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November 14, 2006
Cover-Up At The Washington Condos?
The Washington Condominium at 35 Underhill Avenue in Prospect Heights has been a long time coming. As blogger Set Speed first mentioned on Friday, the building finally got its Temporary C of O last week after countless delays. His announcement stirred up a rather contentious debate in the comments section over some of the quick-fixes that the developer has performed to get around the FAR calculation problems of Mezzaninegate, photos of which mysteriously arrived in our mailbox yesterday. The most bizarre? He reportedly has reduced the ceiling height in the mezzanines from seven feet to five feet (the point at which the space is considered storage rather than living space) by building up plywood platforms (see photos). One commenter on the Set Speed thread said that DOB was okay with this approach and that it had happened at a number of the other Scarano projects with similar violations. Can this be true? Does anyone know if using plywood like this is up to code? Seems like the Fire Department might have something to say about it. If all is not on the up-and-up, what does this mean for the building and those who already handed over their down payments last year?
The Washington Gets Temporary C of O? [Set Speed]
Checking In on the Washington Condos [Brownstoner] GMAP
Comments
Why wouldn't using plywood like this be up to code? I mean, it's basically a wooden platform.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 9:29 AM
Of course, as soon as people move in they're going to rip out those platforms and use the space as a mezzanine.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 9:31 AM
It's a legal sham action. the real estate agent even tells the buyers that once someone moves in, "they can rip out the plywood". Then what happens? the building can lose its C of O. That's what and everyone is totally screwed. No refinancing , no reselling, etc. I'd be scared to live in a building where the fire dept. can't gain access to the windows, etc. They would have to crawl with all their gear over the plywood. God help us all.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 9:39 AM
There is a tremendous difference between temporary and permanent C of Os. If I were a buyer, I would be very uncomfortable with what is happening at this building right now. I wonder what the banks issuing mortgages for these units think about all of this?
Getting a temporary C of O is no big deal. The permanent one? Caveat Emptor, big time...
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 9:40 AM
why should plywood be a problem? Its under most floors anyway.
Once Permanent CofO , of course will be ripped out. And in future won't make a bit if difference to banks, city or anyone else.
How many 1960's apt condo buildings called 1 bdrm with dining alcove are now 2 bedrooms? Happens all the time.
No change of C/O and no bank problems.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 9:51 AM
As I already wrote on Set Speed:
I guess as a law abiding citizen who cares about the well being of fellow citizens I need to protect them for themselves and stop them for doing lawless stuff to their apartment.
I already put a mark in my calendar to notify the DOB to check out the mezzanine spaces in Aug 2008.
Have fun!!
PS: I don't ever or will be in contract at the Washington...
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 10:00 AM
9:51, that is the dumbest thing I have ever read.
what happens if there is a fire in the dead space under the plywood? The fire dept. would have no idea from where it is coming. when it erupted , the whole place would be engulfed, esp. with dry plywood and studs. do you want your kids living there? this doesn't happen all the time.
by the way, no plans were filed for this.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 10:01 AM
I think that someone plunking down 400k + for a new pad should enjoy the right to not have to crawl around the mezzanine of their new apartment for a year or two, or however long it might take to get the permanent C of O.
This is dishonest, unsafe, and really weird; makes one question the integrity of the whole deal - I can't believe that banks will finance this kind of thing, nor can I believe that the FDNY will let people close on these units as is. What happens if a fire starts under those stupid plywood platforms?
It's just not right, and probably a harbinger of more serious problems down the road.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 10:05 AM
I'm interested in what kind of disclosure the developer is putting in the prospectus. Plans do actually get rejected by the AG.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 10:17 AM
sounds like they might have to try the air rights from adjacent buildings.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 10:23 AM
there's no amendments concerning this and no disclosures so far. the attitude is : close as fast as developer Isaac Fischman can, take the money and he gets out of the picture. let the sucker purchasers deal with the legal issues while he moves on to his new project on Bergen St.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 10:24 AM
As an architect I would never recommend that someone buy these units. Where to start? From a zoning standpoint the DOB doesn't care b/c the developer complies with the letter of the law however spurious band-aid. The banks may not care b/c most are happy with a TCO b/c they assume the building will eventually get a CO. Safey wise if the plywood box can support the live load capacity of 40 lbs/sq. ft. it is fine. The area below the mezzanine must be sprinklered. If the DOB does catch people removing the new mezzanines violations will be issued and the building will be saddled with that and the developer can wash his hands of it and say it wasn't his fault and will never halp the building get the CO.
In my point of view most problems at most buildings can be worked out but this is a nightmare. The developer got caught and they are trying like the devil to get out and instead of doing the right thing like buy more air rights or reconfigure the FAR and remove a floor off of the building they are hoping the broker can do a con job on the buyers.
STAY AWAY
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 11:14 AM
As an architect I would never recommend that someone buy these units. Where to start? From a zoning standpoint the DOB doesn't care b/c the developer complies with the letter of the law however spurious band-aid. The banks may not care b/c most are happy with a TCO b/c they assume the building will eventually get a CO. Safey wise if the plywood box can support the live load capacity of 40 lbs/sq. ft. it is fine. The area below the mezzanine must be sprinklered. If the DOB does catch people removing the new mezzanines violations will be issued and the building will be saddled with that and the developer can wash his hands of it and say it wasn't his fault and will never halp the building get the CO.
In my point of view most problems at most buildings can be worked out but this is a nightmare. The developer got caught and they are trying like the devil to get out and instead of doing the right thing like buy more air rights or reconfigure the FAR and remove a floor off of the building they are hoping the broker can do a con job on the buyers.
STAY AWAY
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 11:14 AM
This is happening in all Scarano buildings, not that big a deal. Way to fuel a fire.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 11:55 AM
i agree with people here but have one more thing to add, what if you were trapped under that plywood? also, what if your son or daughter cut a hole into the plywood and used it as a clubhouse or a fort which would be totally unsafe. also this area would be a great place for rats to live and other pests. lastly, it is very hard to get stains up from plywood so say goodbye to using this area as a breakfast nook or a guest kitchen.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 12:05 PM
"way to fuel a fire" 11:15
is that a pun or double entendre??
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 12:21 PM
I think great space for reenactment of Being John Malcovich.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 12:26 PM
I have a suspicion that people posting such negative and ludicrous remarks are in someway involved with the project that can't sell one unit across the street at 647 Washington. No one here really knows what they are talking about. And yes I did buy a unit at The Washington!!
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 12:32 PM
Well then, 11:55, if "this is happening in all scarano buildings", then the word needs to get out that buyers are facing potential permanent C of O challenges so that they don't get ripped off.
And maybe our electeds need to change the rules about this kind of nonsense. (How about dismantling some of these buildings at developer's expense to send a message?) And where the hell is the fire dept. in all of this? If the broker gets a statement from the FDNY that the plywood platforms are cool it would quell my concerns. But I bet everyone involved in this deal is pretty upset that it's public info now.
"Way to fuel a fire." Yeah, 11:55, you're not kidding, are you? I'm inclined to believe that the plywood layer "platform boxes" are incredibly dangerous. You're enclosing oxygen in a flammable box that you can't get access to. LOTS of things could spark a fire under there that might smolder for a while and spread underneath the platform.
If I were a buyer with money down I would contact a new attorney ASAP to get my money back.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 12:38 PM
Just love the comment about the kids sawing into the platform and building a fort. I think there are parental controls for that. Or, if there aren't, there should be. I know I managed somehow to keep my kids from drilling into the stair to my sunken living room....
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 12:39 PM
i bought a unit and i'm goddam scared now. for safety reasons and for the fact that i might lose my life savings. Isaaac Fischman , go to HELL.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 12:45 PM
12:45, I feel for you. But maybe it's all cool - contact someone at the FDNY and see if this is OK. Maybe it is. If not, you'd probably have a pretty valid reason to get your deposit back.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 1:01 PM
I had the same initial reaction as some others re: fire safety. But the space is not like a cock croft (architects, am I using the right word) that connects from space-to-space, so I am not sure how dangerous it really is. Of course, fill the void with fire retardant foam and it would be (1) safer, (2) harder to just rip out later, and (3) unsuitable as a fort for the really intrepid young folk. ("Billy, where are you going with the Sawzall?")
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 1:11 PM
This whole debacle is unbelievable - how is this able to happen, and Scarano is still allowed to practice as an architect? I think that everyone involved, other than us buyers, has behaved reprehensibly on this project. We are buying homes, here, which no one (Fischman, Scarano, Aguayo + Huebner, their lawyers, etc.) seems to give a shit about. This is my (and my husband's) first apartment! It's supposed to be an exicting moment in our lives. Instead, its making me want to rent forever. Especially since we have lost more than two years waiting for an apartment — we've missed good prices, low interest rates. At this point, we will have to rent forever, if we pull out. Thanks a lot, Fischman and co.
Posted by: Anon at November 14, 2006 1:12 PM
What says you, Aguayo + Huebener? Surely you are reading these posts...
Do you care about your reputation in the Brooklyn housing market?
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 1:23 PM
Uhh.. as a lawyer, all I can say is you would be an idiot not to pull your deposit. Even if it means renting for the rest of your life. If you can't sell what you bought, believe me, you didn't buy anything to begin with.
Posted by: anon at November 14, 2006 1:45 PM
The A. children at A&G are a joke/ At least the male one. He didn't bother to show up at our closing as our broker. Informed us one day before.
Now they are peddling these death traps.
Shame.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 1:45 PM
would everybody who's so worried that spontaneous combustion will occur in this plywood box just chill? i mean, really, how do y'all leave your apartments every day without worrying you'll come home to charred rubble?
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 1:47 PM
charred rubble? i think the concern here is revolving around charred deposit money.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 1:56 PM
you people who are buying into have legitimate concerns re:CofO status and the like.
Those of you calling this a fire hazard/child hazard are neurotic nutjobs.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 2:02 PM
The C of O issue is definitely a difficult one, because many buildings close with a TCO and the TCO can commonly last for over a year due to different reasons; for example, I've been living in my current apartment for almost a year and we still have a TCO due to completely unrelated construction work being done by the city which tore up our sidewalk.
My impression is that once the initial inspections are done and closings have taken place, further inspections will only take place on areas where there are still outstanding items/violations - so if there was signoff on the individual units they are not likely to be inspected again.
On another front, while I agree with some of the other posters that the argument over the plywood safety is a bit out of hand (although you do wonder why they didn't just make the ceilings lower), if bathrooms are simply being blocked off that is much more of a concern. If the water isn't shut off to these areas you could end up with nasty leaks or other damage to your apartment, and if they're sealed off you might not know/be able to fix the damage until it's really a problem.
Given the extent of these problems and the fact that so many people are not getting the property they paid for, purchasing will be a big risk. With this much rush work being done on the apartments there will be a TON of construction problems. Assuming there will be enough owners to elect a board soon, the board will spend much of the first year fixing major operational problems and preparing for the possibility of a lawsuit.
Some people on the board may find this opinion too harsh/negative, but it's based on my own experiences as a member of the board in a new condo with some construction issues that are much more minor than these.
Overall, I would not recommend purchasing for anyone who is not 1) planning to live in the property for at least 5 years; 2) prepared to do a lot of work negotiating with the sponsor; 3) getting a significant discount off the prices originally paid since the apartments are so different than what was originally offered. Just my $.02.
Posted by: eeeck at November 14, 2006 4:02 PM
it's also rather difficult for anyone over 4'11" to enjoy breakfast, guests, or anything else, in a space that's 5' in height.
"...it is very hard to get stains up from plywood so say goodbye to using this area as a breakfast nook or a guest kitchen."
Posted by: suzy at November 14, 2006 4:25 PM
the building dept. inspectors consider this a fire hazard for all those joksters out there as well as the developer who's posting lies.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 14, 2006 8:53 PM
that is just gross. what a waste. I feel bad for all of the buyers. Not an easy re-sell either.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 11:01 AM
With a good lawyer the buyers should be able to get their money back. Simply, the buyer was originally going to get a 7 foot ceiling and now it is 5 foot. Totally legitimate reason to get out.
By Code it should be sprinklered underneath which should deal with everyone's concern about spontaneous combustion and children with Saws-alls.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 1:00 PM
are you sure it should be sprinklered underneath?Are you an architect? Do you mean from the celing below or within the plywood flooring? thanks
Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 2:37 PM
Once again, slap on the wrist and cashing that check at the bank for Mr. S. Now it's not "hide the mezzanines" in your self cert plans (busted) now it's hide the mezzanines under plywood boxes.
Sickening our City's DOB allows the unscrupulous development to continue...but I am beginning to get a bit jaded ;)
Posted by: gottalovebob at November 17, 2006 4:41 PM
Gottalovebob 4:41 pm. Please do not talk about what you know nothing about including the construction at one of my jobs. What we do is always according to Zoning and Code as it exists at the time we are doing it. As policy changes at both agencies things have to change. Change unfortunately takes time and comes in stages, no pun intended. Do not critize work that is not completed or in progress because you fall into the trap of the rest of the mob who also no not what they speak of. Have a good day and in the future ask me if you want the straight story.
Posted by: scarano at November 18, 2006 12:24 PM
nice try, 12:24. but not egomaniacal enough to be the real robert scarano.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 19, 2006 2:27 PM
i'm sure that's scarano. he's really lost a bit of his vim and vigor ever since the DOB emasculated him by taking away his self-certification.
so he still speaks a big game, but i think he tempers his words a bit these days.
Posted by: anonymous at November 19, 2006 5:38 PM
Hey, all you fucking jerks leave me alone! I'm just trying to make a dollar!
Posted by: Scarano at November 29, 2006 12:59 PM
what do you do with a 7 foot ceiling anyway? is this for hobbits?
Posted by: p at December 18, 2006 4:25 PM
Is there a website or something else that gives a good intro to this kind of building regulation in NYC stuff, like FAR, and the below-grade bedroom whatever. I find it all confusing and fail to see the motivation behind it. I'm starting to consider buying and feel like I need to get on top of all this stuff somehow.
Posted by: guest at October 4, 2007 12:00 PM
WTF is going on in this building!
Posted by: guest at October 26, 2007 12:23 AM
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