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September 8, 2006
REBNY Report: Brooklyn Real Estate Still Rockin'
A mid-year report from the Real Estate Board of New York shows that Brooklyn real estate prices remain very strong, despite a broad market slowdown around the country. On top of that, some Brooklyn nabes are doing better than Manhattan. The average sales price for one- and two-family Brooklyn houses for the first half of '06 was $586,000 - a 15.6 percent jump from the $507,000 seen in the same period last year - while prices for Brooklyn co-ops and condos also continued to increase. The average apartment sold for $491,000 in the first six months of this year - up 4 percent from $472,000 for the same period last year. "Brooklyn's always had its unique characteristics and has been a first choice of many buyers, but now more and more people are moving to Brooklyn from Manhattan because prices are cheaper and it's a great option," said Michael Slattery, REBNY's senior vice president.
Brooklyn's Real Estate Bucks Market [NY Post]
Photo by davidfg
Comments
Typically sloppy, superficial real estate ariticle in Post that mixes two very different statistics. It says something about Brooklyn 'bucking' trend. But then states the trend is fewer SALES nationally compared to prior year. Then states PRICES are up in Brooklyn from last year.
Posters on this site also jumble their info. Number of sales - called slower market is not the same thing as prices falling. Reporter doesn't say that nationally prices are down.
PS - Can't they just write article about Brooklyn without inserting 'fuhgeddaboutit'. Really is tiresome.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 9:48 AM
All Lies the market is down and you know it.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 10:23 AM
Does anyone know the number of houses that traded in Brooklyn? Is there a breakdown by neighborhood? It would be really interesting to compare 2005 and 2006 in this regard. I've always thought it difficult to truly quantify real estate markets because the amount of product traded is so small. And the quality of what's traded might vary by quite a lot year-to-year.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 10:25 AM
Ohh so the whole market in the United States is down except brooklyn? LoL are they kidding me. I was out there bidding and sellers were coming down $150k to $300k on the prices. Get real
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 10:41 AM
The main problem with this fluff piece is that it mentions nothing about inventory (is it up or down substantially) or days on the market. In the short term (say year over year), both are much stronger indicators of a weakening market than price.
Posted by: morkfrombrooklyn at September 8, 2006 10:43 AM
10:41, so what did you end up buying?
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 10:59 AM
Nice picture of the pink house on Garfield though.. ain't it?
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 11:08 AM
Whats up with Cobble Hill. According to Post article, Cobble Hill, 1,2 family house homes are down 7.8%, while coops and condos down 19.9%!!
The average 2005 Cobble Hill 1,2 family house buyer is already down $139K and the average coop condo buyer is out $156K.
Meanwhile FG is about to become the 2nd priciest neigborhood in BK. Up 30%!! Go FG.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 12:15 PM
Cobble Hill and vicinity (like Tiffany Place etc) are flooded with condo inventory *and* existing apartment sales inventory still offered at unrealistic prices.
Those properties sit 6+ months (some 12+ months...) on market, and new apartments that come to market have to be either a) rare gems or b) marked considerably down (or extremely negotiable) to move quickly.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 12:44 PM
Oh, and the huge volume of upscale units that came to market in Dumbo, sopping up demand at the expense of other nearby neighborhoods (Heights, Cobble Hill etc).
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 12:54 PM
You've got it slightly wrong on Tiffany Place. I live on the block. The problem with the new condos at 20 and 60 Tiffany is that they just plain suck. 60 Tiffany is a really crappy renovation (thank you Mr. Scarano). 20 Tiffany is actually built really well, but the apartment layouts are badly designed. Quality still sells quickly.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 1:03 PM
1:21 - ever been in the eye of a hurricane?
Posted by: gpt at September 8, 2006 1:34 PM
Anno 10:59 I bought a 4 family townhome in Carroll Gardens and to be honest the seller took $225,000 off the asking price but I know the Home is down another $75,000 from what I paid. What can i do nothing but wait this out. While the building is 25% vacant i hope for the best.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 2:02 PM
NY Post get real!!
Posted by: QBorBK at September 8, 2006 2:10 PM
wow...the readership went from "charge" to "growl" in a matter of months...
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 2:17 PM
Dropping an asking price is not same thing as selling prices are falling.
Many people ask more than value to begin with in hot or slow or regular markets.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 2:37 PM
It is over folks, get real the market is begining a hard crash put your seatbelts on.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 2:43 PM
I for one will be happy when the 'crash' comes. Brooklyn used to be an exciting outpost/mecca for really cool people; fashionistas, artists, intellectuals and plain old hard-working middle class folks. It used to be fun and interesting.
Now it's been over-run by materialistic yuppies who traded their soul for the almighty $$. And all they can do at this point is whine and growl because they're finding themselves outpriced by an even richer population of gentrifiers.
Go home y'all...there are no more 'deals' to be had. Don't even think about coming to the bk when the crash happens...we don't want you here.
Bring on the 'crash' and the return to utopia; bring on the pimpers paradise.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 3:27 PM
The artcile is almost as funny as the new trend amongst real esatte brokers to counter the cooling market. Instead, of listing the house in a range that intelligent people will buy at, they list the house at an amount higher than they could have received before the obvious market decline in hopes someone completely ignorant to the situation will buy. These practices are what will actually cause a crash, because in time the prices will look like they are falling 30-40% instead of what really was a 10-20% market correction, some people will panic and sell for even less, and possible start a trend to crash the market. The greed of brokers is really amazing as they bite off their nose to spite their face.
Posted by: Dbor at September 8, 2006 3:57 PM
Hate to break it to you Anon at 3.27pm, but whether or not there is a 'crash' as you say (I don't think there will be a 'crash' just a flattening of crazy appreciation and some dropping in prices too to the levels of a few years back but let's assume there will be a 'crash'), the 'yuppies' and 'richer population of gentrifiers' you seem to hate so much won't be going anywhere. In fact, if there is really a 'crash' in prices, those wealthy boring people are going to buy even more in your beloved neighborhoods so that they can realize on those properties when the market turns back around.
Posted by: lp at September 8, 2006 4:01 PM
I agree with you lp that a lot of this talk about impending doom is being fueled and inspired by greedy and gluttonous sharks who have run out of poor people to bilk. They're salivating and drooling like rabid dogs because they have suddenly become the victim of their own design. Everything in real estate is cyclical. Bigger sharks always come along. The gentrified will eventually find themselves displaced by a wealthier bunch. Call it karma.
Believe it or not, hundreds of thousands of people led quiet, contented lives in brooklyn before the onslaught of gentrification...and those same people will continue to lead a rich life 'after' the crash. They came to brooklyn for reasons other than to get rich quick or to join the lot of pretentious home-owners. They weathered the worst of crime and poverty. So they really have no incentive to panic because someone claims the sky is falling. They will continue to live life just as they did ten years ago.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 4:28 PM
and to address your point of the wealthy boring people buying up properties after the crash, people are wising up. They might seem old, illiterate and backwards but they're no longer stupid. Blogs aren't the only grapevine. The streets have a media outlet of their own. Only a fool living under a rock for the last three years would be unaware of the present and future value of his/her home. There are no more deals to be had...even when the market crashes.
It's going to take one heck of a Houdini to pull the wool over poor people's eyes the next time around.
I'm amazed at the sense of 'entitlement' that is so arrogantly displayed here. No one would ever think about complaining that they're entitled to a luxury apartment on the upper east side...so why is there this prevailing notion that brooklyn homeowners should trade with their property for little or nothing.
The same thing that happened is Boston will happen here. People will just pull their properties off the market if they can't get their asking price.
The materialistic yuppies will suffer disproportionately more than the rest of us. For they are the ones who took out exotic loans. So if you want to be cannibalistic and eat your own kind, go right ahead.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 4:43 PM
If you folks are so bearish on real estate why aren't capitalizing on the downward market trends, i.e., buying put options or writing calls in Realogy (H: NYSE)or simply shorting the common. Realogy owns Corcoran, Allan Schneider (now Corcoran), Century 21, Coldwell Banker, ERA and Sotheby's International Realty. The home builders are another play too. Ahhhhh....just think about it - if you invest prudently over the next few years a Brooklyn Heights mansion on Willow surely awaits you in 2008.... ;-)
Posted by: BrownBomber at September 8, 2006 4:47 PM
Anon 4.28 and 4.43 (assume you are the same person). You misunderstand me. I don't feel sorry for anyone who has sold their homes to yuppies or other well off people. No one tricked them or forced them to do so. I am one of those well off people by the standards tossed around on this site.
My point was that if there is a crash as anon 3.27pm is hoping for, it will not have the effect of returning brownstone brooklyn's prime areas into the working class enclaves they were in the mid 20th century. The gentrifiers and others will simply see a drop in market prices as a time to buy low in the prime areas, and ultimately, in the long term, the market will rise again.
I also disagree that the 'yuppies' you describe are the people taking out exotic loans for townhouses they live in. I'm not talking about speculative investment in non-owner occupied condos. The will not be leaving in droves if there is crash in prices.
Furthermore, no wool was pulled over any poor sellers' eyes (in fact, if they sold in the last 5-10 years, they are likely no longer "poor"). Long time residents who have sold their homes recently made a good financial decision if they were in fact poor to begin with, and decided to sell their houses because of steep increases in value. Sound financial decisions such as that is how people change their lot in life, and that of future generations of their family. I count them fortunate and smart to have had the foresight to have bought, and not rented, in what were considered bad areas in the 1970s and 1980s. Their investments in their communities and the risks they took paid off financially. So well done to the "poor" people who had the wool pulled over their eyes. Give me a break. No one forced them to sell. They are not victims. Good grief.
Posted by: lp at September 8, 2006 4:59 PM
Love everyone getting all mushy and sentimental for pre-getrification Brooklyn. When I first moved to Brooklyn in the early 80s (which were peachy times compared to what I hear about the late 70s) you looked over your shoulder every time you went out at night. I lived here for all of a week before my car was stolen. Two weeks before my roommate got mugged. Not everything about gentrification is postive, but thee have been way more prs than cons. I wonder if anyone getting all misty about the old days was actually around during the old days. There has been a tremendous improvement in the quality of Brooklyn and that has shown up in real estate prices. That said, buying a brownstone can but a white knuckle experience. If you buy a house where you can afford the payments and you plana to live there for 10+ years, you will be happy with the result. If you don't plan to live there that long, you shouldn't buy. The transaction costs (bor both buying and selling) are so high, that it just doen't make sense otherwise. A final word to anyone waiting to buy at the bottom which is that it's very difficult to know when you're at the bottom. If you were thinking about buying a house in Sept. 12th 2001, I think everyone would have said you were crazy and that prices had no where to go but down. Not exactly what happened.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 5:16 PM
They 'did' have the wool pulled over their eyes because the first wave of gentrifiers post 2001 bought low. This is so typical of gentrification. Poor people sell low only to realize that if they had held on to their property for another 3-5 years they could have sold it for upwards of ten times the amount that they parted with it for.
If I sound angry its because a large majority of the 'cheapskates' and piranhas that are now vociferously complaining about prices and trying to discount every property that is profiled are only doing so because they've suddenly found themselves outpriced and out done.
They're probably angry because they no longer can come in and swoop up quality housing for a steal and flip it 3 years later for exponentially more.
They seem to think that just because they're young and rich, but not rich enough apparently to buy anything in brooklyn, all they need to do is complain and the world should automatically bend, lean and cave-in to their needs, wants and desires.
Property values throughout the borough should drop overnight and return to where it was 3 years ago so that they can join their buddies and drive up the prices the next year.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 5:28 PM
Anon at 5.28, you make no sense. You clearly have a warped view of the world and a chip on your shoulder.
Also, any "first wave" of gentrifiers (and it did not start as late as 2001) in an "unestablished area", for lack of a better term, are going to pay less than when the area takes off. I really don't see your point other than that you have issues with people complaining if they have more money than you. Sure, it's annoying to hear them complain (though I'm not sure where you get this daily onslaught of bitching young rich people who aren't "rich enough"), but your logic seems flawed. It sounds like you have a bee in your bonnet about people with money and gentrification generally and are tryingto make some strange argument about how upper middle class people want a crash in the market so they can take advantage of poor people.
Bizzare.
Posted by: lp at September 8, 2006 5:36 PM
I was just waiting...for that chip on the shoulder comment.
How original!
Don't you think the new century requires new code words or terminologies.
How did you ever get so far ahead in life...you obviously don't seem to think for yourself.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 5:50 PM
The market post-2003 has always been overpriced but it didn't become newsworthy until the cheapskate yuppies began to complain.
Where do I get my fodder...they rip apart perfectly good homes on a daily basis on this site just because they're bored at work. How does the saying go ...'Idle Hands Are The Devil's Tools'.
On any given day, the comments posted on this blog are so overwhelmingly negative that I'd hate to think that any of these critics might one day become a neighbor of mine. Better for them to stay on the big island.
They seem to believe that they're the arbiter of good taste when they probably don't even have a pot to piss in.
They're creating a frankenstein that might come back and bite them in the a_s years from now when they try to sell their townhouse or condo. Hope their shitbox becomes the house of the day and gets the same treatment that they doled out years earlier.
Here's a novel idea...why not let the market work itself out on its own. If the house is junk, it won't sell.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 6:02 PM
CNN ranks New York City 24 out of 25 counties with the best incomes. Guess what San Jose and San francisco are #1 and #2 and guess where those house prices are going. Down, Down, Down. So much for we are wealthy and have the Stock market Idea. Brooklyn and New York city will get really hurt by this market.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 6:13 PM
There outa be a law against gentrifying, boring, materialistic exotic-loan-taking out, wool-pulling-over-eyes yuppies. They spend all their money on exotic cheeses and expensive vacations so they dont have any money left to buy real estate, so they muscle in on cool neighborhoods in Brooklyn and cheat the poor people out of their brownstones. Or maybe they're ripping down the community center to build their ugly concrete block shitbox condos with stainless steel appliances. Either way, damn them.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 8, 2006 7:25 PM
seriously though - I thought that part ( garfield north of 7 th ave) was historically designated. To each their own I get it, but if you ever have walked by the pepto house they sloppily and apparently again with no consideration to their neighbors splattered a fair bit of paint on the immediate house's stoop. Fine if you want to be an A hole and paint your house like a mental patient with fingerpaints but at least keep it on your own property.
Posted by: anon at September 8, 2006 9:58 PM
You know I was going back and forth with lp earlier, and we had our disagreements. But I gotta side with lp on this one some of you folks are crazy. Wool over people’s eyes?!? Huh? Gentrifiers getting cannibalized, wtf? The market has ran up too fast too soon so it’s going to correct itself. As far people getting robbed blind I don't think so. Plus BK 2006 is waayyyyy different than BK 1986 or 1996. I still will not walk a few blocks late at night, but it is a much better place to live.
Posted by: QBorBK at September 8, 2006 11:03 PM
I really learn from the architecture, planning and development debate on Brownstoner. But the debate on class structures and market prices leaves me cold. The yuppies have always been damn good neighbors.
Prices go up, prices go down, wealthier people have the market advantage in both situations because they have greater access to captital. But a monkey with access to capital can make money in a rising real estate market. A lot of people pat themselves on the back for being so shrewd because their property has appreciated.
I lived in Cobble Hill until about 1978. I rented. Everyone I knew rented, my family had a rent controlled thing. I didn't. The rents went up too fast for my blood when the yuppies started moving in (that was 28 years ago). I moved out, raised my kids, eventually bought a piece of property that grew in value, sold it and moved back to Carrol Gardens. I couldn't afford the rent in 1978 but I can afford to buy now. My income is much higher of course, so is my wife's, but most of my down payment came from the wild appreciation in a very non-yuppie, ethnic and civil service neighborhood in the outer reachs of Brooklyn.
There is a French concept known as the "bon prix" or good price. A bon prix is any price that a buyer and seller agree on, thats the price. Only by actually concluding a sale is the bon prix established. Dropping an asking price is nothing, asking for a lot is nothing.
I have an uncle on one of the really great blocks in Cobble Hill who has owned his building "since the year of the flood". Last year he put it on the market for 1.6 complete with the collectors item Italian-American linoleum and panelling he put on the building in the 1950s. He was offered 2.2 but his wife couldn't leave the house where her mother lived and died so he backed out. He is getting a little older now and has a cheap joint in FLA. He is talking about putting it back on the market, I don't think he will see anything close to that 2.2 again. Does that mean the yuppies took advantage of him? I don't think so. The 1.6 would have been about 1.5 profit.
People should not either break their arms patting themselves on the back or feel guilty for out-foxing the old neighbors. Prices are going up until they go down.
Value is a different thing than price. The neighborhood is still valuable, close to Manhattan, good food, high stoops, mass transit connection (there used to be lots of churches and not so many bars). None of those values are going to change whether the bon prix rises or falls.
I'm personally rooting for prices to fall. Watch when they do, all the geniuses won't know what to do. Even those with liquid assets will be frozen in place in expectation of a lower price tomorrow. It is easy to know what to do when you expect prices to go higher eternally.
For me the real issue is rent. My tenant pays $1600 but I could get more right now. As long as the rent price keeps going up I'm cool because, like the other guy said I'm not going anywhere. If I was all leveraged or wanted to leverage more it would be different.
Hope I contributed to the debate and didn't go on too long for you guys.
Posted by: Nicolo Macchiavelli at September 9, 2006 8:21 PM
Interesting that REBNY hasn't released its data on its site, rebny.com
The last report it did in june was a spin too, with prices mentioned but not a word about inventory (which it had mentioned without fail in prior reports)
Anecdotally, I've noticed nothing but flat to declining prices for houses, coops and condos in Brooklyn -and an utter end to bidding wars. It could be that the median price is going up because the only folks that can afford to buy are very rich, thus skewing the numbers higher.
Posted by: Alo at September 10, 2006 9:01 AM
For the record to the various Anons, I don't like it when people "rip apart" houses on this site either. I think it is irresposible. And my comment about someone hoving a chip on their shoulder is not "code". It is my opinion. The odd logic that evil rich yuppies who are priced out of Brookly Heights are using brownstoner forums as a way to bring down prices in marginal nabes so they can swoop in an steal poor peoples houses is silly.
That said, I am not a fan of super critical bashing of homes and nabes and classes of people on this site. It gets tiresome. I liked the typekey thing, it kept the discourse civil and more on point.
Posted by: lp at September 11, 2006 11:15 AM
The REBNY report does *not* have the number of transactions in any category, which is not only frustrating, but unlike the Manhattan reports that REBNY puts out. They have data for “apartments” and for “one- and two-family dwellings” in four categories, in 18 Brooklyn neighborhoods: average and median sale prices, and average and median price per foot. They compare the first half of 2006 to the first half of 2005.
With so many neighborhoods, one must wonder how many transactions they have in their data set.
What is weird (and frustrating) is that in the Manhattan reports, they are *so* granular. To the point of showing that (for example) there were two sales of condo apartments that were between 1501 sq ft and 1800 sq ft between Third Av and York and from 87th St to 96th St in Q2 06.
They must have the same detail in Brooklyn, but they chose not to share.
Posted by: Sandy Mattingly at September 11, 2006 12:20 PM
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