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April 24, 2006
Cobble Hill, a Little Slice of Heaven, Gets Hotter
Several paragraphs into Jeff Van Dam's love letter to Cobble Hill come some market data points that, frankly, surprised us a little. Guess we haven't been paying close enough attention. In addition to the 13-footer that recently sold for $1.75 million, it was news to us that townhouses south of Atlantic have been going into contract north of $4 million. Can anyone point us to some concrete examples? The article also made much ado about P.S. 29, a prekindergarten-through-fifth-grade program that ranks among the best in the city. There must be some readers out there whose kids go, or have gone, there. We'd love to hear your take on it.
A Timeless Neighborhood Grows More Popular [NY Times]
Comments
Hey B'stoner - did you notice that your name was used as a term in the article?
"A new influx of brownstoners turned up in the 50's, and the Cobble Hill Historic District was established in 1969."
Alert William Safire!
Posted by: Whitbo at April 24, 2006 10:15 AM
The 3.8 to 4.3 million range stunned me as well. I am not sure 2.8 to 3.3 million would have been accurate either (if there was a typo in the numbers).
The bit about PS 29 is more or less accurate, based on the recent pre-school search for my 4 year old. We were told there were not enough spaces for those who were zoned.
Posted by: crouchback at April 24, 2006 10:15 AM
the pictured house is a double duplex on the market for 2.7m. They had an open house this weekend, not very many showed up.
The problem with this example IMO is half your money is dead earning rent in the bottom two floors (other problems apart from the obvious advantages include no garden and just a 50 foot lot).
As anyone doing the math knows, being an investor in a "hot" brownstone market (if you had to buy the brownstone in a finished state and compete with potential owners), sucks. 50% of your equity here is earning a paltry return after expenses etc.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 10:22 AM
P.S. 29 is considered one of the best schools in Brooklyn and has been for a number of years. I have heard many educators say it is comparable to P.S. 321 without the overcrowding issue.
I applaud Brownstoner for bringing up these issues to discuss, since I have noticed that most new people in Brooklyn, really don't much about Brooklyn outside of their immediate area. These discussions help to enlighten us all about all the other great neighborhoods around Brookyln.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 10:34 AM
I assume crouchback was applying for pre-k. schools are not required to take all zoned students for pre-k, but for k and beyond they are.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 10:37 AM
Not surprised. When we were looking we found prices for a lot of places ran just as high or higher in Cobble HIll as Brooklyn Heights. PS29 is a huge draw. It's a terrific school and everyone loves it. It is true that as of last year, they no longer have enough spots for all pre-K zoned kids who want to go, but the city does not guarantee a pre-K spot in any city school. You're still okay for k-5.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 10:37 AM
I was referring to pre-k. Apart from 261 (which is also competitive), we found one overlooked alternative in PS 38. The principal is making a real effort to attract a broader range of students. I understand they will have a French after-school program for native and non-native speakers in the Fall and there is a push from local parents to have French language instruction a part of the regular curriculum. They also have a gifted program beginning in Kindergarten. (Having said the above, I can hear the anti-elitists gnashing their teeth in the background.)
Posted by: crouchback at April 24, 2006 10:51 AM
French?
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 10:55 AM
Here we go...
Posted by: crouchback at April 24, 2006 10:56 AM
Are public schools required to enroll zoned kids in K thru 5? I am unclear if they are required or if it is at the individual schools discretion (based on how crowded it is). "Inside Schools" says they are not.
http://www.insideschools.org/st/ST_register.php
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 11:00 AM
apart from schools, I find cobble hill a pleasure vs (say) park slope because
a) you have an alternative to the F train if you are prepared to walk a bit more
b) you almost never hear sirens from fire trucks or ambulances. People must die often in park slope and there must be raging fires constantly because the fire trucks and private ambulances are chasing down the avenues and streets blaring klaxons that are better designed for clearing times square, several times each day, 365 days a year.
c) you are forced to walk thru gowanus to get to 5th avenue, gowanus has its own cool now
d) court st rocks and the remaining italians at CG make the neighborhood that much more interesting than PS.
e) you can get to columbia street easily
f) it is flat, not sloped
g) the streets are quiet and tree lined
h) the architecture is more interesting than brownstone upon brownstone
i) you can get a yellow taxi on clinton st any time day or night
j) cobble hill park is small but perfectly formed
k) street parking is easier than park slope (odd but true)
on the minus side vs park slope:
there is no prospect park.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 11:01 AM
I'm all for French, but when more than 50% of your students are testing below level III and IV in math and reading, you're not ready. My opinion.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 11:28 AM
PS 29 has been on par with PS 321 for many years. Many families from Brooklyn Heights sought variances to send their kids there and it was not uncommon for parents to lie about their address to attend the school. A few years ago, the Dept. of Ed. made a concerted effort to put resources into neighboring schools (PS 58 and PS 8) to convince parents to stay within their zone and take some of the pressure off of 29 -- which pretty much worked and both those schools now keep a much greater proportion of zoned families than previously. I believe PS 38 will be the next beneficiary of such a policy -- improve the school and keep more families from seeking variances elsewhere. But PS 29 still remains the "destination" school (at least in terms of real estate buying decisions) although PS 58's test scores are nearly on par with 29's .
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 12:20 PM
How sad that an elementary school where 25% of its students don't meet the (minimum) STANDARD in math and English is considered a "success" by the NYTimes and a "huge draw" and "one of the best schools in Brooklyn" by readers of this blog. Some of our schools are much better than others, but how can we define this as a "success?" And the lower rate of standard achievement in the middle school just shows the increasing progression of failure, not success.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 12:22 PM
who deens math?
I wook at a spore and i hab a good money.
math aint impotent, aight?
Posted by: byatch1 at April 24, 2006 12:36 PM
I hate to say this, but it's true - a school can have 25% of its kids failing math or whatever, and still have a nucleus of super bright kids who are learning and achieving at a very high level. If you want all the kids to be brilliant as yours, enroll in a school with a gifted program (there are many out there, particularly in district 22). Yes many schools are awful, but others have a lot to offer, despite having a sizable number of kids enrolled who are not intellectually gifted. You can't just look at tests scores. You have to go in to the school and see if it is working for some of the kids, potentially kids like your own. Often the high achieving, motivated kids are given a lot of perks by these schools and your kids will benefit greatly. I'm not saying this is how public schools should be in brooklyn or anywhere - where's our money, Pataki??? But - if you can't afford private and want to live in Brooklyn you have to be smart about the system. Lots of people out there make it work for them. I'm not mentioning where I live, but the school here is a mixed bag - some really smart kids with high achieving parents, also lots of low income kids... .Mixed test scores, steadily improving, etc.... Yet the vast majority of my neighbors who have gone the public route here have seen there kids accepted to Stuyvesant, Midwood, etc... and then go on to prestigious private as well as public universities.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 1:12 PM
Whitbo, "brownstoner" is not a new term....
Posted by: ana at April 24, 2006 1:46 PM
Another reason Cobble Hill is popular? It's almost as white as Brooklyn Heights. Which matters to certain well-heeled Manhattan emigres.
Posted by: Anon at April 24, 2006 1:56 PM
Another reason Cobble Hill is popular? It's as white as Brooklyn Heights. Which matters to certain well-heeled Manhattan emigres.
Posted by: Anon at April 24, 2006 1:56 PM
Ditto for PS 29.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 2:02 PM
There is some truth to what anon at 1:56 has stated but it does not completely explain PS 29 as most of the "well-heeled Manhattan emigres" and BH denizens tend to favor Packer, Brooklyn Friends and St Annes over their local PS.
Posted by: crouchback at April 24, 2006 3:08 PM
Anon 1:56, geez, isn't that like saying Bed Stuy's as black as East New York?
Posted by: moose at April 24, 2006 3:17 PM
Re: anons 1:56 and 2:02. Cobble Hill is pretty white, it's true, but not so PS 29, where my daughter goes. One of the things we love best about the school is it's diversity. Kids of every color and creed there, not to mention every type of family. The principle works hard to encourage inclusivity, and the district stretches over to the other side of BQE, where there is some moderate income housing. In my unbiased opinion the education at 29 is just as good as Packard and other expensive Heights favorites, without the elitism. It doesn't have gifted programs, so every kid there treated fairly. 29 is one of the gems that makes NY livable for families of all incomes.
Posted by: PS 29 'rent at April 24, 2006 3:22 PM
Anon at 11:01am,
As someone who has lived in both CH and PS, I have to agree and disagree with some of yoru statements, which of course, depend entirely upon one's priorities, taste, etc.
"a) you have an alternative to the F train if you are prepared to walk a bit more" That really depends on exactly where you are. I take the R from 9th St (only 15 minutes to Wall St.) And there are many choices in North Slope. Plus, when I used to take the F to midtown it was a fairly pleasant 30 min train ride.
"b) you almost never hear sirens from fire trucks or ambulances...fire trucks and private ambulances are chasing down the avenues and streets blaring klaxons..." I'll grant you sometimes it's noisy. There are quiet parts of CH off the beaten path.
"c) you are forced to walk thru gowanus to get to 5th avenue, gowanus has its own cool now" LOL, now that is a stretch. I can always do without a walk thru Gowanus.
"d) court st rocks and the remaining italians at CG make the neighborhood that much more interesting than PS." I like Court St. too, but not more than say 5th Ave. And I like 5th Ave a lot more than I like Smith St., which is now officially overdone, though it never quite arrived, IMHO. I think the old school guys add a lot of color, but don't miss their public racist rants one bit. They act like they own the place and mostly do (cause they're the LL's), which doesn't do much for diversity. At least the lack of diversity in PS is economics, not racism.
"e) you can get to columbia street easily" Huh?
"f) it is flat, not sloped" You need the exercise dude.
"g) the streets are quiet and tree lined" Describes much of PS.
"h) the architecture is more interesting than brownstone upon brownstone" Absolutely no way. PS's bstone architecture is know for it's variety. CH bldgs are much plainer (yet in an elegant way).
"i) you can get a yellow taxi on clinton st any time day or night" Okay, score one for you. I do miss that.
"j) cobble hill park is small but perfectly formed" It's a sandbox comapred to PP.
"k) street parking is easier than park slope (odd but true)" Absolutely not. Both are horrible.
"on the minus side vs park slope:
there is no prospect park." Agree with you there.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 6:32 PM
"e) you can get to columbia street easily" Huh?
"Huh?". Huh? Columbia St is one of the more interesting and rapidly evolving waterfront streets in Brooklyn. And it is a short walk (a few blocks) from CH.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 6:48 PM
there are plenty of racists in PS. same as CH. And parking is easier in CH.
and clearly you don't know what Columbia St is
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 7:53 PM
""k) street parking is easier than park slope (odd but true)"
Absolutely not. Both are horrible."
disagree, I can find a park on clinton practically 24/7 /365 .. except at maybe 12pm night before street cleaning and when I don't want to move the car at 8am the next day. Even visitors scared of small spots find parking on clinton, that is how easy it is.
Park slope parking is a disaster. Unmitigated disaster.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 10:43 PM
No point debating with an 11 year old.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 24, 2006 11:16 PM
I have two children at PS 29 and could'nt be happier. The place has a wonderful vibe. Involved yet laid-back parents. Energetic, creative teachers. Children of diverse backgrounds. As for CH vs. PS, I'm just Brooklyn proud.
Posted by: b at April 25, 2006 7:06 AM
The ambulances in Park Slope are going to Methodist Hospital. As long as you don't live on 7th Ave, or within a block or two of the hospital, you probably won't hear the amulances too much. I live on Garfield between 5th and 6th, and I almost never hear them.
Posted by: Anonymous at April 25, 2006 11:09 AM
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