Another Church on Fulton (As If It Needs One)

Prostitutes! Where!!!?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 11:19 AM

Seriously where are the hos?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 11:22 AM

What are the cros streets for this church development?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 11:27 AM

Just who will be going to this church. I sure wish the churches would do something for the neighborhood.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 11:41 AM

Faith based initiatives plus zero taxes equals free money for churches.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 11:54 AM

Why didn't a developer buy these lots? And how did the church come to acquiring them at such a low price? Same thing happened at the "FUGLY Tower" down the street. These lots are being sold dirt cheap but no good developers are buying them. Why? I mean it's Clinton Hill but every developer appears to covet every other street in the nabe but Fulton. I don't get it. This is so frustrating because Fulton sits above the A/C train line! Give me Scarano any day! Greene House Part Deux? I'd take it in a nano second! Two massive and well situated development lots and one goes to a bricology inspired nutcase and the other to some holy rollers for essentially beans! Why are developers paying $5-10M plus for lots on Clinton and Washington Aves and equally sized lots are trading hands two blocks to the east for a little over a $1M? Zoning? Can't be because Fulton, like Myrtle, is zoned for residential and commercial usage. Are landowners not accurately informed as to the true value of their properties thereby making it that much easier for novice/shoddy developers to enter the marketplace? Why are Fulton Street property owners so out of touch with the up tick in their neighborhood to demand top dollar for their lots and insist on quality development since many of these same land owners own additional properties on the strip? Can someone help me understand the madness that is Fulton Street?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 12:08 PM

12:08 PM, you're right, fulton street isn't keeping up with the market/changes. I suspect that many of the property owners of the derelict buildings that line fulton street are out of towners. They buy and hold real estate and sit on it until it appreciates to a level where they feel comfortable selling. I think the city out to crack down on these abandoned, half-rotting buildings and force the owners to either bring them up to code or to sell them. Just think of the extraordinary property tax that the city and state could collect if these buildings were rehabbed so that they became usable once again. We're missing out on property tax and potential sales tax from thriving retail stores that could line fulton instead of the run down shacks that are there. Lighting from these buildings would also help to brighten up the strip after dark. Right now its still a bit desolate, dingy and it has a dangerous feel to it.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 12:39 PM

Part of the reason might be due to all of the bad vibe in southeaster Clinton Hill (Grand-Classon corridor). It's been crappy for decades (though vastly improved in recent years). Absentee landlords (typically very old ethnic men) run and operate these buildings at arm lengths and they simply see this area as blighted with very limited upside. On the slight chance that they visit the property site, they see the same old thing that they've been seeing for years, e.g., run down stores, dealers and hookers on the corners and filthy sidewalks. When someone approaches these landlords and offer them $500k for their lots (as was the case with the four church lots) or $1mm (like the FT site) they are simply too happy to unload these assets at what they believe to be sucker prices. It sickens me too because Fulton Street in Clinton Hill is surrounded by some of the most beautiful brownstone blocks in all of Brooklyn. There are still a slew of large available lots on the strip and I'm hopeful that they will fall into the "right" hands. If you sprinkle a few Greene House like towers along Fulton and bring in some new blood and services, the area will take off like a rocket. Losing two large 75k+ sq. ft. parcels in such a non-value added way only hurts the area and stifles its growth and development.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 1:18 PM

where are these prostitutes that many keep alluding to? I am in the market and would like to know where to shop. Can some informed individual please enlighten me?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 1:36 PM

Agreed. There are place sprouting up here and there (Outpost Cafe, Brown Betty, Kush, Olivino, the place that used to be Cafe Shane), but more is need and there is a market for it. A good grocery, bakery, bookstore, independent clothing stores etc. would all do well I'd imagine. I personally think that the empty warehouse next to Crispus Atticus (sp?) park would be a nice condo conversion. Big windows, nice old buildings on either side of the block...

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 1:36 PM

Did you see the flyers on Fulton ??????
November 13 the department of design and construction will start infrastucture work from Clinton av to Bedford av, water main, new curbs, sidewalks roadway pavements, including pedestrian ramps,bus stops,traffic signal,street light faculities,street signs and planting of tree, apart from the caos of two years construction site, this is going to be agreat inprovment, hopefully the start of a new fulton!

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 1:57 PM

The empty warehouse is being fought over as we speak. I think the city still owns it. From what I understand the Bed-Stuy Restoration Corp was given millions of dollars to convert it into a community center but somehow the money got "lost". Now the project lacks the necessary resources to complete the renovation; which is very expensive. As a result, the property now stands vacant and awaits salvaging. One option that is currently on the table is to convert part of the building into condos to help pay for overall renovation costs as well as subsidize the community center on the ground floor. Tish James is following the situation very closely and will be able to shed additional and more accurate light on the subject matter.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 2:04 PM

I've seen those flyers, great news!

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 2:12 PM

STop that UGLY church from been built, even god will be afraid of getting in there.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 2:13 PM

take these non-profit groups to task!
retrieve the lost/stolen millions of dollars.
Someone has to be culpable for this sort of wholesale theft.

The upside is that the new church probably will probably have well kept grounds, great landscaping and adequate lighting. And their congregation (this seems to be a large church) might do a lot of shopping on fulton when services let out.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 2:31 PM

Universal Church of the Kingdom of God is considered a cult by many. They originated in Brazil in the mid 90's and now can be found in other parts of the world. Most of their members are Latinos who have fallen out of the grace of the Catholic Church. They are what is known as a "seed faith" based church in that you MUST give money for the lord to find you in his favor. (self-sacrifice?) They have a place on 4th Avenue for some time now. They offer healing miracles for many incurable sicknesses like AIDS for cash. They also do exorcisms.
http://www.rickross.com/groups/universal.html

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 2:39 PM

LP, because years ago the entire area east of Clinton Ave was typically referred to as Bed-Stuy. Biggie Smalls and Chubb Rock (ohhh, I'm dating myself now ,) who lived on neighboring landmarked blocks on St. James, rapped about the "Do or Die Bed-Stuy" as the area was commonly reffered to. They didn't boast about coming from "Dollar Bill Clinton Hill"! Though it has a nice ring to it! LOL!

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 3:07 PM

I actually wouldn't want another church. They are generally very loud and create parking issues.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 3:21 PM

A Church can lower your appraisal value for those two reasons.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 3:44 PM

it would be kind of lame picketing town hall or wherever to stop the construction of a church. I'm not sure that anyone wants to take up that cause. The church is probably here to stay. Get used to it. I don't understand why, time after time, they're these ongoing discussions about what should and shouldn't be built when its often after the fact and probably a done deal. I would rather spend my creative energies lobbying city govt to get the property owners of these decrepit building to fix them up or sell them. If anything lowers property value it is the endless stream of abandoned or under-utilized buildings that line fulton street.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 8, 2006 4:45 PM

Dear Race Card Sister Shawna,

Be serious. BECR is completely right. These churches are doing next to nothing to influence the neighborhood in a positive way, so why should we want them to build enormous temples to failure in OUR neighborhood. I have my own issues with the local churches. I have actually been heckled by crowds of people milling outside of more than one local church. Once for being white, once for being gay, another time for "standing in the wrong place." These were church-going people, dressed to please the preacher, and dropping a "bless God" left and right. So, Race Card Sister Shawna, be serious.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 9, 2006 3:28 PM

I knew from the get go that this would turn into a discussion about race. I take issue with your numbers BECR. Where did you get your information from. If you're trying to "educate" us about what a plight on society black people are maybe you should tell us where is the source of your info so we can all check it out. I have no problem believing you if it's true but virtually all the black people I've known are single or married, are college educated professionals and virtually none of them had kids out of wedlock. If you are indeed black and educated as you say, then get off your high horse. You're not the only black person living in Bklyn that is educated and you know that. If you are so educated, why would you tolerate living in your neighborhood amongst the lowest common denominator of our society. You've insulted every black person on here and in your neighborhood period. You mean to tell me that you're an oddity in Clinton Hill being black and educated? That I'm supposed to believe that you're not one of the four black people who have been incarcerated? See what I'm saying? If you're so educated...why are you so dumb?

Here's the deal on your numbers:
1) 25% of black families are dual income? It's no mystery that black people can't get jobs, maybe some folks that get thrown into that number don't need 2 incomes to make it work. Maybe they're actually well off? I'm not saying that that's the case but the small number that are affect that number. Maybe there's a husband or wife in grad school?
2)More black men between the ages of 18 and 22 in jail than in college? Are there more white people in jail period? Are they in jail because they committed crimes or because they don't know their rights and have access to good lawyers....like some people we know. Sure the system is completely accurate and true and virtuous.....WRONG!!! Plus who makes that statistic? Dept of Education, Bureau of Justice....because I couldn't find it.
3)1 out of 4 black men between the age of 18 and 35 is confined to the penal system, whether they're incarcerated, waiting trail, on probation or on parole? A)It's "trial" not trail. B) Again very easy when the police believe that black people are all criminals and will readily arrest a black person before they arrest a white person. The attitude is, well..he's black so lets arrest him..he's guilty of something. Hence the fact that if you take away the amount of black men falsely arrested this number would change significantly.
4)75% of all black children are born to unwed mothers? Where did this number come from? Is it based on your neighborhood? Brooklyn? NY? USA? Does this include Africa, West Indies, etc. You said "all black children". Show me your source on that one because it's far from true.
5)the unemployment rate for black males in NYC is 60%? I see the unemployment rate for black/african americans as around 8.6% at it's highest (that's independent of age..if you look at ages 16-19 for the race then it balloons up to a whopping 26.8%...compare this to 13.5% for white kids (and I say who cares if teenagers are working or not). With your number of 60% and such a large concentration of Black men in NYC it would be hard to get that number down to 8.6% (By the way, those number are from the Bureau of Labor Statistics)
6)only 40% of all black high school students graduate on time? I actually started early and finished on time without needing to take any math in college...and I was an accounting major. Do we really care if "they" are finishing on time? Are they finishing at a higher rate then they used to?
7) blacks make up only 10% of the US pop. size yet comprise 38% of the US. jail pop....etc...? From 1986-1997 whites have outnumbered blacks in jail to the tune of 2 million to 1.1 million (in 86) and 3.4 million to 2.15 million (in 97)...but that's just from the Dept of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics...By the way the Black population in 1997 was about 37 million (that 12.8% of the population). Those numbers are from the census bureau. I think it's probably more important to point out that while Black people represent a lower percentage of the overall population and a higher number of the jail population we know this to be true because blacks (and other minorities) generally make less than whites and poverty can put you into legal problems that they can't buy themselves out of AND there are still more white people in jail. So that must mean because there are more white convicted criminals than black that we should believe that ALL white people are criminals? Ummm...NOOO

"Back then 83% of all black households were comprised of duel parent families." That's you. The educated person.

If you're so educated how come you used the incorrect version of the word "duel"...it should've been "dual" (as in both or two...not a gun fight. Or maybe you did mean that).

Look, check your facts and educate yourself on the numbers so you're not spouting some other racist views by repeating this propaganda. If you can prove you're right then I can accept that but if you can't prove anything then shut the hell up!!

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 9:16 AM

Anon 9:16am, First, I believe the poster used BECR as a joke to highlight the absurdity of Shawana's declaration in her initial post. The author made no such claim of being "exceptional" or "special" because he or she is educated. Please learn to read and stop projecting. Second, despite obvious 'typos" BECR raised some excellent points and you should get your head out of your butt and smell the coffee. Blacks are not being oppressed by the system or the man. This is simply not true. Go read "Enough" by Juan Williams and you will find all the statistics you want on what's "really" destroying the black community. Educate yourself before ranting off sheer illogical defensive stupidity. You make us look like a bunch of scapegoating liberal idiots and perpetual victims.

Yes, all of the blacks I know are well educated and professionally oriented but they, like yourself, are not the majority. As is the case with the majority of people in the black community, you're in denial. I too hate it that our community is plagued by such negative statistics but I'm not going to make excuses for our shortcomings and failures or try to rationalize away their significance.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 11:53 AM

ENOUGH, By Juan Williams - Book Description

Half a century after brave Americans took to the streets to raise the bar of opportunity for all races, Juan Williams writes that too many black Americans are in crisis—caught in a twisted hip-hop culture, dropping out of school, ending up in jail, having babies when they are not ready to be parents, and falling to the bottom in twenty-first-century global economic competition.

In Enough, Juan Williams issues a lucid, impassioned clarion call to do the right thing now, before we travel so far off the glorious path set by generations of civil rights heroes that there can be no more reaching back to offer a hand and rescue those being left behind.

Inspired by Bill Cosby’s now famous speech at the NAACP gala celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of the Brown decision integrating schools, Williams makes the case that while there is still racism, it is way past time for black Americans to open their eyes to the “culture of failure” that exists within their community. He raises the banner of proud black traditional values—self-help, strong families, and belief in God—that sustained black people through generations of oppression and flowered in the exhilarating promise of the modern civil rights movement. Williams asks what happened to keeping our eyes on the prize by proving the case for equality with black excellence and achievement.

He takes particular aim at prominent black leaders—from Al Sharpton to Jesse Jackson to Marion Barry. Williams exposes the call for reparations as an act of futility, a detour into self-pity; he condemns the “Stop Snitching” campaign as nothing more than a surrender to criminals; and he decries the glorification of materialism, misogyny, and murder as a corruption of a rich black culture, a tragic turn into pornographic excess that is hurting young black minds, especially among the poor.

Reinforcing his incisive observations with solid research and alarming statistical data, Williams offers a concrete plan for overcoming the obstacles that now stand in the way of African Americans’ full participation in the nation’s freedom and prosperity. Certain to be widely discussed and vehemently debated, Enough is a bold, perceptive, solution-based look at African American life, culture, and politics today.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 12:01 PM

A Culture of Failure Taints Black America
By Juan Williams
Washington Post
Monday, August 21, 2006; Page A15

Have we taken our eyes off the prize? The civil rights movement continues, but the struggle today is not so much in the streets as in the home -- and with our children. If systemic racism remains a reality, there is also a far more sinister obstacle facing African American young people today: a culture steeped in bitterness and nihilism, a culture that is a virtual blueprint for failure.
The emphasis on young people in today's civil rights struggle is rooted in demographics. America's black, Hispanic and immigrant population is far younger than its white population. Those young people of color live in the big cities and rely on big-city public schools.

With 50 percent of Hispanic children and nearly 70 percent of black children born to single women today these young people too often come from fractured families where there is little time for parenting. Their search for identity and a sense of direction is undermined by a twisted popular culture that focuses on the "bling-bling" of fast money associated with famous basketball players, rap artists, drug dealers and the idea that women are at their best when flaunting their sexuality and having babies.
In Washington, where a crime wave is tied to these troubled young souls, the city reacts with a curfew. It is a band-aid. The real question is how one does battle with the culture of failure that is poisoning young people -- and do so without incurring the wrath of critics who say we are closing our eyes to existing racial injustice and are "blaming the victim."
Recently Bill Cosby has once again run up against these critics. In 2004, on the 50th anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education decision, Cosby took on that culture of failure in a speech that was a true successor to W.E.B. DuBois's 1903 declaration that breaking the color line of segregation would be the main historical challenge for 20th-century America. In a nation where it is getting tougher and tougher to afford a house, health insurance and a college education -- in other words, to attain solid middle-class status -- Cosby decried the excuses for opting out of the competition altogether.
Cosby said that the quarter of black Americans still living in poverty are failing to hold up their end of a deal with history when they don't take advantage of the opportunities created by the Supreme Court's Brown decision and the sacrifices of civil rights leaders from Martin Luther King Jr. to Thurgood Marshall and Malcolm X. Those leaders in the 1950s and '60s opened doors by winning passage of the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act and fair housing laws. Their triumphs led to the nationwide rise in black political power on school boards and in city halls and Congress.
Taken as a whole, that era of stunning breakthroughs set the stage for black people, disproportionately poor and ill-educated because of a history of slavery and segregation, to reach new heights -- freed from the weight of government-sanctioned segregation. It also created a national model of social activism to advance the rights of women, Hispanics, gays and others.
Cosby asked the chilling question: "What good is Brown " and all the victories of the civil rights era if nobody wants them? A generation after those major civil rights victories, black America is experiencing alarming dropout rates, shocking numbers of children born to single mothers and a frightening acceptance of criminal behavior that has too many black people filling up the jails. Where is the focus on taking advantage of new opportunities to advance and to close the racial gap in educational and economic achievement?
Incredibly, Cosby's critics don't see the desperate need to pull a generational fire alarm to warn people about a culture of failure that is sabotaging any chance for black people in poverty to move up and help their children reach the security of economic and educational achievement. Not one mainstream civil rights group picked up on his call for marches and protests against bad parenting, drug dealers, hate-filled rap music and failing schools.
Where is the civil rights groundswell on behalf of stronger marriages that will allow more children to grow up in two-parent families and have a better chance of staying out of poverty? Where are the marches demanding good schools for those children -- and the strong cultural reinforcement for high academic achievement (instead of the charge that minority students who get good grades are "acting white")? Where are the exhortations for children to reject the self-defeating stereotypes that reduce black people to violent, oversexed "gangstas," minstrel show comedians and mindless athletes?
In order to face this century's class battles, young minds need the self-confidence that comes from examples of inspiring historical personalities, such as a black woman born into slavery who made herself a national leader, Sojourner Truth, or a black man living under rank segregation, A. Philip Randolph, who defied corporate power to break segregation in organized labor. Frederick Douglass had to teach himself how to read before standing up to defeat slavery.
These examples should empower young people to believe in themselves and to organize across racial lines and build institutions with a solid footing in the nation's political and economic power. This is real black culture, and it is based on strong families creating determined, self-reliant young people.
The defining challenge for this generation of Americans dealing with poverty is putting the next generation in a position to move even higher. Individuals must now use the opportunities made available to them by the sacrifices of past generations if they are to achieve victory in America's long and still unfinished civil rights movement.
Juan Williams is a senior correspondent for National Public Radio, a political analyst for Fox News and author of "Eyes on the Prize: America's Civil Rights Years, 1954-1965."

Posted by: Anonymous at November 10, 2006 12:03 PM

Believe it or not BECR's stats are made up or incorrect. I believe the poster that disputed them isn't wrong form correcting him/her. Part of what plagues black society are people manipulating numbers to demonize the classes that economically aren't doing that well. Racist? Yes. The stats just aren't true. I too would like to see where they come from. At least the poster that corrected BECR listed where they got their numbers from.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 2:19 PM

No Anon 2:19. Unfortunately, those statistics are dead on. I work with inner-city kids through a Brooklyn based grass roots organization and we cite these statistics routinely in our presentation to at risk children in an effort to persuade them to seek a different path. IMHO you do the black community a major disservice by attempting to conceal the truth. I agree with the above poster and Juan Williams. The black community is indeed being destroyed by a "culture of failure" and attempts like yours and Shawana to paint an inaccurate rosy picture of a very serious social issue is part of the problem.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 6:33 PM

Just like the Dept of Justice and the Bureau of Labor Statistics posts their information for everyone, why don't you? Let's bring this into the light because I need to see the numbers from the actual survey. If the stats from BECR are true then give us all access to the info that he/she is quoting and you're defending. I'm not saying that blacks don't lag behind (certainly the quality of the education has a lot to do with that) but to the degree that BECR is talking about, I'm going to need to see some hard evidence from a reputable source and not some person on a blog. Doesn't that sound reasonable?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 6:57 PM

I'd like to know also

Posted by: Anonymous at November 11, 2006 7:00 PM

By 2004 federal data showed that black Americans - 13 percent of the population - accounted for 37 percent of the violent crimes, 54 percent of arrest for robbery, and 51 percent of murders.

According to the U.S. Dept of Justice Department, blacks make up 13 percent of the nation's population, but in 2004 the nation's prison population was 44 percent black. 1 out 10 black men between the ages of twenty-five and twenty-nine is in prison.

According to the Sentencing Project (a Washington DC based group that does legal research on the criminal justice system) found the 1/3 of black American men, aged 22 - 29, were on any given day in jail or prison, on probation or on parole. That same report said that more black men were in jail or prison than in college. A black male child born in 2001 has a 33% chance of going to prison at some point in his life, according to the study.

Contrast this to the start of the 1950s where 65 percent of all state and federal prisoners were white and 35 percent were black. By the end of the 20th century the percentage of white prisoners had declined to 35 percent, while the black inmate population approached 50 percent. Something terrible has happened.

One statistical model in the 1990sput the likelihood of a low income black man going to prison during his lifetime at 60 percent.

According to the Civil Rights Project at Harvard University and the Urban Institute, only 50 percent of black students, compared to 75 percent of whites, who enter the ninth grade later graduate with a regular high school diploma. They found that the black high school graduation rate was even lower than the 53 percent rate of Hispanic students, many of them recent immigrants who face a language barrier as they go to U.S. schools. But what is more troubling is that hidden within the 50 percent graduation rate for black students is an even lower graduation rate for black males. Only 43 percent of black boys graduate from high school with a regular diploma, i.e., excluding GEDs.

According to federal data, the average black American twelfth grader scores worse on basic skills than 80 percent of white twelfth graders. That is a serious gap and a mortal threat to the race.

According to the National Assessment fro Educational Progress, 40 percent of black high school seniors tested below the basic skill level in reading.

Statistics show that 65 percent of black boys who dropped out of high school were unemployed, and stopped looking for work or were in jail during the year 2000. By 20004, the New York Times reported, 72 percent of black men who dropped out of high school were unemployed, no longer looking for work, or behind bars. Half of the black men who dropped out of college were unemployed, too.

According to the National Center for Education Statistics, half of black children starting kindergarten scored in the bottom quarter on math; one-third of black kindergartners were in the bottom quarter on reading. These gaps precede the gulf between black and white students in test scores and high school graduation rates.

37 percent of black children live with a mother and father in two-parent families and 70 percent of all black children are born to single mothers. In 1964, 82 percent of black households had both parents in place and close to half

The good news is that there is a formula for getting out of poverty today. The magical steps begin with finishing high school, but finishing college is much better. Step number two is taking a job and holding it. Step three is marrying after finishing school and while you have a job. And the final step to give yourself the best chance to avoid poverty is to have children only after you are twenty-one and married. This formula applies to black people and white people alike.

The poverty rate for any black man or woman who follows that formula is 6.4 percent. The overall poverty rate for black Americans, based on 2002 census data, the year this analysis was done, was 21.5 percent. In other words, by meeting those basic requirements, black Americans can cut their chances of being poor by two-thirds. In 2004 this number would 5.8 percent vs. 24.7 percent.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 12, 2006 8:46 PM

Good stats! I think it points to a failing society more than a failing race. If a group of people gets less they end up not being able to do better. This has less to do with race.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 13, 2006 9:13 AM

Man, you make it so difficult. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. Didn't you read anything above? Those "good stats" are from Juan Williams book. How the heck can you read the above posts about a "culture of failure" - within our community - that is destroying us left and right and you walk away and simply blame society. Damn, I'm so disappointed in you. This is the problem with us. We take no responsibility and we always look to blame others for our problems and failures.

Poor immigrants come into this country with far less, are equally discriminated against, live in ethnic ghettos - sometimes three families or more in one apartment - but they figure out pretty quickly the FORUMULA stated above. Why shouldn't they when it boils down to plain old simple common sense and logic. But black people for whatever reason can not comprehend nor appreciate this basic FORMULA. This is the salient issue that we are trying to solve so that the entire community can be elevated to a higher place. Unfortunately, this lofty goal will never come to fruition if the majority of us continue to think like Anon 9:13am.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 13, 2006 2:56 PM

9:13, you get less because you deserve less. When you get more it will because you earned it, i.e., you went out and took it for yourself and didnt wait for someone to give you a handout.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 13, 2006 3:14 PM

white people. :-|
So if black are such idiots how do you explain the ones that are doing fine? It's not race jackass it's economics and society, if it were race then all black would have this problem. You need to isolate the problem better. Attributing the problem to a certain color of people only creates stereotypes. A poor person can't choose their color. Sure they can make certain choices to better their situation but does that have anything to do with race. People are people no matter the color and there will always be people who do better and people who don't. As long as politics and capitalism have anything to do with anything then for sure there will be people who do better than others. Don't act like this isn't true. I guess if you want to point out how bad black people are, then I guess we can talk about how bad white people are. Hmmm, let's talk about Hitler, George W Bush, anybody that thought slavery was okay for the time, anybody who still thinks of any group as "those people". Racism has hurt every minority in this country with it affecting blacks the most. The only people it doesn't affect negatively are white people so don't go around acting like you know how to fix anyones problems...you've done enough already. Having said that I understand that not all white people are evil and as such don't deserve this rant. My apologies. The majority of this site is obviously white and as such I expect no one to agree with me. We (and I mean all of us, including myself) need to be more racially sensitive and while we're at it maybe economically sensitive. Not everybody does well and makes the right decision.....there are dirt poor people and criminals in every race. I'd actually appreciate it if the moderator (if there is one) remove this entire post from the website. Are we talking about architecture or race on this board. It's inflammatory to talk about religion AND race.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 17, 2006 5:57 PM

Anon 5:57pm. I'm the author of some of the above posts and I'm black! And you're right, it's not about race - it's about CULTURE. More precisely, it's about a "culture of failure" that is dominating OUR community. How dumb can you be? It's so obvious that the above post were written by a black person trying to appeal to the black community to clean house. But you don't see this. You only see RACE in that it has to be white people criticizing blacks. So what do you do? You become defensive and perpetuate lies about the wrongs in our community in an effort to make yourself feel better. Why couldn't you see it as constructive criticism coming from perhaps a black man or woman that is deeply concerned about the downward spiral of black life in America?

People like you are the true enemies of the black community. You want to hide our little secrets from public view. You want to sugarcoat are shortcomings and make excuses for some of the very serious damage that we're inflicting upon ourselves. You hate to wash our dirty linen in public for fear that it would absolve white guilt and take away the many handouts that you've obviously grown dependent on. You hate to look in the mirror and accept the possibility that perhaps you're part of the problem. You are a disgrace. People such as yourself are a cancer in OUR community and through your willful blindness, apathy or outright deception, you are doing far more harm to our community than slavery, the KKK or Jim Crow could have ever hoped to accomplish. Though it took time, those institutions were defeated; perhaps because the enemy was easily identifiable. Today the enemy is us.

There is a reason why you keep coming back to this post because deep down inside you know that I'm right and I'm talking to your guilty conscience. This thread should not be deleted because the more you read it, the more it makes sense, and maybe, just maybe, it will galvanize you into action. You are your brother's keeper, aren't you?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 18, 2006 4:10 AM

Please, I keep coming back to this thread because of assholes like yourself. I've done just fine with my college education, zero children out of wedlock, my own business that has international clients and my own condo in a great neighborhood. I have no guilt. Nothing you said applied to me...or a lot of other black people. Don't lump us all into a category. Gee, I guess that's what racism looks like. If you talk about how much a cancer black people are and you're black yourself then you sound like the self loathing black person here. You want better for your people? Maybe less talk from your ass and more work. By that I mean, you gab a lot about the failure of black "culture" here but you haven't said crap about how you've helped anyone...black or white. You've read a book. Congratulations, your education has paid off now roll up your sleeves and help out your "people" and shut the hell up. You've got to be the most retarded person on here to take a thread about a church (that either was or was not in your community) and you make it an opportunity to talk about how the black community is failing. What the hell does that have to do with a church being erected. Stay on topic moron. I was addressing (along with some others on here) how some of the posts on this topic seemed racst because these people were not from area and as such should leave the people in that area (predominantly black) and the members of that new building (also predominantly black) alone. You're so stupid that you take it as an opportunity to show everyone what you know about a book that someone else wrote. Well now we all know that you're a self loathing moron who would rather yammer on about a book he read then about the existence of a building. You want to talk about the book and lump a race of people (which happen to include yourself) take it somewhere else. It has nothing to do with the building of a church on Fulton Street. Who put you in charge of the black community anyway? Sure, you can criticize but you'll probably have a better response from black people (or any "culture" you choose to hold under your all powerful magnifying glass) by trying on a daily basis to actually do better for yourself and your people. When was the last time you hired a minority (black person), showed them how to work in a way that will get them ahead or even helped out in the community. I guess it's better for stupid jerks like yourself to sit in your tower and read when you can do either one or both of the things I suggested. If you're so intelligent why don't you show the rest of "us" how to be like you? Oh that's right, because that'll mean we just read a book and never got off our ass to help a brother. Not with a handout but with an actual job or maybe some counseling/teaching/coaching of some sort.
I am my brothers keeper because, unlike you, I work in the community...for free. I hire minorities whenever I can and one thing I realize after being in business for 20 years is that it's better to help than to offer criticism. It doesn't help....constructive or otherwise. Would you tell your wife or husband she was fat? Would you tell your kid he/she was stupid? Those are just criticsms...they may even be true, but if you're looking to help that person, you'll actually help them...not criticise them. There's almost nothing worse (racially speaking) than someone who doesn't even know you (like YOU don't know ME) pointing out your problems based on your color....not on who you actually are. You want to see the black community do better? Roll up your sleeves and jump in the trenches. You want to show them their shortcomings because you think that'll help? Well, I don't think that's working...is it. You want to help ME? Don't bother bro, I have my act together and I help not only my "people" but pretty much anyone I can. Are you doing anything beside reading a book and feeling like you can criticise because you're doing okay in life? Yeah, didn't think so. Now shut up and talk about the building and why you like or don't like the design and/or why you think or don't think it should be "allowed" to be built. That area and that church have no effect on me and does it really negatively affect the neighborhood...I don't know. I think unless you're from that area that you should be allowed to comment on it. It's not a skyscraper. It might not mess up traffic (depending where on Fulton it's located). It's another church that a body of people thought they'd need because they're either in an obsolete or undersized building. WHO CARES!!! Is it so wrong for a church to be built? Something might be better for that particular spot like...umm...a stadium, a crackhouse. Would any of those be better for the black community?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 18, 2006 2:29 PM