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March 22, 2006
Condo Beat: Sky High in Boerum Hill
We all know that Boerum Hill is hot, hot, hot, what with the influx of star power and the prospect of the first retail jail in the country, but we didn't realize it was quite this hot. This top-floor condo at Wyckoff and Smith has got killer light and a pleasing clean, simple modern finish. But have apartment prices, even for the nicest ones, really reached $850 a square foot in this neck of the woods? As an aside, this place looks vaguely familiar--especially the custom shelving in the living room that walls off the small baby room. We're pretty sure this place was the subject of a NY Times real estate porn piece within the last year or two.
88 Wyckoff Condo [Prudential Douglas Elliman] GMAP
Comments
my sentiments exactly, brownstoner...quite high...looks nice though. i appreciate the all white minimalist aesthetic.
Posted by: ltjbukem at March 22, 2006 10:23 AM
Those floors are real popular these days, but is it me, or are they just . . . depressing?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 10:38 AM
Maybe its the premium price for not living in a Fedders bldg or a cookie-cutter highrise apt.
Peeping Tomming while walking on Smith street, the ceiling in the apts seem very high and with nice large windows.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 10:40 AM
I don't know. I like Bamboo. Don't have them now, but had them installed in my Manhattan coop when they first came out. Was very happy with the installation (clean and easy)as well as the look.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 10:42 AM
Discussion on this site regarding appropriate pricing within B-stone Bklyn seldom gives any attention to the quality of public schools. In general, folks living in hoods East of Flatbush (esp FG, Clinton H, Crown H, BS) either need to pay for private school or go through the frenzy of getting a variance to attend elementary schools West of Flatbush. Quality of public schools ia acknowledged as major factor in pricing elsewhere why not here?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 10:55 AM
Somewhat right about schools, but this condo isn't aimed on family with kids nor do I think the public school in the area is anything people are pleading to attend.
And often people that buy homes will go private anyway. Look where the private schools are located.
Park Slope, Bklyn Hts, UES, etc.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 11:03 AM
First off, this is a really great building (okay, I'm partial because I live in it) with a nice gym/steam/sauna, a nice common roofdeck, great security (keyed-elevator for floor access) and a fantastic super. The ceilings in this apartment are very high (mine are 10-11', which is the standard I think) and this is a corner apt. with tons of light, especially in the massive living room. It's a condo with low taxes and the building runs _very_ smoothly. All positives.
Still, this is just a large 1-BR, which isn't suitable for a family, so the school access doesn't enter into the picture (and the public schools nearby aren't anything to write home about). It's a lovely apartment, but 850K seems astronomical to me, and I live in the building!
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 11:42 AM
anon 10:55 makes a good point. We (me included) focus a lot on retail and other "amenities" but spending a few bucks on Fresh Direct pales in comparison to the cost of tuition. Sure, some people will use private schools anyway, but money's money and money is fungible and anything you spend on private school is de facto not available for a mortgage payment. That said, not sure if the school here is an asset or not.
As for this place (which yes, is probably not for someone with school-age kids) -- I think the design commands a premium, but not this much of one.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at March 22, 2006 11:43 AM
So, um...I have to ask. Just what do they consider to be comparables here, to justify this price and $/sqft?
After all, even forgetting a rational marketplace for a moment, bank appraisers stick to hard and even comparables, in deciding how much of a property to underwrite in a mortgage. They can't price this above someone else's ability to get a mortgage underwritten, and realistically expect it to sell.
So just how does someone here make the jump from..eh..mayyyybe $725/sqft clear up to $850 sqft with an awkward layout, relatively basic finishes, and a location right down the block from the projects?
Someone please spill the beans, I am all ears. What other properties (recent sales etc) do they consider to be comparables to support this valuation?
This should be amusing.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 12:34 PM
2 blocks south on Smith St. condo recently sold for just under $700 sq ft. But that is over a restaurant (Fa'an) and on wkends a nuisance nighclub -BarBelow (much as us neighbor hate it and that city does nothing about it) - in newer Fedders bldg that doesn't have the nice common spaces (not even sure if has elevator).
I think this is much much nicer building (with nice quiet bank downstairs).
Posted by: pete at March 22, 2006 12:40 PM
It is clean and bright, but other than that I really don't see anything remarkable about this place. What am I missing?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 1:02 PM
linusvanpelt: A 1BR in this building sold in November (also through Elliman) and while it wasn't a corner property and was on a lower floor, the bedroom and living/dining room were on opposite ends of the apartment, which is a much nicer layout to me. I think it was listed at like 550,000 and was 900SF; it was not as nicely finished, but was still _very_ tasteful and needed zero work.
Anon 12:24: This is to my mind the nicest condo (dates from like 1900) in the hood and has great amenities and doesn't have a loud bar below, but by no stretch of the imagination is 850,000 appropriate, even if it is nicely designed. Think of what 2BRs are going for in the neighborhood, or even in the heights.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 1:05 PM
how is bar below a nuisance? its situated in the basement.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 1:20 PM
um, how much of that square footage is hallway?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 1:44 PM
A one bedroom in this beuilding sold in July 2005 for $690 a square foot.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 2:19 PM
Anon 2:19,
How big was the apartment?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 2:28 PM
Personally, we love PS 261 where my kids are going. Lots of people in the neighborhood, us included, who can afford private school send our kids to PS 261. Middle school is whole nuther issue.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 4:29 PM
The $690 psf place was 795 sf. Actually sold without a broker for $650 psf. Had a broker been involved it would have been $690 psf but the 6 percent comission was knocked off. Lower floor and not as renovated. Look it up in the public record.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 5:43 PM
So, what do people think is a fair price per sf for a condo in Clinton Hill or Fort Greene, compared with Boerum Hill?
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 6:51 PM
hello can anyone say greenehouse on carlton? those had very HIGH ppsf.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 22, 2006 8:28 PM
As for the zoned school for this neighborhood, its ps 261 which is one of the best in Brooklyn. I know alot of Fort Greene/Clinton Hill folks would kill to have their kid in this school. Thats where most of the no-zoned kids come from.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 23, 2006 6:05 AM
Get real! Have any of you looked at real estate prices in good Brooklyn neighborhoods lately? DUMBO and even Park Slope sales start at $800 and soar to over $1000 per sq. ft. And this is the best area to live--close to Manhattan, great schools, restaurants and amenities, and this apt. is in a converted loft building (rare in brownstone Brooklyn). A block from the subway and 24-hour deli, it's a dream for New Yorkers. People are dying for this lifestyle combo.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 23, 2006 11:47 AM
The fact that there is a great public school in the neighborhood where you can feel comfortable sending your kid is huge. Whether the person who buys this appartment has a kid or not they will be paying a premium for the school district. Just like people who live in Montclair pay school taxes up the bumm whether they have a kid or not.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 23, 2006 4:10 PM
Anonymous 11:47a:
Prices start at around $600s/sqft for Cobble Hill and Brooklyn Heights and Park Slope (the more prime neighborhoods that actually have the better schools).
The true luxury properties, ones that are larger and not as oddly/inefficiently laid-out as this one, and have city/harbor views and far better finishes and amenities than this one are the ones that actually command anywhere near or above $800/sf.
The apartment shown here is in an architecturally less attractive neighborhood (Smith Street: great to visit, but better to live a few blocks west and visit...), and is situated right down the block from 'da projects (not the Promenade or Prospect Park).
Access to all the bustling new restaurants and shops and the subway underneath the building may help diminish the relative downgrade of Smith Street's lingering barrio aesthetic and personality, but it would be a stretch to compare this location with other more prime neighborhoods you mentioned that command some of the higher prices you suggested were the norm everywhere (including this neighborhood).
Relative to those locations, this location is more of a less-expensive fringe along (but not zoned for) the better schools and other amenities of the other neighborhoods you mentioned.
Also, in terms of the rarity of new loft developments, perhaps you have been asleep for the last year...new developments (many with far better finishes and amenities) have been exploding everywhere in all these neighborhoods and elsewhere.
If anything, Fall 2005 and all of 2006 (and perhaps beyond until inventory is cleared) has been marked by a glut of supply of new developments unloading new "luxury" properties on the market for the foreseeable future, and also existing properties coming up for sale just adding to that market. Curbed has posted charts detailing and quantifying this every week for the last several months, so it is a bit odd to see your conjecture there. Rare. Hah. Hasn't the explosion of all these new condo developments (and the glut of them in total, and difficulties to sell them out anymore) much of the discussion the daily topic of conversation around here?
So anyway, check your figures and stats, and perhaps "get real!" by checking those against actuals and actual current analysis of the subject. Prices do not start at $800/sf, especially not for the location, basic new finishes and odd layout of this apartment.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 23, 2006 4:28 PM
Anonymous 11:47am and Anonymous 4:10pm:
This is not a neighborhood with one of the "great schools."
Park Slope PS 321 and Cobble Hill PS 29 (and perhaps recently now PS 8 in Brooklyn Heights) are the neighborhoods with the great puiblic schools.
The public school this apartment is zoned for is more like just an "okay, not great" school, one that certainly would look attractive to anyone in other neighborhoods that have schools that truly do rate poorly and produce unfortunate results.
In fact, one of the schools serving Smith Street community (perhaps this one) was just busted this past year by City and State officials for providing and discussing the actual test forms and answers for a major city/statewide standardized tests to all kids the day before the exam, just so their kids would score better and the school would not get a lower rating.
The cheating scandal was all over the local papers, and I think the principal was fired or suspended or something.
Grrrreeeeeaaat.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 23, 2006 4:43 PM
I stand corrected.. PS 261 on Pacific Street (for which this apartment is zoned) was not the school busted for the tests cheating incident.
The PS busted for the cheating incident is zoned starting 2 blocks south of this apartment.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 23, 2006 4:52 PM
Also, based on the difference in schools (that it is PS 261, not the other a few blocks away), the school for this apartment is pretty good:
http://www.insideschools.org/fs/school_profile.php?id=447
..although the following are usually the ones consistently rated at the top and considered major real estate draws:
Park Slope PS 321
http://www.insideschools.org/fs/school_profile.php?id=450
Cobble Hill PS 29
http://www.insideschools.org/fs/school_profile.php?id=430
Still, given how much so many other surrounding schools have improved in recent years due to improvement of neighborhoods and heavy parental involvement, perhaps there may be a number of other schools (including perhaps PS 261) that soon join 321 and 29 in achieving the very highest marks and results.
May just be a matter of time, with so many neighborhoods improving at current torrid pace and so few (and so few affordable) slots at private schools finally motivating the legions of new parents to make the best of the public school in their zone.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 23, 2006 5:15 PM
the average "new condo" price in Boerum Hill is about $700psf. That's based on the typical 2bd,2ba 1000sf layout going for around $700k. I'd say existing units that aren't right across from the pj's would be about $600psf (but you don't see many for sale).
Posted by: chuck at March 23, 2006 5:43 PM
What loft buildings are in that area? Only ones I know are on Atlantic or way down near the BQE.
Posted by: Anon at March 24, 2006 8:45 AM
Some comments about this apartment seem to miss the point when it comes to good schools in the area (maybe you don't all have kids). We're not only talking about public schools here, but private ones as well. While it may seem ludicrous to want to pay to live near a school that costs $20k in tuition each year, take it from me that convenience is major to quality of life. I schlep with my kids to this area for school each morning, and it's wearing thin. As a result of my frustration, I've been looking for just this kind of place (maybe a little bigger) and I can't say I've seen a lot that are more affordable (maybe they should cut $50k from the price, though). This really is a unique neighborhood, projects or not, and it's not quite the same when it takes 1/2 hour to commute to it.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 24, 2006 9:51 AM
Some comments about this apartment seem to miss the point...
..that this location is not prime real estate like Brooklyn Heights and Cobble Hill (which are home to those better private schools, btw), and therefore should not be priced head and shoulders above comparables in the actual prime areas of Heights and Cobble Hill.
Smith Street is a less-attractive, former/still barrio aesthetic fringe area adjacent to these better neighborhoods.
Again, prices, even for the picturesque Heights and Cobble Hill, START in the $600s per square foot, and only the most exclusive properties go over $800/sf.
Sure it is nice to live near the amenities of the nicer neighborhoods like Brooklyn Heights and Cobble Hill (and even parts of Carroll Gardens and more prime brownstone parts of Boerum Hill), but lets not fool ourselves that Smith Street area for its commerical traffic, famous morning trash problems, far less attractive and cheap-looking buildings, and location right down the block from the projects merits higher prices than the prime neighborhoods that actually have all the valuable amenities.
Again, better to live in a classic prime neighborhood and walk a few blocks to the new hodgepodge of Smith Street than live above it.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 24, 2006 1:24 PM
I live in the building and I think this is ludicrous! If it was a real two bedroom, then I would understand, but a large 1BR for close to a million bucks? Puh-leez! I say 700 tops!
Posted by: Anonymous at March 24, 2006 2:57 PM
Went to this last sunday. Low ceilings compared to the rest of the building it seems, the bedroom is small, the baby room is a joke, and there must be at least 150 sf of hallway which is just dead space. The design is nice, but nothing worth paying for. The windows are at odd heights on one wall, and while there's a nice view, it looks like the lower floors have much more substantial windows. I would say maybe 650 or so. It's just a 1BR
Posted by: Anonymous at March 29, 2006 12:41 PM
Record company EMI sign a deal with the estate of crooner Dean Martin to use the singer's likeness...
Posted by: Julio Bergman at November 22, 2006 10:32 AM
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