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June 12, 2006
House of the Day: Midwood Not Mid-Priced
This four-story limestone on Midwood Street in Lefferts Manor is the real deal but, man, $1.495 million is a lot of dough for this nabe, isn't it? It looks like the extensive woodwork in the house (including several fireplaces) is in excellent shape. As usual, we're not loving the kitchen reno, but that is what it is. The house, which is of a grander scale than many in the area, also boasts inlaid parquet floors, pocket doors and stained glass. Still, $1.495 million? What do the locals think?
Update: This is 68 Midwood Street--the identical twin of #55. Both were built by W.A.A. Brown and were originally priced at $11,000 when they hit the market a century or so ago. According to Bob Marvin, the reason for the dumbwaiter is that these houses were built with TWO dining rooms--an informal one in the ground floor front and a formal one, over the kitchen, in the parlor floor rear.
Midwood Limestone [Brown Harris Stevens] GMAP P*Shark
Comments
I don't care what nabe, this house is absolutely gorgeous! It's the best deal in Brooklyn right now at this price point. Nothing comes even close....
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 12:12 PM
Definitely an amazing house in every way!
Posted by: Park Sloper at June 12, 2006 12:21 PM
What a gorgeous home! Way out of my price range no matter where it is, but reminds me of why I fell in love with brownstone architecture and features in the first place. Truly droolworthy.
BTW, not loving the kitchen either, but if I had that kind of money, fixing it wouldn't be that big a deal, as rest of house looks, at least in photos, pretty darn good.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at June 12, 2006 12:24 PM
Gorgeous house. I've been in some of the ones on this row and they are great. But I totally disagree with 12:12--neighborhood makes a huge difference! At this point, prices in LM/PLG haven't gotten near this level. This house is certainly worth a great deal, but I wouldn't want to be breaking records in a developing area at this time in the market. I can see it selling for close to 1.4M.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 12:30 PM
Not true - a house last year sold for $1.457M. Three more on this block have sold for $1.3M.
Posted by: Ed at June 12, 2006 12:34 PM
Yes Ed I know about those sales. The 1.457M house was free-standing, huge, and an anomoly. The 1.3M houses are good comps--which is why I said this might sell for close to 1.4M.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 12:38 PM
The Price is Right. This is where houses (especially on Midwood) are now in the neighborhood. And people are buying them. They are some of the best brownstones in all of Brooklyn. Most kept single family with all their detail since the day they were built. Hard to find stock in this abundance anywhere else.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 12:44 PM
1.457M was not freestanding. It was partially attached and only 18 ft wide. This one's a 20 footer. also, the same broker sold an 18-footer on Midwood in March for $1.37M. It was smaller and only a few doors down from this one.
Posted by: Ed at June 12, 2006 12:49 PM
OK Ed, I must have confused the 1.457M with another house. Nontheless, that's the only house I know of to break the 1.4 mark. I really can't see this going for more than 1.4M. It doesn't seem worth 300K more than 38 Rutland, which is the same size and just sold for 1.2M. And March was a different market. This one has already been on the market for awhile, and had a 100K price reduction. But I won't argue the point-- we'll see what happens.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 12:56 PM
I've been inside this house and it knocked my socks off! Stunning woodwork, steam room, retractable tv screen in the kitchen, working dumbwaiter, japanese garden, great block.....
Posted by: dt at June 12, 2006 1:00 PM
Oh! Can some one spot me $1.5 M, I like this place. A working dumb-waiter, that's too cool, I just have a mystery hatch that is all boarded up in my place.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 1:12 PM
This house does look amazing in the photos. I think BHS does themselves a real disservice here in that it is apparently company policy not to show any photos of rooms with beds in them! A home like this deserves photos of bedrooms. Especially at this price!
I think this house, and the absolute beauty on the corner of Rutland and Bedford are just over the price point of what people are willing to pay for the nabe right now. I'm kind of shocked the owners haven't gone for reductions by now. They'd be long sold IMO.
Posted by: west at June 12, 2006 1:34 PM
Not sure why Rutland Road sold for only $1.2M. Some say Rutland is less desirable than Midwood. It's further from the train and Prospect Park (but not much).
Frankly, upscale Brown Harris Stevens always does better in PLG than cheesy Barbara Corcoran and her minions. I don't know why.
Posted by: Ed at June 12, 2006 1:38 PM
By the way, this house was already reduced in price by $100K. In general I think brokers didn't expect the supply glut that greeted the spring selling season. Also, I think owners of prime properties like these won't sell their gems just to have a sae go through. They know what they have, and as the neighborhood continues to improve, they'll get it.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 1:45 PM
Then they're tougher than I would be! How long would you leave your home on the market while the neighborhood improves?
Didn't realize they've already reduced 100K. I could totally see it going for 1.4
Posted by: west at June 12, 2006 1:47 PM
This is in my price range, and it looks amazing. But I'd never spend this much on PLG, sorry. Perhaps the neighborhood will improve someday, but I see no real signs of change now. This is a lot of to spend (for me, at least) and I want to be sure I'm investing it in an area that isn't going to drop if there is a real burst in the bubble. I can't afford the primest area, but I feel much safer buying a lesser house in a more established neighborhood.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 2:01 PM
Rutland and Flatbush is known to be a bad corner, with lots of loud loiterers and drug activity at the corner building. I think 38 Rutland suffered a bit from that--who wants to walk by that every day?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 2:06 PM
Please provide some examples of "lesser" houses in "more established" areas.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 2:18 PM
2:18--There are quite a few lesser houses in more establish areas in the same range, especially since I can afford to spend more than this if the house has a rental unit. There is a lovely house on Washington in CH, and another nice one we saw in FG. We saw two nice houses in Boerum Hill, and a few in the Slope (with rentals). There are loads of places on the market now, and my realtor tells me the prices are almost all "negotiable." Nothing is as nice as this PLG house, but the areas are all much more established and offer a lot more amenities.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 2:29 PM
What do you mean by "established"? The Lefferts Manor Association has been around for decades! There are also a high percentage of home owners that have been in the neighborhood for over 30 years.....
PLG is established.
Posted by: Tom at June 12, 2006 2:48 PM
Tom, don't you get it? "Established", "Developing", etc. are all code words!
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 2:56 PM
Don't take the bait.
Tom and the PLG cabal just want a propoganda opportunity. Keep up the thorough, thoughtful search you seem to be doing. There are always trade-offs.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 2:56 PM
I meant "established" from both an investement perspective and from an amenities perspective. I know PLG has a long-standing active community association. But it is decades behind other areas in terms of stores, restaurants, banks, and so on. And as an investment it is very much a long-shot. Areas like PS, FG, Boerum Hill have been "desireable" for awhile now and I'm pretty sure they'll weather the market's ups and downs without trouble. PLG is another story.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 2:59 PM
Contrary to what Anon 2:06 and other haters say, Rutland and Flatbush is much quieter than other corners in LM.
I live on the block and walk by there every day and night, so I know. . .
Midwood has two bigger apartment buildings on each corner and a dumpy Chinese place where people hang out.
Maple has the liquor store and a deli where there is always a crowd outside.
Posted by: tripster at June 12, 2006 3:01 PM
I agree - Boerum Hill and Park Slope, and to some extent, Fort Greene are more solidly gentrified than PLG. And they are also much more expensive. But PLG is not a "long-shot" investment in our rapidly developing borough.
Posted by: Ed at June 12, 2006 3:09 PM
Hey trispster, who is a "hater"? Dissing your neighbors to defend your own corner isn't exactly loving.
I live on Rutland II and I usually walk over to Maple to avoid the corner of Rutland and Flatbush. If it has quited down recently, I haven't noticed.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 3:11 PM
p.s. - there has bee a huge influx of people for Park Slope to PLG. The neighorhood borders Prospect Park, which will become quite an asset once a complex the size of Penn Plaza and Madison Square Garden plops down next Park Slope, Boerum Hill and Fort Greene.
Posted by: Ed at June 12, 2006 3:20 PM
Oh boy, here we go again....
Posted by: west at June 12, 2006 3:27 PM
Ed, yes those areas are more expensive. But as I said before you can get a lesser house for the same general price or a house with rental units for a bit more in those areas. As for safety of investments, I can only go with my gut. And comments like those by "tipster" and friends about Flatbush don't make feel like PLG is a great bet for gentrification.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 3:31 PM
I agree that there is more downside potential to PLG in a downturn. However, in the long term, there is also more upside potential since it is only a matter of time until PLG has as many amenities as Boerum Hill/Fort Greene/Carroll Gardens, etc.
This is an amazing house. When PLG really takes off, it could be worth a fortune.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 3:33 PM
p.p.s. Ed is the biggest shill for Brooklyn real estate there is. There is no bubble, there is no falling prices, there is weakness in the market, just buy, buy, buy.... at whatever inflated prices Ed tells you to.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 3:33 PM
Earth to Anonymous 3:33,
Prices in Brooklyn are not falling. The rate of increase has only slowed. Brooklyn continues to gentrify. It is not stupid to buy in Brooklyn right now.
Additionally, most people on this board seem to agree that this house is probably worth in the $1.4-$1.5 million range. A little overpriced? Perhaps. But totally inflated? I don't think so.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 3:38 PM
I am SO not a shill. You're really giving me far too much credit, Brownstoner!
Meanwhile, the lady who finds PLG too risky should move elsewhere, and we should all wish her luck! Not everyone is comfortable around black people.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 3:43 PM
"it is only a matter of time until PLG has as many amenities as Boerum Hill/Fort Greene/Carroll Gardens, etc." That's what everyne said 5 years ago! Sure, but it will probably be another 10 years, and who wants to live there until then?
Most comments on this board seem to think the house is worth up to 1.4M, not above it.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 3:46 PM
I have friends who live in PLG and are loving it. However, I always run into them at the supermarkets and wine shops in the slope and Boerum Hill.
Posted by: crouchback at June 12, 2006 4:16 PM
I consider myself a happy resident of PLG. Life here has many plusses, but there are certainly minuses. In many ways it is a suburban lifestyle--we get in the car every weekend and drive to other areas to do our shopping or go out to restaurants. (At least now we can walk to a coffee house!) Some of us are OK with that, some aren't.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 4:24 PM
when people "invest" It is always wise to buy low.
If you go to the "established" neighborhoods to "invest" you are buying at the high. Me I bought my brownstone to have a house, not a portfolio
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 4:50 PM
why would you buy a house in a neighborhood with less ameneties? you aren't contributing to the neighborhood, you probably would send your kids to private schools OUTSIDE the neighborhood. You go to park slope and BH to shop, but not in the neighborhood. So if you don't put into the neighborhood and are spending most of your time in other "desirable" nabes, then why wouldnt you move there? Oh wait... you were priced out!
This market is in trouble, and no one wants to admit it. You gentrifiers in CH, BS, PLG CH and PH are really going to be in for it when your equity is shot and your brownstone is worth half what you paid for it.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 4:59 PM
IMO these two rows of mirror image 4-story houses are the nicest in LM. The builder (W.A.A. Brown) also built the three story houses like mine on Midwood II, but the four story houses are MUCH grander. FWIW they were priced at $11,000 when built while houses like mine were $7,500. BTW, this house was built in 1898 (according to the LPC Designation Report) NOT 1901.
The reason for the dumbwaiter is that these houses were built with TWO dining rooms--an informal one in the ground floor front and a formal one, over the kitchen, in the parlor floor rear--the dumbwaiter was for the servants to send food up. I don't think anyone used this arrangement today, but the dining room in this house appears to be on the parlor floor (but I'd guess they might not use he downstairs front room as a dining room anyore).
As to whether the house is WORTH $1.495 mil, I just don't know--If the three story on this block that sold for $1.4 mil last year was worth that, this house is clearly worth MUCH more. Like anything else, the market will determine the actual price--a price close to asking wouldn't surprise me, but I'm over my head here--I still remember how long it took houses in my nabe to reach $100K :-)
Posted by: Bob Marvin at June 12, 2006 5:02 PM
"This market is in trouble, and no one wants to admit it. You gentrifiers in CH, BS, PLG CH and PH are really going to be in for it when your equity is shot and your brownstone is worth half what you paid for it. "
That sentiment was felt in Boreum Hill, Fort Greene, Clinton Hill, Prospect Heights etc in the late 80s and early 90s. And in the 60's and 70s the same could have been said for Park Slope. Things change. My grandmother bought a place in Crown Heights in 1920s, she sold in the 1970s for the same price she bought it in the 20's. The money went to the suburbs. Now the money is moving back.
Wake up, people are moving to Brooklyn and the city and out of the sleepy suburbs.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 5:10 PM
Yes, it took a long time to get a good coffee shop in the PLG. Finally one opened recently. Now a restaurant is negotiating for space in the nabe just a few months after the coffee house opened (see planetplg.com). This tells me that movement is happening NOW. It always takes the longest time for the first establishment to take a risk. After that, especially when a nabe shows a need by supporting that first place, things pick up speed fast.
Posted by: dt at June 12, 2006 5:20 PM
Things are different now. Dollar is in decline, Oil is above $70 a barrel, Exotic ARM Loans, Stock market down atleast 100 points every day since last week, Glut of Condos coming to the market, all things that haven't been seen before, when the cheap money dries up and loan practices tighten, then what?
Its 1.45 million because the house down the street sold for 1.3? Thats not logical economics, that's because I said so economics. Theres nothing to justify these inflated prices, especially when these types of houses are often purchased a year or two earliar for atleast half.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 5:20 PM
Anon 5:10, Yes, the city is certainly on the rise, but the boom is pretty much regional. I was looking at MLS results and prices in many Westchester burbs increased by 15-25% last year. Not as much as some Brooklyn areas, but not too shabby.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 5:24 PM
I would agree with most of the pricing comments- mainly about the caution- but...I just paid top dollar for a house because it was not your average house and after looking at almost 60 properties, I could not find another like it. In as much as it was under asking, it was still high priced on a square foot basis. But I do not feel that I overpaid because it is unique. Same could be said for this house. I have not been inside, but I am blown away by the photos. You can't look just at pricing when you are talking about such a special property.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 5:29 PM
I think you're all missing out. Bushwick, baby! According to the NYTimes (again) it's the up and coming hood, ya'll. Come north, where the uhhm, hype-manufactured-by-corcoran-payoff-to-the-nytimes action is.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 5:49 PM
The above point is right on the nose. Statistics about brownstones are pretty meaningless in Brooklyn because so much depends on the characteristics of the individual property.
Condos, however, are another story...
Posted by: west at June 12, 2006 5:51 PM
Yes, things DO pick up speed fast. I remember Boerum Hill back in the day. Within a few years, it completely transformed itself - and this was before interest rates dipped so low.
Posted by: Ed at June 12, 2006 5:53 PM
I must agree with the few posters who mentioned that neighborhood matters. I lived in PLG years ago, and unfortunately, the problem areas are still a problem. I can't justify spending that kind of money if I have to face a filty shopping district and encounter harrassment as happened then and now.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 5:56 PM
P. S. - After reading through even more posts, I'd like to add the following to my 5:56 posting. I happen to be a Puerto Rican woman who dated a black man for years. So, please, no comments re: fear of living with any ethnic group. And just because I am a "minority", doesn't mean I have to "settle" for the filthy corner and the harassment.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 6:10 PM
That's funny, because I moved to PLG 5 years ago, and I have noticed an enormous amount of change over that period of time - especially in the last two years. There isn't as much riff-raff, and a business development group is working on improving the businesses on Flatbush Ave. The houses are as beautiful as ever, and the dilapidated ones are getting fixed up one by one. There is no way you could get one of these places in PS or BH or in any "preferred" neighborhood at the prices they go for here. Yes, PLG isn't the Slope, but we border the same park, and if your home is your castle, you'll be a king here. No one I know wants to leave.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 6:18 PM
Wow! What an amazing house. What the heck is up with that island in the kitchen though? Why in the world would you want to have a slanted island?
Posted by: Dan at June 12, 2006 6:32 PM
anyone who doubts PLG's immense draw should just come around on a sunny weekend day. did anyone catch the vibe around lincoln road or in our neck of the park this weekend? true diversity, not blondes and haitian domestics like some other nabes. i just moved here in the past month and i am excited. yes i want a burrito spot and a place to get tanked and watch sports on occasion but there is definitely something special developing round these parts.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 6:39 PM
I don't think the island is slanted. Realtors usually use wide-angle lenses to increase the amount of the room that fits in the picture (and to create the illusion of more space!). The resulting distortion makes the counter look slanted!
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 7:41 PM
Hey, honey, did you see those mushrooms I was chopping on the island? I could have sworn they were right here...
Posted by: west at June 12, 2006 8:42 PM
"scuse me- I'm still wiping my eyes which watered up at the sight of that beautiful house. I so wish we didn't get into these neighborhood slammings. I see no reason why the lady who is looking for a house should be slammed over her reasons not to buy in PLG. She's not saying anything other than the neighborhood doesn't have enough of what she wants at this point in time. Maybe someday it will- but it is certainly not condemning PLG or anyone who loves it. To each his own. ANd by the same token, there is no earthly reason to insult people who love PLG, or deny their good experience.
IMHO- every brownstone neighborhood in Brooklyn is going to be up and coming simply because the houses are wonderful (hopefully), and you can't beat a brownstone neighborhood for city living. It's the total opposite of the big box/people warehouse that most of Manhattan is.
Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at June 12, 2006 8:42 PM
Oh please, I'm a white woman and I walk on Flatbush often. I've never been harassed. Flatbush in PLG is no more filthy than Flatbush in Park Slope. Now that Phat Albert's has cleaned up their act and put new windows in, things are looking up there, too.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 8:43 PM
I couldn't care less about bashing any neighborhood but I think you would have to admit that Flatbush Ave. in Park Slope is much nicer than PLG.
Posted by: west at June 12, 2006 8:56 PM
8:56, Can't say that I agree with you.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 9:17 PM
You people are all so misguided. We live in the inner city. Get over it. A mile here, a mile there...it's all the same. Some people/some communities try to shelter themselves in to thinking they have created a nabe where the, "others," don't live. But let me tell you that despite the cappucino machines over in some nabes, there is still great diversity of backgrounds (racial, cultural, ethnic, religious, financial.) If you don't like it then it's time to head for the 'burbs -- not pretend that Park Slope or Boerum Hill or Fort Greene is so darn special. Section 8 housing, projects, half-way houses are in all the above-mentioned neighborhoods. And so what!
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 9:22 PM
I beg to differ with Anon 4:59. Brownstones are a finite commodity. They aren't building them anymore. Brownstone neighborhoods are desirable in part because they are all in prime locations, the state of the neighborhood notwithstanding. Sooner or later, like it or not, all of brownstone Bklyn will see some sort of gentrification and change upward in income levels and desirable status. I don't think that will change, no matter what the national economy.
Unless someone buys a structurally unsound, POS on the worst block imaginable, under the el, on sinking contaminated landfill, previously lived in by an incestuous murdering family, who buried the bodies in the basement, while junkies stole the copper pipes, your investment can only go up in value. Even that place could sell to someone.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at June 12, 2006 9:26 PM
A house like this in Park Slope would likely fetch $3M, no? That's a sizeable price difference for one train stop, and quick access to the same damn park, isn't it? What gives?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 9:29 PM
9:17-- Franny's, American Apparel, 2 great coffee bars, a great Japanese restaurant, amazing new burrito place on Flatbush, Chocolate Monkey...I could go on.
Flatbush in PLG? Hmm, there's...well...um ...any ideas?
Posted by: west at June 12, 2006 9:34 PM
I was raised in PLG (my parents moved there in '77 and still live there). Honestly speaking, the walk I took from the Lincoln Rd station to Mom's house on Rutland II this past Sunday doesn't feel any different than it did back in '86 when I was in junior high school. Flatbush Ave is Flatbush Ave and yeah, it could surely use an upgrade or two but c'mon, this is Brooklyn and it ain't always "pretty." PLG is not PS (and may never be) but that's cool with me 'cause it's home.
End violins.
BK to fullest!
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 9:35 PM
That's an interesting assessment because so many long-timers speak differently. I suppose some things have changed and others haven't.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 9:50 PM
I don't want to be accused of "bashing" my own neighborhood, but honestly I haven't seen much change at all since I moved here in '97. Other than our wonderful coffee house, the area feels the same. Flatbush is the same, the noisy corners are the same, the drug dealers are the same. I don't know what my neighbors who say there have been changes are talking about! That said, it is a great area with amazing houses, nice people (though you wouldn't know it from reading these posts), and in a great spot.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 12, 2006 11:29 PM
I'm curious where you live. Down by Lincoln Road, it's totally changed in the last year alone. The groups of kids on the corner are gone (thanks to the NYPD). The demographics have really changed too. Just watch people as they exit Prospect Park Station at Lincoln Road.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 13, 2006 7:46 AM
Just a comment on seediness on Flatbush in PS -- the area around the exit from the Q train (by the former theatre now American Apparel) is far seedier than anything I've ever experienced in PLG -- there are always people hanging out, begging for change, and making comments to the women going by. Then you have your other neighborhood regulars on Seventh Ave -- in front of the deli on Garfield, opening the door for you at Citibank, etc. So PS is not a paradise by any means. And in terms of PLG being under-banked, I think the situation here is better than in Fort Greene -- we have a Carver and a Chase on Empire Blvd. and Nostrand. Where are the banks in Fort Greene? When I lived there there simply weren't any, apart from the Williamsburgh Savings Bank.
Posted by: babs at June 13, 2006 8:46 AM
Babs, Those people hanging out on 7th Avenue are neighborhood fixtures that we all know by name. They hang out there because they know people in PS are generous and will always give them a little money. There's nothing seedy about them at all. I'm not saying the neighborhood is crime-free but you can't even begin to tell me that a walk down 7th Ave. is anything like walking down Flatbush in PPG.
Posted by: anon at June 13, 2006 9:19 AM
Hey--we have our "neighborhood fixtures" on Flatbush Ave. too :-)
I admit its a bit much to compare Flatbush Ave in PLG with 7th Ave In PS--NOT a comparison I'd have made. However Flatbush Ave. in both neighborhoods is not quite as different as you might think at first glance. Most of Flatbush Ave., for its entire lenght. is not the most attractive commercial street in Brooklyn.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at June 13, 2006 10:19 AM
7:46am--I'm on Rutland. I really haven't felt or seen a big change in the number of people hanging out on the corners of Flatbush. Perhaps there's been a subtle shift I haven't noticed, but I still find my regular walk along Flatbush to be generally unpleasant.
There has certaily be a shift in demographics on the side streets, but I haven't noticed one on Flatbush or in the huge apartment buildings.
This isn't to say PLG isn't great. I just am weay of advertising it has having had major changes recently or of being about to experience major changes. People have been saying that since we moved here. I think people should buy here if they like the area as it is now, not because they think it is changing or going to change. Because it really may not.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 13, 2006 11:12 AM
In my 11:12 post, I meant to write that I was "wary of advertising it as having had major changes...". Still sleepy. Sorry :)!
Posted by: Anonymous at June 13, 2006 11:34 AM
Has it occurred to anyone that Flatbush Ave is simply the boundary btwn Park Slope and Prospect Hts and does not even run thru PS. So, why are you debating the condition of Flatbush Ave as it relates to PS, when it is fairly meaningless to the nabe?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 13, 2006 2:06 PM
I have to say, it's fascinating how threads about PLG get so many more posts than other topics on this blog. Mr. Brownstoner - did you put this Midwood Street House thread to increase blog traffic?
Frankly, I think many of the "major changes" in the neighborhood have to do with less perceptible things: demographic shifts, community involvement, blogs, business development plans, and infrastructure improvements, etc. There's a cafe and a restaurant in the works, but Flatbush Avenue largely caters to the poor and working class caribbean immigrant community. If you don't like immigrants from the Caribbean, then this is certainly not the neighborhood for you. It's like moving to Washington Heights if you don't like immigrants from the Dominican Republic - just plain silly!
Gentrification is inevitable in this neighborhood. It has simply too many physical virtues (housing stock, Prospect Park, etc.) to remain the province of the poor/working class. Even the owners of the apartment buildings are agressively fixing them up and recruiting college grads and professionals from the other side of the park. As rents are on the way up, this will only increase such migration.
The business development group in the neighborhood is looking to diversify services while retaining the local caribbean flavor. That would create quite a unique - and un-Park Slope - environment, and many of the younger, more open-minded residents LOVE this idea.
People who speak of lack of change in
PLG are probably looking only at the most superficial ones. It is my guess that these people may be (a) older, (b) more conservative, and (c) not active in the community much. That's not meant as an insult - it's just that my parents probably wouldn't have noticed changes in this neighborhood over the last decade either because they see through different lenses. If you want to know what's really going on in PLG, speak to the younger, more active ones, who are more open-minded about things like race.
Posted by: Ed at June 13, 2006 2:07 PM
Ed,
I can appreciate some of what you're saying, but this whole notion of "open-mindedness" smacks of the same type of liberal smugness Slopers get routinely accussed of. I'm black and you couldn't pay me to buy a house in PLG. And yes, I've been there, seen it, have friends there, very impressed with the housing, etc. I've lived in similar nabes before, among a somewhat Carribean population, and my family even has ties to the Jamaica.
But when it came time to put my hard-earned money into a piece of the rock, I chose PS, a less "diverse" nabe, as you would describe it, but one where I feel much more comfortable for any variety of reasons far too long to detail here.
It's all a matter of priorities, what makes you feel more comfortable, and what kinds of risks you're willing to take. It's also a matter of what you can afford, and I am very fortunate to be able to afford a house in PS, so I don't have to make those tough compromises. I certainly think PLG is an interesting neighborhood, with many things to offer, it's simply not for me at this stage of my life. Does that make me less open-minded, your code for morally inferior? Really, who cares!
What it makes me is somebody who wants lots of upscale amenties, shopping, good schools, low crime, solid investment value, in a "relatively diverse" environment. Same things a lot of people want.
No matter how you cut it, for most, PLG is a 2nd or even 3rd choice, not a 1st choice for most buyers. They were either priced out of or cashed out of someplace else. Your rainbow theme is not the draw for most.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 13, 2006 2:31 PM
Ed, I’m the 11:12 poster. When we moved here I was on the LM board, but after a few years I got tired of all the plans and petitions to the police and talking to merchants since none of got us anywhere. There would be slight improvements, and then things would slide back to where they had been. So you're right--I'm no longer active. Perhaps there are things afoot that I haven't seen. I certainly hope so.
The main part of your argument that I don't buy is the "inevitability" of change. Many of the apartment buildings are too big and too decrepit to revitalize without evicting all of the subsidized residents and gutting the places. The stores on Flatbush do a good business catering to the low income population, so there isn't enough reason for them to change to try to cater to the much smaller middle/upper middle class residents. Again, perhaps I'm just missing something.
As I said before, I think people should move to PLG if they like the way it is now. I came with the idea that it would change. I became very frustrated at the lack of change, but then I learned to like it for what it is--and to put up with what it isn't.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 13, 2006 2:45 PM
Fascinating hatred and negativity, ladies!
Posted by: Ed at June 13, 2006 3:03 PM
Ed,
How typcial. When forced to actually defend what you've said, you fall back to your moral superiority line. Yes, we're all horrible, bigoted, haters because we don't want to live in PLG.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 13, 2006 3:11 PM
Exactly my point -- those people are "fixtures" to PS residents and so not scary or seedy. To someone from elsewhere they might seem otherwise. Just like people on Flatbush Ave here in PLG. What's unfamiliar is always scary, no matter where you are or where you're from.
Posted by: babs at June 13, 2006 3:15 PM
I don't know I bother to try and share my perspective on this site. Such a waste of time and energy.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 13, 2006 3:51 PM
I'm really not sure why some people are so intent on putting PLG "in its place" and then proceed to insult everyone who likes living there. If you prefer PS, then live in PS. Period. If you don't believe PLG has changed, so be it - perhaps we aren't interested in the same changes. I've offered some analysis as to what's going on, and it's interesting how it throw's people into a "shame PLG" tizzy! All I'll conclude is that all these responses, and anger and defensiveness on many sides are proof that we're striking a very interesting nerve in this dialogue.
Posted by: Ed at June 13, 2006 3:52 PM
Anon 2:31: Couldn't pay you to buy a house in PLG? I can see why the area has its detractors but ouch, that's pretty hardcore.
I'm the 9:35PM poster who was raised in PLG (renting in CH now). I too, find it interesting how threads about my nabe manage to strike a chord with so many folks who frequent this site. Interesting POV from both sides.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 13, 2006 4:29 PM
Ed,
The only nerve you are striking is with your holier than thou attitude. People aren't allowed to disagree with you, without you getting all defensive and lashing out. People have some reservations about PLG. Maybe it's changed, but not enough for many, otherwise prices would be even higher.
No problem with the fact that you are a proud resident of PLG. I have a problem with your rosy picture of PLG which ignores some very real concerns people have about the nabe, plus how about you try to stop with the PLG vs. PS superiority thing. It's not an arguement you can win, not even a fair fight.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 13, 2006 4:37 PM
anon at 4:29pm,
Sorry, I did not mean to offend. Poor choice of words on my part. It's just that I've lived in areas with similar characteristics, and I'm in no mood to settle relative to what I want in terms of location, amenities, schools, and yes, demographics matter(yes, I am well aware that makes me such a terrible person). Maybe it's age, maybe I've lived in NYC too long. Call it what you will.
I was speaking for myself, not suggesting that others should follow. To each his or her own. There are obviously things that make PLG a good choice for some.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 13, 2006 4:44 PM
Enough with the personal attacks on me - why don't you e-mail me using the link above so we can discuss your beef with me, OK?
Posted by: Ed at June 13, 2006 4:54 PM
PS diversity:
haitian domestics, affable panhandlers and latino restaurant staffers.
PLG diversity:
black neighbors.
Posted by: franz fanonymous at June 13, 2006 10:04 PM
what is ed's crime here exactly?
he posits that PLG is in transition. if you find yourself resisting this rather obvious notion then you likely spend more time on brownstoner, in gorilla coffee or eating price gouged pizza at franny's than actually getting to know plg.
he says gentrification is inevitable. well, it's become quite clear that white people have developed a voracious appetite for areas that adjoin some sort of commercial strip, are in walking distance to prospect park, feature brownstones and tree lined streets, are near several subway stops, and are 30 mins or less from the city. you don't have to be the love child of barbara corcoran and nostradamus to figure this one out.
he argues that those allergic to a heavy minority presence, to jay -z's voice being emitted from cars with large rims, or to bodegas that don't sell newman's own, may find themselves sneezing violently in plg. those who don't necessarily find these features that troubling may actually find the place tolerable. how is this at all controversial? like he said, younger folk are more likely to absorb this type of thing than manhattan transfers looking for something a bit more tranquil. nothing wrong with either position in my view.
but seriously, franny's epitomizes all that is so intricately annoying about park slope's alarming sprint towards smarm soaked yuppification.
in other words, ed stays on point like icicles.
Posted by: franz fanonymous at June 13, 2006 10:37 PM
franz,
Here we go again,
1) Ed's crime (at least in my opinion) is the way he attacks anyone who disagrees with him.
2) And though he readily admits that PLG is not for everyone, Ed seems to think that anyone who would find PLG unappealing is intolerant, possibly even racist.
3) Ed frequently commits the very same sin that you did, which is the parting shot at Park Slope. Why is it that you PLG-ers find this so necessary. It completely destroys, what are sometimes compelling posts. But, for me, when I see that the author is coming from some kind of defensive smug superiority thing, it's hard for me to accord any credibility to what you are saying.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 9:08 AM
PLG and Victorian Flatbush have a lot of similarities in terms of amenities or lack there of, demographics, proximity to park, great housing stock, house prices, etc... Why is it just PLG that ignites this kind of heated discussion? Both PLG and Vic. Flatbush attract Park Slope defectors...
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 9:26 AM
Why is it just PLG that ignites this kind of heated discussion?
Because PLGers always tend to compare it to PS in a backhanded putdown, perhaps because of the similarity of housing stock (i.e. bstones vs. freestanding homes), and also perhaps because they share proximity to Prospect Park, plus, I think maybe the PLGers see themselves as resembling what PS once was, a more bohemian, liberal, "diverse", kinder, gentler form of genetrification.
Victorian Flatbushers don't tend to put down other nabes as justification for their own choices. Again, perhaps there is enough difference to avoid the comparison.
For as long as I can remember in the 20 yrs I've been in Bklyn, PLGers have been a tad defensive, not exactly wanting to let the secret out about the excellent value to be had, but also somewhat envious of PS's longrunning r.e. boom. Not much has changed except that now PLG has a r.e. boom of its own to brag about.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 11:41 AM
"Haitian domestics" are not the only black people in Park Slope! There are a lot of black families either owning or renting townhouses all over this neighborhood. PS gets unfairly bashed as a predominantly white, liberal, affluent neighborhood (not that there's anything wrong with that...). It's actually more diverse than you all seem to realize.
Posted by: Park Sloper at June 14, 2006 11:52 AM
If memory serves, the white/black demographics of PS and PLG are exact mirror images according to the last census. PLG is 80% black, 10% white, PS is the exact opposite.
Posted by: anon at June 14, 2006 1:48 PM
To which I would add, so freakin what?
How is it that whites living in predominately black neighborhoods should be accorded some morally superior status, when in fact, the real motivation for moving to said nabe is typically that they were simply priced out of the yuppier nabes, and are buying into a situation they hope will evolve more to their liking. Let's face it, gentrifiers usually result in the displacement of the very "diversity" they like to brag about. Perhaps the displacement can't be helped, but please don't brag about it under the guise of being more open-minded [gag].
At least buying a bstone in PS only results in the displacement of a some poor lawyer moving to Westchester.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 2:09 PM
Wow - now I've become a subject for debate! Hey Brownstoner, can you make me the topic of a thread?
Posted by: Ed at June 14, 2006 2:10 PM
we own a lovely townhouse in Lefferts Manor though we could afford to live somewhere else--but PLG is the place we wanted to be--it struck the right chord for us--. in time--like other popular, more expensive nabes that are the threads of this blog, PLG will become (if it hasn't already) "a destination for many folks"
--. afterall, it is a great place despite its issues...which most are being addressed as we speak.
The people who live here--especially in the THs--have always been proud of their community and have contributed in their own way. now with more diversity and changing demographics, the "young and old", "black and white" have formed a coalition(s) to evoke more positive change and make PLG an even better place to live...work...and play.
the RE in LM has always been special but due to recent 'positive' press, many more people are now aware of "our little hidden jewel." the boom in lefferts isn't by accident...it has been long in the making. PS is a great community...but different and it is where a lot of young folks want to live. but what people should understand is that it was once a struggling community just like ours; the nabe achieved its first $million sale approximately 10 years ago, and took another year or two to reach a similar sale... i think our nabe too is setting a precedent that will hardly go unrecognized...not only because of high quality RE (that's literally taken 'our world' by storm) but more due to the strength, purpose, power, intent and compassion within each of us that will help us beat the odds.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 2:46 PM
Have I missed something on the real estate front? You all keep talking about these tremendous price increases, and I'm really not aware of that. We bought our renovated 2 story brownstone in 2001 for $525,000. A nearly identical one just sold for $950,000. That's a nice increase, but less than double and far less than the 300% increases in the last 5 years in most of brownstone brooklyn. The other houses we looked at in the 500's in 2001 are now all worth 1.5M to 2M. Am I missing something, or are you all just a lot less greedy than I am?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 4:23 PM
anon at 2:46pm,
I can appreciate everything you've said. I am one of Ed's detractors, but I find absolutely nothing offensive in what you've stated.
No doubt there are some folks who prefer PLG for various reasons, as well as many folks who may have been priced out of other areas, but are vested in making it their home. Likewise I could afford to live anywhere, and have chosen my Bklyn nabe for reasons that might differ from your priorities. Like you, I've chosen a lifestyle and I'm extremely fortunate that I don't have to make too many compromises. All neighborhoods have their pluses and minuses. My sense is that PLG-ers want their area to evolve somewhat along the lines of PS, but without losing too much of its character and "diversity". Maybe some of you think that you'll be able to control the gentrification. Good luck (LOL). If bstones in PLG were to start routinely selling for over $2mm, I seriously doubt you'd be able to "control" the gentrification process, or maintain the diversity. Part of the reason the diversity exists is because PLG has been a much more more affordable community. These are economic realities you have no control over.
At any rate, thanks for a somewhat civil perspective on what's happening in PLG. Now if only you could give Ed some diplomacy lessons.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 5:06 PM
...No, we understand better than you may realize. But I think we all have to be realistic about real estate prices, no matter what neighborhood we live in.
Have you considered the fact that houses having the same size, layout and design can still be very different depending on condition and renovated state? A nice renovation is no doubt the key to fetching the higher prices, regardless to size.
That being said, my guess is these larger homes are becoming increasingly attractive for families with children so perhaps folks are willing to spend a bit more to have adequate space in addition to a grander home.
Posted by: Annabelle at June 14, 2006 6:15 PM
Anonymous 5:06 p.m.
thanks a lot. i can appreciate your comments too. your points are well taken.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 6:30 PM
anon at 4:23pm,
Where are you getting the idea that prices in most bstone areas have increased 300% over 5 yrs. That is certainly not the case in more established areas (i.e. Bklyn Hts, Park Slope), though perhaps seen in areas that have only recently become recognized by deep-pocketed Manhattan refuges.
I bought in PS in 2002 for $1.5mm, home now worth around $2.5mm, that's "only" a 67% increase. But, hey, I'm not exactly unhappy about a $1mm increase in equity. Maybe if I'd bought in BS or CH at the same time, the gain would be much larger on a percentage basis.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 7:01 PM
Gee, I'm glad I don't come here to make friends. If you would stop your strokefest at my expense for a moment and allow me to wipe off the manure that the purported civilized folk have been slinging at me on this thread, then perhaps I'd have a chance to encourage you to reread what I actually wrote on this thread. Maybe I made some provocative analyses, but I hardly wrote anything outrageous, and I don't recall writing anything mean-spirited or making any personal attacks like some of you are doing.
Posted by: Ed at June 14, 2006 7:11 PM
6:15--the house I'm comparing mine to really was identical--same level of renovation, same size, same layout, same details. Sold in May.
Yes, I agree that the 4 story homes have increased more than 2 story ones or the tudors, but the mansion on Rutland and Beford just reduced its price by $100,000, so even the hugest houses aren't booming.
7:01, I guess it's not true for all houses, but I know a house we bid on for $550,000 in the south slope in 2001 is now on the market for 1.9M. And friends bought a house in the Heights for 1.8M in 2002 and are selling it for 6M. But, yes I should be happy with my $450,000 profit. Nonetheless, I feel left out of the great RE Boom.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 8:37 PM
I'm shocked at learning that the "drop-dead" gorgeous townhouse on Rutland is now being offered at $100,000 less the original asking. I saw this house on Tour day and was absolutely "speechless"! It is so beautiful - I could just see myself living there in grandeur for many years. If I could afford it I would buy it on the spot - and in my opinion its well worth the $$$$$ - perhaps more! It'll sell now and who knows maybe still get the original price if it goes into a bidding war. This market is terribly unpredictable.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 9:55 PM
This house was already reduced from $1.6M to $1.5M, and a second mansion was also reduced to $1.5M. I don't believe they have been reduced further.
Posted by: Ed at June 14, 2006 10:20 PM
Ed,
Which house was already reduced? I am of the understanding that the corner mansion at Rutland and Bedford was just reduced a $100,000 - from $1.6mm. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 10:49 PM
Curious what people think the 2 on Midwood priced low (1.175 and 1.25) will go at. How long will they sit? Both need reno.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 14, 2006 10:53 PM
Check out Thursday's NYPost. There is an article about PLG which provides a nice counterpoint to the obnoxious premise that this thread is based on!
(That premise is that one of PLG's finest and largest homes - which had recently been discounted - is still insultingly over-priced with respect to New York City's current real estate market. No wonder PLG-ers got defensive).
Posted by: Ed at June 15, 2006 2:57 AM
Ed,
If you actually believe what you read in newspapers then you are truly hopeless.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2006 7:44 AM
10:49-
The two Midwood Street houses are in a different caliber from the "mansions". Someone will realize what a bargain these are--needing updating and all--and snatch them up before it's too late. They'll get their price too-- or close to it. People are particularly fond of that block.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2006 8:38 AM
Here's the URL for the NY Post article Ed mentioned:
http://www.nypost.com/realestate/hot_prospect_realestate_janet_huege.htm
OR
http://tinyurl.com/ox3eo
Posted by: Bob Marvin at June 15, 2006 10:09 AM
The two lower-priced Midwood houses are obviously overpriced, or else they wouldn't have been sitting on the amrket for eons. I'm sure they'll go for about 100K below asking.
Whether a house is overpriced or underpiced or well priced given the current market is not a reflection on the quality of an area and is not a reason for residents to feel insulted or defensive. These discussions are about what wiill sell for what dollar amount. PLGers--and others--shouldn't take it as a referendum on their community.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2006 10:10 AM
Just read the Post article. How funny! Bette Cunningham decided that prices in the manor are 1M to 1.6M, but actually things are selling from 925K to 1.475M! As she well knows.
Why does she think that inflating prices by over a 100K will draw people???? That was really stupid.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2006 10:19 AM
That is really strange. Price ranges quated by realtors in articles are always UNDER the real ranges. Realtors do that to draw people in. after they come to see houses they confront realit. It is pretty basic. Don't know why she inflated prices!
Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2006 10:29 AM
Bette Cunningham knows the area in-and-out and generally prices accordingly. If she says things in Lefferts Manor are selling in the $1mm - $1.6mm range -then it's true. Afterall, Brown Harris Stevens is the "premiere" broker in Lefferts, and I bet those 2 townhouse mansions priced in the higher range get their asking. Those are both some phenomenal properties.
All five over the $million sales in Lefferts have been through Brown Harris Stevens, the brokers who never just settles.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2006 11:59 AM
Oh please. There are houses on the market right now for under 1M. And nothing has ever sold for over 1.475M (and the second highest was 1.4M). Bette listed the asking prices of current BHS listings, NOT the actual range of what things in LM are selling for. (and really the highest BHS listing is now 1.5M, reduced from 1.6M.)
As an owner of a LM house that was JUST appraised at 930K, I hate to think that people looking in that range aren't going to come here because the think they can't find anything for under 1M.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2006 12:08 PM
12:08 pm--
Was your house that appraised at 930k a two story? Curious, I'm looking at properties now in Lefferts.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2006 1:43 PM
As the RE frenzy slows, is it unusual if houses (and not just PLG houses) sell for 10 percent or so below asking price?
Posted by: Bob Marvin at June 15, 2006 2:07 PM
12:08--yes its a 2 story. We're now not sure if we want to put it on the market or not. I was expecting a higher appraisal.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2006 2:13 PM
There are huge ranges in price in Lefferts Manor. The $930K properties weren't marketed properly, and anyone who knows these properties also knows the Buyers got a great deal.
Meanwhile, my 3-story on Lincoln Road was appraised at $1.275M b/c it's extra-wide and newly renovated.
I don't think anyone should read too much into the anxiety-ridden market these days. Everything is taking time to sell. I also don't think it's a good time to bail if you currently own in the Manor. A lot of short-sighted sellers are trying to time the market and sell out at the peak. Those people who may not be so good for this neighborhood anyway. There is a glut of housing supply. This neighorhood usually has very few available properties, while currently there are dozens for sale. The homowners who will truly see appreciation are the ones who hold on to their properties for another five years, or those who take advantage of the softer market and buy the undervalued gems that are on sale now.
We all need to continue to invest in this neighborhood.
That's just my two cents, but I believe in this place and have seen wonderful changes already.
Finally, Bette Cunningham rocks. I'd listen to her before I'd listen to anyone else about real estate in the Manor. She's brilliant!
Posted by: C.B. at June 15, 2006 4:24 PM
C.B. You may be right that prices will be better (from a seller's perspective) in 5 years, but I've got a school-age kid who I can't get into a good public school (and private isn't an option), so I can't wait.
There are only a handfull of over 20-foot-wide houses in the manor, so close to 1.3M for one isn't too surprising (especially since nothing seems to actually sell for the appraised price). I don't know why you question the marketing of the houses that sold in the 900's--they seemed quite professional and the houses actually sold.
As for Bette, I like her. But I do question the wisdom of exagerating the price range in the manor. The 2 story brownstones and the tudors featured in the photos aren't selling for over a million. Why pretend that they are? That will just scare off potential buyers.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2006 5:08 PM
a bit odd that brownstoner did not link the post plg article when it not only coincides with the site's subject matter. hmmm.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 15, 2006 6:44 PM
Mr. B might not have linked to thePost article, but I posted the URL at 10 this morning--here it is again:
http://tinyurl.com/ox3eo
Posted by: Bob Marvin at June 15, 2006 7:17 PM
My friend sent her kids to a public school in Boerum Hill which reserves only a portion of the class for children with disabilities. It means your kids get a great elementary education for free, while learning to be sensitized to the needs of others. The school gets raves, and it really helps those who can't afford private school but want their kids to get a top notch elementary education. I'd hate to see anyone leave the neighborhood for reasons of schooling. It seems so unfair.
Of course, you could always buy a condo in a neighborhood with excellent public schools (e.g. PS321). If your mortgage in the manor isn't huge, you could rent your house and move elsewhere. That might be a savvy move.
Regarding Bette, if she overstated the bottom of the market by $70K, it will only help lower priced properties move. If people come into the market expecting to buy for less, they'll only get disappointed.
Posted by: C.B. at June 15, 2006 8:56 PM
Don't worry, we were saving it to for part of a post we're running tomorrow.
Posted by: Brownstoner at June 15, 2006 9:35 PM
the official brownstoner sportsbook has the over under on this forthcoming plg post set at 212. place your wagers at franny's - knock on the kitchen door twice and ask for rudy.
Posted by: franz fanonymous at June 15, 2006 9:46 PM
I wonder what Brownstoner will cook up for us this time. Although I expect the typical back-handed compliment (e.g. Nice 'hood, but...), the only prediction I make is that they'll get a lot of hits and comments from it (so their advertisers will, at least, be happy!).
Actually, I will make a prediction: Brownstoner will do a "critical" look at recent real estate articles which don't paint the gloom and doom bubble picture that they agressively endorse (just like the recent swipe at the Harvard Study).
Anyone wanna make a wager?
Posted by: Ed at June 15, 2006 11:40 PM
Please don't buy in PLG, and especially Rutland Rd., unless you like the neighborhood just the way it is. I moved here two years ago and I shop in the local stores - who needs Starbucks? And those people on the corner are not all drug dealers; most of them are normal, middle to lower income apartment dwellers! I come home at 2 a.m. and feel perfectly safe; unlike other neighborhoods, Flatbush is never deserted and the people are friendly. If you don't feel comfortable with neighbors of another race, culture or ethnic origin, if you don't think you'd "fit in", don't try to change PLG - do us all a favor and buy an apartment in Park Slope!
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 10:39 AM
i grew up in PS during the 80s and 90s. my parents still live in the same limestone. prime block - between 8th ave and ppw, street that formerly had the haagen dazs at the corner of 7th ave, across from belimelios (old slopers know what street i'm talking about). anyway, as recent as the late 80s/early 90s we still had serious crime (woman held up at gun point in broad daylight while entering her home on our block, man shot in the head at ppw and 3rd street (west side of ppw) during daylight. car thefts and muggings galore in the wee hours. from what i understand and have observed over the course of house hunting in and reading up on plg, the nabe is safe and stable, and definitely no less so than the slope of the early 90s, which was pretty darn comfortable. sure plg may lack the amenities that park slope has, but it still has much of the diversity (ethnic and economic) and realness that is gone from the slope. and it's right on the park, and faster door-to-door to midtown west offices than the majority of the slope. anyway, i'm looking at 68 midwood hard (i can confirm how amazing it is in person, inside and out (front and back). we'll see what happens ...
Posted by: csk at June 22, 2006 11:10 PM
All the houses in PLG are over priced. Yes there is glorious details galore. But no one mentions the gun shots at night that make me feel safe.
A handful of white gentrifiers expect to change a very large and predominent Caribbean American community.
One or two restaurants will not make much difference.
Still no public schools where the gentrifiers would send their children.
Maple Street school - glorified day care.
Posted by: ditmas11 at June 28, 2006 12:55 PM
if you don't live there, how do you know that there are gunshots at night? did someone else who doesn't live there tell you about them? and did that person hear it from another person who lives there?
i haven't been reading this blog for that long, but in the time that i have, i have yet to see a firsthand account of danger in plg. just non-residents expressing their negative opinions of the area.
Posted by: csk at June 28, 2006 10:10 PM
it's hard to reach a consensus over whether 68 Midwood is overpriced when there is such disagreement over the terms of the discussion. some find the current state of PLG unacceptable; some find PLG lovable. some find PS heaven in terms of amenities; some find PS getting kind of bland and "yuppiefied".
for PLG to survive and thrive, we don't need 8 million New Yorkers who want to spend $1.4 million on 68 Midwood or similarly high amounts on other houses in the neighborhood. 500 New Yorkers would be just fine! (and if some of them would prefer to live in PS and can't afford it - well, that's fine, too. i would probably rather own a building in the East Village. not gonna happen. i'll be okay.)
i understand the concerns about crime, harassment, schooling, etc. very well, and these are considerations that anyone needs to make in deciding on a neighborhood in which to live.
i must admit, though, that i don't quite get the concern about the "amenities". i get into discussions about the amenities i would like to have in PLG, and get excited about K-Dog and the upcoming Mexican restaurant. at the same time, i know that my "real life" routines are a mix of visiting Olive Vine and Pintchik in PS, buying small hardware items at Hawthorne Hardware, groceries at Associated, lunch at K-Dog, deliveries from Fresh Direct, other items from Target, ordering food from India Place in Prospect Heights, etc. would i be happier if Pintchik were where Phat Albert is? maybe. would i be happier if flatbush between maple and rutland had a Duane Reade, an American Apparel, a Starbucks, a Barnes and Noble and a Blockbuster? probably not.
if i were not reasonably mobile (even as a non-driver), it would be more of a concern for me that Pintchik isn't two blocks from me, and a movie theater isn't five blocks away. being reasonably mobile, i'm not sure i get the concern. are the fact that one has to drive, take a bus or a train (for 30 minutes or less) to get to certain stores really a fatal defect for a neighborhood, if the absence of (an abundance of) those same stores allows a particular type of charm to survive? for many people (not all) maybe it's more important to think about what amenities are readily accessible within 15 or 30 minutes, than to focus only on places less than 10 blocks away, in figuring out the "value" of a neighborhood. (especially when you have within walking distance a small zoo, a large park, and beautiful gardens, with a great library and a museum not much further away.)
Posted by: Michael Williams at July 1, 2006 11:40 AM
We moved to PLG from PH about 6 years ago. PH wasn't the nabe then that it is now in terms of retail. I recall that someone had recently opened PH's first coffee bar on Vanderbilt, which had one nice restaurant and a Key Food and that was it. Flatbush wasn't much better. There was a Korean Deli and one nice restaurant. There were people hanging out on our corner of Underhill and St. Johns day and night. Retail is always the last thing to come around in a gentrifying neighborhood.
Posted by: Mitch at July 9, 2006 6:48 PM
"Man, $1.495 million is a lot of dough for this nabe, isn't it?" said Brownstoner at the top of this thread. Well, this house fetched $1.475M.
Wait to call 'em, Jonny B.
Posted by: Ed at May 18, 2007 6:16 PM
Latest Restaurant Additions
-
Le Barricou
added November 20, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Der Schwarze Kölner
added November 19, 2009 12:00 PM in Fort Greene -
Oak Wine Bar & Café
added November 18, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Mr. Wonton
added November 17, 2009 12:00 PM in Park Slope -
Casa Rosa
added November 16, 2009 12:00 PM in Carroll Gardens -
Cousin John's Café & Bakery
added November 13, 2009 12:00 PM in Park Slope -
Elote
added November 12, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Miracle Grill
added November 11, 2009 12:00 PM in Park Slope -
Phoebe's Cafe
added November 10, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Ruthie's
added November 9, 2009 12:00 PM in Clinton Hill, Downtown Brooklyn
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