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August 31, 2006

Renovating on the Cheap in New York City

house
The House & Home section today uses the quest of the former editor and chief of Dwell magazine to find the perfect house for $100 a foot as a jumping off point to investigate whether in New York City it was possible to do a gut renovation for that number. They look at six renovations across the city that ranged from the Red Hook house above for $67 a foot to a Tribeca loft for $180 a foot. We know first hand that it's possible: We did our house for about $75 a foot. We could have easily spent double that and close inspection quickly reveals numerous imperfections. Certain things don't bother us, like the layers and layers of accumlated paint on the door moldings; others, like way the contractor mounted the old marble sink in the guest bathroom too close to the side wall, will bother us for the next twenty years. But the way we look at it is that an old house like ours is a lifelong project and, plus, we couldn't have afforded to buy it if a "perfect" renovation was the only option. And, like most things, it looks great by candlelight!

We'd love to hear what readers have spent on their "on the cheap" renovations.

The Cheap Fix [NY Times]




Posted by Brownstoner at 9:25 AM | Comments (28)
Categories: Renovation Blog

Comments


You can't compare the cost of apartment renovations to townhouse renovations. There's so much more involved with gutting a townhouse. Also, there are so many different levels of renovation, that simply asking people what they spent per square foot is rather pointless.

I consider a total renovation to be gutting an entire townhouse to the beams and studs, replacing everything including all plumbing, electric, and heating and cooling systems.

Anything less is just a thirty minute tv show, not a real renovation.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 31, 2006 9:46 AM

See, I don't get this "by the foot" concept of cost. Well, in theory, yes--adjusting for the difference between a cottage and a 4,000-square-foot brownstone, right. But doesn't this calculation require you to be, as it were, "done"? Is anyone ever actually "done"?
(Oh, wait a minute, some of those houses on the house tours looked pretty darn "done." Okay, I recuse myself as a member of the Do-One-Floor-Per-Decade Club...this doesn't work for us.)

Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at August 31, 2006 9:47 AM

If it is any consolation.... people I know that have had the more expensive contractors ....average the same number of problems, imperfections, mistakes,delays, frustrations... as anyone else.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 31, 2006 9:47 AM

I renovated my house inside and out for less than $30, 000. http://renovatingonthecheap.blogspot.com/2006/06/ressurecting-facade-part-ii.html

Posted by: anon at August 31, 2006 10:04 AM

We've done huge renos on homes before...never going over $100k. That's when we had the time to do most of the work ourselves. Our current brownstone needed to be done quickly, so we had to call in contractors to help. This is by far the most expensive and stressful reno we've been through (ok, maybe I say that every time). 4 story, 2600 sq ft, 2 floors gutted, 2 floors restoration of plaster and details, replaced plumbing, upgraded electric, new kitchens, baths, all friggen paint stripped (by me-thankyouverymuch), floors leveled, structural work, yada, yada....when all is said and done (because it's not yet), we'll have paid close to $200k. The bulk of this was contractors. I spent alot of time finding salvaged items such as cabinets, bathroom vanities, tubs, lights and doors, which saved us buying costly new crap. And now that we look at the finished rental, there are things we wish we had done differently. There are also things we're still working on that I know we're rushing (finish work only). What I want to know is this...does every one feel that there is always something that bothers them or is there anyone out there who is 100% satisfied with their renovation/restoration?

Posted by: Yente at August 31, 2006 10:45 AM

I have a 2820 foot brownstone. For approximately 150,000, I got all new windows (landmark approved), and gut renovation of three floors and hallway, tree removal plus paver brick patio. I didn't do the work but it was very hands on. The fixtures are above builders grade and my apartment, the duplex, while not Architectural Digest, is pretty nice. I played the role of architect and project manager. Even though I had a contractor, a lot of the historial stuff required specialists. About not being satisfied, there are some things that did not turn out the way I wanted, though, in response to Yente's question. The kitchen was a botch job, bad cabinet quality was ultimately fixed by Kraftmaid, but I hate the glaze of the kitchen and had to battle Home Depot for tons of problems (got half my money back) and now I'm trying to decide to keep it and improve the color with lighting and nice countertop or donate the whole thing for a tax deduction and start over. I am so delirously tired though of the renovation though, (living elsewhere, driving in to Brooklyn, inspecting work, going to my day job, coming back working on the house, etc.) that I am thinking of keeping the ugly kitchen, which is half installed. I am trying to decide. It's a pretty tiring and disruptive experience though. I'm finishing up and afraid I'll start saying the hell with it.... You definately need energy and stamina for a low budget renovation, that is for sure....

Posted by: anonymous at August 31, 2006 11:17 AM

I have a co-op and the only thing that really bothers me that I want to take care of is the shower hot water faucet sprays hot water straight out. I have been told that to replace it the tiles around it would have to be broken up to get in there. So then of course if you're doing that, you want to do the rest right. Maybe take out the tub and make it just a shower. Who knows. But any suggestions are welcome.

Posted by: Ken at August 31, 2006 12:09 PM

Yente and anon - how wide and deep are your houses? 4 stories for Yente with only 2820 square feet sounds too low?

Posted by: Anonymous at August 31, 2006 12:48 PM

Ken, I doubt you'e have to take the tiles out to fix the faucet. That is very unlikely. You just need to be able to turn the water off to that faucet - which in a coop, if there is not an accessible shut off valve for your apartment, might affect others in your building while the water is off.
A reputable plumber can tell you if you do not have the experience to do it yourself. The Gateway Plumbing guys adveristed on this site are good in my experience.

Posted by: lp at August 31, 2006 12:53 PM

I'll be finishing in a month or so a four floor plus cellar, close-to-gut renovation in Park Slope for $140/sf, excluding architect costs (my time) and rent while the construction is happening.

• new bulkhead / roof access
• central A/C
• 2 1/2 baths, sauna, W/D
• new kitchen
• new fireplaces (1 wood, 2 gas)
• new plumbing, 2 HWHs
• new electrical and lighting throughout
• new steel / ipé deck and door to deck
• new wood windows on front facade, new steel windows at the party wall
• new parlor sycamore floors
• new rental unit w/maple floors, kitchen, bath, W/D and two tiny bedrooms
• (my favorite) a new tree and tree guard -- thank you, CB6!

We only kept the rear windows, the roof, oak strip flooring on two floors, the boiler and radiators, the staircase, and we recycled the old kitchen into the rental kitchen, and many of the doors could be stripped and reused. Everything else had to go.


--an architect in Brooklyn

Posted by: Anonymous at August 31, 2006 1:41 PM


Who do you folks find are usually cheaper, the Mexicans, Russians, or Chinese?

Which ones do the best work and are the most reliable?


Posted by: Anonymous at August 31, 2006 2:15 PM

12:48, I don't even have 2820 sq ft. Mine is 2600+. It's one of those hidden 4th stories that you can't see from the street. The 4th floor is smaller sq footage than the other floors. My price also includes 8 months of mortgage without tenants while also paying mortgage on our primary residence upstate. Like the architect, it does not include my time (took a year off to do this) or my husband's (structural engineer-works on house weekends,etc). And like anon 11:17 (whom I would think is my husband posting if we had Kraftmaid cabinets), I'm too tired now to fix things I don't like.
11:47, are you sure your contractors are trying to rip you off? There is always some underlying problem you don't see until you rip the house apart. Your contractors may just be trying to do the right thing. Not that I'm a contractor advocate.

Posted by: Yente at August 31, 2006 2:26 PM

we own a 3-story TH plus basement in one of the better BS nabes. we are currently renovating our basement - near completion through a popular, but high-priced contractor working the hood exclusively. We received an estimate of approximately $45 bucks per feet but our running tab suggests much higher. by the time we finish i think we'll be looking at $60 to $70 per feet--easily. But we're happy in knowing that we'll have a first-rate space when completed.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 31, 2006 3:04 PM

We are in the middle of a total reno (all new plumbing, electric, central air - 4 systems, 2 kitchens, 4 baths) landmark windows front and back, 2 decks, brick patio, stripping all of the very extensive woodwork, etc - about $100 sqft.

Posted by: Gary at August 31, 2006 3:20 PM

I'm about to start a reno on a center slope 3-story TH. I decided to work with an architect (young guy, seems very trustworth -- but who knows?) despite the added cost. I figure I'll make it up in the headaches that become his, rather than mine. What do you think? Also -- why are people like the people in this article so obsessed with things like backsplashes, countertops and appliances?

Posted by: Joe at August 31, 2006 3:47 PM

Gary who is doing the woodwork. I would love to have mine done? Are you happy with the work so far?

Posted by: Anonymous at August 31, 2006 7:49 PM

Gary, Where did you get your windows? we are researching replacing the windows in our landmark area house.

Posted by: dt at August 31, 2006 8:31 PM

i did a mid-high end reno in a 3 fl townhouse roughly 2700sf, 80% gut job, all new plumbing, heating, electric, hw floors , custom kitchen with mid range appliances, 2.5 baths, 5 bedrooms, finished english basement..for 55psf...if I exclude the basement, and deduct some sf it would come to 63sf.. all I did was project manage and take care of some of garbage (courtesy of NYC's strongest)

Posted by: wt at August 31, 2006 9:11 PM

The article makes no sense at all. The whole premise of the article is that the journalist wishes to buy a home for $100,000. But the article appears to be about renovating a house for that amount. It really is badly conceived as a premise.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 31, 2006 9:25 PM

I agree with the poster at 9:25,
(like so often at the NY times) the article is poorly written gibberish.

It has little to do with the title of the book.

Posted by: Anonymous at September 1, 2006 2:18 AM

Let's talk flooring options...brownstoner is there any way people can post photos of what they've done to their floors in their homes? We have to figure out what to do in place of wood flooring in hallways and in the kitchen which is being renovated. All the options: wood, engineered, reclaimed wood, distressed engineered, tile to look like stone, ceramic tiles that look like wood. Makes my head spin. Love to see your pix if possible. Thanks.

Posted by: Anonymous at September 1, 2006 2:26 AM

I am the person with the 2820 brownstone and I spent 150,000. It is a renovation of a horrible renovation and I did not remove all walls. Although I never picked up a hammer or brush, I was very involved and had to work with a crew that was doing multiple jobs, so it was a little nerve wracking. Also, the top floor I left alone. I bought it with tenants in it who are organized and applied pressure on the former landlord to keep in in shape, renovate kitchen etc, so it is liveable and has tenants so I left it alone -- for now anyway. The tenants, who are neat freaks lived through the renovation, so it wasn't easy for them, but I did everything in my power to minimize the impact on them. Also, I did not rip out all plumbing (though I found some ugly surprises when we opened walls and had to do a lot of plumbing repair, ie, the former owner never vented the pipes from the ground floor bathroom and kitchen!!! So that was the disgusting smell!!!!). Also, I did not completely rewire the building but had it all checked out and replaced most of what was in the renovated floors. My brownstone is skinny, hence 4 floors and 2820 square feet.
I am also not of the one floor per decade school. I can't wait to get this completely finished. I have done all of this work in 1 year and 9 months and that included the delightful experience of evicting one of the sets of tenants which could make a good movie to compete with Money Pit, Burnt offerings and Pacific Heights. I have about 1 month of work left and after that I am taking a vacation to contemplate having a normal life. OK, a more normal life.....

Posted by: anonymous at September 1, 2006 10:08 AM

i posted earlier and commented on the gut reno of our basement of which we are using a major contractor (we also used an architect to draw up our plans). however, we project manage and oversee every single detail - with a fine-magnifying glass i might add. we're picky and choosy. everything aesthetically and otherwise has to be just right! this is all time consuming so eventually all this stuff can get to you. but the flip side of conducting a reno like this yourself is that fortunately you get to approve (or disapprove) everything your contractor does which makes easier. the basement is our last project but we also managed our entire 4-floors of renovation which turned out "architectural digest" beautiful. And we're women!

Posted by: Anonymous at September 1, 2006 1:20 PM

We had an excellent contractor who'd we'd used previously to do an extensive, though not completely gut renovation 5 years ago. Central air, new and expensive boiler, all new landmark-OK'd windows, completely redone high-end kitchen and baths, central air, moved all interior walls, and decorative paint job. Total was $130 psf (excluding cost of architect). Took about 14 months (part of it was our changing our minds as we went along), almost dissolved our marriage, but now we're extremely happy and there's only tiny things we'd change if we had it to do over.

Posted by: anon in b heights at September 1, 2006 4:39 PM

i had to gut 4 floors and 6 apartments and the basement. my guy did it in record time of 5 months. leveling and rebuilding the back side of the building, all new plumbing, wiring, new floors, walls, kitchen, bath room and all. cost me about 300k. i did all the design myself, contractor did the rest. there are minor flaws in places like they didnt screw tight the cabinet doors etc...but only minor. other wise i'm very happy with what i paid for.

thank god my parents know the contractor for years. he done alot of work for them.

Posted by: Armchair_warrior at September 1, 2006 7:27 PM

I need to defend contractors a bit. Not all are bad. I have a family member who is one, and I think he does very nice work and has a very good eye for detail and very good w/ the finishing touches, that many times are very inexpensive but really make a huge difference in look and feel of your home.
What many of us are not asking is, why did the contractor walk out on me? We always hear horror stories of bad contractors but what about there side. I am sure they have horror stories of crazy, unrealistic home owners. I was told of one customer who would call his contractor at 11pm every night. What about people who don't want to pay a lot but want high end work. I think it's a 2 sided street here. Also as far as pricing, many times contractors don't included the unexpected and that's when it starts costing some bucks and well I think every one agrees when you are renovating always expect the unexpected..

Posted by: Anonymous at September 2, 2006 8:49 AM

We need to renovate our new apartment on the UES and would love to get recommendations for a contractor and an architect. Please email ayelet32@gmail.com. Thanks!!!

Posted by: guest at December 1, 2007 2:36 PM

you should of tried
renovatemyapartment.com

Posted by: guest at January 29, 2008 5:08 PM

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