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April 11, 2006
Fulton Mall: Death By Compromise?
The Pratt Center for Community Development has released its full report--analysis and recommendations--on the Fulton Mall. Here are the five "strategies" the report recommends following. Clearly, they are trying to walk a very fine line balancing all the class and racial sensitivities that are all rolled up in the issue now.
1. Address the physical appearance of the Mall with innovative and culturally sensitive facade improvement (huh? sounds like politically-correct jibberish to us), building conservation and new building design techniques that embrace the aesthetic theme of "old meets new." (We have no idea what this means but it sounds like a recipe for confusion and mediocrity.)
2. Better utilize buildings by activating vacant upper stories and carefully planning a mix of uses that supports the dynamism and diversity of the Mall and makes it more of a 24-hour place. (No quibbles with this one.)
3. Promote and enhance the current retail themes found on the Mall: urban wear, Hip Hop fashion and music, uniquely Brooklyn. (What, no Banana Republic? What about that diversity?)
4. Improve the public realm and enliven the side streets to enhance the experience of shoppers and visitors on Fulton Street, as well as workers and residents to the north and south. (Ah, so this is where they throw the gentrifiers a bone. The only problem is it sounds like they'll have to wade through the penis-engraved tooth caps to get to their precious cafes. Not gonna work in our opinion.)
5. Engage a broad and diverse group of stakeholders in the planning process from this point forward. (We're all just one big happy multi-cultural family!)
Not to sound pessimistic, but, frankly, after all the compromising and balancing of competing interests is done, we'll be thrilled if the landmark architecture is restored and the majority of the fugly signage is scaled back. There's just no way to please everyone when it comes to the mix of ground-floor businesses. In the end, economic and class diversity is much harder to achieve than racial diversity. If the sneaker shops were replaced by African art galleries and hip cuban restaurants, the stroller set would be there in a flash. We don't think the PACD is going to be able to have its cake and eat it too on this one.
Fulton Mall 2006 Report [Pratt Center]
Photo by f. trainer
Comments
This study sounds useless (except for #2). I'd love to see that recommendation implemented, but we'll see. Otherwise, I can see Fulton Mall being the same 30 years from now as it is today.
Then again, if you had told me 15 years ago that there'd be expensive condominiums on Washington and Classon Avenus, I'd have said you were crazy.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 9:19 AM
But if someone had told you there'd be UGLY condos on Classon, would you have believed that?
Posted by: Brownstoner at April 11, 2006 9:30 AM
Why do we get to dictate what the Fulton Mall should look like just because we are richer or more politically connected and vocal than the people who shop over there? I am all for progress and I'm all for enhancement -- but why do we think more lattes are the way to go brownstoner? come on, don't you remember when you were a teenager and you wanted to buy your girlfried something stupid sweet for valentine's day or when you wanted to get that dope set of sneakers your friends all had -- that's what fulton mall is for the people who shop there. lord knows there's already enough places in brooklyn to get a $1k stroller or a $4 muffin.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 9:45 AM
We didn't say this should be all lattes and muffins. We said trying to have lattes co-exist with ten sneaker stores isn't going to work. It's going to have to go one direction or the other.
Posted by: Brownstoner at April 11, 2006 9:51 AM
i don't recall brownstoner saying lattes or muffins- is this what's going to happen again- i walked thru the other day after a day of jury duty... it is a mall in everyway- i saw young people everywhere, a few families- this is a mall and this is mall culture like you'd find at any mall in the country- the last time this was discussed i was hoping for scaled back sinage and better building use and restoration but now i am thinking it is what it is- and it is fine the way it is- although the buildings are wasted here behind sinage and not being used, it is where this mall happened to come to life and in a way now i'd hate to see it change- there is more to downtown that is under utilized and in need of restoration- maybe let the mall be the mall and revitalize some of the more dead parts of brooklyn's downtown in that area.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 10:00 AM
I was a regular shopper in the Fulton, since back when I lived in Clinton Hill (Pratt Dorms) and would shop for bargain shoes and clothing, also fabric and sewing supplies in the fabric stores (which have sadly dwindled in numbers over the years). With my pale gothy/punky completion and mostly black wardrobe, I definitely was sticking out among the Fulton Mall's more ethnic clientele (but hey, what good is it being a college punk if you *don't* stick out ?).
I then moved to Fort Greene and on to Carroll Gardens. When the A&S was turned into a Macy*s the customer service went so down hill, I all but abandoned shopping that Macy*s. But since it was any easy bus or walk to the mall, I still did some shopping in Fulton Mall bargain stores.
I'm now living on edge of Ditmas Park West, so I really don't shop in the Fulton Mall, at this point. But I would like to see the upper floors of those incredible buildings better utilized and the tacky storefronts somehow detackified (or what ever the P.C. term would be). While the end result shouldn't end up like a Disney ye olde street or a Vegas themed venue; restoring the street to some of it's former glory would be great.
As a side note: How bummed was everyone that the Gage and Tollner was turned into a TGI Friday? Sure I only ate there on a few special occasions, but a TGIF, that's just wrong. http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/brooklynfulton/gage.html
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 10:13 AM
I thought point #2 is a good idea.
As for the rest, especially point number 3, to promote and enhance the "urban hip/hop" theme of the Fulton Mall essentially means keep it the same, with some unclear goals regarding the tacky facades being improved. This doesn't promote diversity or cater to the majority of the people (of all races) that live in the neighborhoods adjacent to downton Brooklyn. I don't want an entire downtown of Connecticut Muffin shops, but at the same time, I do not want an entire downtown of hip hop shops and cell phone stores. A mix is good and would serve everyone.
I'm not an advocate of any sort of forced change (with the exception of rules regarding signing on the buildings), I think market forces will work best in this case, though I do think making the area attractive to new development (residential and commercial), while preserving the old architecture where appropriate, is a good idea. I do agree the area needs to at least be cleaned up from a visual point of view (landmarking buildings, removal of signage etc.). It would be great if it was a 24/7 destination with a mix of residential and various commercial businesses (not just hip hop/urban gear).
Posted by: lp at April 11, 2006 10:32 AM
What's the difference between urban wear and hip-hop fashion?
Posted by: Whito at April 11, 2006 10:35 AM
I am so tired of the culture of entitlement in america - it runs through all classes and races, except recent immigrants who bust their balls to make a living. 9:45AM whines about why should richer and more vocal and more politically connected people have more say than xyz and the richer, etc.. complain about why they have to pay the taxes they do...listen: in order for a society to work, everyone has to pitch in and have a stake. the richer have to pay their share of taxes and those "stuck" in the ghetto (or mall) get off it already and organize and educate. don't complain if people use their connections or voices to ask for change. if you don't feel like you're getting your fair share then organize, vote, stop glorifying lifestyles that lead nowhere - you do that and you will be ignored. you become an important voter, a tax payer, you get to weigh in on what happens on the mall. everyone feels like they're owed something and over and over again the people who move beyond that kind of thinking are the ones who actually accomplish something - that goes for black AND white, rich and poor. If I (an immigrant of color) have made some money and feel that I have a stake in my neighborhood and I would like the Fulton mall to be more physically appealing and offer greater selection, then I can use my voice to ask for this. I can see a balance, if only everyone stops viewing the existing and the potential as mutually exclusive. it's like it can only be Hi or Lo, not Hi-Lo.
Posted by: ugh at April 11, 2006 10:35 AM
And yes, it is a real shame that Gage and Tollner is gone. I think that is a prime example of what Brownstoner said in response to point #4. If an area is generally made unattractive as a desitination for those who would like to frequent more upscale shops and restaurants, and such upscale places will not get the traffic they need and be forced to close.
Good grief though, TGIF in the old Gage and Tollner's space. I think the old Gage and Tollner antique light were replaced with those stained glass TGIF lamps too. Uggh.
Posted by: lp at April 11, 2006 10:37 AM
Ugh,
While we don't take issue with your statements of personal responsibility, we are skeptical that the coexistence of "hi-lo" is possible in an isolated environment like the Fulton Mall.
Posted by: Brownstoner at April 11, 2006 10:41 AM
To those who want the Mall to stay the same as it is in terms of the stores, do you have any issues with facade improvements, removal of ugly signage, harsher fines for store owners (and shoppers) who litter or don't clean up their sidewalk? I don't think that would be controversial and would make it a nicer place for everyone. What do others think?
Posted by: lp at April 11, 2006 10:42 AM
Brownstoner, you might be right on that point at 10.41am, unfortunately...
Posted by: lp at April 11, 2006 10:47 AM
i love the sneaker stores, what gives with so many of you on this blog? everyone loves "black" culture, but doesn't want to be exposed to it? you root for the knicks--who are the players, you love tiger woods, you love jazz, the blues (where did rock come from), baseball players, football players, muhammed ali? yet when you are exposed to the "signage" all of the "faces" on fulton mall, you are so ready to CHANGE it all? what's wrong with this city, and country?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 10:50 AM
What does "signage" have to do with African-American culture? That's a pretty paranoid conclusion.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 11:01 AM
Recommendations are fine, but until there is a financial incentive for the property owners/retailers to change, it will not happen.
I understand that rents and gross/sq ft on Fulton Mall are among the highest in NYC. Landlords are making a fortune renting to sneaker and cell-phone stores. Unless they can be convinced that they will make more renting to someone else, they will not. The store owners think that the facades and signs are what work for them.
Where is the incentive to change?
I have lived and worked in the area for 15 years. The Mall did not change one iota since the opening of MetroTech and there has been little movement on the sidestreets, either.
It will be interesting to see what impact the conversion of the Verizon building to residential will have. Will they be able to sell? Will the new (presumably) higher income residents be able to demand better retai?
Posted by: bored at work at April 11, 2006 11:03 AM
Haven't been into new TGIF - but I think interior of Gage&Tolner was landmarked - so should still be nice.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 11:04 AM
Instead of mumbling about putting in a boutique hotel in the Bklyn Jail building, why not have a boutique hotel in the upper floors of one of the bigger Fulton Mall buildings (or break thru several floors of adjoining buildings). If this was done at the end of the mall closest to Borough Hall, I'm sure the hotel would be booked 24/7.
And the rest of the mall building upper floors a combo of: moderate income rental units, a day care center, affordable artist work/living space, affordable rehersal space for theater and dance groups.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 11:08 AM
Anon at 10.50am, your anger at the idea of removing tacky signs is what I was asking about in my 10.42am post. No one said anything about "faces". Do you equate restoring the old grand streetscape of Fulton Mall (i.e. removing ugly signage) with being anti-black? I don't get it.
Also, I'm not sure I'd equate sneaker stores and cell phone outlets with black culture.
Posted by: lp at April 11, 2006 11:09 AM
This is why we think it's more about class/economics/education than race. It just so happens that in Brownstone Brooklyn the majority of the poorer people are black so that these divisions can seem to line up along racial lines. We know plenty of black people who do not identify with the current retail mix at the Fulton Mall. We can't speak for them, but we'd bet they'd think it was insulting to assume that they do.
Posted by: Brownstoner at April 11, 2006 11:22 AM
I essentially agree with bored at work. (love the name) There is no reason for the merchants currently in the mall to change what they are doing, or how it looks. Since they must be able to pay the high rents, they must be doing just fine. The ones who don't close up and are replaced by others. That is capitalism at its best, who is anyone to mess with it?
That's not to say that I like how it looks, or that I don't wonder how all those stores that sell basically all the same merchandise all manage to make money, but I guess they do.
I agree, as I said on the last contentious thread on this subject, that the upper floors should be opened up to business - especially the kinds of businesses that could flourish in a central location such as the mall, but don't necessarily depend on street traffic: dentists, medical, law, architects, accountants, graphic arts, etc.
As for Gage and Tollner, they did everything short of move the building, in order to bring people in. They had private valet parking, great chefs, and other incentives. The fact that the upscale clientel that should have flocked there did not, was not G &T's fault. (which no one said it was) I find it sad that the upscale crowd gave it a lot of lip service, but didn't actually show up. For God's sake, even at its worst, it's not like one was going to get killed getting from their car to the restaurant. Upscale people let it die, not the lower classes. The interior is landmarked, and TGIF is doing a pretty good job with the place. They stepped up to the plate, and I say good on them.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at April 11, 2006 11:27 AM
A lot of times on this site people complain about neighborhoods gentrifying and Starbucks, et al., pushing out the 99 cents stores or what have you. Others reply -- in my opinion correctly -- that if Starbucks is what t he market is supporting, then Starbucks is what should be there.
Well, Fulton is the flip side of that. You have a thriving set of businesses there, which pay the landlords handsomely. They may be downmarket or cheesy or whatever term you want to use to diminish them, but the market is supporting them. I think it's no more fair, or wise, for exogenous groups to force out thriving businesses -- even thriving penis-tooth-cap businesses -- any more than it would be to artificially prevent a Starbucks from displacing a mom-and-pop store.
Free market cuts both ways, folks.
Posted by: Crimea River at April 11, 2006 11:30 AM
Mr. B, we should revisit at some future point the fugly twin towers on Classon and Fulton. What's happening there? It appears that construction has stopped for two months or so. Any reason?
Posted by: BrownBomber at April 11, 2006 11:32 AM
I'm not for forcing businesses to change either. I'm more interested in making the area more visually attractive (i.e. removing tacking signage and preserving old buildings). The only opposition to this I could imagine is that those who like the mall as is could view this as making the area attractive to people who do not shop there now. For those who want to maintain the status quo, I think there is resistance to any change that may make the Mall a destination that could attract a different set of people and potentially lead to changes in the stores. Just my guess, I could be wrong.
Posted by: lp at April 11, 2006 11:38 AM
Come on, I can't believe that all Afro-Americans that are shopping for hip hop clothing and music, ethnic hair care products/wigs and having their nails done; are only comfortable doing so in a Mall that has been ghettoized by down-market stores with tacky signage and lack of retail and restaurants to draw a more diverse group of shoppers. By railing against aesthetic upgrades to the existing stores (no one is advocating kicking them out an installing *all* generic suburban chain mall stores in their place) then your saying that Afro-Americans don't want improvements and perfer to remain ghettoized?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 11:40 AM
Although the Pratt report made some good points I have to agree with Brownstoner- it's a mess. It sounds very vague and touchy-feely. Maybe there is nothing to really do except open up the upper floors, restore the facades and improve the look of the streets, but otherwise let the market evolve as it will. Stores that succeed or fail based on their own merits. It's already a success as a retail area- that's been said. The Theme idea sounds atrocious- like the Brooklyn Theme Park. You see a great mix of up and down-scale all over Manhattan and they do fine. With all the offices and residences coming to downtown Brooklyn, changes will naturally follow.
Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at April 11, 2006 11:42 AM
BrownBomber - That Classon and Fulton building gets uglier by the day. A real shame. It looks like design on the fly, with random ornaments added here and there. Really sad. Bite my tongue, but I'd prefer a plain Fedder's box to that place.
Posted by: lp at April 11, 2006 11:44 AM
as a person of color, I must say I'm not a big fan of Fulton Mall but in a weird way I appreciate it for what it is. I know if I want a bargain on a JayZ/Notorious BIG shirt or bootleg DVDs I have a place to go. I think if I were 15 I'd love that area but the selection just doesn't speak to me. however, if there were muffin shops there, I'd definitely never go there. I agree that the selection should be more diverse along the lines of more stores like Express or Gap or whatever stores are in real malls but I don't think it needs to change either. I'll be the first to admit that I'd rather it be the way it is now than to have it bumbarded with the stroller set for $9 lattes as we have enough of those places already. Brownstoner makes a good point in that it may not be possible to do both because that would mean that hip hop kids and stroller pushing yuppies will have to shop together and I just can't see that happening.
Posted by: stuy blkbuttrflie. at April 11, 2006 11:46 AM
I'll throw another grenade into this discussion: How did it evolve that non-American-born Middle-Eastern and Asian entrepreneurs seem to dominate the shopkeeper class for urban black retail (which I, with non-PC abandon, abbreviate as "Sneaker-Beeper-Gold," an actual sign I've observed in such 'malls')? Is it possible that an overly narrow cultural view of urban black retail appetites has limited the potential--and the appeal--of areas like Fulton Mall and Jamaica, Queens? I simply do not believe that even poor black folks would not like a decent sit-down diner after a day of hard shopping, for example. Or a place with nice muffins--maybe $2.75 ones instead of $4 ones, and good regular coffee instead of latte. (It was, in fact,big and welcome news when such a place--run, if memory serves, by a black Caribbean entrepreneur--opened to serve the myriad shoppers of a similar strip in Jamaica.) I'm a house-poor white person who shops at Cookies for my kid's clothes, and I wonder like hell why we poor people of any color can't have less crappy retail environs in which to lighten our paltry pocketbooks. There is a place for "Sneaker-Beeper-Gold"...some of us, apparently, need all three on the same shopping trip...but it's a jump to presume that 3-story cellphone store signs and stinky hot-dog stands are there because Black Folks Love'Em. Maybe we need more enlightened retailers catering to black folks (and the rest of us with working-class wallets but aspirations to Shopping Dignity). Maybe--gasp--we need AFRICAN-AMERICAN ENTREPRENEURS to show that "urban" doesn't have to be a euphemism for "dangerous," "crappy," or "junk/fast foody." I'll be the first white girl on line!
(What's the point of being a Black Conservative trapped in a white chick's body if you can't stir the pot a little?)
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at April 11, 2006 11:47 AM
Is it true that there are only a small handful of landlords on Fulton Mall who each own dozens of buildings? Where are the property owners in this discussion?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 12:01 PM
they don't have time to discuss their business in a blog they're at the bank depositing checks from their profitable penis engraved gold plated fronts, stop snitchin and snowman shirts.
Posted by: stuy blkbuttrflie. at April 11, 2006 12:03 PM
The Pratt Report's own survey of Fulton Mall Shoppers ( 310 people, 58% Black, 10% white) indicated that approx 85% of the shoppers wanted some "fix up" of the Mall buildings and 71% wanted the Mall "improved" and only 17% wanted it to remain as is. Considering these findings I dont know why these threads always disolve into discussion of class/race and leave it alone vs. change it - it seems that it is near universal that people (Mall shoppers and non-shoppers alike) want change - the only real question is what to do.
Posted by: David at April 11, 2006 12:13 PM
I agree with Brenda from Flatbush and many of the other posters. I suspect that the people who shop at the Fulton Mall are more focused on the perceived bargains than the aesthetic details of the actual mall-experience. But I believe that, if polled, the majority would welcome an improved shopping experience. And if they had a chance to weigh in I suspect that they would agree with many of the 'beautification' proposals put forward here.
Let's improve the signage, improve trash collection, add more security guards, add park benches, flowers, trees, etc.
I think this would also be a great place to establish a 'night-life' hotspot - restaurants, bars, night-clubs, lounges, galleries (on the side streets), live bands/musicians, etc.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 12:16 PM
I like the nightlife idea...
Posted by: lp at April 11, 2006 12:20 PM
Also, what about the idea of creating shopping emporiums (e.g., a jewelry emporium, a sneaker emporium, cell-phone emporium, etc). That way shoppers go to one destination to get their desired product.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 12:20 PM
i grew up around 86th street on the upper east side. about 15 years ago, it was all german stores -- bakeries, pharmacies, etc. then it became all p.c. richards, there was an hmv (now circuit city), barnes and noble, etc. it's a gross outlet of all the big box stores. but it's here to stay, that's for sure. there are people who DO love that stuff, and truthfully it was a great convenience. a few years ago when i still lived there, i tried to get together a group of people to protest the new starbucks that opened on york ave. no takers, not even the people who worked at the independent coffee store, orens. they actually felt that the starbucks would raise their popularity as people felt a sort of moral obligation to buy their coffee.
this is to say that these kinds of places exist because people want them. no coffee shop selling lattes, except a starbucks, could survive fulton mall because of the PRICE OF RENT, which people seem to be forgetting. the dude who sells the penis engraved stuff is paying some serious rent for that privilege. the cute stores that open in "gentrifying" neighborhoods open and thrive because the rent is low. expect more coffee shops on vanderbilt or washington than on hoyt and fulton.
Posted by: now in brooklyn at April 11, 2006 12:21 PM
FYI - Starbucks does VERY well in Parkchester (Bronx) with a demographic very similar to the Fulton Mall demographic shopper outlined in the Pratt survey
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 12:50 PM
As an uptight white woman I find penis-engraved gold teeth culturally insensitive.
Posted by: Amy at April 11, 2006 12:53 PM
There used to be a fun movie theatre in the fulton mall area. the kind of place you went to hear what the audience had to say in response to the show. But I think because it was the only place open at night then it felt (and perhaps was?) kind of dangerous. The neighbors stopped Ratner from putting in a movie theatre years ago when he was building the Atlantic Center. So I'm guessing this isn't much of an option anymore. Also there's a church in the old Fulton Theatre.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 1:00 PM
Humbly submitted: In five years, none of us will recognize Fulton Street.
AT&T Building, Board of Ed. building, Williamsburgh Bank Building, all converting to residential. Together with new towers on Flatbush Ave, and new condo residents on Boerum Place and State Street, nearly 1000 units of "luxury" housing will be online in a couple years. New office buildings going up will dump hundreds of office workers in downtown brooklyn during the day.
All this development surrounds Fulton Street. It will evolve as the demographics change.
Posted by: chuck at April 11, 2006 1:22 PM
I like the idea of a theatre. Maybe an off-broadway or dinner theatre or comedy club.
They should also improve the lighting after dark in the Fulton Mall. The area seems bleak, deserted and dangerous after dark. Maybe add lights to some of the trees.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 1:22 PM
i think the mall is pretty vibrant and healthy the way it is, and i agree that merchants have no incentive to change what they're doing. that said, isn't there talk of making willoughby an extension of the pedestrian area, all the way up to adams street? that might be a nice place for a strip with a slightly different vibe-- more of a coffee shop/restaurant/national retail chain/boutique area that would attract different groups to the greater mix. that stip, unlike fulton, is pretty depressing and run-down currently, even though it gets tons of foot traffic.
Posted by: anon at April 11, 2006 1:35 PM
UGH, great post. I concur wholeheartedly. You want a voice, then stand up and be heard. Personally, I'd like to see the mall turned into the Mall at Short Hills or something like Boston's Faneuil Hall Mall. IMHO, Brooklyn would be better served if the area was strictly comprised of high end dept stores, shops and restaurants. It would be a welcomed addition to the "New Brooklyn" though many of us are too afraid to come out and voice such a politically incorrect opinion.
Brooklyn has enough urban wear specialty stores on Broadway and Pitkins, Flatbush and Church Avenues. This is not an underserved market by any stretch of the imagination. What we don't have is an ultra high end shopping district. Why should we have to leave our borough and travel to Manhattan or the suburbs to engage in fine shopping? On the cuisine end we're making great strides, e.g., Smith St., 5th Ave and Dekalb, but we're seriously lacking on the shopping front. There's enough money concentrated in Downtown Brooklyn to support such a luxury shop development. Further, the size and location of Fulton Mall is ideal - at the Gateway to Brooklyn. In time market forces will turn this into such a mall and it will be, nostalgia aside, for the better.
If we can support the condemnation of people's homes and business at AY then we can certainly condemn the blight at FM. Why the double standard? It's permissible to take from the rich and give to the richer but inconvenience the poor and all hell breaks out!!
Posted by: BrownBomber at April 11, 2006 1:39 PM
BrownBomber, might a high end shopping district not be better sited on Montague Street? Why the need to take a shopping area that clearly does not cater to the demographic you are talking about and change it, when you have a district that does cater to that demo and is currently being overrun by real estate agents?
I think that the "blight" of the mall comes from the appearance of the stores that are there and not the stores or the clientelle themselves. Change the appearance of the stores and then let the market forces go to work.
BTW, in addition to the movie theatre on Fulton Street, there was the old Duffield (sp?) Theatre which survived until the early eightys. Its now the home of the Brooklyn USA store. Theatres were once a vibrant part of the mall, but when landlords started getting heat for shootings and drug use, they shut them down. I think you'll have the same problem trying to build a new theatre in the area. If it is designed to appeal to a broad cross section of folks it will work (just look at the success of the Court Street theatre). If it is going to appeal only to current mall shoppers or the wall streeters buying up these million dolar properties from PH, PS, BH, CG, etc. (the two ends of the current Brooklyn spectrum) it will be doomed to failure.
Posted by: Oh Lord! at April 11, 2006 1:59 PM
Fulton Mall doesn't even have to be luxury shopping to attract more shoppers. What FM needs is decent, varied shopping...good housewares; middle-of-the road (ok, maybe even some higher-end) apparel; a book store (dare I say B&N), a stationary/office supply store, maybe a Linens & Things-type store where you can buy sheets, towels, etc. (Never mind Macy's, it's a lost cause unless there's some shake-up at Federated management.) Where-oh-where are the Woolworth's & Lamston's variety stores where you could run in and buy a spool of sewing thread or other kind of household necessity? More restaurants would lure nearby Metrotech workers out of their cubicles and eventually other workers who will move into future office buildings. The mall should feature retail that attracts not only people from afar, young and old, but also nearby residents who, as a previous poster said, usually go to Manhattan to shop. I don't think any such improvements would be considered racist or not-PC. Keep the sneaker/cellphone/electronics stores if you must, but the truth is everyone should have a decent and varied shopping experience in downtown Brooklyn, the way it used to be when there were several department stores all catering to different clientele...A&S, Martin's, Korvette's, May's, as well as smaller, independent stores. Why should we Brooklynites have to go to Manhattan or even NJ to shop when there's all this prime retail real estate just sitting at Fulton Street waiting to be fully utilized. FM has tremendous potential, and it's a shame that a paralysis seems to have taken over as people struggle with what to do about it.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 2:03 PM
why are these urbanists so stalinist in their desire to tell everyone what to do, what kind of door to have on your home and what kind of sign these stores can have? I mean are you that bored? Do you have lives? Worry about what you are doing unless it hurts your quality of life. There are enough yuppie stores, let the people who have been in Brooklyn when you were in Ohio or Long Island have Fulton Mall
Posted by: Umar at April 11, 2006 2:24 PM
I agree with Brownstoner, the High End and Low End are diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive and have absolutely no chance at co-existence. It's a zero sum proposition. Either you stick to the status quo or you radically change the mall to target a more well heeled demographic group/clientele. You can't have both and be successful. The high end shopper will stick out like a sore thumb (regardless of race) and after a few horrific incidents, e.g., muggings, assaults, etc., these shoppers will abandon this futile urban experiment and hightail it back to Manhattan and the suburbs to do their shopping. IMHO, Fulton Mall is critical to the Downtown Brooklyn Development Plan and the future prospects of the borough. As it presently exist, FM is a problem and it has the be changed. The $1mm question is how?
Posted by: BrownBomber at April 11, 2006 2:32 PM
But that's the point Umar, the people who shop at the FM were polled and the 'majority' were in favor of a facelift for the mall. So it seems that the only ones who want the mall to remain the way it is are the property owners and the merchants. It has nothing to do with race, religion, yuppie, urbanists, ohio or long island.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 2:35 PM
There *was* a Woolworth's in the Fulton Mall years ago when there were such things as Woolworth's. (sigh, Target's and Kmart's just are not the same as the five and dime :(
There is already a large B&N on Court Street not far from Borough Hall, that strip also has a Starbuck's and the multiplex theater. All of these are with in a two minutes walk from the upper end of the FM, so don't think that they need to be repeated in FM.
Linens 'n' Things? Aren't are a whole passel of linen and house wear stores in the FM ? But since we're tossing out suggestions how about a Bed Bath and Beyond. After all, cheap poly blend sheets that pill up and have to be tossed in a year, are really not a bargain compared to cotton sheets that will last you for years. And often I find that BB and B actually has the lowest prices on some home electronics.
And how about other discount stores like: Century 21, Filenes's, Daffy's ? Still in keeping with the bargain shopping feel of the FM, but with great appeal to the Borough Hall lunch shoppers.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 2:39 PM
Anon 2:39, that's precisely what I mean (I'm Anon 2:03). (Linens & Things was the wrong example, I believe it's Laytner's Linens which is in the city.) I could see another B&N on Fulton for the office crowd, and it doesn't have to be at the western end of Fulton and so close to the Court St store, it could be closer to the Flatbush end. There are three B&N stores in midtown Manhattan within 8 blocks of each other, and they're always full of people. There are enough people flocking to Fulton Mall to keep a new B&N in business. BB& Beyond? Sure! It's the best housewares store in the city for variety, price, depth of inventory. If you can't find what you want there, forget it, it probably doesn't exist. I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I go to BB&B on 6th Ave & 18th, I see all kinds of people shopping there. As I said, shopping on Fulton Mall doesn't need to be "luxury." It needs to fill a void and a demand for useful, every day merchandise which it now sorely lacks. Also, I don't think, Umar, we're being stalinist in expressing a desire to have a good shopping area in our backyard. After all, it once existed on Fulton, and it wasn't stalinist at all...quite the contrary.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 3:24 PM
i don't know- it seems like a tall order- should we do the same on canal street?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 3:37 PM
Anon @ 2:03 the Pratt study actually suggested H&M.
But in the end I dont think it is Govt responsibility to try to pick stores for a shopping area - however it is within Govt jurisdiction to create guidelines/zoning for sinage and overall land use, and it seems like everyone would benefit from requiring signage more consistent with a shopping district in the middle of your cities (boros) central residential/buisness district. As well as offering incentive to open up the upper floors for much need housing. That being said, given the success of the current mall, neither of these changes should have a negative effect on the current merchants, nor should it result in LL not renewing current tenant leases b/c generally LL dont care who is paying $150 a sq ft, as long as it is paid.
Posted by: David at April 11, 2006 3:44 PM
Hmmm, very interesting this time around, and much more civil. The only way more upscale stores will enter Fulton Mall is if large, rich companies such as H&M, Barnes and Noble, the Gap, etc come first. The rents are so high, most smaller boutiquey businesses will not be able to sustain the overhead, unless they have deep pockets. I don't think landlords are going to kick out sucessful, established businesses, nor should they, just because some upscale shopaholic in Clinton Hill needs a fix. Let's face it, money makes the world run, and the piles of money spent in the Mall, just the way it is, is just fine for the landlords, and their tenants. I don't think it's a good precident to start dictating to the market.
Fulton Mall works because it is serviced by all of the subways lines, and all of the bus lines. While you may be able to get the same merchandise on Church Ave, or anywhere else, those places are not as accessible to people as downtown.
Downtown always catered to the working classes, not the upper classes. The stores may have had more acceptable names: A & S, May's, McCrory's, Wertheimer's - that was only 20 years ago. The children of the shoppers then still shop on Fulton Street. It's not all sneakers and gold. The Children's Place, Macy's, Conway's, Lane Bryant, etc sell to all income levels, races and ages. If new stores come in and compete, great. Let the marketplace sort itself out by itself.
Upscale shoppers have the whole world, literally, to shop in. So it's inconvenient to the swells in the surrounding nabes, too bad. It's a lot easier for them to go to Manhattan, where most work anyway, and shop, or to go out to Short Hills, or anywhere else. Money has pushed the common person out of what was once the hood, now it's trying to push them out of the only large shopping district easily accessible by public transportation. Enough already.
By all means, clean it up, open up the upper floors, invite large anchor chains to invest in Bklyn in the Fulton Mall, establish guideline suggestions (good luck on that one) for signage, but other than that, let it evolve, as it has been evolving, let the marketplace decide, let's not legislate everything to death.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at April 11, 2006 4:34 PM
CHP - Fulton Street and stores like A&S were not working class stores when they opened. It has become that way over time. Also, if, as you say, the "common person" has been pushed out of "the hood", why should the places where they want to shop still be in "the hood" in which most of them do not live? I'm not for pushing the cheap stores out, market forces will do that if it is viable, I just don't follow your reasoning re the "common people" argument.
I do agree that we can't legislate what shops should be there though.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 4:49 PM
One of the things missing from the consideration of the impact of demographic shifts in the neighborhoods surrounding the mall on the retail mix is the fact that, thanks to the City Department of Transportation's bone-headed street designs, the mall is an island. I lived until recently in Ft. Greene and then in Carroll Gardens and used to go out of my way to avoid walking or biking to/through the mall because the street crossings were so unpleasant (namely, Flatbush and Adams); I always felt safe walking _in_ the mall, just never _to and from_ the mall. I suspect that, if the City DOT bothered to redesign the streets that connect all of these neighborhoods (from Red Hook to Bed Stuy), more people from the neighborhoods around the mall would visit it (and the neighborhoods on the other sides), thus creating more demand for a wider variety of stores. Try pushing a stroller or walking your grandmother from Ft. Greene park to the Brooklyn Heights Promenade--it's ridiculous!
In short, though Fulton Mall is doing very well, it's also missing a lot of potential walking dollars from local residents.
Posted by: Anon at April 11, 2006 4:50 PM
That design was intentional. Ghettoized shopping imo.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 4:52 PM
CHP, I'm Anon 2:03 and 3:24. I'm precisely the child of the Fulton St shoppers of 20-30-40 years ago (and I used to work part-time at A&S and McCrory's after dismissal from St. Joseph's High School just around the corner on Willoughy & Lawrence Sts in the early 70s), but I refuse to go to Macy's because their merchandise has become garbage, and customer service is indifferent if non-existent. There was a time when my parents could go to Fulton Street and find a variety of quality merchandise that fit their budget...and my parents were the immigrant/working/middle class of the 50s & 60s, by no means wealthy by any stretch. It's a shame that type merchandise mix no longer exists. If it did, Fulton Mall, IMHO, would attract even more shoppers (I'm not even talking about the swells) and would rake in really big bucks. This is not a longing for an age gone by -- there's a huge market out there that isn't being served. Nevertheless, I do think that over time, Fulton Mall's retail mix will change, as change is inevitable, but it's a long way off, so we middle-of-the road people will have to continue spending our money in Manhattan and New Jersey.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 5:08 PM
Era of big fashionable department stores is long over and ones that remain are struggling.
Today only bigger stores opening are Target (already at Atlantic Center) and
WalMart and I think most people here would prefer Sneaker shops to that opening.
Collection of upscale shops are in solely upscale areas (which this is not) or touristy (southstreet seaport,
midtown manhattan).
But I would have as much use for the schlock that is there now as for Talbots, Abercrombie, Banana Rep, muffin stores, etc.
( I do still go to Modells)
or the like.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 5:23 PM
I say keep the design of the mall the way it is but make it an island of a different sort, i.e., one that caters exclusively to the surrounding affluent communities. There's a strong need for high end dept stores, shops and restaurants in the area. While you're at it, throw in some fine galleries and entertainment options too. We should strive to make FM something that the entire borough could be proud of, not just a select few. Trust me, given the vast materialism in society today and need to be at the "it spot", folks of all races will find reason to shop and entertain in the new mall. It will happen and it will be the free market and not the government that brings it to fruition.
And for those who will invariably argue that Brooklyn high end shoppers are already served well then I ask you where? Take a look at Brooklyn Heights, the most affluent nabe in Brooklyn. What does it have? A Banana Republic on Montague Street? That's pathetic.
And please don't offer 7th Avenue, Park Slope as an example, I'm talking Tiffany's, Cartier, Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom's, Saks, Apple, Bose, Crate & Barrel, Pottery Barn, Restoration Hardware, Williams-Sonoma, Chanel, Coach, Cole-Haan, Fendi, Gucci, Louis Vuitton, Tumi, Abercrombie & Fitch, Brooks Brothers, Burberry, Hugo Boss, Armani Exchange, D&G, Guess, J Crew, Ralph Lauren, Caswell-Massey, Crabtree & Evelyn, Ann Taylor, bebe, Max Studio, Victoria Secrets, Jimmy Choo, Sephora, etc.
There is high demand for these goods and services and right now it does not exist in our great borough. The current mix of goods at FM can be found a dime a dozen throughout the borough but for those who are accustomed to more high end offerings, there are no such options. In my book, Brooklyn already offers the "common man" many choices. What about the other end of the spectrum? I spend $2mm plus on a house and you are telling me that I have no choice but to drive 2 hours plus round trip to Short Hills or Westchester to shop?!? Granted Manhattan is closer but for serious shopping you need a car, parking is a beyeatch, and you have to hit multiple locations just to experience a broad spectrum of vendors. IMHO, Brooklyn can't become the first rate city we so desperately want it to be while offering a second rate shopping experience to its residence.
Posted by: BrownBomber at April 11, 2006 5:40 PM
"residents"
Posted by: BrownBomber at April 11, 2006 5:44 PM
Would I like a better mix at the Mall, yes, of course. I go down there to shop at Conways for cheap one season summer clothes and towels. I used to love Parade of Shoes, now gone, for cheap summer shoes, and I still shop at Lane Bryant because I'm not a stick insect. I used to buy a lot of fabrics on Bridge St. but most of the shops are gone now, and were replaced by sucky dollar stores. But I know where to get my fabrics in Manhattan, I can get cheap shoes everywhere. I rarely go to Macy's because it really is a disgrace, but I don't shop in Macy's in the city that much either. Point being that I, like most of us, know where to get what I need. Some of it may be local, some of it involves some travel.
I don't think it matters that people don't live near the mall anymore, to answer the common man remark. Most people of any income group, except perhaps the super rich off Madison Ave, don't really live too close to where they shop. Look at most shopping areas in this city. Most SoHo shoppers don't even live in NYC, people come to 34th St from all over, same with people shopping at Century 21, or even Target. The fact is that Fulton Mall, for good or ill, has morphed into what it is, for the shopping pleasure now consisting mostly of people who take all forms of public transportation to get there, or work in all of the civil servant jobs in the area. I don't think it should me made to stay that way for all time,it should go with market forces, but I don't think it should be made to change to cater to the more affluent who happen to be in walking distance.
If one wanted a more upscale shopping area, the strip along Court Street on the other side of Atlantic Ave seems perfect - you have attractive storefronts, restaurants, etc. But then we always hear of people complaining that those stores are not patronized either. What are you going to do? People have to support small business, especially retail business, or they can't survive, no matter where they are.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at April 11, 2006 5:55 PM
That's right CHP, no wealthy people live on 5th Ave or Madison Ave and shop in Bergdorf or Cartier. ? ;)
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 6:10 PM
the difference between urban wear and hip hop wear is that hip hop wear consists of: ecko, rocawear, fubu, baby phat, and the like.
urban wear is more along the lines of ben sherman, triple five soul, fred perry, etc. i'd liken it to boutique clothing. bathing ape?
but i wouldn't expect the pratt group to know the difference.
Posted by: ltjbukem at April 11, 2006 6:32 PM
god i havent been to that place since the 80's man brings me back nightmares.
Posted by: armchair warrior at April 11, 2006 6:35 PM
ltjbukem - lmao. Who cares. Also, i don't think this is the Pratt group, whatever that is supposed to be. Your description of the those clothes just sounds like different types of teenager apparel worn by teenagers and adults who act like teenagers.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 6:45 PM
Aw, come one anon 6:10, the point wasn't meant to be literal. And you prove my point - even the rich have to travel to shop, albeit not very far.
BrownBomber, that's some shopping list. After paying higher and higher real estate and renovation prices, who has that much left for high end shopping? :)
If a street like Montague St, in the heart of the most posh area of Bklyn, can't support more high end businesses, how can you expect The Mall at Fulton Junction, (my name) to do the same? If a Pottery Barn, Wm Sonoma, or some of the other places you mentioned were here, I see them trying Montague or Court Street in Carroll Garden first, and I'd be there for them. ABC Carpet, one of the coolest (and overpriced) stores around tried a DUMBO annex, surely in an upscale area, and it closed. Maybe location and inaccessibility helped kill them, but shouldn't the money in the area have kept them alive? My point being that being around an upscale population doesn't mean a business can succeed.
Somehow a super duper high end mall sitting where Fulton Mall is now, surrounded by the rest of downtown and the surrounding area reminds me of being at a resort in Haiti - vacationing in spendour surrounded by abject poverty. I'd never go there, and I certainly wouldn't want to see it here.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at April 11, 2006 6:55 PM
Actually CHP, what is out of place is Fulton Mall and the state of downtown. With the exception of the projects, Fulton Mall does not cater to the community and make Brooklyn look like a sh*thole to anyone who comes to downtown Brooklyn but doesn't know about the surrounding beautiful neighborhoods. it will change, I just hope all the new residential towers etc. speed up those changes (as long as landmark quality buildings are preserved in the process).
If you think we should settle for the dump that Fulton mall now is, that's your perogative. Low expectations can be your choice if you wish I suppose.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 7:02 PM
Anon 7:02, your remarks are so insulting on so many levels, I won't even bother to go head to head with you, it's like talking to bricks. You know nothing about my expectations, let alone the population that shops on Fulton Street. It isn't just for the people in the projects. You obviously haven't been reading what I, and others have been saying about change to the mall. If people think Bklyn is a sh*thole from seeing the mall, then they are missing out on what makes Brooklyn tick, and they need to get back on their tour bus. I've been in the mall and have seen packs of tourists having a good time. They know, unlike yourself, that the New York experience is more than an bland upscale Disneyland.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at April 11, 2006 7:15 PM
I wonder how much time some of the people who support a hi-end shopping mall on Fulton have actually spent there? I've spent a lot of time there and it is not the urban nightmare some people want to label it. If it wasn't successful, in terms of retail, I could see taking agressive action- but some posters here are far beyond the realm of reality. For years Fulton Mall simply catered to the people who shopped there. And why not? The mix of stores reflected that- and attempts at changing or making it upscale never worked because it was always half-assed. Especially the "renovation." But as David said, it isn't the government's responsibility. And his idea on how to improve Fulton Mall makes the most sense. That said, Brooklyn doesn't owe it to anyone to provide a Tiffanys or a Saks or a hi-end shopping experience- I don't care how much you spend on your house.
Like CHP I also think a better mix would be great, and it will definitely happen. I myself don't believe hi- and lo-end are diametrically opposed. What I have seen is that hi-end elitist shoppers seem to think the "common man" is out to get them and it's only a matter of time. I never had anything bad happen in all the years I shopped in Fulton Mall. And I was one of maybe 3 or 4 white faces down there for a long time. I used to go to the old movie theater all the time too (when you had to keep your feet up on the chair in front of you because the rats ran under the seats). Some posters here make it sound like the wild west- it wasn't.
By all means fix up the mall area- and open up the upper levels for business or residential- but why destroy businesses that are successful? That makes no economic sense. Nor does it make sense to complain about businesses that simply met the market demand. If residents of Brooklyn Heights had bothered to bring their business to Fulton Mall, there would be a better mix today. Instead they went to COurt and to Montague. As little as 5 years ago Court St. was still a less than stellar business strip. Now look at it- I watched it evolve from the 80's when walking down Court St. after dark was a scary proposition. But as the neighborhoods around the Heights became more upscale, Court St. upscaled to meet the market.
By all means, fix up, renovate, and open up new spaces in Fulton Mall- then let the market do the rest. If the elitists want Tiffany's let them prove they'll support one before we go kicking out businesses that sell penis engraved gold tooth covers.
Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at April 11, 2006 7:41 PM
Well said CHP! You go girl! (female, right?- if not, er...sorry. You go guy!) (:>
Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at April 11, 2006 7:44 PM
Looking for dates online again, Bx2Bklyn? (:>
Actually it's interesting what some of us consider to be a sh*thole (e.g., the fulton mall). I remember taking a friend from buenos aires to harlem a couple years back. He seemed a bit apprehensive about the trip, you know, after all the stories he'd heard and read about harlem in the media. We went to some of the rough spots and he commented that it was hardly a ghetto. I guess he was expecting to see chickens running loose, straw huts piled on top of each other, gunmen hiding out behind abandoned cars, etc. He actually thought it looked like a nice residential community.
The fulton mall is not the best shopping experience but I agree with CHP that there's no sense in bringing upscale boutiques to the area if the wealthy locals are not going to support it.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 11, 2006 7:59 PM
I'm of the female persuasion, B2B, shopping at Lane Bryant is not the ideal drag queen paradise.
I was thinking about this on the train home, and I think the best examples of mixed income shopping may be East 86th Street, and the "new" 14th Street. Both have high income neighborhoods surrounding it, and both have both higher and lower strata stores. The people who shop there go to where they can afford, and walk past the places they aren't interested in. I bet many here would be surprised at how much the two groups find themselves in the same stores.
If higher end stores take a lease in the mall and succeed, more power to them. If a place like Jimmy Jazz survives, more power to them too. Let's clean the place up, and then let the dollars fall where they may.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at April 11, 2006 8:36 PM
I'm having trouble downloading the Pratt report (though I skimmed it earlier). So maybe I'm missing some of the analysis and "backstory"...
I'm wondering - why preserve Fulton Mall at all? I thought pedestrian-only malls were a "failed" 70's style urban planning experiment. FM feels like an unmoored island in the middle of Downtown Brooklyn and surrounding neighborhoods. Maybe the grid should be restored, along with vehicular traffic. It should be integrated better with the rest of "Downtown Brooklyn" - which (I lived in CG for 20 years) has always been a complete mystery to me. Even if you don't work or have some specific reason to be there it shouldn't be so utterly unintelligible and confusing. Also (as someone else commented) create pedestrian-friendly connections with the residential neighborhood "spokes."
The idea of a 24/7 neighborhood in Downtown Brooklyn makes sense to me - but integrated throughout the entire downtown (a la the imagineering going on for Lower Manhattan).
Posted by: carla at April 11, 2006 9:08 PM
By far the most important thing -- more important than whether it's a sneaker outlet or a muffin shop -- is to reveal and restore the historical commercial character of the buildings, and to set some signage standards. So much of downtown Brooklyn's architectural past is gone forever, that what lies beneath today's cheap, boardwalk style facades is nothing short of civic treasure (find one of Brian Merlis's photography books on old Brooklyn and just see what's under there). Let the market decide on use, but let's all support reclaimation of an aesthetic that the world will never again produce.
Posted by: Rascal at April 11, 2006 11:36 PM
(:-0 outed again!! anon 7:59.And here I thought I was being soooo subtle.
Sorry CHP- forgot about the times you posted shopping in Lane Bryant. Who knew? I mean- you could have been shopping for a wife or be a trannie.Ya never know!
Someone pointed out the biggest obstacle they felt was the crossing over Adams/Boerum Place. I think that is a good point- It's big, cars race through there like they're on a drag strip and the light changes so fast. Being stuck on the median is scary too. I was always crossing there as I lived on Schermerhorn between Boerum and Court and it's a pretty intimidating roadway.
Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at April 11, 2006 11:49 PM
If it was decided that the signage had to be removed, or at least reduced, and/or done in an architecturally sympathetic manner, who gets to dictate that, or inforce it?
I'm all for it, and agree that those gorgeous buildings have been hidden for years, but practically speaking, how would this be done? I can hear some of the landlords and some of the merchants howling about added costs and infringements on business and property already.
What agency would have the pull and the authority and means to back it up, especially since they've been allowing that kind of signage since at least the 1980's?
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at April 12, 2006 12:48 AM
I have seen so many overseas travellers having a great time shopping on Fulton Mall over the years. I happen to even like the loud signage and all of that. Why does time have to stand still or architectural correctness have to conform to some disney-ification of it. Sure if I owned a bldg down there I'd like to think I'd be the one restoring it to its former glory. But I wouldn't want some govt entity to make me do it. I happened in to the TGIF at the old Gage & Tollner's over the weekend and it was really, really packed. At first I was outraged and then I figured heck at least everybody is enjoying themselves and these folks probably wouldn't have seen the place in the G & T days anyway so what did it matter anyway? TGIF obviously has a place in this country of ours so why not see it shoehorned in to a landmark? That's the beauty of Fulton Mall when you think about it.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 12, 2006 12:58 AM
wow. that's a load of commenting to digest.
i started writing a comment to respond to what i read and i can't pull it all together. maybe it's cause it's late, maybe i'm just scatterbrained.
but simply:
facade restoration can be very positive and merchants aren't necessarily as opposed to is as you might think. just give a little incentive (e.g. national register listing which could lead to tax credits, as recommended in the study)
crownheightsproud--your posts are right-on.
now, here's what i started writing before i burned out:
first off: full disclosure, i am a pratt grad student in hist.pres. but pratt center is actually a separate entity.
second off: i'm dismayed by brownstoner's pessimism and condescending comments. sure there's some vagueness (in particular the 'old and new' bit) but there's a lot of information and ideas IN the report (not just the summarized strategies).
i also don't think pratt center was trying to figure out how to make fulton mall more appealing to the "gentrifiers". the report is actually more trying to figure out what and how to preserve fulton mall. the architecture is the main thing, but also the culture of the mall. the report emphasizes (through surveys and ethnographic study) the value the mall has for the african-american community in brooklyn. brooklyn does NOT need to replace commercial centers that have importance to a particular community (be it african-american, italian, polish, etc.) with a facsimile of the fucking mall at short hills. it's a real shame you have to drive two hours out there bbomber when you could shop at some of the same stores in manhattan and ride the, gasp, subway. i know it may not be productive to say this, but frankly, your posts are ridiculous.
so many of the commenters are looking at fulton mall for what THEY want there, not necessarily what it needs. from an ECONOMIC sense, it actually doesn't need to change. according to the fulton mall website, it is the 3rd largest commercial district in NYC (thus likely in the country given NYC's prominence). its sales also "top $1,200/square foot in the majority of retail locations."
so the issue really boils down to who fulton mall should be serving? the people who shop there frequently and have made it successful or the people who live in the wealthier nearby neighborhoods (these groups aren't mutually exclusive either)?
The Fulton Street Mall area is New York City's 3rd largest commercial center
Posted by: arsenal at April 12, 2006 1:42 AM
chp-
the fulton street improvement association (FSIA) already has a facade improvement program "which aims to assist businesses in designing and funding more shopper-friendly signage, awnings and security gates."(from their site) the FSIA can also get money from the city or state for renovation/restoration.
here's what the pratt report says:
Next Steps:
Address building conditions with new
design guidelines and/or a
“conservation district” overly using the area’s existing Special District provision.
Model façade improvements that take
creative and culturally sensitive approach to signage, storefront design,
façade maintenance.
Identify soft sites for redevelopment
by private initiatives and model types
of new designs that would be desirable.
Create financial incentives to reward
compliance with design guidelines.
Explore creating a revenue stream by
allowing billboards on certain buildings; a portion of the proceeds would go into a fund for use by those who comply with guidelines.
Assist property owners in taking out
façade easements for a preservation
purpose; explore use of easements to
restore interior ground floor stairs.
Create a National Register Historic District or individual listings. The listing will not require regulation for private development, and offers a 20% tax credit for restorative alterations of commercial properties approved by the State Historic Preservation Office.
Explore partnerships with social service organizations that provide financial assistance to immigrant business owners: ACCION, Bed Stuy Restoration, AAFE.
In the absence of new guidelines,
work with Department of Buildings
and other agencies to ensure enforcement of existing regulations is more rigorous.
so yes, there's a lot that can be done.
the last one is especially noteworthy. many of the signs are probably illegal but just not enforced (DOB doesn't care so much; LPC yes, but as we know it ain't landmarked). on 34th st. they offered owners a deal: we'll give you 1 year to change your illegal awning AND we'll even help you remove it (no charge). if you don't, you'll get fined by the DOB. it worked.
now the signage on most of fulton is more than just an awning, but the same principles apply.
one more thing: some of the garish signage might actually be appealing in a garish way, like times square. we have to be careful not to sanitize the signage too much.
Posted by: arsenal at April 12, 2006 2:02 AM
Arsenel, who died and made you boss? I'm entitled to my own opinion. I'm born and raised in Brooklyn. Own numerous properties in the borough and probably pay more in city taxes than you earn in a year. I'm a stakeholder so save the BS for someone else!!
Furthermore, I'm all for the signage restrictions, facade improvements, mall restoration, and building preservation, I just think that the mall is, to quote Anon above, "a sh*t hole". If you don't share my opinion that's your prerogative. I simply stated my preference for a strictly high end shopping district. With that being said, there's absolutely no reason to insult other posters who don't share your views.
Why can't people contribute their own ideas to discussions without feeling pressured to conform to the narrow ideology of the politically correct left? Arsenel, you don't want to read views that are different from yours or views that you deem to be "ridiculous" then stop reading this blog or go out and create your own!
Posted by: BrownBomber at April 12, 2006 9:04 AM
You rule arsenal! and Brownbomber- who cares how many properties you own or how much taxes you pay. You'r an elitist snob and you're proud of it. There were better ways of stating your preferences than the condescending, obnoxious style you espouse. As for the politically correct left- ah, so you must be a proud neocon Bush supporter. Yes- you guys have done just a stellar job with the country. I think it's funny that you of all people find arsenal to be insulting. You do such a bang-up job yourself.
Posted by: the common man at April 12, 2006 9:47 AM
The last thing I want in Brooklyn is a mall filled with the same brand names as any other mall in america. Please don't encourage Fulton Mall to become another part of generic America (Generica). I think Forest City Ratner will bring national retailers to his project because it's the only way big projects like that get done. At Fulton mall we can nurture and enhance what's there. Let's have a mix like we have now but with a more attractive feel to it so the area can evolve to serve its customers. If that happens, more stores that appeal to neighbors will move in. While $1200 per sq foot of sales is great, but what about the lost rental income from the upper floors? Property owners can do much better here and planning can help. I also agree with the poster who said to restore the grid. Why leave this as a bus mall anyway?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 12, 2006 10:03 AM
There you go. I've been outed. I'm an elitist, conservative, Republican, snob.... Down with the man. Power to the people.....yadayadayadayada.....
Posted by: BrownBomber at April 12, 2006 10:22 AM
shoe fits bb.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 12, 2006 10:46 AM
Arsenal, thanks for the kind words, and the detailed information about the signage, as well as info on signage in other parts of the city. That was great. As much as I love the Victorian and Art Deco buildings of the area, and want as much of them to shine as is possible, I would hate for the area to be some kind of overpreserved Disneyland Main Street. Some funky signage, as well as other evidence of the vibrant life of the area definitely needs to be there. Everything evolves, there has to be a happy medium.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at April 12, 2006 10:46 AM
CHP, you're a rock star (same goes to you brownstoner). Arsenal rocks. I'm also down with da BrownBomber.
That's the beauty of brooklyn. We cuss and fight; but in the end I believe we are all actually contributing something positive/constructive. It shows that Brooklynites are opinionated, care about what happens outside their doorsteps and are making a difference.
We have a forum where different 'voices' are heard and considered. More importantly, the power brokers are listening and paying close attention.
I really think we can make this socio-cultural diversity/fusion thing work.
Who cares if the real estate market tanks. It's great being part of this community even though we make each other see red at times. It definitely pays to have a sense of humor, though.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 12, 2006 10:53 AM
Carla, at first I thought your suggestion was great - but upon further reflection I may have changed my own mind, it is the absence of cars that allows the busses to move through there quickly and if people drove (all converging on the place) it would probably be pure gridlock, making bus transportation difficult. In addition the fact that no cars are allowed has a psychological effect discouraging driving and favoring mass transit. While allowing car traffic would bring the "mall" more into the downtown street grid, no car zones are actually gaining alot of popularity in Europe and so despite its 1970's roots the no car rules may have advantage.
Posted by: David at April 12, 2006 11:01 AM
Weren't they going to put big box stores in the area around Lowe's/Pathmark in Gowanus?
You know, you can easily walk through the mall without being confronted with penis-engraved gold teeth.
Like some other posters, I wonder why they are not looking for national brand stores on Montague St. or on Court St. There is plenty of not-so-hot retail there too, and more rich people live close by.
Posted by: Roberta at April 12, 2006 11:11 AM
I live 2 blocks from the mall and either walk by it or through it to and from the subway everyday. If i had my choice I'd bulldoze the whole damn street (figuratively). The stores are tacky, the store owners do not keep their properties clean. There's litter everywhere. I don't need to hear people screaming out free cell phone offers (does anyone not have a cell phone anymore?) You can't sell sneakers and sweep the sidewalk? You can't have a coffee shop mixed in with starter cap shops? Coffee comes from south america. that's pretty ethnic. I moved to Brooklyn because of its diversity. But the fact is that the current Fulton Mall is an eyesore.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 12, 2006 11:37 AM
Nice post Anon 10:53. I agree with much of the above. I just think that Brooklyn doesn't need to play second fiddle to Manhattan on any level. In this regard, it would be nice to have a high end shopping district, i.e., our own SoHo, 5th Ave or Madison Ave. I don't think that such a desire makes you an elitist but to each his own. It's only a matter time before it happens whether it's at FM or somewhere else in Brooklyn. The free market will make the necessary provisions to better align the available good and service mix with the changing demographics of Downtown Brooklyn.
Posted by: BrownBomber at April 12, 2006 11:43 AM
Montague is a weird retail street - the properties are often configured badly for retail (step ups, step downs etc...), they are often small and major renovation is not possible given the historic district - additionally the Court crowd brings in huge crowds at lunch which results in overall high rents, but doesnt translate for many retail stores that cant due the volume per sq ft that a restaurant can. Which is also the reason that most of the restaurants stink, since they must gear toward a high volume lunch crowd (to pay rent) vs. a more quality dinner oriented restaurant.
Posted by: David at April 12, 2006 11:48 AM
The navy yard, brooklyn bridge park or areas of red hook that's off the waterfront would make better venues for upscale shopping with park and river views. It would make a great 'boardwalk'. But you know how that goes, the majority of the waterfront is taken up with industrial uses.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 12, 2006 11:50 AM
it burns me up how
the privileged delusional people of this country
consistently use language, commissioned studies and brute legislative force
to continually cut minorities and working class Americans
off from their fair share of the American pie.
Because people in power don't want to share.
They prefer to steal, denigrate, lie, shuck and jive
but sharing is not a part of their American life
unless of course,
terrorists attack and then
we are all one big scared country of brotherhood.
Share the sacrifice but none of the spoils.
BOLLOCKS, I SAY!
Posted by: So Tired of the BS at April 12, 2006 12:06 PM
Thank you Chairman Mao
Posted by: Anonymous at April 12, 2006 12:14 PM
and I've lived in brooklyn on and off for the last 10 years (Cobble Hill, Ft. Greene and Boerum Hill)
and I've noticed that over the years,
there are a lot of choices when it comes to shopping if you don't want to go to the Fulton Mall.
Court St.
Montague Street and its environs
(now) Smith Street
(I lived at Smith & Wyckoff when it was decidedly unhip)
(now) Atlantic Avenue (again I lived there when it was mostly bail bondsmen and antiques stores -- now it's a totally different story)
Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Avenues
THERE ARE A MYRIAD OF CHOICES FOR PEOPLE who for the most part can spend $200 -$400 on a pair of jeans! Or go out to eat every night. Or can afford a nanny for their child. Or take a sabbatical because they are lucky like that.
do you have to have FULTON MALL, TOO?
Posted by: So Tired of the BS at April 12, 2006 12:18 PM
America is the land of opportunity. The reason why some fail to take advantage of this opportunity is because it's often disguised as hard work.
Posted by: BrownBomber at April 12, 2006 12:25 PM
So Tired - fret not, despite brownbomber and others stated desires, no one is "taking" the FM; and given the high rents and low vacancies, the LLs arent selling it either. The article (and most of the posts) reference evolutionary changes that could make the mall better for ALL.
Posted by: David at April 12, 2006 1:02 PM
;-) lol!
Posted by: BrownBomber at April 12, 2006 1:13 PM
Excuse me BB- how would you know what hard work is? You need to stop looking down your nose at people with less money. You are what's wrong with urban redevelopment- selfish, short-sighted and yes, elitist.
Posted by: the common man at April 12, 2006 1:17 PM
David- is there any alternative when it comes to the atreet grid? Truthfully I never saw FM as a real walking mall- it's not the buses, but there is still quite a bit of traffic going up and down,so it never had the mall/park feeling. I think though that traffic would be a bad idea in that area. Iremember what it used to be like and I'm sure it will add to logjams if the street is reopened.
Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at April 12, 2006 1:20 PM
Fulton Mall has a real problem with the width of the street and the bus traffic. From what I have heard this is the main reason for the redevelopment. I think it's great. The bus shelters are big ugly behemoths and all the street lamps are old and barely functioning. I hope it's done right.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 12, 2006 1:42 PM
Excuse me, Common Man. I'm not looking down on anyone. I'm just not a bleeding heart, excuse making, scapegoating, politically correct liberal. Thank God!
All I said is that people with less money have nearby options and people with more money should have some too. What's wrong with that? Why is it the end of the world? Did I violate some unwritten code? What ever happened to free speech? FM is indeed death by compromise and without revolutionary change it will continue to be the armpit of Downtown Brooklyn. I'm not alone in this viewpoint.
Posted by: BrownBomber at April 12, 2006 1:45 PM
I dont know - It is generally considered the 'ideal' pedestrian enviroment when you have a street wall reletively close to the street (no big plazas- ala 1980 manhattan) - w/ street parking which insulates pedestrians from the moving traffic and creates a "pedestrian zone". In a way I feel like this is sort of missing at FM. FM does have an odd feel to it, sort of empty - and seperate even when it is crowded - although I have to say it was worse when the streets were bricked (with similar brick to the sidewalks).
In the end I think if you just encouraged (or forced) approprite signage and opened up the upper floors for residential and/or offices you'd solve 99% of peoples issues w/ FM - and all groups (current shoppers, nearby office workers and local residents) would end up being better served
Posted by: David at April 12, 2006 1:48 PM
Yes- and thank the lord I am. And damn proud of it. And maybe you should go back and read your posts- you hardly put things so civilly. By the way the only people doing scapgoating are those like you. ANd most liberals take responsibility for their actions (Bush is a perfect prez for you.)
Posted by: the common man at April 12, 2006 1:50 PM
Brownbomber, I think if you reread your posts you'll understand. You say htings with an air of entitlement and it puts people off. There are a lot of people who want to do things with FM now that big buildings are coming. But don't forget- the demographics of the Heights was always hi-end, and they never went to FM. The changing demographics have nothing to do with servicing the Heights and everything to do with the huge projects that are going up. But FM is still smack in the middle of a mix of neighborhoods and demographics- why should only one part of that, who never showed much interest before, be allowed to dictate who should be served now? The evolutionary approach is the best one and I am in agreement with David (don't faint David! (:-> ) that the area should serve a mix. I would never want to see Brooklyn become Manhattan. But I would love to see Brooklyn be the best Brooklyn it can be, in all its glorious mixed reality.
Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at April 12, 2006 2:16 PM
No. I think that people just expect conformity and when they don't get it they get defensive and angry. But that's neither here nor there. Let's move on. Look on the bright side, I bought Bx2Bklyn and David together!! Now that's a feat for the ages!
Posted by: BrownBomber at April 12, 2006 2:28 PM
While it would be nice (really nice) for things in this world to get fixed just because someone higher up says so, it doesn't happen in the real world.
Anon 11:37 is correct in that some of the stores on Fulton St pay lip service only to the concept of sweeping and cleaning their pieces of sidewalk and the interior of their stores. The same holds true in many of the stores in my nabe of Crown Heights/Bed Stuy. Many store owners don't give a flying fahootie about their customers or their comfort, as long as they buy their goods, and many customers don't care what the store looks like as long as they can get what they want cheap. It's a viscious cycle, and it won't change until customers tell the merchants that they will no longer shop in a rathole, and then boycott the store until it is fixed up.
I don't shop in nasty stores and I have told merchants that I will not be coming back until things change, but I am just one of a few, and I'm sure they laugh at me, or curse at me, as the case may be, as the next 30 people come in with their wallets open.
The people making demands and then withholding custom is the only universal language here. Util that happens, nothing much will change.
My desire to allow the mall natural change does NOT mean I like everything the way it is. Much does need to be done.
Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at April 12, 2006 2:47 PM
Thank you Brown bomber! (:0>
Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at April 12, 2006 4:18 PM
CHP - dont feel bad about CH and BS or FM; the lack of sweeping/cleaning extends to (as described above) high end 5th Avenue; I have often said the garbage blows up the street like tumbleweeds in Arizonia.
BTW - nice to hear that Bx2Bklyn and I are on the same page here...
Posted by: David at April 12, 2006 4:48 PM
wow, bbomber, i didn't realize that my disagreeing with you meant that you weren't entitled to your opinion. thanks for giving me so much power i didn't know i had. as a later poster noted, this is what makes brooklyn, and america, great: differing opinions in a healthy debate.
that said, i still think you're wrong.
you do probably pay more in property taxes than i make in a year. congratulations. but we're all stakeholders. and the people who shop on fulton mall are certainly bigger stakeholders in fulton mall than those of us (myself included) who pontificate on a blog about it.
ok, on to some other thoughts in response to more recent comments:
i think one reason high-end retail won't move into montague/court is the retail space size. most of the stores are just too small for big chain retailers. i suppose a smaller fashion boutique (perhaps marc jabobs as he has on bleecker) could squeeze in but many of these places have sq.ft. minimums that brooklyn heights just doesn't have.
the pedestrian mall aspect of FM is indeed troubling. ped malls are generally a bad idea, but i do wonder whether opening it to traffic would actually help or hinder it. the street could be widened, but that would greatly alter the streetscape. narrower sidewalks would lead to more crowding (bad) but less vendors (good?). it also would probably cut down on the social space the sidewalks allow (bad). that said, streetscape improvements would really help--historic lampposts; new bus shelters; etc.
traffic also could potentially be just terrible there. if there was a real grid throughout downtown brooklyn (i.e. no cadman plaza--not that i'm advocating that), then perhaps it would work better, but i think the congestion would get funnelled down fulton that now gets spread around. the bus routes complicate things further.
CHP (thanks for the shoutout btw)--you're right about the disneyfied historicism that could happen. i hope that whatever plan they implement (or propose) avoids some of these pitfalls. funky signage should definitely (and, if pratt center is involved it probably will) be encouraged.
Posted by: arsenal at April 12, 2006 5:05 PM
I wonder if undoing the pedestrian mall design (the sidewalks were widened in the early 1980s) would help force the "revitalization" (hate that jargon!) of desolate adjacent side streets. Vendors and shoppers might in effect spill over into these areas.
The Pratt report had an interesting finding that property owners lease out some of the ground floor spaces to numerous vendors, who are often multi-ethnic within a single groundfloor storefront. (The commercial equivalent of subdividing a one-family house and packing in the tenants!) It's a way for the vendors to start a business that's more stable than a sidewalk table (plus it doesn't clutter the sidewalk), and more affordable than their own exclusive storefront.
It's like FM is a victim of its own success. The vendors have an economic foot in the door and shoppers find the merchandise (e.g., ethnic and/or bargain rate). The biggest winners may be the property owners who get more, per square foot than if they leased to one tenant. Thus they tear out staircases to create more ground-floor retail. Will they thus resist efforts to revitalize upstairs floors, if it impinges on the ground floor gravy train?
It makes me wonder if, since there's a need for multi-vendor venues - could a space be created to house them, some kind of collective? It's "destination retail" so it needs to be someplace that's convenient to subway and bus lines. But does it necessarily have to be FM itself?
Just musing here...
Posted by: carla at April 12, 2006 5:49 PM
There are plenty of big stores. There were even more but most of them were broken up as the old dinosaur stores closed over the years. If the landlords are making plenty of money this way, they have no incentive to change.
On the other hand, if they could make money by renting the upstairs, they might be persuaded to sacrifice some of the ground floor square footage and put the steps back.
However, I don't see that happening. The same people who used to tell me that you took your life into your hands to walk on Fulton St. in Clinton Hill when I moved here in 1989 (which of course was not true!) will say that they wouldn't want to live/work in an area where there is a major market for gold penis teeth (also not true).
The city could start with baby steps: enforcing litter laws, collecting sales tax, enforcing signage rules.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 12, 2006 6:45 PM
David- does this mean we're engaged? Well Brownbomber- get yourself a dress girl! You're maid of honor! :0) Nice to have some humor- we get soo intense sometimes, but it's fun anyway and I love the back and forth of ideas.
Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at April 12, 2006 7:16 PM
Arsenal, no sweat. Water under the bridge. Like Bx2Bklyn stated, "we get soo intense sometimes." Although some of us may differ in opinion, the one constant is that we are passionate and unconditionally committed to Brooklyn. The exchange of ideas and positions is very healthy.
Posted by: BrownBomber at April 12, 2006 8:13 PM
Would anyone who lives in the surrounding area (Brooklyn Heights, Fort Greene, et. al.) like to share their views about the Fulton Mall, whether positive or negative, with a reporter? I'm looking for people to speak "on the record" (basically, you tell me your real name and neighborhood) for a story I am working on on the mall. Email jesseorosco@gmail.com if interested
Posted by: Anonymous at July 9, 2006 10:40 PM
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