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October 31, 2006
HOTD: Price Cut at 181 Washington Park
When this perfectly restored brownstone overlooking Fort Greene Park debuted at the beginning of the Summer, most people had the same reaction: "Totally awesome but $4 million?" That was then, this is now. Brooklyn Properties was given the axe a few weeks ago in favor of Brown Harris Stevens, who has now trimmed $200,000 off the asking price. It still seems like a reach to us but when you're dealing with a spectacular house, you just never know. Stranger things have happened.
Washington Park Townhouse [Brown Harris Stevens] GMAP P*Shark
Stepping Out On FG Park (For Almost $4 Mil!) [Brownstoner]
Comments
I think I saw this house through A&H..
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 12:34 PM
Brooklyn Prop. had already cut the price. What does the seller think that BHS will be able to do that Brooklyn Prop. didn't do? Obviously, this is the type of property that needs the right buyer to come along and that will take time --maybe even a year.
Posted by: west at October 31, 2006 12:39 PM
Did not got somebody shot around the corner over the last days? Well, at least you get your drugs conveniently...
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 12:55 PM
What?
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 1:00 PM
It seems that brooklyn properties still has the listing -- it is still on their website. Brooklyn Properties has has better pictures and description. No floorplan on either site, which I think is kind of odd.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 1:06 PM
This house looks great, if I had the cash I would not hesitate for a second. Has anyone been inside?
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 1:08 PM
My god - someone got gunned down in New York City? Well now, I guess the entire NY real estate market is toast (or dare I say, "shot").
Posted by: dcardoni at October 31, 2006 1:13 PM
It's beautiful. Really lovely. I think that such a property needs to be marketed properly by a realtor which uses the web well to expand the potential buyer base. It is a big price tag and out of range with everything in the area, so they need to appeal to buyers who might have targeted BH or Cobble Hill.
Posted by: donatella at October 31, 2006 1:16 PM
It's still overpriced by about $1 Million. The pricing is more in the range for Brooklyn Heights not Fort Green.
Posted by: crouchback at October 31, 2006 1:18 PM
Its a beauty. No central AC though. It sux but it has a gang of character.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 1:20 PM
I could see this pricing if the property was in Park Slope. (Montgomery between 7th ave and the Park)
This house is overpriced by $750M. If the seller is prepared to wait a long time, they might find that one buyer.
Posted by: Torch at October 31, 2006 1:36 PM
it's a great place but i just don't see people spending that type of money given what you can get for that sum in park slope or ritzy parts of boerum hill. reality is that majority of brooklyn brownstone buyers capable of dropping that type of loot aren't spending it in fort greene. such a buyer is a rarity.
Posted by: csk at October 31, 2006 1:38 PM
The pix on the Brooklyn Properties site are much nicer, and include shots of the bedrooms, bathrooms and garden, which are noticeably missing from the BHS site. They also seem more honest, as the photographer doesn't seem to have used a distorting wide-angle lens like the BHS photographer did. The lack of floorplans on both sites is just silly, though, and I agree with the earlier commenter about how this has to be marketed. For example, there is no mention of the cultural amenities in the neighborhood, the convenient transportation, etc. Do they want to sell this thing or not?
Posted by: Park Sloper at October 31, 2006 1:38 PM
Width, lot size?
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 1:43 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but is someone who is looking to spend close to $4 million on a home really browsing through real estate websites looking for floor plans? I would think this type of transaction is handled in a more "exclusive" manner. That could explain the lack of detail on the websites as the house may be posted for show while the actually marketing of this property is being done in a more discrete fashion. I could be totally off base though. Maybe $4M in NYC still places you with the unwashed masses at Brownstoner. Interested to from someone in the know.
Posted by: C-Roy at October 31, 2006 1:52 PM
OMG...click the link provided above from the previous brownstoner listing of this house...plenty of comments to address/rebut anything you have to say.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 1:53 PM
All posters thinking this trades above $3mm are either realtors or the seller. this is a joke of a listing - true it is a good house and all but give me a break. $2.5-7mm range is proper value, all the rest is fluff. I can own in BH for this price and better property too - i love FG but the value just isnt there yet.
So please... enough talking about this overpriced house that noone will buy unless there is a $1mm price break.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 2:12 PM
Think I remember the house being 22x50 (and the backyard being the same). At the ridiculous $2.5MM some people are suggesting (which would sell in about an hour), that would suggest less than $500 per square foot. Hanson Place is currently listing at $1,000 per, 383 Carlton at close to that, and general unfinished brownstones on much lesser blocks at around $600 per. It must be fun to just put down every house and every price on this site - because lots of folks seem to live for it.
Posted by: dcardoni at October 31, 2006 2:29 PM
I know this is within the wrong post and thus, off topic, but does anyone know the deal with 331 Adelphi? There's quite the commentary about its' worth, etc. and the comments have stalled...I'm curious what people think about what the fair split would be with two owners that was recently posted on the brownstoner blog...
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 2:49 PM
I agree it's odd that nobody has a floorplan. For not much money the broker could hire some good freelance floorplan guys, who would have it all done in an afternoon. Or are they hiding something? People really do look at these things!
My database shows that BHS has had the exclusive since July -- perhaps they've given Brooklyn Properties permisson to advertise it as well. Anyway, it's only a 4% commission (rather than the usual 6%).
Posted by: babs at October 31, 2006 2:53 PM
4% of $3,795,000 = $151,800
That's a pretty good incentive to include nice photos & a floorplan. I agree that someone willing to spend this kind of money is going to just go see it and not be swayed by a lack of floorplan though. I think the number of people out there in NYC who are willing and able to pay this for a Fort Greene brownstone can be counted on both hands and it's just a matter of someone waiting patiently for them to surface. BTW, babs you're a broker? You're obviously a very cool one at that!
Posted by: west at October 31, 2006 3:04 PM
Here, I'll describe the house for you - since I saw it on house tour. Garden floor - kitchen in the back - cherry colored cabs. Parlor floor, double parlor. 2nd floor, master bedroom with bathroom in the corner (not ensuite) and closets in the middle with shaving sinks there as well.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 3:08 PM
The fundamental structure of this brownstone -- standard edition -- would go for 1.8 m in this neighborhood. Add another .5 mil for the "on the park" location, that comes to 2.3 mil. Add another 300Gs for "character" (i.e. well-preserved details), that totals at 2.6 mil.
That's how I'd do the math if I was gonna invest in that property.
Now, I don't care how pretty you think the place looks in the pictures; if you're gonna spend between 3 and 4 mil on a brownstone, you're gonna want to customize it to your taste, and CERTAINLY upgrade all the MEPs, such as central AC.
It's just not a "spectacular" place in and of itself. Just standard brownstone with, as someone put it, fluff, and the nice park view.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 3:12 PM
ITA with you Anon 3:12. Maybe even give it a bump to 3m but 4m, fuggedaboutit. There's a brownstone in the Village at 51 Horatio for 3.9m right now, which I'd go for between the 2 properties. Better location (IMHO) and great schools (saving another 100k net tax/year for 3 kids) A buyer at 4m has many more choices.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 3:23 PM
http://www.elliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=745500&rentalperiod=&SearchType=quick
Ooh, and it has floorplans too. It's tiny - 13' X whatever, but it's not even a contest between the 2 places for me at that price point, with kids & private school tuition...
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 3:26 PM
I totally disagree with tacking on another .5 mil for on the park location. Park is nice, yes, but also comes with litter, noise, farmer's market (I'd rather be near the market than have it in my front yard). That said, I'm clearly not in the running for said house, but lucky for me it's also not really my style. Obviously others feel differently.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 3:33 PM
Ok, I get that Ft Greene isn't Bklyn Hghts, but I don't get what Park Slope has to offer that Ft Greene doesn't. Will someone please enlighten me? I've lived in both places and I feel that Ft Greene is closer to Manhattan, has nicer homes and is a more diverse, neighborly community. I would certainly pay more for Ft Greene. What am I missing?
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 3:56 PM
Schools, schools, schools - PS has 321 and the other one isn't bad either. FG has a school that is up and coming.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 3:57 PM
I'll tell you what Park Slope has that Fort Greene doesn't have - services! I have to hike to the few drycleaners, food stores (YECH!) have to go on a hiking expedition to get fresh lettuce. The closest grocery store sells grey chicken and antique canned goods. One bakery. Shoe Repair? What DO we have? Hair salons. Bodegas. Chinese takeout. The buildings are beautiful but Fresh Direct is making a killing in this neighborhood.
Posted by: anon Fort Greener at October 31, 2006 4:09 PM
Like many people, I saw this house on the FG house tour a few months ago. It's gorgeous with very high end finishes. And the view of the park through the front parlor creates a special atmosphere. BUT -- and it's a big but -- the house doesn't have any significant extras, which is the only way I could see justifying this "premium" price. It would need at least one (and preferably two) of the following: a double-size landscaped lot, off-street parking, central air, a sauna, home cinema in the cellar, designer roof deck, etc etc. Otherwise, it's just a very nice brownstone on a very nice block in a very nice neighborhood. But NOT a category killer.
Posted by: NeoGrec at October 31, 2006 4:19 PM
Well, one can't argue with someone who would rather pay $4MM for a undetailed Horatio Street 1,800 sq. ft. brownstone over the incredibly detailed 5,000 sq. ft. on-the-park Fort Greene masterpiece - that's certainly your perogative. Oh well, at least you'll save money on the 6 elementary school years of public vs. private school - though my guess is that people who are willing to pay $2,200 per sq. ft. on Horatio Street shouldn't really care about a mere $20,000 per year in school costs.
Having said this, I don't think the Wash Park house is worth $4MM, though I think it is easily worth more than the $2.5MM numbers people are suggesting.
Lastly - I love how some people "get" at the prices they quote. For example - a "standard edition" brownstone sells for $1.8MM. Well, actually, a standard edition 4 story brownstone sells for that. This is a 5-story - so, the price should actually be increased by 20%. (Even then, with the hokey math - you get to close to $3MM - which is where I think this house trades). Or people can simply do easy math - and say, with the detail and the park locale, it's probably worth between $600-650 per square foot.
Posted by: dcardoni at October 31, 2006 4:26 PM
Even rich people send their kids to public school these days. Ever check out the demographics at PS 6, 234, 3, 41, 199, 87 & 321. Foolish to spend $$$ on K-6 unless you're in a top-tier school
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 4:31 PM
There are a sh*t load of amenities/restaurants/conveniences in Ft. Greene and one doesn't have to hike to get to them. There are also very few hair (aren't there just 2?)salons and almost few stores that can be classified as 'bodegas'. Of course, it may be a hike if one were to live in another neighborhood that borders on Ft. Greene...
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 4:34 PM
While it says this is technically a 2-family, if memory serves it is decidedly a 1-family in its current configuration (floor plan would help here). Just wondering, how many people need a 5,000 sq ft five story 1-family? Is there a point at which more sq. footage almost becomes a burden? Just curious what people think.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 4:35 PM
It's not at all foolish to spend the money on elementary private school - ever check out how hard it is to get into a top-tier private school in NYC if you're trying to get into middle school (and haven't been at the feeder elementary all along). Might as well move to the suburbs at that point - cause it ain't happening.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 4:40 PM
Duhh.
Fort Greene has housing projects. Park Slope doesn't.
Park Slope has well, a big useful park. Fort Greene has a former crack haven still filled with homeless.
Fort Greene is artsy and is close to manhattan. The proximity and quantity of undesirable residents however means no one with money will ever put there family there.
Posted by: Eryximachus at October 31, 2006 4:48 PM
once again - i will repeat
anyone defending this ridiculous price is :
a - broker
b - owner
c - retarded
+
a 5 story brownstone isnt worth 20% more than a 4 story brownstone...
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 5:05 PM
Why would someone paying $3-$4MM for a house care about the Public Schools? Obviously none of you guys are in the demographic to purchase this home.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 8:24 PM
Property Shark has Sq Footage at 4,400. $600 per gets you to $2,640,000. $700 per gets you to $3,080,000. That's the range where this property will trade.
Incidently, owner paid $1,250,000 in 2002. Let's say the renovation cost $100 per sq ft. (since they didn't put in HVAC, or make the fireplaces operable, renovation was probably less than this) That gets you to around $1,700,000. Give it 4 years at 15% appreciation per gets to about $3,000,000.
Any way you slice it, this place goes fo $3MM tops. The longer the owner keeps it on the market the less it will fetch, because the current market will not appreciate at 15% per annum again for some time.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 8:37 PM
You folks are nuts if you think real estate prices in Manhattan and Brooklyn will stay anywhere near the levels they are now.
Five years ago a beautifull townhouse in Fort Green could be bought for 1 million, not it's 3 million and up? What are you folks smoking.
Five years ago a townhouse could be bought in Greenwich Village for 2 million, now it's 5 million?
Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble, get ready for the pop!
Posted by: Ebomb at October 31, 2006 9:51 PM
The house is rad. It's almost too perfect, as there are things I see that I'd like to take out, like the sculpture on the banister of the stairwell, some of the wall sconces, ect. It's almost high rococo and just a little too "done." If it were a little more worse for wear you could put in some nice modern things to make it all work and a little hipper.
It's pretty nice though. I think the fireplaces and no central air are a big minus, but if you've got 3+ mil, shouldn't be that big a deal.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 10:17 PM
Park Slope is so boring...Fort Greene is quickly becoming Brooklyn's hottest nabe. Majestic homes, great restaurants and the best people watching this side of the East River.....
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 11:51 PM
Eryximachus, nice to know we can always count on you to say something totally trollish and absurd.
So glad there are no "undesireable" people in Park Slope. What a relief.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 12:10 AM
I can afford this place, and I'm sending my kids to public school.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 7:51 AM
Exyximachus Please remove your anal fissures. Otherwise stay in the Slop.
Also Brown Harris Stevens if you think you can overprice our nabe then open up an office here.. otherwise find eryximachus his 4M pad he obviously indirectly feels that the slop is worth it :)
Posted by: yximachus at November 1, 2006 8:02 AM
All right boys and girls - time for some FACTS:
1) 191 Washington Park sold 9/28/06 for $1.9MM details on Property Shark (remember everyone saying that this wouldn't sell at the asking price lot of same nonsense posted that was posted above)
2) You cannot renovate a house with this kind of finish for $100 per square foot (just go look at it) - I'm going through the same process that this owner went through and for the quality work they did a huge survey or architects are talking $300-400 sq.ft.
3) This is at the other end of (long) block to Farmers Market
Therefore, I get:
$1.9MM (191) + $1.6MM (reno cost)= $3.5MM AND 191 is a 4-story and 2' narrower...you add the qualitative difference...
If you look at the big tickets sales in Ft. Greene (Wash. Park/South Oxford/South Portland) they all comp to this asking price when you build in renovation cost of this quality. Going back to previous threads you will find the same discussion.
Last time I posted re: this topic about 191 Wash Park (and highlighted that the property sold on day 1 on the market as a FSBO) with the above math I got the "nice one Mr. Corcoran" stupid responses - now the details are on Property Shark we can all get some perspective on how uninformed the majority of people are on this board...
But, wow, a lot of them know how to correct spelling mistakes...
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 9:52 AM
BHS and Brooklyn Properties both listed this property from the beginning. The price drop was made at least a month ago, I believe.
I agree with the above poster that the price, though high, is not outside the realm of possibility. 5-story brownstones (needing work) on park blocks in FG have gone for approx. 2.1 million to 2.6 million recently, and it's easy to spend another $100 to $200 per square foot for renovation -- Washington Park probably spent more than that. I was one of the few people who thought 191 Washington Park would sell in a flash (it did) and I think 181 Washington Park will sell over $3 million for sure -- how much over 3 million is the question. I heard they are doing finance checks on potential buyers before allowing them to see the property. That may be standard for houses that price, but I must say it made me say "forget it." Why do the sellers think I would waste my time looking if I couldn't afford it?! Anyway, I chose a different 5-story brownstone on a different park block in FG and hopefully will be into it for under 3 million after a top notch renovation. 181 sure is pretty, though.
Posted by: fortgreener at November 1, 2006 10:21 AM
"Why do the sellers think I would waste my time looking if I couldn't afford it?!"
Because people like me do it all the time. Sorry. Beauties like these serve as roll models for the dilapidated brownstones I can afford.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 10:51 AM
$1.6mm reno cost... haha nice one
i bet for less than $3mm and by the way
market is not going up no more.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 11:22 AM
Anon 11:22...have you seen the house in question?...what do you think NYC/Brooklyn high-end reno prices are per sq.ft?...very interested in your obviously well informed opinion before I make any decisions on my reno...
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 11:40 AM
$1.6MM renovation cost? $363 per sq ft. You must be using Tony Soprano, Architects, LLC, and Tony Soprano Construction, LLC, for your renovations. You should ask them to throw in one year's free lap dances at "Bada Bing"
BTW no ones spends $1.6MM to renovate, but doesn't put in HVAC or fix up the fireplaces. That should be a clue for you.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 1:53 PM
You can afford a $4mm house, while sending your kids to PSanything?
Wow, you really have your priorities in order.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 1:57 PM
anon 11:40am - are you asking about a total gut job? i think $1-1.2mm for 5 stories gets you a great job w/ central AC.
i think this house was a little less than gut job and im sure less than $1.2mm went into it.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 1, 2006 3:51 PM
OK try living lose to Fulton west of Vanderbelt. That is Fort Greene and there are no, repeat, no services there. It IS a hike to go any where to get anything: drycleaning, non-rotten food, shoemaker, butcher, housewares, etc. etc. You can't even buy a magazine, forget flowers. THAT is what Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights have that Fort Greene doesn't have.
Posted by: anon at November 1, 2006 4:16 PM
It's pointless to compare this property to 191 Washington for several reasons:
1. It's DOUBLE the price (in ask). Double the downpayment, double the monthly payment, double everything else. 191 could be had if you had 500k ready and the finances to handle the monthly, 181 needs almost 800k down and it's quite a bit more in carry charge. Steep.
2. 191 was a 4 family. There's lots of people who could finance a true 4, either keep it fully rented, move into one or two units and slowly refurbish (although it was in nice shape already), ect. ect. It had a nice positive cash flow already waiting to be tapped, I'd guess close to 8k a month, if all 4 were rented out. That nearly covers the mortgage if you had 20% down. You're looking at out of pocket costs and fees. 181 is really a 1 family. It's zoned as a two, but you'd have to do a duplex over triplex and the duplex doesn't have a kitchen. I'm not sure it has a bathroom. Big bummer, as ALL the extra bedrooms are up there. So as the owner, you'd own a 1 bedroom apartment for 3.75 million, and lost 40% of the square footage, making it an outstanding $1400 a square foot, if it's a 2 family. And the market for that duplex, without a good public school nearby? Pretty limited.
3. Finally, the number of people who could buy that is really limited. A 4 family is one thing, but a 1 family for 4 million dollars? Sounds great, but you better have DEEP POCKETS for that.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 2, 2006 7:40 PM
This house is worth the money. Just try to live through a renovation and you will know that just buying in to a done house is worth the money if you can afford it. $2m would get you a gut reno on your hands 5 yrs ago in the W. Villlage. $1m would have gotten you the same in Ft. Greene. Most properties on the market throughout Brooklyn are tired at best. To find a done house is really rare. Somebody will understand this. p.s. I'm not the broker, but live in the area and love the house.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 2, 2006 10:10 PM
It ain't worth 3.75. Period. It's the wrong "park block" for that kind of money. Say what you want, the owners bought it for 1,250,000 in 2002. 200% growth in value in 4 years? I call b.s. They should be happy to take what they put in (300k?) and 10% per annum compounded, or 2.25 roughly. Any more than that either a. they got ripped off in the reno, or b. they're greedy, or c. both.
If I'm them, I try to take my chips off the table at 2.25 or above. It's Fort Green, not the West Village. Any comparison between the two is dumb.
If they claim they put 600k in, fine, it still works out to 2.6 or so for the house. Anything more than that is not making sense. Especially in this market.
That block IS nice. But the surrounding areas aren't. That's just a fact. Myrtle Ave. ain't Horatio St., I wish it was.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 2, 2006 11:32 PM
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