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June 19, 2006
Flip-Side of Prohibitively Expensive Windows
We know first-hand how expensive it is to replace the extra-long parlor floor windows having done it last year ourselves. (For those fortunate enough not to have had to do it, it's a couple thousand bucks or more per window.) So it's not surprising that many houses took short-cuts over the years, using standard length windows and just filling in the difference. The patch job at 211 Carlton Avenue is particularly crude though. GMAP
Comments
i saw this too. the house is so nicely finished otherwise i assumed the owners were on their way to replacing the windows.
Posted by: anoon at June 19, 2006 10:36 AM
Brownstoner, was this 2G's for premium brand windows or just a standard brand?
Posted by: Freeform at June 19, 2006 10:56 AM
Well, once it get's patched with some brown cement it will not stand out that much. Nice that they didn't take advantage of the opening with a "Fedders" ac : )
Posted by: Rick at June 19, 2006 10:57 AM
How are they going to fill it in? This is a brownstone. Will they match it with real brownstone material, or the "fake" stuff.
Posted by: Tony B at June 19, 2006 11:00 AM
Tony--no one uses real brownstone material these days...for years it wasn't even available even if you wanted it. Repairs are done with brown stucco.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 11:02 AM
What is "real brownstone material" anyway?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 11:31 AM
What is "real brownstone material" anyway? Brownstone if fake stone and has always been so.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 11:32 AM
this house is a newish FSBO, at $1.4m if I remember, and the full height windows are due to be installed shortly. It'll be on corcoran by july 1st.
Inside it has a lot of original detail but needs a LOT of reconfiguration, as it is a 4 family.
The price is pretty sharp if you are handy, not so great otherwise.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 11:37 AM
Very glad to hear this is temporary. Phew! For years I have felt that putting in short windows and patching below should be a crime punishable by jail time, or at least a sound beating with a handbag. It's horrible, and all one can do is stand in front of one of the victims and wave your fist at the owners. Seriously, if you have enough bread to own a brownstone, save up the extra 3 or 4K for the right windows. Argh.
Next week: People who remove the stoop and put a crappy window where the door was.
Posted by: Worst at June 19, 2006 11:41 AM
So could someone then use brown stucco on their home, and turn it into a brownstone? I just priced vinyl siding at $8/sf for a corner house - comes to almost $20K. for that much could I invest and create a brownstone?
Posted by: tony b at June 19, 2006 11:44 AM
When I lived on Clermont Ave there was one townhouse where the stoop had been removed, but the door (to nowhere) was still there -- pretty funny.
Posted by: babs at June 19, 2006 11:51 AM
The brownstone stucco re-facing is quite expensive 40-60K for a standard facade. And, as I have learned, it's not suitable over a woodframe house.
Posted by: clinton hillbilly at June 19, 2006 12:04 PM
There is/was such a thing as "real" brownstone. It is a sedimentary stone that is prone to deterioration over time. Repairs are usually done with coatings of cement or stucco of varying composistion. Many, if not all contractors refer to this coating as "brownstone". In theory it is possible, but expensive, to get newly quarried stone and replace some stones in your facade. Has any one done this or seen it done at the residential scale?
My experience has been that issues of technical language like this (what is brownstone?) have been the biggest impediments to getting the facade repaired the way we intended.
Here is a great article on Brownstone restoration at the institutional scale:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9501E3DD163AF934A15755C0A96F958260&sec=&pagewanted=print
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 12:10 PM
Brownstone is not fake stone, it is real stone, sandstone I believe. Repairs and resurfacing is done with died cement because it is cost prohibitive to replace the original stone.
The house in the post must be outside of a landmarked district I presume...?
Posted by: lp at June 19, 2006 12:35 PM
No it is in Landmarked District, Prime FG.
Posted by: mm at June 19, 2006 12:50 PM
Then it would definitely have to be temporary or Landmarks would end up fining them for sure...
Posted by: lp at June 19, 2006 1:01 PM
A lot of these brownstones just end up in the wrong hands. It's a disservice to the historic district and the next buyer when things like this are done. It just goes to show that these antique buildings are much more expensive to restore than it seems.
LPC needs to get crack down.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 1:03 PM
couple of thousand bucks wow for windows. my extra long and narrow ones that i'm replacing i dont think cost more than a few hundred and its not standard sizes. maybe youre contractor is a rip off.
Posted by: armchair_warrior at June 19, 2006 1:08 PM
Although I agree with anon at 1:03 completely, I would like to add that landmark or no, sometimes owners cannot afford to maintain buildings appropriately--see Mr. Brownstoner's comments re: window cost--so there's something to be said for a crap job that is reversible at such time owner can afford it or new owner comes in. Therefore, landmarks should fine, but also make sure owner is aware of all available grants, low-interest loans, etc. In other words, note the difference between willful or spiteful failure to maintain and good-faith efforts to keep up your house.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 1:09 PM
Two things:
i) I believe Mr B is talking about the cost of WOOD windows, which do indeed start at a couple of thou and go up from there (Marvins are closer to 5k per). Aluminum replacement windows cost in the hundreds.
ii) Real brownstone is still being quarried (try Weser at www.brownstone.us) but I understand the cost is approx $100k to repair with stone vs $30-60k with tinted cement or stucco -- which is used on 99% of the brownstone facades being fixed today.
Posted by: Anon at June 19, 2006 1:28 PM
Sorry to go off topic, but have a question.
If stucco is not go for wood frame houses, why are there a batch of nutsy wood frame homeowners (particularly in Victorian Flatbush) busily stucco and bricking up their wood frame houses?
It makes no sense to me. There is still a wood frame underneath, so I don't think it does a thing for fireproofing the building. And doesn't wood have to contract and expand and wouldn't wood do it a different ratio then the stucco and or brick?
I'm just hoping that these homeowners wake up one day and their stucco and/or brick is cracked like crazy, or has just plain fallen off the house. Would serve them right for destroying historic Victorian wood frame buildings.
Man do they need to landmark all of Victorian Flatbush!
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 1:39 PM
oops, typo that's 'not good'
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 1:41 PM
I'm not sure why people buy wood frame houses with gables, etc. if what they really want is a brick box. (agreeing with anon 1:39)
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 2:39 PM
What percent of Brooklyn's Brownstones, were originally made with Real Brownstone? My understanding is that many were actually built with cement/stucco over brick? Is that true? If so, was there are time period when there was a changeover to cement/stucco? Or were all of Brooklyn's Brownstones actually built with Real Brownstone?
Posted by: Seamus at June 19, 2006 3:48 PM
this house is for sale? where has it been advertised?
Posted by: anon at June 19, 2006 3:59 PM
They were either real brownstone, or brick with a real brownstone face (i.e. not huge browstone blocks, just a facade several inches thick). The colored concrete resurfacing repair method is definitely a more contempory way of doing things. If done well it looks good. If not, it can have mixed results.
Posted by: lp at June 19, 2006 4:11 PM
The previous owners of our house bought shorter replacement windows and cemented the bottom portion over. And then spent alot of money re-brownstoning the facade of the house. Not only does it look disproportionate on the outside, on the inside, we can't open the lower half of our pocket shutters. Our windows look ridiculous, but the cost of getting new longer windows, knocking out the cement and then re-brownstoning the front is just too prohibitively expensive right now. That's why -- sometimes, it's just better to stick with as much of the original as possible.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 4:20 PM
Some random links about actual brownstone:
http://www.brownstone.us/finishes.htm
http://www.brownstone.us/gallery/quarry01.htm
http://www.therockyardofmuskogee.com/naturalstone.htm
http://www.historichomeworks.com/hhw/pbriefs/pb07.htm#What%20is%20TerraCotta
Brownstone Terra Cotta:
Brownstone terracotta is the variety of this masonry material used earliest in American buildings (mid to late 19th century). The brownstone type is a dark red or brown block either glazed (usually a slip glaze) or unglazed. It was hollow cast and was generally used in conjunction with other masonry in imitation of sandstone, brick or real brownstone. It is often found in the architecture of Richard Upjohn, James Renwick, H. H. Richardson and is associated with the Gothic and Romanesque Revival movements through such ornamental detailing as moldings, finials and capitals.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 4:51 PM
"this house is for sale? where has it been advertised?"
fsbo - craigslist - fort greene
do the right search and you'll find it.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 4:57 PM
And also check out this book:
Bricks and Brownstone : The New York Row House 1783-1929 (Classical America Series in Art and Architecture)
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 5:01 PM
Boy there are a lot of interesting comments here.
I am the owner of that brownstone. It is very nicely located in Fort Greene. I just spent upwards of $55,000.00 redoing the front brownstone facade. Essentially all of the facades details were lost prior to my wife and I purchasing the building about five years ago. It took real craftmen over nine months to complete the brownstone.
I have already purchased the windows for the entire front excluding the garden level (a total of 8 wood windows). The Parlor floor windows are being restored to their original floor to ceiling length. The windows were shorten in the 80tys by a previous owner and I figure a few more weeks or even months will not hurt much.
I have been researching the purchase of the windows for some time and they are expensive (full stop). To have high quality windows installed professionally its at least $2,000 per parlor floor window. You can do alumnium which violates landmark, or have less than professional installation and risk the windows not functioning well (leaky) for less money but you may be like my neighbor across the street who had to have all her front windows redone as a result of air leaks.
I wish the windows were in already seeing that I have already paid for them but the manufacturer must customized them to fit each opening which takes four to six weeks at a minimum.
The house is for sale by me until June 30th at such time Corcoran will be managing the sale.
I am asking $1,500,000 (which is a steal) --There is some flexibility. It will be delivered vacant and if you are comfortable working with contractors it may be purchased at a great value.
There is no more than $150,000 worth of work needed for typical usage. The building has great bones and the work that has been done has been high quality. New staircases, new rubber roof, new two tier deck, new front facade, and more.
If the building were done, I think it would sale for $1,800,000 to $1,900,000
I hope I do not come off too bent out of shape about the comments -
Email me if you are interested in looking at it. paul.f.burton@verizon.net
Posted by: Paul Burton at June 19, 2006 5:08 PM
Paul, you dont sound too bent out of shape at all- and given some of the comments I appauld you. Glad to see your heart is in the right place.
OT
My brother just found out from the Hist Dist that he has to replace 34 windows, all Marvin, ouch.
Posted by: Max at June 19, 2006 5:19 PM
quick note on brownstone stone..there is such a thing, and from what I know all the brownstone in bklyn was quarried during the digging of the lakes in prospect park and greenwood cemetary many moons ago
Posted by: anon at June 19, 2006 5:22 PM
Really interesting post. Let's have more like this.
Anon 1:39, slapping stucco over wood frame exteriors is asking for trouble down the road.
First of all, it's usually ugly, and there oughta be a law against it. (only half kidding) It's usually done by reason of sheer cheapness and corner cutting by people who have no sense of historic perspective. OK, good wood siding or hardiplank is expensive. Granted. Vinyl siding (shudder) is cheaper, but a cheap stucco job probably costs the least.
The problem is that when they slap the stucco on, they are sealing in moisture already in between the siding and the framing. It would seem to me that the application of the metal mesh which acts as a key to hold the stucco on, leaves enough room for the moisture of the stucco itself to be sucked right into the building, which in a couple of years causes mold, creeping damp, and leaks on your interior walls. All of that will end up costing more money, including doctor bills, if you are allergic to mold, than having the house re-sided, or re-painted.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at June 19, 2006 6:04 PM
Wow the asking price is a steal, according to the seller. Also, it is negotiable. Also, if the house were renovated, it would be worth an additional 20 percent. This is according to the seller.
Do any of these comments make sense when taken together? Or do they contradict each other?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2006 9:07 PM
Babs, that building with the floating door on Clermont is 413, I live a couple of buildings down and see it every day. :)
Posted by: Shahn Andersen at June 19, 2006 10:12 PM
"Brownstone" is Connecticut brownstone, a type of sandstone found there. You can see cliffs composed of the stuff in the New Haven area driving along I-95. There is no way it was quarried in Brooklyn since the material that composes Long Island was basically dumped by glaciers. Except for Astoria, bedrock isn't close enough to the surface to quarry.
That is all.
Posted by: carolyn at June 19, 2006 10:37 PM
In response to 6:04 pm (Crown Hieghts Proud), -- With that name you should know a contradiction when you see it.
My earlier comments make perfect sense according to the Seller and at least two buyers who have offered over asking as of yesterday. For any opinion to MATTER with regard to price it takes a prospective buyer AND a SELLER to be in agreement.
Regarding "its a steal":
The difference in absolute price is roughly $300,000 to $400,000 let us use the mid-point, $350,000. Your comment left out my esitmate of the cost to complete the renovation for someone with average know how of $150,000 -- that leaves a $200,000 value. Since the modern world does use mortgages to finance large purchases of high ticket items that 20% reference in your comment is misleading in terms of understanding value. Where I come from $200,000 is a lot of money.
Regarding flexibility on price -- perhaps here you have a point regarding the contradiction (if you want to be narrow in your thinking) --I have found that someone that provides a little flexibility in the beginning usually is the benefactor of others flexibility in the end.
You know where I live!
Thanks,
Paul Burton
Mr. Contradiction
Posted by: Paul Burton at June 20, 2006 7:46 AM
surprise landmarks did not pick up on this
Posted by: Shopkeeper at June 20, 2006 8:43 AM
Some of the Brownstone was quarried on the banks of the Hudson. They stopped when presevationists objected to how ugly the river was beginning to look.
As for the stucco over wood frame houses, There is a great deal of ignorance out there about the product and many contractors who do this work are uneducated or just plain criminals. There is a nationwide class action suit against the product. If you wrap your house in plastic and then that layer fails, allowing water to enter, you will trap the moisture inside against the wood forever.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 20, 2006 10:10 AM
Paul Burton - before getting personal, you should please note that names are placed BELOW a post - and that, accordingly, you should be taking swipes, if that's your preferred form of communication, at the anonymous person who posted at 9.07 pm. Otherwise, we'd all be calling you Carolyn.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 20, 2006 12:46 PM
My apologies
Posted by: Paul Burton at June 20, 2006 3:27 PM
Mr. Burton, offers are not deals.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 21, 2006 8:21 AM
Give the guy a break, everyone here has been deriding his house, he responds with restraint, then you pick apart everything he says. He owns a beautiful brownstone in Fort Greene and is in the process of selling it for a decent chunk of change. Let the man live.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 21, 2006 12:54 PM
Much of the original Brownstone for this area was quarried in Portland Connecticut and floated up the Gowanus Canal. The giant quarry, which operated from the 1700s was flooded and closed by the 1938 hurricane. A portion of it was re-opened in 1995 by Mike Meehan, www.brownstonequarry.com, 860-342-2920. Mike cut new stones to our specifications for underneath the new Parlor Floor windows. The new stones were installed by Lascelle Edwards 917-640-0298. The windows (with inslated glass) were built out of clear cedar by Millwork Specialties, 718-768-7112. The work can be seen at 191 Dean Street (between Hoyt & Bond).
Posted by: baseballcard at December 29, 2008 11:47 AM
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