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July 14, 2006
Stepping Out On FG Park (For Almost $4 Mil!)
Wow. What can you say? A perfectly restored 4-story brownstone on what the ad claims to be the best block in Fort Greene. No one's going to argue (we don't think) with what a beauty this house. (Some of you have probably seen it first hand as it was on the house tour this year.) The price of $3.995 million, though, is staggering. Embedded in that price is the bold assertion that Fort Greene is now as desirable as, if not more than, Park Slope or Cobble Hill and that it is safely ahead of Boerum Hill. Granted, the parkside location ads something to the value, but we're not sure South Portland isn't a preferable address. 10 South Portland, which we discussed here, is an interesting comparable: It just went into contract this week for $2.65 million (interestingly enough, after being reduced from $3.495 million to $2.495, which in turn sparked a 4-way bidding war. Told ya so!) This Washington Park listing is clearly worth a good deal more than the South Portland one, but the asking price is clearly a Hail Mary. It remains to be seen whether anyone will catch it in the end-zone or whether the seller will have to start over and work the ball down the field the old-fashioned way. (Did that football analogy hold water? Bit of a stretch...)
Update: The address is 181 Washington Park just in from Willoughby.
"On The Park" [Brooklyn Properties] GMAP P*Shark
Comments
Forgot to ask: If anyone has the guidebook from the house tour, could you please look up the street number...Thanks
Posted by: brownstoner at July 14, 2006 9:38 AM
Not sure of the address, but I am sure that they wil NOT get CLOSE to this price. Maybe $3.1 or $3.2. But this is crazy talk.
Posted by: Anonymous13 at July 14, 2006 9:47 AM
If this were in super prime B Heights it would go for what, 4.5 to 5M? Even if FG were on par with the slope, it is not nearly that close to the Heights. And one can get a great house in the slope or even the Heights for this much, so this is limiting itself to those who truly prefer FG. So I'd agree that this is probably going to end up going for the low 3's. But, that said, it is a lovely house!
Posted by: b&binb at July 14, 2006 9:59 AM
There are so few of these houses on/near the park, that it might just get its asking. Also, seems like FG is changing really rapidly, so it's hard to compare to the staid markets like PS and BH -- FG has this really young, hipster vibe to it, maybe cause it's close to downtown, or pratt, or Williamsburg.
On the other hand: 4 mil for a standard brownstone? Saw in the NY times on sunday that the corner mansion on S. Portland and the park sold for under 3m. Even if it needs "renovation" thats still on S. Portland, and a corner, and huge.
Posted by: chris at July 14, 2006 10:25 AM
This is a truly beautiful brownstone
Posted by: TonyTone at July 14, 2006 11:08 AM
I would think that having a 17-years-dead racehorse in your back parlor would be bring price down a tad.
Posted by: Amy at July 14, 2006 11:35 AM
Yes, I agree. Very nice house and great block. But I agree with Brownstoner. I wouldn't say it's the best block. South Portland still rules. $4m is a lot! I can only imagine with Spike Lee's house would be worth now. It's spectacular. With that being said, if you had the $4m to spend, would you buy this house on Washington Park or the Pfizer mansion on Washington Avenue?!?! I'm leaning towards the Pfizer pleasure palace. Any thoughts?
Posted by: BrownBomber at July 14, 2006 11:59 AM
This house is swoon worthy. I can't imagine how the owners could part with it after all that work and attention to detail, that went into it. You would think they would want to kick back and enjoy the fruits of their labor.
Posted by: Arsenic and Old Lace at July 14, 2006 12:05 PM
Arsenic, I was thinking the exact same thing. Perhaps they want to move on to the next restoration project. If they get their price they should have plenty of money left over!
Posted by: BrownBomber at July 14, 2006 12:23 PM
B&B, I am one who truly prefers FG to the Slope or the Heights. Just so you know...we are out there!
BB (not to be confused with B&B), it seems that every time I finish a restoration project, I move on. Not for any particular reason other than insanity, but it haapens!
Anyway, it's a beautiful house. The person who buys it will be very lucky. And rich.
Posted by: yente at July 14, 2006 1:09 PM
I've been in this house a few times and it is an amazing home with a fantastic restoration. Plus, the block is great (I live on it). Is it worth almost $4 million? Well, that depends on what it means to you. Hopefully, the new owner will get to keep the chandelier.
Posted by: greenegirl at July 14, 2006 1:16 PM
Funny, BrownBomber, comparing this house and the Pfizer mansion also went through my head. I'd go for the Pfizer still, because it needs more work. This is a gorgeous house, and looks to be beautifully and lovingly restored. It really looks like an Important House. The deep pocketed people who go for this are going to get a beautiful showplace.
I love the irony of "best block" and the price, as I remember this block in the 70-80's when Pratt students were warned not to walk down this block alone. If you live long enough, everything changes. Nowadays it doesn't even take living that long.
Personally, lovely as is is, and it is droolworthy, it's too done for me. If I had that kind of money, I'd be more interested in buying a fixer upper that I could put my own spin on, and have the money to restore a wreck to its glory. I can fully understand moving on after a fine restoration as this, although I would stop and enjoy a job well done for at least a couple of years, which I'm sure these people have done.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at July 14, 2006 1:42 PM
If my husband agreed to live in FG, I'd buy this house for 2.5.
Posted by: brownstoneproud at July 14, 2006 2:30 PM
I have been in this many times and can attest to the attention to detail, care, and quality of workmanship that went into this house. It is a dream. That said, is it worth $4M? I think so. Where else can you live in Brooklyn that's as quiet as Washington Park AND directly fronts a 30-acre park? It's a rare opportunity for those reasons and for the additional reason of not having to put any work (tears, fears, and angst) into it whatsoever.
As for the debate on W.P. and South Portland, W.P. wins everytime!
Posted by: parkblocker at July 14, 2006 2:31 PM
I have been in this many times and can attest to the attention to detail, care, and quality of workmanship that went into this house. It is a dream. That said, is it worth $4M? I think so. Where else can you live in Brooklyn that's as quiet as Washington Park AND directly fronts a 30-acre park? It's a rare opportunity for those reasons and for the additional reason of not having to put any work (tears, fears, and angst) into it whatsoever.
As for the debate on W.P. and South Portland, W.P. wins everytime!
Posted by: parkblocker at July 14, 2006 2:31 PM
Why is there no central A/C -- the window A/Cs really bother me. Clearly not $4 mil worthy.
Posted by: Blabber at July 14, 2006 2:32 PM
Not to be "blockist" but Washington Park is much "better" than South Portland because you are looking at the park not another row of brownstones. Additionally to one of the other commentors: 10 South Portland is obviously not a corner lot. It is the house that went into contract for $2.65MM through that weird broker that's about 3 houses in from the corner - it's 5 floors and needs total renovation. The person who bought 10 South Portland is going to do it "right" so assume $300 per sq ft reno cost - the house is 4,500 sq ft so that is $2.65MM+$1.35MM=$4MM
Now would someone like to tell me why this pristine, unreal renovation (and yes I've been inside several times)in great taste and amazing quality right on the park is mispriced?
Posted by: Washingtonian at July 14, 2006 2:56 PM
Hhhhhhmmmmmm....I missed the window a/c units. When you're paying this much for a luxury property, isn't central air a must? Perhaps the owners viewed central air to be too intrusive and at odds with the period restoration?
Posted by: BrownBomber at July 14, 2006 3:14 PM
The "corner house" referred to by the previous poster was #1 South Portland, not #10. Both sold recently. The corner house sold for $2.85 million, according to the NY Times last week, and will reportedly be renovated for a single family. #10 sold for $2.6 or $2.65 (I've heard both) in a 4-part bid in which I was a participant.
Posted by: fortgreener at July 14, 2006 3:17 PM
As for the central AC, knock 100K off the price for the cost and headache of installing a top of the line, zoned, hvac system, the kind without the wall units...
Posted by: 1847 at July 14, 2006 3:25 PM
I can't comment on whether $4 million is "worth it" -- only the time and the market can tell -- but I will say that as a resident of a nearby park block, calling Washington Park "quiet" is just plain nutty. The park is a noisy place in the summer, from barbeque-ers to concerts to kids in the playground. And although the housing stock on this block is clearly spectacular, the block still has many grimy buildings in disrepair. It is not the "5th Avenue" of Fort Greene just yet.
Posted by: fortgreener at July 14, 2006 3:26 PM
I agree re the noise, though to characterize the block as having many grimy buildings in disrepair seems to be going a bit overboard imo. Maybe then end near Myrtle, but overall it is a nice block...though I would prefer a quieter one...
Posted by: 1847 at July 14, 2006 3:38 PM
I guess I characterize Washington Park as being quiet since personally, I can't hear any of the summer park noise from inside my house which is on the park and because unlike Prospect Park West, it's a one-lane, short street so you don't get the honking horns and sirens. As for FortGreener's post about the grimy buildings, well, there's no arguing there. However, it is, I think, fair to say that there are very few of them left as many have undergone or are undergoing renovation. It's all a matter of time, I suspect.
Posted by: parkblocker at July 14, 2006 3:58 PM
I know nothing about Fort Green. But this house in amazing. Are they selling it fully furnished, seems that everything was done to perfection and just a real eye for detail in every little thing. I wish I could afford it and all the furnishing. I get the window a/c but I can see why they did not put in central air as the moldings in the house are just amazing, I would not want to ruin those either....
But does any one live in this house, does not look lived in at all. I am sure they have no kids either!!!!!!!!!
What a house!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Alex22 at July 14, 2006 4:07 PM
It occurs to me that one of the things that makes this house so beautiful is the way it's furnished and decorated. I'm trying to imagine what it would look like filled with my junk.
It must be nice to move into a house where you don't have to change a light bulb or clean the fridge on day one.
Posted by: Hal at July 14, 2006 4:49 PM
This house is absolutely stunning. But, I disagree with you, Hal, in your observation that what makes it so are its furnishings and decorations. Instead, I'm actually trying to ignore the design scheme in order to get a better peek at the home's gorgeous bones. Just imagine, Hal, if you or I had the $4M to spend on a home like this, there would likely be no issue as to having the spare change needed to properly dress it!
Posted by: Gardensgal at July 14, 2006 5:23 PM
I think it's worth at least $3mm. I think it's totally fab, absolutely amazing.
I don't know FG all that well, but I know what my PS bstone cost to acquire and to renovate to high standards, and I have a pretty good idea how much time, effort, money, and sweat this home must have taken to create this work of art. I've already spent a small fortune on my home and it would still take me a few more years aof refinement and a couple hundred grand more to realize anything quite this extraordinary. At this point in life, I've decided it just ain't worth it to keep pouring more and money into my bstone (I would like to retire somewhere in the next 20 years). Still, if it were already all done for me, not another project to worry about (except that backyard could use a makeover), then I could see going for it.
Were I in the market, and relatively indifferent between PS and FG (key unknow), I would be willing to pay $3mm.
BTW, for those of you who question the window A/C, it is a real toss-up. It's a decision best made at the beginning of the reno, otherwise you have to destroy the place to retrofit it. If these folks have been renovating over a period of years, they may not have had the money to do it in the beginning and lost the oppty later on.
I'd still pay the $3mm even w/o central A/C.
Posted by: Miguel at July 14, 2006 6:11 PM
Based on what the owner has told me and what her contractors have told me, $4M, while a record-breaker for Fort Greene, sounds about right. The plaster detail on the walls and ceilings were handcrafted, for crying out loud! I mean, talk about a labor of love... I just hope that the owner finds someone who will appreciate it as much as the owner does.
Posted by: parkblocker at July 14, 2006 6:30 PM
Based on what the owner has told me and what her contractors have told me, $4M, while a record-breaker for Fort Greene, sounds about right. The amount of work, time and money that went into getting this house to where it is... I mean, the plaster detail on the walls and ceilings were handcrafted, for crying out loud! I mean, talk about a labor of love... I just hope that the owner finds someone who will appreciate it as much as the owner does.
Posted by: parkblocker at July 14, 2006 6:31 PM
The biggest problem with this block IMO is that there are so many residents of the housing projects on Myrtle walking back and forth on it at all times. The house is located on the closest route for them to the subway on shopping. It is like a pedestrian highway.
While this may sound elitist, there is no way that I would raise children on that block. Just too many shady people walking by all the time.
Posted by: veggieburger at July 14, 2006 7:17 PM
parkblocker,
As much as I can sympathize with the amount of money it takes, r.e. is by and large, location, location, location, and only then... condition.
veggieburger,
LOL, are you for real? Not too many places in brownstone Bklyn where you don't have some shady characters walking by. Kids get raised in Bklyn Hts and Park Slope perfectly fine even though there are some "shady" people on the streets.
Posted by: Miguel at July 14, 2006 7:54 PM
parkblocker,
Can you tell me who they used for general contractor?
Posted by: Miguel at July 14, 2006 7:55 PM
Miguel,
Have you ever been to Washington Park? Really, there are MANY more shady people walking by on that block than on almost any other in Fort Greene (due to the housing projects one block away). This is going to be a HUGE turnoff for any potential buyer, especially one that intends to raise children in the house.
Posted by: veggieburger at July 14, 2006 8:01 PM
Oh My God! Shady people (who MUST be from the projects) walking down the street. Bring the wimmen folk in, and protect the children.! Veggieburger, please! There are shady people EVERYWHERE, in every neighborhood, every income level, race, creed and color. Give the kids some life lessons on good and bad people, teach them some street smarts, escort them until you trust them and they are old enough to be out alone, and then worry about them until they come home, but not raising them on Wash. Ave? Come on.
Ya know, there's that big park in Manhattan, with all those unsavory people in in, soliciting SEX, for crying out loud, where people have been mugged and even killed, and more than a few drug deals go down. I'm sure that proximity to that park and its share of shady characters has really brought the prices of real estate down on all sides of the park, and no self respecting parent would raise their kids anywhere near it. NOT.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at July 15, 2006 1:50 AM
And God forbid people from the projects should walk the hallowed upscale streets on their way to the subway and supermarket. Maybe the city should cut them a segregated path through the park, or maybe an underground tunnel, so you won't have to look at them, shady or not, or maybe just too much shade.
Veggieburger, I'm just wondering how you can think it's perfectly acceptable to post something like that. I certainly can't stop you from thinking it, but I would hope you could stop yourself from saying it out loud.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at July 15, 2006 2:19 AM
People never cease to amaze me. Shady -is that a new code word for Black people now? If you can't handle the diversity of people, or the fact that the streets are public thoroughfares, NYC is not the place for you. What else are streets for but pedestrians? (ok ok, and cars). Veggieburger, you're entitled to your own opinion - no matter how foolish, elitist, or biased - but you've stated it over and over before. I get the feeling your intent is not to discuss old houses but to incite flame wars. We are all trying hard to keep Brownstoner.com the great informative blog where we can discuss, argue or inform.Have a little respect. If not for fellow bloggers, then for Mr.B.
That house is truly magnificent but I think like CHP does. The fun of owning (or sometimes not so fun) a fixer upper is the fixing up. This is a house for people who want a showplace, in move in condition. It's so beautiful that I think even my strange mix of antique furniture would look good.Nothing wrong with that at all. Still, if I had the money I'd go for the Pfizer mansion too.
Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at July 15, 2006 9:37 AM
Ok, Now I understand veggieburger's point a little better, since I am not all that familiar with the FG geography. I am not so politically correct that I am blind to socio-economic reality. Sure, if the house is a block from a housing project, and if the park attracts people who might scare or annoy the kind of person who would typically have $3mm-$4mm to spend on a house, then, yes, that is going to be a value factor. But, from all I have seen and read about FG, the nabe has it's own unique vibe and whoever buys this house is going to have to buy into that vibe. This buyer isn't going to be "typical". This will need to be someone who could afford the Hts or PS, but specifically wants the funky FG vibe. For example, maybe someone in the entertainment industry would find the vibe to be more interesting than the usual lawyer/banker type.
The big question is how many of those atypical buyers are out there. It could take awhile to sell at anything remotely near asking. But, I think the sellers are counting on that buyer being out there somewhere. Regardless of what most potential buyers will think, they only need one, one person (with a big bank account) who sees your negatives as positives.
Posted by: Miguel at July 15, 2006 1:09 PM
The NYT is featuring this house in this Sunday's RE section. As far as the "cons" go, they cite the fact that the 7 fireplaces are not working (although 3 can be activated). Gee, there's no mention of "shady people from the projects" anywhere!
CHP and Bx2Bklyn,I can always count on the two of you to express my exact thoughts on these socio-political subjects. And now I'm moved to give special props to Miguel for his careful,diplomatically-worded post regarding the impact of class and culture on home purchase choices. This kind of response makes me hopeful that, on the "new" Brownstoner, we will be able to establish intelligent, non-sensational, honest and adult-level conversation as the norm for how we discuss the tougher and/or more sensitive political issues like neighborhood crime, affordable housing, gentrification, economic development, etc.
Posted by: Gardensgal at July 15, 2006 2:06 PM
Miguel, according to the times, #1 South Portland was on the market for a total of 2 weeks.
I guess there are people out there who will buy a 3 mil house in FG real fast.
I don't think that anyone with half a brain or eyes in their head would think twice about what a wonderful area and investment Fort Greene is. Whether a brownstone is worth 4 mil ANYWHERE (even in manhattan) is another question. Personally, I despise those narrow long buildings with windows only on the front and back. I'm always excited to see something with more than two walled exposures.
But as far as FG is concerned, the prices will only go up, esp for houses on the park, regardless of what the socioeconomist -vs - racist blog wars tell us.
Posted by: chris at July 16, 2006 11:42 AM
Chris,
If you'll reread my post carefully you'll see that my basic premise is that indeed there is likely to be a buyer for this extraordinary property, probably at $3mm or more.
Posted by: Miguel at July 16, 2006 5:31 PM
I also have been in this house. The renovation is total: every doorknob, every hinge, every window, every shutter, top of the line Italian bathroom fixtures, power lines buried in the yard, plumbing poles buried in the walls, the most sophisticated electric, and more. The cost, time, and patience required to do this kind of work is rarely seen. The likely buyer is someone who has sold a 2-3 BR in Manhattan for a similar price. They can move in and entertain the next day. Imagine not having to go through the pain of a restoration. Time is money and the buyer will get to live in a perfect house from day one! It is also a really big house: 5 floors, extra wide, high ceilings even on the top floor, glorious views of the park from every floor, with sun flooding every room from the front to the back. And, all the original detail is there...ALL OF IT. I just wish I had the money.
Posted by: Anon at July 16, 2006 10:00 PM
One thing I especially like about this house is that it is still a one family and each room is used as it originally was - the kitchen and DR are where they were originally, the double parlors are used as such, same with the bedrooms and baths, etc. These houses are so incredibly gracious and comfortable when used as they were originally intended. I hope the new buyer can afford to keep the house intact. There are so few of them around anymore that we will all forget how they were originally designed and used. How great to keep at least a few in their original design and use. I think the general contractor was the owner with some areas (kitchen, pantry, bar, maybe baths and/or DR) were designed by Peter Vitakis who does gorgeous and acclaimed work.
Posted by: Anon at July 16, 2006 11:30 PM
Miguel,
As far as who the buyers will likely be, many of the buyers in the area in the last 5 - 10 years are bankers and lawyers, as well as people in other more creative industries, like entertainment. That's my experience and impression anyway - so I agree that there will be plenty of interst from many buyers, it's just an issue of whether the price is right. This place looks fantastic.
Posted by: 1847 at July 18, 2006 10:47 AM
I just love those moldings... does anyone know of closer up pictures up online? I'd love to see the casing detail.. thanks
Posted by: Anonymous at October 31, 2006 4:05 PM
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