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June 8, 2006
Catholic Church and City Stick It to Fort Greene
Here's a rumor straight out of The Da Vinci Code...The eight-story pre-war building on the corner of Clermont and Greene has been home to a group of priests for years. According to a tipster who lives nearby, the priests began moving out last week to make room for the building's new occupants: 155 juvenile delinquents. The Catholic Church reportedly has leased the entire building to the City which obviously feels that Fort Greene is getting too nice. After a neighborhood has spent a couple decades pulling itself up by its heels, why not throw up another roadblock. Anyone have further details?
Update: It appears that the Church is partnering with a non-profit group called ANCHOR to create an urban boarding school, 15 or 20 of whose students will be housed in this building. It's unclear if the rest of the building will continue to house priests.
Comments
You live in the big city kids, not Scarsdale. I have lived near homeless shelter and drug rehab clinics in my day. The place must be well run and safe, but its the price sometimes of living in New York that you sometimes must live near the less fortunate.
Where would you prefer these children be dumped? Far Rockaway?
Posted by: GrandPa at June 8, 2006 11:38 AM
VERY Far Rockaway! Well- not really. Still, while one realizes that everyone needs and deserves a place, it's natural to want that place to be somewhere else. I understand the need for Halfway Houses, Methadone Clinics, Electrical Substations, High Schools and Wine Bars, but given a choice, I'd prefer not to live next to one. ESPECIALLY High Schools- man are those kids loud and rude! Go ahead, call me a NIMBY. Seriously. Say it! I know you're gonna. so let's just get it out and overwith, huh?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 12:08 PM
Wow! It completely blows my mind that you equate Halfway Houses, Methadone Clinics and HIGH SCHOOLS??!!
Posted by: Oh Lord! at June 8, 2006 12:36 PM
I also don't get the Da Vinci Code reference.
Posted by: GrandPa at June 8, 2006 12:45 PM
way to blame the Catholic Church for this one. Of course if the Catholic Church sold the building to another rich developer to make fancy condos you'd be blaming them for gentrifying the neighborhood "too" much too quickly.
Posted by: dre at June 8, 2006 12:56 PM
You ever live next to a High School? I would take a halfway house over that any day- even a wine bar would be better!
Posted by: Max at June 8, 2006 12:56 PM
With all of the budgetary shortfalls and closing parochial schools, you'd think the Catholic diocese would have a bit more business acumen when deciding to vacate this prime location.
Instead, it sounds like this will be a juvi hall. Maybe the pretty surrounds will make the juvi's reform. Doubt it.
Posted by: lp at June 8, 2006 12:57 PM
Great idea Catholic Church, take a prime location in a landmarked neighborhood and make it into a juvenile detention center.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 12:59 PM
and for the record, this would be a great condo conversion candidate. No problem with that at all...
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 1:00 PM
Agreed. High Schools and METHADONE CLINICS? Gimme a break. I lived next to Brooklyn Tech for a year and loved it.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 1:01 PM
From what bstoner posted, this will not be a High School, it will be a center for juvenile deliquents (a detention center or a halfway house...it is not clear). But young, disturbed deliquent teenagers with anger issues and absent parents are generally not looked at as a good thing. I don't understand the "this is the city" and "serves you right" comments. I also think that, unless the City is paying the Church (or whoever owns the building) a significant amount of money, that this is a bad commercial decision.
All that said, this is all rumor. The "deliquents" may in fact be troubled kids who need a nice home. If they are not a bunch of violent teenagers, then this might be something worthy of the community's support. Without details of who the "deliquents" are and what types of things they've done or had happen to them to land them in the place, it's hard to make a judgment call.
Posted by: lp at June 8, 2006 1:06 PM
I live across from a HighSchool - albeit a smallish one and find it much less a nuisance than the bars/restaurants around the corner.
And Brownstoner really sounding NIMBYish today - that FG can't handle a juvenile hall.
C'mon - go back to the UES or the burbs if you can't handle real city living.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 1:11 PM
Anyone who thinks that equating Brooklyn High Schools with Halfway Houses and Methadone Clinics is wrongheaded has obviously never been on baord the C train at 3:00 PM on a weekday. This experience is so jarring as to cause even the most philanthropic amongst us to lose faith in mankind. I found myself wishing for a firey derailment or a sudden appearance by a pack of hungry werewolves - anything to quell the infestation of screeching, bullying, gum popping teenage subhumans.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 1:28 PM
Here's a wild stab in the dark. The Catholic Church is a religious/charitable organization. These organizations are mission-driven. There's probably not enough priests to fill the building, so they are going to use it for a purpose related to their mission, a condo conversion not being one of them. Also, don't people think that juvenile delinquents tend to come from less than stellar neighborhoods and it just might be a good thing to have them be in a nicer environment? And yes, I have lived near 2 highschools and a meth clinic & a group home & would do it again.
Posted by: anon at June 8, 2006 1:45 PM
yeah, well back in my day we didn't even have subways! we burrowed under the streets ourselves with nothing but an ordinary soup spoon.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 1:45 PM
Enought with the NIMBY stuff folks. Who are we to say what's okay to inhabit our neighborhod? And who are you b'stoner to tell another property owner what to do with their property? Smells like the same issues we are dealign with relating to Ratnerville. And btw, one of the things they are looking to demolish over there is an emergency housing bldg for families on Dean Street. Should we now equate Ratner's proposals with progress as a result of more rich people coming in to that nabe. And where exactly should teens in need live??
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 1:47 PM
Not quite like having a jail next door.
Posted by: crouchback at June 8, 2006 1:53 PM
are you kidding me with this? looks like a great bldg and a great idea to give these guys a new shot. honestly, you better move to the upper east side if this kind of thing bothers you
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 1:54 PM
At 3PM I'm at work in an office. At 2AM I'm trying to sleep and being awakened by overgrown post-teenagers breaking bottles, shrieking, puking ,etc after too many maritini's after they depart their oh so trendy clubs,hip bars etc.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 1:56 PM
I think this is exactly what the Catholic Church is supposed to be doing.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 2:03 PM
Wow, Brownstoner, you come across looking REALLY bad here, there's just no way around it. So what neighborhood, in your opinion, deserves this "roadblock"? Jeez.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 2:08 PM
I think they shouldn't be in this building, jails are supposed to be out of residential hoods, curch mission ......... or politics???
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 2:16 PM
I certainly wouldn't want 155 juvenile delinquents descending upon my street, especially if I paid more than a million for a brownstone there. Why's that "really" bad? It's just human nature.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 2:17 PM
guess what, there are 155 juvenile delinquents in every hood. or, if not them, a halfway house for adult ex-cons or for girls juvenile delinquents or an assisted living facility for people with mental illness and some minor criminal record, or something. it IS nyc afterall.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 2:22 PM
I'm not saying it isn't natural to want this somewhere other than in your own backyard, it was just the tone of entitlement. As if FG is special or unique in having caring residents or having improved a lot over the years. No, it just has more rich residents these days than other neighborhoods, so let's "stick it" to them instead.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 2:25 PM
Catholic Church and City to Fort Greene: DROP DEAD.
oh lord. too funny.
Posted by: 9000 at June 8, 2006 2:33 PM
I see your point. It raises similar questions to the discussion a few months ago on "valuable" FG waterfront property being "wasted" on projects. Probably shouldn't go there, though.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 2:33 PM
I always thought that building was a nursing home...
Posted by: evelyn at June 8, 2006 2:40 PM
155 juvenile delinquents? Catholic priests? These wouldn't be 155 boy juvies by any chance? Why am I not surprised? Bring on that altar wine wine and lock the confessional!
Posted by: Elmer Gantry at June 8, 2006 2:40 PM
This is what living in a city is about, It's always changing! We like to think of ourselves as a bunch of small towns under one roof but this is not the case. We will just have to see if this home for "so called juvenile delinquents" is any better or worst than John Jay High School in PS. I lived near John Jay for years and it was clear to me that that was a home for juvenile delinquents too.
Posted by: annon at June 8, 2006 2:42 PM
The Pope personally wants to make Ft Greene his bitch.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 2:49 PM
Before everyone gets down on Brownstoner, the truth is the building was vacated on Friday late afternoon around 4ishPM last week. It was a hush hush situation and there was no dialogue with the community. Perhaps they do not have to dialogue with the community but the fact remains the Archdiocese runs Bishop Loughlin High School next door. The school depends on tuition and the Fathers who lived in the recently vacated bldg often interacted with the HIgh School. Now that juvenile delinquents will be housed there perhaps that will have a detrimental effect on its enrollment. Afterall however you feel more parents are moving here. Sorry Church this one was stupid on your part. GIve brownstoner a break. Why were they so hush about this move???
Posted by: Anon at June 8, 2006 3:02 PM
this is my favorite part:
"After a neighborhood has spent a couple decades pulling itself up by its heels, why not throw up another roadblock."
let's be real, most [observe the word 'most'] of the complainers were not around when fort greene was tainted due to brooklyn's general crime climate... i don't think this gentrification process that the aforementioned are a part of can refer to themselves as 'pulling the neighborhood up by its heels'...
rather, you can thank daddy and your trust funds - insert expletive here with an 'ers' suffix.
Posted by: Rene Prosper at June 8, 2006 3:05 PM
We don't even live in Fort Greene but if we did live around the corner from this, we'd be bummed for sure. We can just imagine the cat-calls and harassment that our daughter would have to go through every day walking home from school in a few years. No thanks. It's ridiculous that NIMBY has become this blanket label to throw at anyone who doesn't want to tolerate shitty quality of life. This isn't a binary issue where one has to embrace 1970s-style New York or move to Scarsdale. We suspect everyone is a little NIMBY, though the things they don't want in their backyards may vary.
Posted by: Brownstoner at June 8, 2006 3:05 PM
I lived on a block in Bed Stuy that has a converted brownstone that was residential housing for PINS boys. Ten years after we moved in, the program changed to a day program for boys that had been removed from public school for infractions but who were not otherwise in trouble. At no point during the time that I lived there were there ever any problems with the boys. The people that ran the facility were always very thoughtful about the impact on their neighbors. The kids did not hang outside of the house and when they were outside they were always accompanied by staff members. This was a state-run facility but until they hung a sign outside of the building few people off the block even realized it was not a private home.
If the adults in charge set a good tone, this may be invisible to the neighborhood.
As folks have said this is still a rumor. It may be foster kids, or children waiting for adoption or any of a hundred other needy types of children. Why not wait for more info before deciding that the project is worthless?
Posted by: Oh Lord! at June 8, 2006 3:16 PM
Ok, that is it... I'm off this Board, Brownstoner. You class bate and race bate at every chance you get.. You don't give a damn about social issues underpinning neighborhoods. You simply don't care... I think that cavalier attitude, in a forum such as this, is really insidious. It encourages trolls and nastiness that you pretend to want to discourage.
Did it ever occur to you that some people want to visit their kids when they are in detention? That it has been proven that keeping families close together during incarceration decreases chances of recidivism?
Anyway, it has been fun the past 6 months, but I won't be back.. I wish you all the best, but encourage you to keep more focused on architecture. When you look at social issues, you bring down your own blog. Best of luck.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 3:22 PM
Ever wander around Ft Greene in the middle of a weekday? It's a real different scene... With all the gentries at work, many of the folks you see during these non-office hours are remants of the old Ft Greene. Some actually live at the half-way houses (for lack of a more precise term) that still pepper the landscape, perhaps even quietly tucked in a brownstone next door. In other words, the neighborhood is already home to shelters of various sorts and the fact that people don't know this isn't a function of some sort of cover-up. There is rarely, if ever, any trouble coming from these transitional homes. Why should we expect any less from the corner of Clermont and Greene?
Posted by: vaporguy at June 8, 2006 3:22 PM
term 'juvenile delinquent' sounds so 50's. The building on Boerum Pl. -St. Vincents I think -just north of Atlantic used to be a home for years (maybe still is)-featured in that novel by whatshisface from DeanSt.
And I don't recall being such a negative factor in neighborhood - so don't get yourselves all worked up over something you don't really know about.
Your very centrally located ever-gentrifying neighborhood has to house some of these facilities too.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 3:27 PM
Wow, from Brownstoner's original post to many of these responses, I am really offended. The church has been a continuous presence in Brooklyn and it has provided services to generations of Brooklynites. It owns a piece of property and is making some money by renting it to the city (for delinquent teens?). The money will probably go to providing more services to people you don't want to look at but who for some reason insist on staying in Brooklyn and messing up your property values.
These kids may have nowhere else to go. I have no idea if the halfway house will be good or bad, but I know the kids there will be better off than they would be in the streets, which is where you'd people like them to be--as long as they weren't gentrifying streets of course.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 3:32 PM
Race baiting? That's ridiculous. Just the opposite. Our position is that any immediate neighbor--regardless of race--would be less than thrilled with this development, if it is in fact true.
Posted by: Brownstoner at June 8, 2006 3:35 PM
come on, the kids in detention halls are the ones who weren't smart enough to evade capture. the ones to worry about are the crafty ones who are still out on the streets! :)
Posted by: Jimmy Legs at June 8, 2006 3:36 PM
Brownstoner,
Your blog is becoming more and more subjective lately, from your post yesterday regarding Bedstuy, to this.
I think if you are going to discuss social and economic issues relating to Brooklyn, you should be less opinionated!!
This blog started out as a great resource highlighting the great aspects of historical brownstone Brooklyn.
It seems that of late it's become a forum for what's wrong with Brooklyn!!
I think you should go back to your original focus.
If you want to live in Brooklyn, then contribute to the neighborhoods you live in and stop complaining!!
Life doesn't work the way that we want it to, life is about having options and making decisions.
And for those of you who feel different, why not just buy up Brooklyn, and turn it into everything that it is not!
Can we get back to brownstones?
Posted by: Freeform at June 8, 2006 3:36 PM
Fair enough, Freeform. You'll be happy with some of the new things getting going on the blog next week then.
Posted by: Brownstoner at June 8, 2006 3:42 PM
I cant wait for the real estate crash so we can go back to the good ole days of FG!
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 3:42 PM
jeez people, i don't agree with (my interpretation of) his take on this one, but it's HIS WEB SITE. brownstoner owes us nothing. at least he's letting us voice our dissenting opinions on his web server space. and as blogger.com's slogan goes, "get your own blog."
Posted by: Jimmy Legs at June 8, 2006 3:45 PM
To anon@ 3:22. Race and Class issues cannot be ignored in any debate concerning urban expansion or renewal. It is impossible to sanitize any discussion of architecture in an urban setting thusly. I also think it's quite unfair to accuse thus blog of class and race baiting at every chance when the brownstone neighborhoods are themselves the focal point of changes in the dynamics of race and class that NYC has experienced since before the arrival of the first European settlers.
Posted by: crouchback at June 8, 2006 3:47 PM
Jimmy Legs
Exactly, such are my sentiments!
Too bad we couldn't just get our own neighborhoods in the process. Wouldn't that be great?
Posted by: Freeform at June 8, 2006 3:50 PM
I hope 3:05 isn't the real Brownstoner and just a troll.
Posted by: Pete at June 8, 2006 3:57 PM
As Brownstoner has said before, their perspective on social issues is from a decidedly market perspective, nothing more, nothing less. Context, people, context: It's not their fault if prisons and detention centers have an impact on real estate values, and it's fatuous to take them to task for reporting on it or having an opinion about it. And while I agree that it is wise to maintain a certain focus, I personally think it's great that this blog has become something of a Brooklyn Curbed. It's the commenters who are pushing Brownstoner beyond its lot lines.
Posted by: rascal at June 8, 2006 4:03 PM
Stoner, don't bend on this. Please. These issues are very pertinent and should be discussed and explored. I agree with your post 100%. If true, this is bad news for FG and is devastating for the immediate homes. Why all the PC? Folks spent a lot of money to live in this prime corner and the Church just wiped away $300k of their equity. I wouldn't take the risk on moving in this section of FG. No way!
If true, FG residents should do everything in their power to prevent this occurrence: protest, write to local elected officials and definitely sue. Fight with everything you got b/c something this big is going to wreck havoc on the surrounding area. To those who don't agree with this perspective well don't tell others to accept this situation unless you're living next door and it is you, your family and your biggest asset at stake.
Posted by: BrownBomber at June 8, 2006 4:12 PM
Believe it or not, not everyone is only concerned with real estate values. In fact, I would be happy to live next to transitional housing (and I have in the past) for a number of reasons. So, Brownstoner's position that "any immediate neighbor" would not want "juvenile deliquients" (read: not my kids) is just not true. There is not consensus that NIMBYism is the only way to go...
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 4:17 PM
I agree, it is something the community should know about. However, let's see if we can get some hard facts about it first before protesting. I for one would not be happy with a bunch of teenagers who've had problems with the law where housed across the street from me. It would definitely affect real estate values - rectory on your block vs juvenile detention center...
But, we don't know the details yet, so let's find out first...
Posted by: lp at June 8, 2006 4:18 PM
meant to say "were housed" not "where housed".
To those who choose to live by juvenile halls, good for you. The people currently living around this building do not have a choice right now. If this is to be a juvi detention center or something of that ilk, they just have to live with it and the potential problems it will bring, whether they like it or not.
Posted by: lp at June 8, 2006 4:21 PM
"I would be happy to live next to transitional housing (and I have in the past) for a number of reasons."
Renting next to "transitional" housing and owning next to "transitional" housing are two entirely different things! Unless you're some kind of sato masochist, what property owner in his or her right mind would "prefer" to live or own a building next door to a juvenile detention center? Are you crazy?!?!? Anon, unless you own or are a stakeholder, save the PC crap for someone else! No one is buying it!
Posted by: BrownBomber at June 8, 2006 4:25 PM
Brownstoner, I hate to tell you but if your daughter is even remotely attractive she'll be dealing with catcalls no matter where you live. This is NYC people!
Posted by: Anon at June 8, 2006 4:27 PM
Jeez, you guys sure are a bunch of yuppie elitists. I'll tell you what, Brooklyn doesn't need you or your lattes anyway, why don't you all just move out past the eight mile...
Posted by: anon at June 8, 2006 4:31 PM
I luv criminals, deliquents and unemployed angry youths. I hope to buy a nice house where they all live so I can feel righteous with my cool, laid back PC attitude. ;)
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 4:36 PM
Bomber, 300k in equity???? come on!!!!
What are 150 juvenile deliquents going to to to FG? Burn it down? rape and pillage?
What type of impact will seeing and possibly interacting with successful, progressive people(many who are from african descent)have on these kids?
Maybe some might be inspired and re-evaluate their waywardness.
FG does not need another yuppie, buppie, hipster, etc.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 4:39 PM
Anon 4:31, you're a student at Fordham! What the heck do you know about real estate? You probably live in a dorm!
Now this may not be polite but "grown folks are discussing grown people's business!" Now back to your room!
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 4:41 PM
That's right Brownstoner! We're rude and nasty in NYC and Brooklyn! That's what makes it so cool and gives the City its culture! Make sure you're children get some tatoos while their young and learns how to fight and tell people off so their not "disrespected" in the street.... How dare you raise a potential quality of life issue! You are so "entitled" and probably hate litter on the streets, dice games and drug dealers too. What's the matter with you?!
Give me a break...
Posted by: lp at June 8, 2006 4:46 PM
"FG does not need another yuppie, buppie, hipster, etc."
Perhaps true but are we crying out for a bunch of psycho teenagers?!?!?
Give me the yuppie, buppie and hipster anyday.....
Posted by: Anon at June 8, 2006 4:46 PM
oops, "they're" not "their"
Posted by: lp at June 8, 2006 4:48 PM
Who are the neighbors that everyone is talking about? The school is the biggest and closest neighbour. They own(ed) all of Clermont between Layfayette and Greene, with the exception of 2 house by Layfayette. Are they complaining? What about the neighbors on Clermont heading toward Atlantic? Who's a bigger threat to their livelyhood? A Juvenile home or Ratnerville? Who do they oppose more?
The same can be said for the Greene House Condos care and the senior home accross the street?
Those are all the immediate neighbors. They might have something to worry about. But what about everyone else? Whats your beef? Why are you so scared?
If they can build brand new condos next the the Brooklyn Detention center on Court St. Why cant a much smaller juvenile center co-exist in FG?
Wouldnt it be reasonable to assume that such a facility would bring with it added security to the neighborhood. Isnt this a good thing?
Or should this building simply be converted into condos...
Posted by: ItsAWrap at June 8, 2006 4:48 PM
Sorry about the numerous grammatical errors and typos in my post(s) ...
Posted by: lp at June 8, 2006 4:49 PM
The church needs money? Sell it! And yes, build condos! There you have it! The shame...... ;-)
Posted by: BrownBomber at June 8, 2006 4:50 PM
Yes, reconfigure as condos, good idea and would make the Church more money so maybe they wouldn't have to shut down parochial schools.
Posted by: lp at June 8, 2006 4:51 PM
Love that comment about City feeling FG is getting too nice, so now there's a plot to lower property values. Forget about the fact that the city reaps tons of money every time anything gets sold, so it would seem kind of counter-productive as a tactic.
Years ago, in trendy tribeca, there were plans to open a methadone clinic. Residents went nuts, protesting that there weren't any drug addicts in tribeca. They drafted a petition and held a rally. Unfortunately, in the effort to be politically correct, the fliers were worded so poorly, that several drug addicts showed up hoping for treatment. As I type this, I'm hoping that hundreds of "juvenile delinquents" are camped out in front of that building waiting for a spot.
Posted by: OhComeOn at June 8, 2006 4:53 PM
They can't read or use a computer, so I doubt it. Probably out snatching purses...lol
Posted by: lp at June 8, 2006 4:56 PM
If Fort Greene and Clinton Hill do not have a fair share of social service facilities then we should not be alarmed by this. However, as the successful protests over 80 Hanson Place Drug Treatment Center (I think about a dozen years ago) indicated, the neighborhood already had a fair share and refused to be a dumping ground because we lacked a strong voice and the will to protect our quality of life. So we should ask where are similar facilities as this are and maybe Far Rockaway or Brooklyn Heights is a fairer location for it.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 4:56 PM
I actually live on Clermont between Greene and Fulton. I'd appreciate some info on how to figure out what the Church is actually doing instead of 70 social commentaries on the pros and cons of juvenile delinquents.
Posted by: Lisa at June 8, 2006 5:15 PM
Well if "roadblocks" will keep you nasty, selfish snobs out of Brooklyn. I saw bring on the roadblocks. You people make me want to hurl!
Posted by: Ki$$MyA$$ at June 8, 2006 5:25 PM
Seriously, Brownstoner's tone may have been a bit off but I think people are being a tad sanctimonious here. We don't know exactly what the background of these kids is but let's face it, 'juvenile delinquent' is a fancy way of saying 'young criminal'. Where to house and rehabilitate kids like this is a thorny issue but honestly, what homeowner - or renter for that matter - welcomes convicted criminals next door? That's not even liberalism; it's masochism.
If these were genuine sentiments we wouldn't have a problem. The open-armed among you could divvy up the delinquents to your hearts' content. My guess is that many of those protesting Brownstoner's original post are not homeowners themselves or are comfortably ensconced far from the intersection in question. And, of course, talk is cheap, especially when it's an opportunity to bash people you envy.
The other thing I wanted to say is that this isn't just about property values. (Although who in their right mind, saddled with mortgage debt and worried about a cooling market welcomes a new threat to the value of their single biggest asset?)
This is about crime and safety. I live on the block where, a couple of weeks ago, two people were shot and killed. We already have a methadone clinic, complete with dealers touting for business. Why would I want an infusion of new criminals into the neighborhood? As we discussed in another thread the local cops have basically washed their hands of the most crime-ridden corridor in the neighborhood. Councilwoman James has said the problem is insoluble. It doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the way this would pan out.
Posted by: TW at June 8, 2006 5:32 PM
Yes, it's very snobby to repair old buildings and not want criminal halfway houses in your neighborhood, what jerks... lmao
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 5:33 PM
what is Da Vinci Code about this? the Catholic Church has been in social justice work forever and it means sometimes you gotta get down and wash the feet of the unwashed.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 5:41 PM
Don't worry this will be balanced out by the fact that they are closing down the Walt Whitman houses...-300K for the new juvie-hall...+500K for the adult juvie-hall...net-net big win...
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 5:43 PM
brownstoner rocks, even when i disagree, precisely because i can! thanks b'stoner. ignore the haters and keep it coming.
ps. i don't think you're brooklyn curbed. talk about sanctimonious and snug...
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 5:47 PM
It would be great if the community and neighborhood would embrace the facility and volunteer to work with the kids, helping them to imporve their lives and helping the bonds of community to grow stronger.
Then NIMBY isn't an issue at all and the neighborhood can all sleep well at night, not only because there will be no disturbances and catcalls, but from the joy and satisfaction that comes from doing something good and positive.
Posted by: Whitbo at June 8, 2006 5:52 PM
OOF! TW at 5:32, I bow to you and your wisdom. Well stated! And anon 5:47 - right on! We love b'stoner and the forum he provides. Even when people actually have the audacity to disagree with me.
Posted by: houseowax at June 8, 2006 6:04 PM
whitbo,
you're cute. that always works. I was a really optimistic inner city teacher in training. then I got assaulted by two of my male students. then I got told by the city that I had to suspend my curriculum because they were changing it, but the new textbooks were not in yet. then I got threats from one of the parents because I sent the son to the principle and it was his last warning. I still get involved, but i have no delusions and nor should you. but it is cute. really.
Posted by: misspriss at June 8, 2006 6:14 PM
Everything in question is so premature. Where are the facts and real issues?
I know the housing market is slowing down, but can't we find other things to talk about that are more productive?
If you ask me majority of these posts are just as juvenile as the subjects in question.
Can we please get back to appreciating the better of what Brooklyn brownstone living is about?
Posted by: Freeform at June 8, 2006 6:16 PM
Where the hell is Marty Markowits when you need him?
WOuld anyone be opposed if the church filled it with anti choice nitwits? How about priests who have a problem with teenage boys?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 6:17 PM
misspriss has it right, albeit in stark form. there has to be a way to help, but the pollyanna in whitbo won't be it. or maybe he/she can take it to city hall and suddenly they'll all get warm and fuzzy and hug and say, well gosh, he/she's so right! - and NY will change in an instant!
Posted by: booya! at June 8, 2006 6:18 PM
misspriss
I had to ask, I thought a teacher was a teacher? what is an inner city teacher?
Posted by: Freeform at June 8, 2006 6:19 PM
Folks, there are already juvenile halfway houses in FG/CH. Right on Clinton Ave, between Lafayette and Dekalb is a juvenile facility. A few doors down from the haunted house mansion. How many people walk past this juvenile halfway house every morning and evening as they commute to work? Did you feel unsafe walking down Clinton Ave?
Contrary to your fears, they things can exist without a negative impact on the community. The fact that this facility has existed for years hasnt held down RE prices on Clinton Ave at all.
Posted by: ItsAWrap at June 8, 2006 6:19 PM
i think whitbo was being ironic...
right?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 6:19 PM
misspriss
I had to ask, I thought a teacher was a teacher? what is an inner city teacher?
Posted by: Freeform at June 8, 2006 6:20 PM
i read it to mean where the teaching was being taught...but, please, post the question one more time
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 6:22 PM
love reading this blog. everyone racing to get to their high horses.
but this is priceless,
"the ones to worry about are the crafty ones who are still out on the streets! "
cracked me up.
hey look at me on the internet.
Posted by: timtoum at June 8, 2006 6:22 PM
Everyone in conversation is so blinded by their own prejuduices. I rest.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 6:24 PM
Why not teach the kids to be home improvement contractors so they can put their criminal backgrounds to use making some real money.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 6:35 PM
ItsAWrap what's the hauted mansion?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 8:09 PM
Why would they want to house delinquent youth in the city? Aren't they better off out in the country where it is less stressful and where they are less likely to get themselves back into trouble? As an added benefit, wouldn't it be cheaper to house them in the middle of nowhere?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 8, 2006 8:34 PM
here is a thought instead of telling them to move to the ues why not move the kids jail to ues and with the folks that love them.
Posted by: armchair_warrior at June 8, 2006 8:52 PM
So sorry I couldn't get to a computer all day. Wow.
How about waiting until more official information is forthcoming before circling the wagons?
Besides that, even if it is a home for wayward youth, the Catholic authorities who run the place are not going to let kids run amok in the streets. The Church's problems with sexual abuse notwithstanding, they have run thousands of homes across the country over these many years and have helped a great many kids straighten their lives out. Catholic programs are generally run very strictly and efficiently. While the stereotype of the strict Jesuits and the disciplining nuns certainly leave plenty of room for both rude jokes and concerns about abuse, the fact is that this tough love has produced more than a fair number of stellar, productive, (and some well known)citizens.
Unlike Anon 8:34, who wants to send the kids to Siberia, it would stand to reason that keeping kids in the city they call home, and working with them to become productive citizens where they live, would be more successful and even more cost effective than shipping them out to some upstate boot camp and then expecting them to come back and avoid temptation.
Finally, I lived on the same block that OhLord! is talking about, and we fought tooth and nail to keep the boys home out. We lost, mostly because it was a done deal long before we even got wind of it. She is right, we never even knew they were there, after the program was started up. I worked at home then, and can say I hardly ever even saw the kids, and when I did, they were always accompanied by staff, and were well mannered and behaved. They have been there at least ten years now, and are not even mentioned as a negative on the block, and I still have relatives there, so I know.
Maybe this program should be given a chance before mobs storm the castle with torches.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at June 8, 2006 11:32 PM
CHP, how big was the transition program on your old block? Just curious. The Clermont/Greene building is huge and would house something like 150 juvenile delinquents (if not more). I'm curious to see if you and OhLord! are comparing apples to oranges. If so, then the "quiet neighbor" case in point that was provided to comfort nearby and potentially affected residents has absolutely no merit. Further, if you know of another location closer to your home perhaps you should make a recommendation to the Church and City and have the JDC relocated to Crown Heights. I mean lets put all the liberal, PC, "help save the children" BS to a true test! Any volunteers?!?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 9, 2006 12:50 AM
didn't realize you guys were anti-catholic till now...but i guess it fits...if you're this ugly now, what are you going to look like in five or six months?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 9, 2006 1:01 AM
Is that you, Ann Coulter??? at 12:50 am.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 9, 2006 1:58 AM
what a bunch of nimby bitches.
it's easy being a lefty when you live in a cocoon....
Posted by: Anonymous at June 9, 2006 6:58 AM
Has anybody called the diocese and asked? Or the local parish? Does the community board know? Because whatever goes into that building can't be as terrifying as the large number of adults raising pitchforks and lighting torches at the mere thought of young black men moving into "their"--oh, that's a laugh--neighborhood. And, yes it is about race. If you guys thought it was going to be a private high school or arts program there wouldn't be a peep. But you hear it may be boys at risk and you know you're thinking black kids and you know you are filled with fear and hate. And that is what is scary and hateful.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 9, 2006 8:37 AM
Triple digits. I can always tell when Brownstoner's comments strike a nerve. It's about race, class, religion, or whether a certain street falls on the border of so and so neighborhood. I guess we will never see a gardening post hit three digit comments unless someone says something about a specific class of people letting dandelions grow in their lawns. What communities need is more transparency when it comes to things that may alter the fabric of a neighborhood. There wouldn't need to be rumors and misinformation if the community boards and block associations made people aware. This is not the same as requiring everyone to ask for permission when you want to do something. For instance developers are required to notify the community board as part of receiving a demolition permit. The C.B. can then notify its residents. As someone who has lived across the street from a homeless shelter for the last 10 years it's not so much the people who live there as the organization who looks after them who are to blame when things go wrong.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 9, 2006 9:03 AM
Anon 8:37. While I don't really have an opinion about the building why is it a race issue? How come when ever there is a discussion on this board about economics or crime do African Americans self identify with the less fortunate and/or criminal? I am not defending anyone's particular stance on this thread but where is it stated that delinquent=black?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 9, 2006 9:22 AM
I'm African-American and many conservative blacks, like myself, do not identify with the underclass or criminals of any race. Please don't make sweeping generalizations. I'm against the JDC because it's unwelcomed by the community and it will adversely affect the quality of life for surrounding residents and significantly reduce their property values. I agree with 12:50am post 100%. This is bad for FG and horrible for nearby residents!
Plain and simple: the community should have been informed and their input should have been taken into consideration. The Church, City and CB should be held accountable. FG residents should raise hell morning, nooon and night to block the JDC. Call me what you want but I don't want drug dealers, prostitutes, gang bangers, addicts or troubled teens of any race living or hanging out anywhere near my home. We should not stand for any JDCs, methedone clinics or short term hotels in FG/CH period! We have a hard enough time cleaning up the neighborhood and don't need the City and Church dumping more problems into the area.
Posted by: BrownBomber at June 9, 2006 10:04 AM
Agreed BrownBomber. We should find out the facts first, though, which you stated in a previous post.
Posted by: lp at June 9, 2006 10:12 AM
i feel bad for these kids who are referred to as juvenile delinquents. what on earth do they have to give back to the catholic church in return for such lovely housing? makes me cringe. damn those religion-mongers... ; )
Posted by: Anonymous at June 9, 2006 10:16 AM
How is this building zoned? What are the requirements for notification? Are you sure kids are going to be housed here and are you sure they're going to be garbage kids? There seem to be a lot of assumptions and hysteria and bashing.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 9, 2006 10:23 AM
I read somewhere that Loughlin was going to phase in a residential component (i.e. "boarding school") for urban youth who could benefit from, presumably, a saner and safer environment during the week than their home 'hoods provide. Maybe it's that. Somebody do Journalism 101 here and make a few calls before ya go all nutsy...I'd do it myself, possums, but I'm on deadline today (sigh).
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at June 9, 2006 10:38 AM
Here you go: (from the school website)
"Bishop Loughlin has partnered with ANCHOR, a nonprofit organization, to create an urban boarding school. This program was established to offer underserved youth a powerful alternative to the overwhelming obstacles that jeopardize academic success. Although Bishop Loughlin is a co-ed school, the boarding program is only open to young men. Participants in the program will reside in a dorm Sunday evening through Friday afternoon and will attend school with the day students. "
So much for the juvenille delinquents, looks like a group of catholic schoolboys.
Posted by: Oh Lord! at June 9, 2006 11:09 AM
And it looks like the size has been greatly exagerated:
"Twenty boys from grades 9 through 12 will be selected. They will live in the former De La Salle Christian Brothers residence which is located next to Loughlin."
Posted by: Oh Lord! at June 9, 2006 11:11 AM
Precisely because of rumors and unknown facts did I find Brownstoner and many commentors statements inflammatory and knee-jerk reactionary.
Of course nobody is going to beg to have any institution as next-door neighbor. But beginning by saying city and church are 'Sticking it' to FtGr. and following later with imagine the cat-calls and harassment our daughter would face if lived next-door (tinge of Willie Horton tactics) is bit irresponsible and FoxNewsish.
Its kneejerk because you jump to conclusions without backing up citing problems with other juvenile homes in residential neighborhoods. KneeJerk because you jump to conclusions and 'imagine' how things would be - based on not experience but in prejudgements. KneeJerk citing specific amounts 'property values' would depreciate - without anything to back yourselves up. Kneejerk because call to rise up and fight without even knowing facts. Assuming that the bunch of you are probably fairly well educated it was pretty alarming.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 9, 2006 11:20 AM
Well, well. I guess the mob will have to leave the castle and the pitchforks and torches will have to go back into storage.
It's going to be a DORM! I think more Choate than Reform School. Property values and purses will remain intact.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at June 9, 2006 11:27 AM
Oh, and 10:23, there is no such thing as a "garbage kid".
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at June 9, 2006 11:31 AM
If this is the extent of the program then I certainly support it wholeheartedly. A boarding school for "at risk" Bishop Loughlin students is an excellent idea! I'm all for helping those who WANT to help themselves. As for community impact, there should be no adverse effect.
Posted by: BrownBomber at June 9, 2006 11:39 AM
No shame in being vigilant.....
Posted by: BrownBomber at June 9, 2006 12:00 PM
BrownBomber, as a proclaimed black conservative, you should have some issues with this program. Do you support vouchers? More to the point, do you support federal subsidies aimed only at parochial and faith based schools? At $12K a head, thats almost $2 million a year in taxpayer subsidies the Brooklyn Archdiocese will receive.
Is that what compassionate conversativism is all about?
How is the community being served by redistributing $2mill/year to Bishop Loughlin? What do they do for the neighborhood. Wouldnt that money be better spent cleansing your own neighborhood of the underclass you are so afraid of?
Posted by: ItsAWrap at June 9, 2006 12:04 PM
High School students : ) I'd way rather have them than Pratt Kids - at least teens aren't going to stumble home from the Alibi at 3 am yelling and puking and knocking garbage cans over while they're doing that nasty "Art" tagging they think is so cool.
I was wondering just the other day (prior to this surprising and unpleasant thread) about all the little group homes in the neighborhood and whether it remains sensible for organizations to continue in their current locations, while the $$ available to them via house sales might be more effectively used helping residents. I think Daytop is still over on President St (or State? I forget) and there are a couple of group homes on Clinton Ave. Are there others?
I have to say the vitriol in this thread made me pretty sad. People always manage to sink beneath my low expectations.
Posted by: coward at June 9, 2006 12:18 PM
yeah, pitchforks and torches back in storage. darn. but wait! i heard there's going to be a new sneaker store on Greene! charge!
Posted by: Anonymous at June 9, 2006 12:19 PM
Well that's great news. Here's a link.
http://www.blmhs.org/admissions/anchor_boarding_school_program.htm
Where does ItsAWrap get the subsidies issues from? Sounds like recently $1.2million came from Wall Street firm donations. In any event, I think this is money well spent.
And ItsAWrap, give BrownBomber a break. I don't think he wants to "cleanse" neighborhoods of the underclass.
I'm honestly excited for the kids that get into this program...
Posted by: lp at June 9, 2006 12:39 PM
ItsAWrap, as for the logistics of the program, I don't have all of the details on how it will be structured and financed. In general, I support school vouchers (not just limited to parochial and faith based schools) and "compassionate conservatism" would certainly include federal assistance to at-risk students who WANT to improve their station in life through education.
With respect to the community, $2 million dollars is unnecessary to rid the area of it's negative element. One would only need to raise enough money to rent a wrecking ball and knock down about three short term hotels, four bodegas and one methadone clinic and the community would be entirely transformed for the better overnight.
Posted by: BrownBomber at June 9, 2006 12:43 PM
Well, looks like we jumped the gun a little on this one. Lesson learned.
Posted by: Brownstoner at June 9, 2006 12:56 PM
Brownstoner,
I think you did it just to get a higher post rating!! j/k
Your blog has been one of the best resources for info I've come across, and I would hate to see it dwindle to this.
Posted by: Freeform at June 9, 2006 1:00 PM
I think it is proper blogging etiquette for brownstoner to post an update to this whole misbegotten post so that those of us who thought it smelled fishy ("juvenile delinquents" is neither a Church nor a government, nor a social work category; just a NIMBY slander) don't have to read though the appalling social views of many commenters here to get the truth.
C'mon brownstoner, it's easy to UPDATE. Do it!
Posted by: David Lewis at June 9, 2006 3:31 PM
ItsAWrap, Brownbomber never said he was a COMPASSIONATE conservative.
Posted by: Yente at June 9, 2006 4:05 PM
CHP: agree 100% re: kids. I meant that folks were writing about kids and treating them like garbage.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 9, 2006 5:48 PM
Thank you, 5:48. When we, as a society, give up on kids, we shouldn't be too surprised when they turn on us. Glad that wasn't your take on it.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at June 9, 2006 7:42 PM
i don't see any problems with bringing in disadvantaged youth. Who else will the priests abuse?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 9, 2006 8:06 PM
I find it interesting that some of those suffering NIMBYism on this thread are the first to accuse DDDB of Nimbyism re AY. Guess none of us are immune. I'm with CHP regarding kids. They are the future and if they don't turn out well we can only blame ourselves.
Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at June 9, 2006 10:24 PM
OK. I was alerted early on about the 'hysterical' account from a neighbor. I suggested contacting brownstoner. He got hurt for it. But you know what, thanks to this blog we found out. As for all the racially charged retoric that is the other less desirable element here not stoner. He has helped us find out the truth.
Sorry brownstoner.
Posted by: Anon at June 10, 2006 9:23 AM
No way. Brownstoner put his own nasty spin on the information he received. He didn't quote you as saying that the city was going to, "stick it to Fort Greene." Why are you taking credit for his being hysterical? He didn't even have his facts straight when he posted this information. Why couldn't he pick up the phone and call the diocese or the school or something? And let's give credit to Bishop Loughlin for pulling down the wood they had for so many years surrounding their school yard. Not it doesn't feel like they are so separated from the community. And I'd personally like to thank the church for attending to those in need. I live nearby and the FGA has had mtgs with the Brooklyn DA's office who has kindly informed us in the past that it's really important to incorporate people who have had a rough time in their past in to the community. They were talking about released ex-cons. But I imagine that kids who have had it rough could especially need to feel that they are welcome in the neighborhood as long as they play by the same rules as the rest of the community.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 10, 2006 8:02 PM
I am a teacher at Bishop Loughlin Memorial High School, and I am shocked by the overt racism that is evident in the exchanges occuring during June of 2007!
Posted by: Mr.P at November 7, 2006 12:00 AM
Sorry, 2006.
Posted by: Mr. P at November 7, 2006 12:30 AM
As someone who attended Deerfield Academy, one of the top boarding schools in the US, I learned the value of a rural Boarding Preparatory environment to a young man from the city.
I am also proud to be the Director of the aforementioned urban Boarding School Program at Bishop Loughlin Memorial High School. When you mention a Boarding School in a rural environment, it makes sense, right? An urban Boarding School may be a new concept to grasp, but it benefits great kids of amazing character and potential, who apply for and receive a $20,000+ scholarship to high school.
(Yes, they not only "need it" as might be implied if you label them "at-risk" youth... they earned it through a competitive process!)
I hope you all can respect that as their new neighbors.
If you can not embrace this concept, it is quite fortunate that negative blog postings can't hold these young men back from success. Coming from diverse and challenging backgrounds in some cases, their resolve is quite amazing and inspires me to go to work every day.
They each deserve four years in the beautiful building that sits on the corner of Greene and Clermont on a school campus that is becoming more prominent and beautiful every day, even in the shadow of neighborhood colleges like Pratt and St. Joseph's.
Thanks to many of you readers and staff for your positive corrections to an initially disappointing blog. Best wishes to you all for 2007.
Posted by: Ray Walker at January 2, 2007 1:02 AM
How about someone consider changing the title of this blog? Just a thought.
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