or no support. I found that all the soft spots were the result of this invasive process. Where floor boards don't rest firmly on joists, they will move and they will crack. Any movement will result in noisy floors. At our home, we decided to repair the floors where needed, sand and poly. Finding old boards to replace the ones needing replacing turned out impossible. No one is salvaging old pine boards worth re-using, in my opinion. And I was only up for replacing the problem areas, not an entire floor. Finishing nails at 45 degrees solved the noise problems. I will investigate the suggestion of better nails, but simply nailing the boards down to stablize them is the answer and angling the nails is key. Using a nail punch to sink the nails in makes the nails disappear and a stronger fit. Our old boards have so many nails and holes in them from various things in the past that a few more nail holes didn't matter. Pine is a soft wood, but it sands really well. We found that we were able to stain the new boards to closely match the old boards which we did stain also because we wanted a somewhat darker color.

The hardest problem we encountered was in matching the thickness of the original floor. 7/8" is not readily available and I chose not to spend the money to buy thicker wood that is available and plane it down. I realize I comprimized here, but I am not unhappy with the results. Instead, I used 3/4" boards (common pine) with a 1/4" layer of plywood underneath. These two dimensions actually added up to the existing 7/8" thickness of the old boards, and where there was a thickness discrepancy, the sanding process evened it out. I did work out a tongue and groove arrangement that worked well with the boards I was not replacing as well as fitting the new boards to each other. I got to know my floor intimately. And, as things go, when I had ripped up the bad boards, I discovered it was a great time to replace old plumbing, get rid of old gas lines, and take advantage of the open floors to snake in some new electrical lines. I also was able to repair some of the hatched jobs done to the floor joists. My floors are real solid now, where before there were places that felt like I could fall through, and the quiet walk is blissful. I didn't spend a lot to make these repairs and the finished floor areas have convinced us that repairing and restoring the existing floors was the way to go with our old home.

Posted by: Keith at November 18, 2006 8:59 AM

I wonder if anyone is still reading this. Keith, great post. Question: How did you get the tongue an groove on the new boards? Did you use new pine floor boards? Where did you get those?

Posted by: Yeshwant at November 20, 2006 12:36 PM

To get the tongue and groove in the new boards I did the intensive task with a router. It wasn't so difficult, really. Just repetitive and loud! but earplugs came to the rescue.

I simply used 1x6 common pine in 10' lengths from Dykes, ripped down to size (cutting them lengthwise on a table saw) and then went at them with my router. It did take almost surgical planning and measuring, but being careful is the name of the game anyways. The results were more than satisfactory and I am moving on to other rooms in the house doing the same thing. As with the rest of the house, I am looking forward to the day when it is finished.

Posted by: Keith at November 20, 2006 10:15 PM

Hi!
Could anyone tell me how to fill in the gaps between floor boards. So much dust!
Tracy

Posted by: tracey at December 6, 2006 6:43 AM

Seems like everyone has squeeky floors like I have.

Posted by: James Woods at December 16, 2006 1:56 PM

I have 1830's original heart pine floors that we just sanded. Beautiful with just a sealer and matte poly. Problem was in matching new pine floors in additions to get a color consistent to the heart... Ended up using a maple (orange) and then a coat of provincial (brown) to get close. Any other ideas on making new pine planks to color as heart pine?

Posted by: cbnga at January 11, 2007 11:07 PM

Hello guys! I have some questions. I mean need some help.
Where i can read more about this problema?
Please, don't derect me to http://google.com i know about it.
Please derect me with some links.
thanks!
UCAKK^^

Posted by: ucakkurzxg at January 12, 2007 11:24 AM

Oh my God, We have the same problem with
having beautiful 1830's pine floors and
trying to match the color with new wide pine plank flooring. Ours are a pumpkin pine color and I can't seem to find a stain that matches.

Posted by: custardcup at January 13, 2007 7:49 PM

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