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May 11, 2006
Gehry's New Vision for Atlantic Yards
Curbed got the scoop on Gehry's latest design for Atlantic Yards (what're we, Dan, chopped liver?) that was presented this morning to a group of journalists (except for one ). So waddya think?
Frank Gehry's Latest Revealed [Curbed]
Comments
Oh My God.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 2:20 PM
this is like that simpsons episode when Gehry takes a piece of paper and crumples it up and uses that shape as the design for springfields new prison.
except instead of paper, he used tin foil here.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 2:23 PM
I think it will look great - especially with the magno-trains and elevated freeways swooping around the monument in Grand Army Plaza towards the rocket-port to be built in Fort Greene park. Why again is this being built in the middle of a residential neighborhood? Mr. Iceberg is this what you mean by unfettered development?
Posted by: putnam-denizen at May 11, 2006 2:31 PM
where's the arena? i don't see it.
Posted by: ltjbukem at May 11, 2006 2:31 PM
When I saw Gehry's design of the Guggenheim in Bilbao, I thought it was fresh and attractive. IMHO, I think his later designs will not age nearly as well. This prototype for the Atlantic Yards looks gimmicky to me.
Posted by: DN at May 11, 2006 2:36 PM
I guess all of the traffic has fallen into the black abyss.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 2:39 PM
it amazes me that all of the ratner provided drawings and renderings usually show one or perhaps 2 buildings. which may explain why most people think of it in terms of a new arena coming to brooklyn. what about the other 20 high rise towers? woops, forgot to include those....
Posted by: david at May 11, 2006 2:40 PM
Hideous and totally inapproprite to Brooklyn. Might make a great moonbase, though.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 2:47 PM
The Borg have assimilated Brooklyn. I'm told resistance is futile.
I like the Bilbao museum. I don't like this, no matter where is is.
Posted by: Brower Park at May 11, 2006 2:55 PM
I think it looks great. Although nothings as nice as the Dunkin Doughnuts and discount stereo outlet there now, or wait, that Modell's/PC Richard complex is a real icon of great architecture.
Posted by: anon at May 11, 2006 2:57 PM
I am really curious, do most of the posters here not like it because they really believe it is bad architecture and will harm the whole city, or do thsy just not like it because it will be a big complex close to their own homes, which was an empty hole when they bought their houses?
Posted by: anon at May 11, 2006 2:59 PM
2:59PM - They dont like it b/c no matter what was proposed they would be against it - unless it was 20 more blocks of 19th century brownstones
Posted by: David at May 11, 2006 3:02 PM
It's pretty ugly, IMO but the kind of ugly that has a certain charm. What I'm really curious about is what is happening at the street level of the building. Are there commercial spaces open to the sidewalk, or is it just tower-wall? How "permeable" is the building?
Posted by: Scott T. at May 11, 2006 3:04 PM
I like it but don't think it will ever be built. When it comes time for construction they will see that doing something like this is much more expensive and they will replace it with a more standard box.
Things like museums aren't profit driven and need to take an artistic angle, this project does not and I don't think that FCRC will be able to justify the extra expense to build a design like this over something that is plain and boring.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 3:08 PM
it looks like Co-op City after a few too many swigs of Cisco.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 3:23 PM
I hate it because it's hideous. It's Gehry's ego trip, not architecture. He can do much better than that but I guess he wants his legacy to read: cutting edge; unliveable, eyesores to order. Ruckus Manhattan by Red Grooms looked better than this.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 3:24 PM
I need to see more pics. Any out there?
Posted by: BrownBomber at May 11, 2006 3:25 PM
Is this for real?!?!?
They have GOT to be kidding!!
Oh, I know, maybe they can start to build it and then it will fall down!!! Problem solved.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 3:37 PM
for the record, there's a lot of Gehry's work that I love but this sure isn't one of them.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 3:44 PM
I hate it because it flies in the face of what I like best about Brooklyn: blocks of brownstones that have architectural rhythm and grace.
This looks like a giant robot seen through an acid trip. Can you imagine the trepidation you'll feel walking on the sidewalk next to this thing? It's so jagged and unsettling. Not Brooklyn-ish!
Also, picture it in 50 years. Good architecture becomes increasingly organic with wear. This will become increasingly shabby-looking.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 3:46 PM
i hate it, although the pixellated resized picture doesn't do it any favors.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 3:46 PM
Hey...watch the Co-op City crack. I used to live there for years before moving to BK.
As for the building - I think it will be out of place (and no, I am not suggesting brownstones). I think that it is way too modern and belongs on the Jetsons or Battlestar Galactica (sp?). It belongs in midtown near the Citcorp building or in LIC or on the Jersey City waterfront.
NB: Not a typical AY-hater I usually stay out of the AY debate except for discussions about traffic (I avoid that nuissance area by driving on the Park Ave. "highway")
Posted by: GW at May 11, 2006 3:48 PM
Some astute observations on Gehry, including the MIT building:
http://kunstler.com/eyesore_200405.html
http://kunstler.com/eyesore_200510.html
http://kunstler.com/eyesore_200408.html
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 3:52 PM
Why don't they set the whole thing 50-100 yards back and create a nice big open spece in front. Like a modern piazza like you have them in big european cities. how great is the square in front of the pompidou center in paris? I think pretty damn great. People sit there and look at street entertainers all day long. It gives life to the city. Here there is no room for that. It might create a nice skyline, but at the street level this will be a disaster. Why don't Gehry and Ratner go on a small trip to europe, japan and a few other places and get some ideas and inspiration? (Don't they have a private jet for that?). It should be a no-brainer... Yes it is better than the whole in the ground, yet it is so far from what it could be. What is wrong with asking for greatness!
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 3:59 PM
Personally I don't hate it because it is modern. I would like to see more thoughtful modern designs in the hood. One reason I like the southeast corner of Clinton Hill is that there is more variety in the streetcase. Block after block of brownstones oppress me. That said, this project is completely out of scale with the surrounding neighborhoods. Tens stories? 20? Maybe one or two but 20 buildings taller than that? It really is too much. As far as the PC Richards crack - well of course that is a place holder and needs to be replaced. And there is nothing lovely about the open pit on Atlantic. But how can anyone envision walking up Carlton or South Portland into this?
Posted by: putnam-denizen at May 11, 2006 3:59 PM
Looks like a Trojan Horse
Posted by: Tuna Loaf at May 11, 2006 4:18 PM
Full Disclo: I'm an unrepentent supporter of Nets to Brooklyn whatever it takes.
As for the design, my only regret is that I didn't think to copyright what I left out by the curb last Tuesday night--I could be making a claim for infringement.
Posted by: Pete Jakab at May 11, 2006 4:20 PM
I don't like it but I could get behind it if this was it -- not 1/30th of it.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 4:22 PM
I am not sure if I like it or not; I'd like to see more photos -
Posted by: David at May 11, 2006 4:25 PM
U-G-L-Y, that ain't got no alibi...
Posted by: Ji at May 11, 2006 4:31 PM
While I hate the ugly pre-fab building that currently houses the PC Richards/Modells, I can tell you that I've shopped in both of those stores for things I needed and they are convenient and have a good selection. I for one will be sad to see both of those stores go. (And what's the matter with you folks don't you use sporting goods or need AC?)
My complaint is that Ratner (who brought us the ugly pre-fab Atlantic Terminal) is going to put up a building that will make him the most money. He doesn't care about inflicting uglyness on the surrounding neighborhoods and the presence of Gehry is a salve to all of those who would complain if he brought in his usual cast of characters to design this project.
As for Gehry, I don't like his work. Perhaps I'm just too "Brooklyn" to appreciate his genius, but it just doesn't look like something that is going to stand the test of time. When I look at this I see someone who was not able to get beyond steel and glass boxes and decided to make his statement by getting rid of edges and using something that looks like giant balsa wood construction on the Flatbush Avenue entrance. Its not pretty, its not inventive, and it most definitely is not in keeping with the scale or feel of the area.
Posted by: Oh Lord! at May 11, 2006 4:32 PM
I can see the archeologists digging up brooklyn 500 years from now and scratching their heads while yelling, "WTF?"
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 4:39 PM
It looks more like an architectural design of a first year student. Gehry has designed some amazing buildings but now it seems he's found his gimmick and it's easier to revisit it than do the hard work of coming up with something new that makes sense here.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 4:40 PM
I would love for this part of brooklyn to have an iconic, legendary masterpiece of contemporary architecture to look up to. This stuff is cheesy by 80s standards. That "My building survived an earthquake" look is just too ubiquitous, and cliche'd, by now. Something MORE edgy is what I want. Visionary wouldn't hurt.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 4:56 PM
looks like the bomb already hit it
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 5:06 PM
If it is going to be uber modern, let's go Dubai Space Age a la that Trump tower thing on the palm island project in Dubai. If it is out of context, at least look really interesting...
What's up with the weird scaffolding frame entrance to at the intersection of Atlantic and Flatbush?
Also, I love how there is no traffic. The roads are busier than the photo at 2am, and that is without all of the new buildings and the residents.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 5:09 PM
The more I look at this updated AY design, the more I like it. I think that the actual buildings once constructed will be less "cutting-edge" but still retain a flattering design and shape.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 5:19 PM
What an eyesore. There is no street scape, no open spaces, nothing. Where will people congregate as they go to the game? It will not be practical and will be a disaster. The stadium will not make money.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 5:21 PM
I also like modern design, but just look at the size of that thing! Look at the teeny tiny little cars! This is not Manhattan or Tokyo or Hong Kong. How about a little context?! Also, as others have said, it is totally misleading to show just this one building and completely void of surroundings. It will not be sitting on a black stage, it will be in (utterly dominating) a low-rise cityscape. I just don't see how this is acceptable. The shadow this monstrosity will cast (in every way) will be very, very long.
Posted by: ana at May 11, 2006 5:23 PM
I'm not against AY, but I loathe this. A pox on architects who design ludicrous buildings no human being would want to live/work in. And shed a tear for architecture, which was a great profession before the destructionists and faddists ruined it. Now it's just fraud after fraud pouring a steaming cup of ghastly down our throats and telling us to say "Mmmm" because it's postmodern.
Posted by: BklynJace at May 11, 2006 5:25 PM
Feel sorry for the structural engineer that gets to design this beauty. He/she'll be ecstatic to get the project but will suffer half way through. But I like it.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 5:33 PM
i agree with David at May 11, 2006 03:02 PM
they probably would whine about everything that people try to build that isnt there already.
Posted by: armchair warrior at May 11, 2006 5:36 PM
Ana, there is a picture of the model on Curbed that includes the Williamsburg Bank building, Atlantic Terminal and the new building going up across Flatbush as well as high rises that appear to go down as far as Vanderbilt. (And no, it doesn't get any better)
Posted by: Oh Lord! at May 11, 2006 5:36 PM
Someone, somewhere, could have done better. Modern architecture can be new, edgy and still relate to the surrounding neighborhood. This looks like Howl's Moving Castle. I.M.Pei's addition to the Louvre works, this doesn't. If you plopped the Bilbao museum at AY, it would look better. It really does look like he crumpled up some paper and then called it a design. Blecch!
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 5:41 PM
Good art and architecture elicit reaction in people, whether that reaction be positive or negative. I haven't decided whether I like this design or not, but judging from the readers' comments, it's certainly getting a reaction. There are countless instances of buildings being built that people hate and abhor when they are new. But over time, these buildings become beloved by the populace and thought of as iconic representations of their neighborhood, city, etc. Think of the World Trade Center, and, as someone alluded to earlier, the Centre Pompidou. These were reviled when built but became an integral part of people's perceptions of their urban environments.
Now I'm not saying that Gehry's latest design will, over time garner the same resposnse in people that these other buildings do, but the possibility exists. We should be thankful that the plan doesn't call for a bland, dull, oversized box (like the Atlantic Terminal).
I will reserve judgement for now but am hopeful that what is eventually built is something that we can all be proud of someday.
Posted by: Whitbo at May 11, 2006 5:45 PM
Jesus Christ. He has to be joking. It looks it belongs in a big blue recycling bag. Please make it go away.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 5:47 PM
putnam-denizen,
In short, no. This is not the result of the free market. Bruce Ratner threatened to use the state to steal land from unwilling sellers. Even though I dont believe that eminent domain was used so far, the mere fact that the threat thereof is on the table, it's just as vile, and is de facto coercion.
This is also hardly what I would call unfettered development. Unfettered development would mean that every developer would be equally free to develop their property in any which way they saw fit.
Regardless, in this case, we do not have that equality of development opportunity, and in essense, Mr. Ratner is having his competition stifled by the fact that not everybody else has as easy access to politicians and their pocketbooks to get their projects realized.
Hence, Mr. Ratner does not compete in a level playing field. Had the playing field be level, there would be thousand of alternate and affordable housing units available, leaving Mr. Ratner with empty residential towers.
Under such conditions, he would be more likely get some more public input into his building design before building. But that is not the case, and its the regulations that you guys support that is the main cause for this.
I'm not saying that its impossible that Mr. Ratner would build this in a less-regulated environment, however I doubt that he would ignore the public criticism of the design as he is able to under today's regulated conditions.
Posted by: iceberg at May 11, 2006 5:48 PM
Help meee! I'mmm melting!!!!
Posted by: wicked witch of the west at May 11, 2006 5:48 PM
Ghery has done some good buildings, no matter what L.Krier sucking historicists like Kunstler say, but this - well I imagine this will change a hundred times. Or at least until they actually try producing some engineering documents, and the mobbed up unions here refuse to build it. Or so Ratner will say, then we'll get somemore heinous TRDs (terminally retarded designs) like Ratner's Dumber & Dumber next door, the Atlantic Center/Terminal.
Posted by: Dave at May 11, 2006 6:11 PM
Wow. This is the first time I visited this site. Apparently it's where Brooklynites go to whine.
Is anyone willing to look at both sides of the issue in this development?
Why are people so married to the monoculture of brownstones around here -- basically, the tract housing for the middle class of 100 years ago? I live in one. It's quaint, sure. But it's also dark, the floor tilts, and the windows leak.
Last time I checked, in-fill development was one of the more environmentally benign ways to increase density in urban areas. This one has direct access to a train station. It's as close to an ideal building site as you're going to find. Or is the real issue here that people are against any development at all?
This is an awesome city. People want to move here. Where should they live and pay taxes? Here or in Jersey City? Renting or owning property in the area doesn't give us the right to never have the views change outside our window or keep additional cars off the street just because we got here first.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 6:29 PM
interesting, but a few more photos would be nice. regardless of what is built on the site or who designs it, i'm more concerned with the impact to the neighborhood.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 6:43 PM
I don't think people who love brownstones are so unrealistic as to deny all development. If they do, they're in for a rude awakening. For those of us who don't like Ratner's AY, it's for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the environmental impact which is more than better use of the subway system.
I hope, when all is said and done that Whitbo is right and they will actually build something that works and we can be proud of. But I disagree on one thing- art and architecture are meant to get a reaction, but it doesn't have to be good art to get that. Good architecture is designed with people first in mind and that's something Gehry is not doing. As someone pointed out (I think on Curbed), this is both sculpture and statement, but sculpture and statement do not make a great city. Single Gehry buildings can be amazing- but AY is not one building. It's an ego trip though.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 6:46 PM
Sorry, that sentence should have read:not the least of which is the environmental impact, which involves more than just better use of the subway system.
Posted by: anon 6:46 at May 11, 2006 6:49 PM
Look, in reality we know as little today as we knew yesterday about what will ACTUALLY be built on the site. Ratner himself has said that these plans are still entirely subject to change. And, as many posters have pointed out, the models unveiled today only show us a tiny proportion of the whole development. Whether you are for AY or against it, it's galling to see the continuing lack of transparency in the way this project is being presented to the public. I also think it's highly likely that Gehry will drop out before they break ground because of cost and time constraints imposed by FCR. Is that good or bad? On balance I feel that if the bloody thing is going to be built, then it's probably good if there's a world-class architect designing it.
Posted by: Anon at May 11, 2006 6:54 PM
5:47: I would take it a step further and say that it actually looks like a recycling bag to which you refer, albeit clear plastic, not blue.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 6:56 PM
Another pic with "all" the surrounding buildings.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/11/nyregion/11cnd-yards.html
hp&ex=1147406400&en=cc58e4a89a603aec&ei
=5094&partner=homepage
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 7:39 PM
I guess in terms of environmental impacts, shadows may not be an issue. But what about glare?
Posted by: anon2 at May 11, 2006 8:04 PM
fantastic! everyone hated bilbao guggenheim too and now look. times have to change people. i am a brownstone owner in clinton hill. i don't want to hear heath ledger and michelle williams either. who cares what they think, if they don't like it, sell their house for a loss, they paid too much and move to la.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 8:12 PM
it looks like Ratners ass exploded with a glass housing project
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 8:42 PM
Please Please loose Gehry altogether. Invite Santiago Calatrava. Only he can bring good modern architecture.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 8:44 PM
YES - there are too many whiners on this site! I've been saying that forever.
Meanwhile, OF COURSE bloggers aren't journalists. They're not reporting the news or getting "stories" - they provide a forum for exchange. Frankly, most of the time, bloggers are more like COLUMNISTS in that they tend to use their blogs as a soapbox for their opinions.
As far as the Gehry building looks, I love it. But I agree - the final product won't look like that.
Posted by: Ed at May 11, 2006 8:46 PM
Everyone is bitching about the PC Richards and Modells- Guess who built them? Ratner.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 8:54 PM
It doesn't even look like it is a stable structure.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 10:04 PM
The new buildings other than "Miss Brooklyn" look like projects and will look more like projects as this process moves forward. Anyone who has any experience with Altlantic Center and Atlantic Terminal and the what was promised and what was delivered (thanks for the Chuck E Cheese, Bruce, just what we needed!) knows that this is going to turn out badly. Only the naive or those who will never see this complex in person (David, Anon@6:29, Ed) are for it. Please prove me wrong - is there anyone who lives within 10 blocks of Flatbush and Atlantic that is OK with this and if so why?
Posted by: tommyill at May 11, 2006 10:31 PM
Holy crap. Gehry's design looks just like that mish-mash building that is being built at the corner of Fulton and Classon. Did he design that too? Maybe it's a new design style that will be named, "Brooklyn Deco". Is he just trying to scare us into submission with a really ugly design so that we'll gladly accept whatever design he comes up with that is a little bit better? I prefer the hole in the ground to that.
Posted by: Shahn Andersen at May 11, 2006 10:32 PM
I want the arena built; I want Atlantic Yards built; I want luxury housing; but I also want FCR to dump Gehry! His vision of AY is hideous! I hate it!
Bruce Ratner must be the biggest idiot in the world. He's gong to lose his support with this monstrosity and he has only himself to blame. Here he has a unique opportunity to do something great for Brooklyn and the best he and Gehry can do is this piece of shit?!? If FCR tries to push this down our throats then I'm joining the other side!
Posted by: BrownBomber at May 11, 2006 10:48 PM
Please God, NO!
Posted by: anon at May 11, 2006 10:57 PM
Although I don't love this proposed design, I think it is a lot better than the last one I saw, featured here:
http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2005/09/07/ratner_doubles_his_bid_for_atlantic_yards.php
They may still suck, but at least they're getting better!
Posted by: Anonymous at May 11, 2006 11:22 PM
Marginally better- now they sorta stick straight up, but it's a monstrosity nonetheless.
Welcome to the dark side, oh Brownbomber. Because guess what FCR is going to do? Maybe now the anti-AY people will understand what the DDDB is trying to do- not stop development, but stop the building of that awful eyesore.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 12, 2006 12:06 AM
what shockingly ugly crap!!
it looks like a building after a bomb hit it.
i dont hate modern design ( the "time warner building" at columbus circle is ok)or battery park city
it must be a case of "emperor's new clothes"
Posted by: Anonymous at May 12, 2006 12:38 AM
Well, I guess we know why there weren't any pix of the building in the Atlantic Yards brochure.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 12, 2006 12:56 AM
is it supposed to look like someone sat on it?
Posted by: Jake at May 12, 2006 7:16 AM
It's very space aged. I can't make up my mind whether I like it or not. Part of me thinks it's downright ugly and the other part of me is glad they're trying for something unique.
However, I really think in the end Ratner will put up crap like the Atlantic Center.
Posted by: Pietro at May 12, 2006 8:56 AM
To be fair, this is better than a lot of the dumps that are going to be torn down for this.
I'm sure when this will be done it will be OK. Not a work of art, but something like the Canary Wharf in London.
Posted by: JoshK at May 12, 2006 9:10 AM
Its very interesting to read the Curbed posting board on this topic...it really drives home that there are very different worlds separated by a very small strip of water!!
Posted by: Anonymous at May 12, 2006 9:16 AM
My support for this project comes down to the design. I thought it could be pulled off with the right design, but this just doesn't cut it.
A half-baked design, combined with Ratner's contempt for the local neighborhood and people of Brooklyn, not to mention, the use of eminent domain and secrecy, make this a no deal for me.
Is it too late to stop this thing??
Posted by: Pietro at May 12, 2006 9:25 AM
The fugliest thing I've ever seen. God help Brooklyn. . . .
Does anyone know any more about the proposed monstrosity for the corner of Fourth Avenue and Pacific? Terrifyingly, this one is going to be only two and a half blocks from my home.
Posted by: lro at May 12, 2006 10:24 AM
Shame on any politician that supports this abomination, from Bloomberg to Marty Markowitz to whomever else... this is hideous... Forest City Ratner should not be allowed to develop a newstand!
Posted by: Anonymous at May 12, 2006 10:34 AM
someone above- you're right, why would they pay extra for the building of this structure- you mean the ratner/politicians are all schooled in architecture to justify the extra cost- i mean they were able to build the mall without all the hub-bub. I am curious what they think of it... really. oh frank looks great!
Posted by: Anonymous at May 12, 2006 10:36 AM
Simple Comments
Bruce and Frank got nothing on Moses
Dude who hijacked my neighborhood
Posted by: Real person at May 12, 2006 11:35 AM
We need Santiago Calatrava
Posted by: Anonymous at May 12, 2006 12:50 PM
It's time to let it go, real person. It's been years already and it's not going back. Your neighborhood probably has a lot more to worry about now that fighting the long dead Robert Moses.
Some of the things Moses did stand to this day as visionary. The West side Hwy is still beautiful in the older sections.The BQE is ugly and destroyed neighborhoods but as much as I hate to say so- Brooklyn needs it. The Moses created infrastructure for the entire city- not for one developer and his clientele. Ratner and Gehry don't give a damn about anything but themselves. And for sheer ugliness, Gehry has reached new levels. Robert Moses had nothing on them.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 12, 2006 3:01 PM
it looks like a back ground set from the post apocalyptic "Road Warrior" movie, after everything is blown up. and we have to fight auntie entity .
Posted by: Anonymous at May 13, 2006 3:23 AM
this just makes me want to weep.
Posted by: laura at May 23, 2006 4:42 PM
hjuagetrbvg
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