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June 27, 2006

Breaking: 9 Out of 10 People Against Ratner Plan

poll
Bruce Ratner's taking a whacking in the court of public opinion over at Crain's. Roughly 90% of the more than 6,000 people who've responded so far to the question "Do You Agree with AY Plan?" have answered a resounding "No."
Do You Agree with AY Plan? [Crain's]




Posted by Brownstoner at 9:52 AM | Comments (43)
Categories: Development

Comments

Can you say "ballot box stuffers"? I wouldn't be surprised if some people voted a few dozen times.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 10:15 AM

Typical statement above from an AY supporter who's in denail of the truth.
This poll says it all and it doesn't even mention the abuse of eminent domain and the 2 Billion dollars of public subsidies

Posted by: Puca at June 27, 2006 10:18 AM

Really Brownstoner, you are becoming too much with every anti-AY item you can come up with. Approaching the likes of DDDB et al.
Highlightling one of these silly 'votes' - about as scientific as Lou Dobbs CNN polls. C'mon already.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 10:22 AM

While I think ratner is the wrong guy to develop the yards, I think those online polls are pathetic.

there is no way 6000 people viewed a little story in crains, and all voted. Polls like that are trivially stuffed with a script even a 13 year old could write.

The number of yes votes is probably half the number of people who participated in the poll, give or take.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 10:25 AM

The voting is now about 75-25 against with 8000 votes. If someone was stuffing with a script of some kind, I think there would be a lot more than that. However, deleting your cookies and opening the page in a new browser window will let you revote so if you have a lot of time to kill....

Posted by: cobblestoner at June 27, 2006 10:27 AM

Cobblestoner -
All Dan Goldstein has is time.

Dumb poll, no scientific validity = dumb entry on Brownstoner

Posted by: David at June 27, 2006 10:30 AM

Hey guys, I here there's a poll over at Crain's on whether people are for Ratner's boondogle! Let's show Rat-ner that he can't push us around! Tell your friends, and family, even if they live out of state!!

Posted by: Anon at June 27, 2006 10:32 AM

There is no "ballot box stuffing" because each IP address is only permitted to vote once. I would say it has more to do with CrainsNY circulation, which is primarily professionals and business people. The exeact people who came to Brooklyn and fueled its renaissance. They live in Fort Greene, Park Slope, Boerum Hill, Brooklyn Heights, Prospect Heights. The folks supporting AY life - for the most part - in south Brooklyn. They are also more working class / blue collar and are not likely Crains readers.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 10:37 AM

Puca, I'm sure that if the poll showed widespread support for the Atlantic Yards you'd be lambasting it as a sham.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 10:37 AM

@10:37 - like I said, I was able to delete my cookies, open a fresh browser, and revote. It's definitely possible.

Posted by: cobblestoner at June 27, 2006 10:39 AM

David,
Dumb comments = dumber troll

Posted by: Puca at June 27, 2006 10:40 AM

You are wrong, 10:37. Read 10:27 and you'll see that it's quite possible to vote multiple times.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 10:41 AM

10:37 Anonymous comments = more dumb trolls

Posted by: Puca at June 27, 2006 10:43 AM

Maybe this is why most AY supporters are anonymous. I copied this from nolandgrab and it describes a lot of things wrong with Ratner's proposed AY project.

EMINENT DOMAIN for a private developer who already owns most of the recently developed commercial property adjacent to the site,
PUBLIC FUNDING of stadiums and arenas,
A questionable COMMUNITY BENEFITS AGREEMENT signed with groups receiving money from the developer,
A project the size of THREE EMPIRE STATE BUILDINGS nested amidst four residential neighborhoods (including public housing),
The DENSEST PROJECT in NYC history (as far as anyone can tell),
MORE TRAFFIC for one of the busiest intersections in Brooklyn, adjacent to neighborhoods with some of the worst asthma rates in the nation,
Billions of dollars of SUBSIDIES with no financial transparency,
Heavy-handed developer and his PATRONIZING STARCHITECT,
Discredited SUPERBLOCKS planning, (Why are we letting Bruce Ratner own and close our streets?),
MTA land being awarded to the LOWEST BIDDER (again),
An AFFORDABLE HOUSING program being exploited by a developer who has a terrible track record for keeping promises (there are better ways to build affordable housing),
The proliferation of BOX and CHAIN stores in Ratner malls,
SECURITY NIGHTMARE (A glass and steel structure over a transit hub at a busy intersection -- where's the NYPD viability study?),
State takeover SUPERCEDES LOCAL ZONING,
NO LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT of a major urban development,
TAX BREAKS for luxury housing,
PORK BARREL spending for a FAVORED DEVELOPER where two-thirds of the profits will flow back to the publicly traded parent company in Cleveland...

Or is there one anonymous supporter of AY who keeps on posting? Stuffing comments?

Posted by: Puca at June 27, 2006 10:52 AM

ip is not checked, otherwise people on AOL could not vote. It is trivial to stuff the poll, you don't even need to delete cookies if you use a script - you just ignore the cookies. doh.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 10:56 AM

What a poorly written poll!

How do I respond if I think the city doesn't need more affordable housing, and I don't think the proposed plan would destroy the borough's character??

It's like asking: do you like apples, or do you dislike oranges?

Posted by: anon at June 27, 2006 11:13 AM

Puca,

Once and for all: most people on this board, regardless of whether they attach a name to their posts, are anonymous because their true identity remains a secret. So, please, stop tossing that in as thought it actually makes a difference. Every time this point is made, though, you and other AY supporters conveniently ignore it. Address the contents of the post, not the name attached to it.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 11:17 AM

Ratner must be stopped at all cost! He's going to destroy Brooklyn. I received the DDDB email and voted at least fifty times! I encourage everyone who loves this borough to do the same! Vote as much as possible and get your friends and colleagues to do the same!!! AY is bad for Brooklyn!!!

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 11:26 AM

ANONYMOUS 11:17 you should proof read what you write. I am not an AY supporter. Second what the heck do you mean by "their true identity is a secret" Sounds like Superman and Clarke Kent.
But seriously I've yet to see any AY supporters respond to my post 10:52.There's plenty of content there.

Posted by: Puca at June 27, 2006 11:36 AM

My point, which you still don't seem to understand, is that posts by people who use names like "Crownheightsproud" or "cobblestoner" are just as anonymous as someone who chooses not to enter a name. For all we know, CrownHeightsProud, cobblestoner, and Puca may all be the same person. So, attacking someone for posting anonymously does absolutely nothing to advance your argument. It does, however, highlight how desperate you and other AY OPPONENTS are, given how many failures you have had in your doomed fight to stop one of the biggest power brokers in NYC. I guess I should have some sympathy, as you need all the elp you can get at this point.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 12:01 PM

11:26 - the AY project will will get built, because people (and aparently you're one of them) think that registering a complaint on a web poll will achieve something

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 12:03 PM

AY opponents can't help but tie themselves up in knots whenever they attempt to make an intelligent argument. Where does DDDB get this fact from? "two-thirds of the profits will flow back to the publicly traded parent company in Cleveland"

This is why they have ZERO credability with REAL Brooklynites. They just keep on making stuff up.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 12:10 PM

Puca - how are you not annonymous? What is your full name, address, and phone number? You are the troll here.

Posted by: Bob at June 27, 2006 12:13 PM

I supposed I would be called an AY supporter. Am not involved in any group connected to project and live not next to it but certainly within walking distance.
Do I think its most beautiful plan or design or whatever?, no. But very happy that something of large scale proposed, housing stock will be increased including so-called 'affordable' and NYC will have more office space so won't lose jobs that move to all the new development in JerseyCity. Also worried that area will continue to look like hell-hole for another generation or 2 if DDDB and the likes are able to stop progress.
Would be great if proposal took into consideration some of objections and addressed some concerns.
Yet I find the anti-folks mostly just anti. Just about any of their arguments could be used against almost any development that takes place in this city. Yet they only exist to complain about this 1 project and bring up arguments, eminent domain, traffic, security, density, subsidies, shadows, etc that occur all the time and they are silent because other projects are not in their back-yard. And the nonsense about 'Destroying Brooklyn' makes for drama, hysteria but not for real dialog. Look at all development on west side of Hudson - and all the jobs going there. Has Jersey City and all been destroyed or improved?
And I'll put my name down so won't be called anonymous.

Posted by: Pete at June 27, 2006 12:13 PM

Puca - how are you not annonymous? What is your full name, address, and phone number? You are the troll here.

Posted by: Bob at June 27, 2006 12:13 PM

Pete - EXACTLY!

Posted by: David at June 27, 2006 12:42 PM

I would like to vote. Is voting over? I guess Crain doesn't want to see Ratner win, huh?

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 1:03 PM

For the record, I'm not Puca....or am I?

Posted by: cobblestoner at June 27, 2006 1:36 PM

I just knew that when I posted it was a mistake but here goes anyhow.
ANONYMOUS 12:01 Puca is my name. my point being if you're in favor of AY and can explain why anyone should be , then put your name behind it.
ANONYMOUS 12:10 what exactly is a REAL brooklynite? OH I know you just made that up. That's why you have ZERO credibility. What about the other facts?
Pete I am in favor of the Extell plan and The UNITY Plan which follow The Community's Guidelines.Check them out http://dddb.net/php/community/extell.phpThe Extell Plan is a large scale project which will do all of the things you want.I am in favor of development.What's the name of the group DEVELOP Don't destroy Brooklyn.
I have been to numerous public meetings in the Bronx when the Yankee Stadium project was being proposed and so have many other people opposed to Ratner. I was present at numerous public meetings and testified also when the Downtown Brooklyn rezoning was being proposed.
Just because eminent domain, traffic, security issues, density,public subsidies, shadows takes place all the time we should just accept it? This is progress? The folks who are against AY aren't just anti development. Check out the link and see what type of development we are for. http://dddb.net/php/community/principles.php
that's it see ya.

Posted by: Puca at June 27, 2006 1:58 PM

Check out the old photos of what the area around BAM looked like in the 80s (www.curbed.com). Thank God for Ratner. The next time someone decries the ugliness of his mall, I'll show that person those photos.

Progress!

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 2:04 PM

Almost everyone single person I know or meet is against this plan. The one's that think they are for it quikly change their minds against the project once they here all the facts and see the renderings. I do not think this is gonna happen. This project will be tied up in litigation for years!!!!

Posted by: YEAHI'MMANONYMOUS at June 27, 2006 2:17 PM

anon above. you wrote:
AY opponents can't help but tie themselves up in knots whenever they attempt to make an intelligent argument. Where does DDDB get this fact from? "two-thirds of the profits will flow back to the publicly traded parent company in Cleveland"

This is why they have ZERO credability with REAL Brooklynites. They just keep on making stuff up.

---------
well, maybe you can take back your words, this quote: "two-thirds of the profits will flow back to the publicly traded parent company in Cleveland" comes straight from the hometown paper of Forest City Enterprises, the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

Unfortunately the link doesn't seem to work any more, but you can find its reference here:

http://www.nolandgrab.org/archives/2005/11/wednesday_speci.html

in the Plain Dealer article about Forest City Ratner, it says:
"Moore, from KeyBanc Capital Markets, said Forest City puts up all the money for Bruce Ratner's developments. When they're completed, he said, Bruce keeps a third of the profits; the rest flows back to Cleveland. Cleveland has the ultimate say on investment decisions."

so, THAT my friend is where DDDB gets its facts from. the well-respected hometown newspaper of the parent company.

zero credibility? i think that would be you, my friend. do a little research before commenting wildly.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 2:43 PM

http://atlanticyardsreport.blogspot.com/2006/06/crains-poll-on-atlantic-yards-project.html

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 2:59 PM

So I scanned the Extell plan , and feel not bold enough. The location deserves somthing grander, opportune spot for something larger and the Extell seems to have no office bldg or arena.(and I don't like that Ratner's plan is scaling down the office and increasing condo).
Arguments such as overshadowing Williamsburg sav bnk bldg are trite.
But would agree with Extell that streets be kept more intact.
Issue to me is keeping this city growing economically, financially competitive and making more affordable housing for real middle class (which doesn't include most of us here).
And I think Extell proposal is squandering a chance for something big that doesn't come along often.
And I know will have impact on surrounding area-some pos some neg - but much much less so than all the hype. I believe we have to keep whole city in mind.

Posted by: pete at June 27, 2006 4:15 PM

without eminent domain, there is no arena.
so if you support the arena, you support eminent domain (and demapping streets for that matter). the arena doesn't fit just on the rail yards.

there are sites in the city that would not require eminent domain for an arena.

additionally the Extell plan includes a school Ratner's dosn't.

Ratner's is extreme density, way off the chart of any other project in the city. explain why that is acceptable, when a reasonable density is possible.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 4:19 PM

without eminent domain, there is no arena.
so if you support the arena, you support eminent domain (and demapping streets for that matter). the arena doesn't fit just on the rail yards.

there are sites in the city that would not require eminent domain for an arena.

additionally the Extell plan includes a school Ratner's dosn't.

Ratner's is extreme density, way off the chart of any other project in the city. explain why that is acceptable, when a reasonable density is possible.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 4:28 PM

wrong wrong, and wrong again.
for hopefully the last time, Eminent Domain is being abused for the Atlantic Yards project, and has been so for well over 2.5 years. by a private entity, w/o government approval. that is corporatism, aka fascism.
the other site is Coney Island. get used to it. because if there is to be an arena in brooklyn at all, thats where its going.

exaggeration and hysteria? again, wrong:
the proposed Atlantic Yards project is THREE TIMES the density of Battery Park City. It would be by far the densest housing project in the city, actually in the world. so again, that is not exaggeration. its you that is misinformed, brother/sister.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 27, 2006 7:49 PM

The Extell Plan never would have worked financially. My guess is that if the MTA had accepted their bid, Extel would have increased the size of their project after the fact.

I support the use of eminent domain and I support an arena.

Anyone who disagrees with me must work for Daniel Goldstein :)

Posted by: Anonymous at June 28, 2006 8:38 AM

ANONYMOUS 8:38 YOU ARE A TRUE TROLL
no one WORKS for Daniel goldstein. Everyone who's fighting this billion dollar boondoggle is an unpaid volunteer who donates their time and energy.

Posted by: Puca at June 28, 2006 8:59 AM

I love how Atlantic Yards opponents feel free to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being in Ratner's pocket, but when the same implication is turned on them they become upset.

Now you know how it feels...

Posted by: Anonymous at June 28, 2006 11:53 AM

ANONYMOUS COWARD 11:53
Not everyone who's in favor of AY is in Ratner's pocket. Just 7 out of the 8 sham groups that signed the CBA and the handful of politicians that support it.

Posted by: Puca at June 28, 2006 1:06 PM

I wasn't referring to the CBA groups. I was referring to online posters and how the "you must work for Ratner" line is used ever so freely by AY opponents.

Now that I attached a name to my post will you stop with the name-calling?

Posted by: Binky (actually my real name) at June 28, 2006 5:46 PM

Sure.
But I still wonder who these ANONYMOUS on line posters are? my feeling is it's just a handful of people, SOME who are POSSIBLY affiliated with Ratner. I sure don't see these online posters at rallies supporting the AY proposal. If they're so much in support why aren't they out there showing it.The only people I see supporting AY are the ones being paid with their little blackberrys in their hands. Go to any street fair in Brooklyn and you'll find a FCR booth with people being paid to hand out balloons and help people shoot basketballs.

Posted by: Puca at June 29, 2006 11:16 AM

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