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August 15, 2006

Condos of the Day: 241 Norman Avenue

building house
The concept behind 241 Norman is interesting--condos for artists that sell at a discount because they are zoned commercial--and the location seems appropriate. Obviously this is a wink-wink look-the-other-way situation where everyone will end up living there and hoping that no one from DOB or the fire department decides to make life difficult for them. Of course, given the direction of the nabe--and the fact that this building falls just feet from the residential zoning line--it's also entirely possible that these could go legit at some point in the near future. The raw space looks nice, too. The bigger question is how much of a discount are you getting if you buy these for $500 a foot but still have to build out a kitchen (and more than likely upgrade the bathroom)? Dunno. Has anyone checked them out?
241 Norman Avenue [Greenpoint Lofts] GMAP
Lofty Commercial Condo for Sale [Craigslist]
Opportunity for Artists in Greenpoint [Curbed]




Posted by Brownstoner at 11:02 AM | Comments (20)
Categories: Condos

Comments

You forgot to mention that you also have to build out the bathroom. Also, the W/D hookups are sketchy at best. My wife and I looked very seriously at these, especially since we have lived in the area and are very comfortable there. The economics just did not add up, especially when you consider the higher financing costs (loan terms are less agreeable due to the risk and we even have a very high FICO).
We were still open to these, despite the financing issues, until after we actually saw the unit. Shoddy would be an understatement when describing the construction. Paper thin walls, ill-fitted windows, concealed old paint (under the sheet rock around the windows and likely leaded). The amenity list is a bait-and-switch. That "gym" is a private gym that the developer "is working on" getting comped memberships for. That "storage space" is actually a poorly constructed cubby built into the ceiling.
We never read the offering plan, but the croney representing these warned us that there was legally objectionable language peppered in to protect the developer from "unique" situations. Sounded really fishy to me.
My take is that the people buying these are those who can barely afford them, getting duped by the "affordability" and not considering all the other factors. If this had been built like 55 Berry at these prices, I would have taken the risk, but not when they are built like 1067 Fulton. Stay far away from this "project". This is a case of a greedy developer taking dangerous shortcuts and setting people up for a quick profit.

Posted by: gpt at August 15, 2006 2:02 PM

In addition, the ad says you can install a shower and/or kitchen. This is actually not permitted for commercial uses (which these units would have to pass for) as of March 06. See the DOB website for details at http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/html/reference/tppn0106.shtml.

Posted by: anon at August 15, 2006 2:33 PM

We were of the understanding that you can have a shower but not a bathtub in a commercial loft; at least, that was the case back in 2000 when we lived in a commercial loft in Manhattan.

Posted by: brownstoner at August 15, 2006 3:39 PM

You can have anything you want, as long as nobody ever inspects and owner or condo board doesn't object.

But moving into commercial or manufacturing space is so illegal, not to mention risky and a pain in the neck if you don't know certain things. Like who's gonna collect your trash? How's the fire department gonna know who's living there and who isn't if, god forbid, there's a fire? And, if there is a fire, how are you gonna make your insurance company pay to replace all your residential stuff? Plus, you're gonna be paying commercial utility rates...been there, done that.

and shame on you, bstoner, for having lived in illegal commercial space, especially since some of your posts have bashed legal loft tenants for standing in the way of gentrification.

Posted by: ex-lofter at August 15, 2006 3:54 PM

We've never bashed loft tenants, we've merely pointed out that they shouldn't have perpetual rights to stay in their lofts paying 1983-level rents or be able to block their landlords from doing what they want with their buildings. Big diff.

Posted by: brownstoner at August 15, 2006 4:01 PM

They look like a good deal to me. sure there are risks but investing in this type of space in this area is great.

where else are you going to find cheap lofts?

Posted by: Sally at August 15, 2006 5:38 PM

Just so you know, bstoner, the landlords of those tenants paying 1983 rents are entitled to 20% rent increases, plus many of the costs of bringing those lofts into residential compliance. This was part of the Loft Law, passed by the state legislature in 1982, ignored by landlords for more than 20 years, and unenforced by the city (shocking, isn't it?) for the same amount of time.

Posted by: ex-lofter at August 15, 2006 6:30 PM

Oh yeah, and nobody forced those landlords to rent lofts to residential tenants in the first place. They couldn't find commercial or manufacturing tenants, so they chose to ignore that law, too.

It's easy to blame tenants for paying low rents and getting in the way of development. But people should not be treated just as placeholders until a more lucrative deal comes along, especially when there are laws on the books to legalize these tenancies and provide landlords with additional income.

Posted by: ex-lofter at August 15, 2006 6:54 PM

Hey, we had a lease, paid our rent on time and then left. Not sure what your problem is ex-lofter.

Posted by: Brownstoner at August 15, 2006 9:05 PM

It is irresponsible for anyone to advocate that people live in buildings which aren't zoned for residential use and don't meet residential building codes because of a discounted price. I don't see that as a problem, bstoner. Sorry if you do.

Posted by: ex-lofter at August 15, 2006 11:32 PM

We weren't advocating anything, merely recognizing the realities of the marketplace.

Posted by: brownstoner at August 16, 2006 7:13 AM

There is a great loft building for sale in Clinton Hill right now. Someone should sell that as commerical (wink) lofts.

Posted by: Anonymouse at August 16, 2006 1:54 PM

strict non residential zoning applies to this bldg, so unless you and your wife were living in someplace like Asia, your dream mudhut just might be under the stairs... oops thats illegal too.

Posted by: dgetr at August 17, 2006 10:15 AM

Just an FYI, the address is actually 231 Norman Avenue. The one thing that really bothers me about these blogs is that people don't really take the time to research before posting.

I have read a few articles on this property and have actually looked at the website (that's where you can find the correct address) and this building seems really cool and a great deal for small businesses, such as my own, that are interested in owning their office space and being in a unique neighborhood, rather than in Manhattan paying through the roof for a lease.

As these blogs continue to become a source of information for a lot of people I really think it is about time the bloggers get the story straight or at least the address.

Posted by: bk2000 at August 17, 2006 10:22 AM

I looked at the property and I think its a great buy. A smart investor can use it as a commercial condo (which is a better investment anyhow today) and in few years, if the zonning changes, profit big time.

Posted by: investor at August 17, 2006 2:32 PM

Yeah great, except the lease rates on commercial condos are too low to cover your mortgage. So unless you plan to run your own business out of it, the economics still don't work.

Posted by: gpt at August 17, 2006 3:30 PM

i agree with "investor". It's the best thing you can get for your money in today's market. I saw it 10 years ago in the meat packing district and i see it now in Greenpoint. I'm going into contract next week.

Posted by: abc at August 18, 2006 12:48 PM

I am seriously considering a unit here for my business. The problems seem to be getting a loan at a "decent" interest rate (meaning not over 9%) and finding a bank to give the loan because this type of property is uncommon: commercial condos. Anyone else looking into these units and/or funding right now with any ideas? Since the contracts don't allow for financing contingencies, it makes it a bit more stressful (unless you are all cash). Also, wondering if there are people living in these spaces and they get caught, will it effect business owners in other units at all. Can't see that it would as it is a condo and not a co-op, but want to be sure. If any other small business owners/artists are considering buying these units, I'd love to chat!

Posted by: DHS at August 28, 2006 5:57 PM

DHS- you're better off investing in your business than these lofts.

Posted by: thfs at August 30, 2006 12:15 PM

thfs,

Can you back that up with some information? I'm not looking for opinions without some supporting evidence. I've seen too many people on this site, give misinformation out. BTW, investing in a business location IS an investment in one's business. The question is, is there something to be wary of here, specifically.

Thanks.

Posted by: DHS at August 31, 2006 12:24 PM

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