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March 3, 2006

House of Detention Back on Radar, Bigtime

newswalk
While the possibility has been floated a few times over the past year or so, today's NY Times article on the likely reopening of the Brooklyn House of Detention on Atlantic Avenue in downtown Brooklyn takes the situation from Def Con 1 to Def Con 3 in a single day. Evidently, the inmate population has been swelling much faster than anticipated and, if current trends persist, could reach a tipping point by Summer that would necessitate reopening the 760-bed jail. Not surprisingly, some residents ain't thrilled by the idea. "We really would prefer it not to open," said Sue Wolfe, president of the Boerum Hill Association, adding, "It hurts the merchants; it hurts the people that live and work here." How much of The Smith is already sold and what kind of impact will this news have? It's our sense that everyone knew this was a possibility but that most didn't think the city would really throw such a wrench into the gentrification boom.
Brooklyn Jail May Reopen [NY Times]

Comments

I think the place looks worse in its current state....scaffolding, unfinished construction, unmaintained than it ever did when operating as jail.
It was part of downtown area for long time and to me never was a negative.
I would think that some of the new (completed) surrounding buildings were planned when jail was still operating.
Much ado about nothing.
Just clean up the outside and get rid of the scaffolding.

Posted by: Pete at March 3, 2006 9:16 AM

If Shaya Boymelgreen lands development of it, perhaps he'll keep its depressing exterior and name it...

"PerpWalk"

Posted by: Anonymouth at March 3, 2006 9:17 AM

There is really no argument against reopening this jail if the city needs the capacity.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 9:37 AM

bye bye values in the smith whoever bought just lost 20% they should judt back out of the deal now, forget it.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 9:38 AM

i lived 1/2 way up state st from the jail for 10 yrs. whether it's open or not had zero impact on the life of the neighborhood.it was ugly open, and it's ugly closed. the bail bond storefrontss were around when it was open, they're still around when it's closed. i understand it may affect the smith, but big woop. it's just not that big a deal in terms of how the neighborhood works.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 9:49 AM

maybe this is a stupid question- but what are the major negatives to the jail being open? (i would never want a jail in my neighborhood if i had a choice) but the real day to day negatives? visitors to the inmates? the surrounding businesses it attracts? escapees?? i'm not being sarcastic...

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 9:55 AM

I don't really understand the argument against re-opening either, it was part of the area for decades and I never thought the presence of a jail made it a "bad" area. It might be different if they were going to condemn property in order to build a jail, but it's already there. It's downtown, the courts are there, there are office buildings (the MTA building, etc), doesn't seem like a big deal.

My mom did see someone trying to escape once, around 1970 or so, climbing down a rope from a window. But I don't think there have been a high number of successful escapees...

Posted by: Sloper at March 3, 2006 10:00 AM

"....most didn't think the city would really throw such a wrench into the gentrification boom."

If this is in fact true - then most people are not so smart. This place has been a jail for over 40 years. The city spent millions of dollars renovating it recently and has repeatedly refused requests to sell it to developers.

I feel bad for anyone who was lied to by crooked real estate agents. They should have done their homework though.

Posted by: BigDave at March 3, 2006 10:04 AM

I too see it as a non-event. If something else was there then certainly that would be a plus but the reopening should have no adverse affect on the community. I don't think developers who are bullish on the area were placing all of their bets on the jail not being there.

Unless the courts move out of downtown Brooklyn, there will always be a jailhouse in the area, criminals commuting back and forth for court appearances and paddy wagons full of inmates stuck in downtown traffic just waiting for a chance to make a break for it.

Posted by: BrownBomber at March 3, 2006 10:08 AM

I lived at Court and State for the last nine years of the jail's operation and still live in the (hideous) shadow of the building. With the exception of the lack of parking caused, it had zero impact on my life there.

I do hope this scares off the people stupid enough to buy into the cheaply build "luxury" housing projects going up all around the neighborhoon and turning the place into Akron, Part II.

Posted by: annoyed_brooklyner at March 3, 2006 10:14 AM

Have lived most of my years not far from the house of detention. Has little impact on quality of life - and I'm sure people could walk by it for years and not even be aware what it is(was).
Frankly - the court house one block up is a bigger negative than the jail ever was - as far as unsavory characters hanging around outside the building.
My estimate - zero effect on values/desireability of surrounding blocks.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 10:15 AM

I don't think its that bug a deal. I mean how many criminals want to hang around outside a jail anyway...

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 10:16 AM

Zero negative impact. Maybe even a positive as my parents used to warn me that if I wasnt good I might end up there someday.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 10:25 AM

Not that I care but those people who bought nearby condos are going to be affected big time....Its one thing to look out your window and see a big ugly CLOSED jail, its another thing to look out your window and see a big ugly jail and know that some inmate is staring back at you (boy thats going to be uncomfortable)

You knew this was going to happen when the City kept pouring money into the site - which frankly 40 year history or not seemed like bad fiscal planning in the sense that it might have made more sense to build an 'overflow' jail in a less valuable area (like near the Federal Detention Center by the BQE) and sell the jail which is in a valuable and prime spot. Of course I have no idea what a new faicility would cost and I am sure after the city has sunk millions into the Brooklyn House it is moot now anyway.

Posted by: David at March 3, 2006 10:26 AM

There is nothing alarming about the jail (not prison), but I always found it a doleful place. I could see the outlines of the inmates through the glass bricks and it always filled me with sadness. I wouldn't want to look at that through my floor-to-ceiling condo windows on Thanksgiving.

Jails are not lovely.

Posted by: bkborn at March 3, 2006 10:28 AM

I would think it would be better if the criminals were in the jail, rather than walking around in the street, due to lack of jail space. I've seen more people in cuffs walking into central booking than anywhere near the actual jailhouse.

I've worked in the area, have a good friend who lived a block away, and never thought of it as a danger to anything other than my tax paying pocketbook, watching them take eons to finish it. Those involved in stretching the reno out for years, while they lined their bank accounts - THOSE are the criminals we need to be afraid of.

Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at March 3, 2006 10:28 AM

The posters above are correct. The jail has never really had a negative impact on the surrounding areas for as long as I can remember (I grew up nearby). The only thing that will change when the building reopens is that inmate traffic in DOC vehicles will resume and a DOC police presence will return, but that's about it. This is a bustling downtown district, and regardless of how many new hi-rise condos are built, it will never be truly "residential" except for those existing b'stone blocks in the area. The house of detention has always been there and probably always will be, and I think this is much ado about nothing much.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 10:31 AM

I agree wholeheartedly with annoyed brooklyner. I guess I'm kind of a neighb snob: may this "unseemly" sight deter the wannabes and retain the character and variety of this awesome awesome awesome area and the DIFFERENT kinds of people who live here (some by force!).

plus, we'll need extra space for all those crooked real estate brokers hehehe.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 10:32 AM

Half those new condos look like jails, I don't know if I could pick it out of the crowd.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 10:34 AM

I also lived about 2 blocks away from the Jail for over 20 years-except for visually, it was never really an issue. The whole area is filled with courts and the accompanying services and only once or twice has there been a real problem there. Plus the area is so filled with police it is actually safer than one would think. The area offers far more positives than negatives so it won't stop anyone from buying a co-op in the neighborhood. If anything I worried more about the Supreme Court building getting blown up when they held controversial trials there.

Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at March 3, 2006 10:43 AM

It actually does have 1 big negative to the area - it acts as a real cut-off to the retail activity between Atlantic - West of Court and Atlantic - East of Hoyt. Both have really developed a decent mix of stores, restaurants and bars and between the jail, boreum place (6 lanes) and the parking lot on the north side and the 2 gas stations on the south side it does form a real gap. Had the BHofD been developed with good ground floor retail it would have helped fill in this gap.

Anon 10:34 - could you please explain what "the wannabes" means

Posted by: David at March 3, 2006 10:54 AM

I have lived around here for a number of years, and can think of only two negatives associated with the jail. One -- I have heard that women sunbathing on the roof tops of buildings nearby (like the buildings on Smith between Atlantic and Pacific) would get catcalls sometimes from prisoners, and Two -- I personally have seen an inordinate number of broken windows on State Street between Smith and Hoyt (although this might be more attributable to people going to or more likely getting out of Criminal Court at odd hours and needing some quick cash).

Anyway, I am surprised there are only 760 beds in that place -- it seems bigger than that.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 10:59 AM

David:

You want retail in the ground floor of a jail?

Wives visiting their husbands can go to Victoria's secret while waiting for visiting hours. Just released inmates can rush to Chili's for a post-incarceration Awesome Onion Blossom. Kids can go to Chuck E Cheese for a birthday party and the jail can set up viewing area for their locked up dads behind bullet proof.

Genius.

Posted by: bkborn at March 3, 2006 11:08 AM

BkBorn - No I was saying if it wasnt a jail.....

BUT retil for ground floor of jail was suggested by some (just not me) see:

http://brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2005/12/the_post_looks.html

Anon 10:34 - could you please explain what "the wannabes" means

Posted by: David at March 3, 2006 11:23 AM

i always thought it was cool the way wives and girlfriends would stand on the other side of atlantic avenue making complex hand signals at the jail, communicating with their guys inside. anyone else ever see that?

Posted by: a at March 3, 2006 11:33 AM

To anon 9:49
One possible answer to your question is that the people in the article who so fear the re-opening of the jail are the smae people who really don't give a darn about those who are displaced when a neighborhood is gentrified. It is the same elitist, colonialist attitude of yuppies when the "discover" a new area where people have been living for generations who are then forced out because they can no longer afford the rent. It's not hard to see this new fear of the jail as racist since the visitors who will be the ones walking on the street will not be the kind who are spending 1 mil to live in a luxury project high rise. This also all reminds me of the tenants in the renovated church who got upset that a church took up residency in the common room. The jail was here before - as were all the courts - and anyone with forethought should have realized it could open again.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 11:43 AM

I think would impact boreum place, the smith and the new development at old mobile station.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 11:43 AM

The people who opposse this are about as far-sighted as those who are complaining about the Arab port deal. If the DOC needs the beds then it should be opened and for those who are upset that is part of living in a city.

Posted by: umar at March 3, 2006 11:44 AM

Ahhh. The re-opening of the newly renovated Brooklyn "Hilton"!!!!
A boffo event, 2 bee sure.
It's a city building. It was mothballed and worked on when the incarceration rates were down. Corrections always said that they'd use the building for its intended purpose if they needed it.
And they do.
Get over it.
It's a jail in an area of courthouses and other government buildings.
All the whining in the world ain't going to make it go away.
Clean it up, take away the scaffolding, fix the sidewalks ... and yes .. it looks like any other new apartment complex. With good security.

Posted by: dw438 at March 3, 2006 11:44 AM

In addition, they are still processing perp at courthouse so that's why bondmen still in hood

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 11:45 AM

i call BS on anon 10:59 am--no broken windows on state bet. smith and hoyt. i lived on that block for 10 years and know of one single break-in on the block in that time. ONE.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 12:02 PM

Anon 11:43 did you even read the article before you went of on your tired rant against racist gentrifying yuppies:

The overwhelming 'fear' you are so hell bent on attacking amounted to these 2 comments:

"We really would prefer it not to open," said Sue Wolfe, president of the Boerum Hill Association, adding, "It hurts the merchants; it hurts the people that live and work here."

and

Judy Stanton, executive director of the Brooklyn Heights Association, said a jail reopening would have a visceral impact on the area, with more Correction Department buses driving through, more inmates in handcuffs seen in the neighborhood, and more inmates' family members arriving for visits. But she said her group could live with that.

Wow!!! These gentrifiers are practically Cortez; the local residents would "PREFER" not to have a jail nearby but could "live with it". - how do they sleep at night!

Posted by: David at March 3, 2006 12:05 PM

I live in the neighborhood would have liked something else there. While we always knew the jail could re-open, there is no harm in wishing for something else. When you make a list of amenities you'd like to see in your neighborhood, does it include a jail? I am sure the city keeps it there because a new jail would be next to impossible to site.

I would miss the Bad Apple Bail Bonds sign with the worm in prison stripes coming out of the apple.

Posted by: sandstone at March 3, 2006 12:24 PM

10:26 - Re: your comment about neighbors staring at inmayes thru their apt windows -- I live in a building close to the HOD but my apartment doesn't face it, in fact I have quite a lovely view west, with some pretty gorgeous evening light. Can't see a lick of the HOD out my windows. Am I doomed too?

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 12:28 PM

Anon 12:28 are you a troll or just on the slow side??

If you dont face the BHofD then its reopening won't affect your 'views'

Posted by: David at March 3, 2006 12:45 PM

David 12:45 - nope, not a troll. just wondering since people keep throwing out the "property values will go down" for the Smith, etc etc... but what about the units at the Smith that are nearby to the HOD, but don't actually face it? those people will not look out their window and see perps. so why should they pull out as 9:38 said...

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 12:58 PM

Since I didnt say it, why you bothering me????

I would assume (and I am sure you can figure out) the theory being that a luxury condo next to an operating jail is worth less than a condo next to a non-operating jail.

I certainly cant predict if this theory is going to come true, but for those apts facing the jail - for sure I would be uncomfortable watching my 50" HDTV Plasma, knowing that a bunch of inmates are looking over my shoulder and definitly I would be upset if my wife forgot to pull down the shade before stepping out of the shower and flashed her naked body to 1/2 of brooklyn's criminal population...could be just me though

Posted by: David at March 3, 2006 1:24 PM

not trying to bother -- just using as an example in responding to your comment "Not that I care but those people who bought nearby condos are going to be affected big time....Its one thing to look out your window and see a big ugly CLOSED jail, its another thing to look out your window and see a big ugly jail and know that some inmate is staring back at you (boy thats going to be uncomfortable)"

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 1:28 PM

I lived at 251 Pacific for 15 years and can verify the catcalls and commentary from the inmates whenever I was up on my roof garden. There is a rec area on the jail roof, so it's not just the guys whose cells face your direction. Even if I was into sunbathing, I wouldn't do it on my old roof for that reason. Obviously, since they are locked up, the inmates aren't technically dangerous and if they do break out they weren't going to be dropping in on the places so close to the jail. And other the occasional 2:30am hollerings of "Get the bail-just get the bail!" the impact overall on the neighjborhood was limited. My biggest beef is the jail turned my residential street into a corrections officer parking lot.

But the constant commentary just got old- it was endless and I wasn't scantily dressed, I was watering my plants. I don't believe enjoying my garden is asking for it. Every roof party was interupted by it. The folks who have the penthouses at 75smith are definitely in for some "uninvited guests" at whatever soirees they throw. With the kind of money they are spending, they should've researched whether the jail was definitely closed. I've personally always felt that rumor was too good to be true. And I'd try to get out of buying one of those places-they'll never enjoy the terrace they bought the place for. And it is very creepy to be watched all the time-especially when the peepers let you know at the top of their lungs that they're doing it.

Posted by: kensington gal at March 3, 2006 1:43 PM

Kensington- re 75Smith...the windows of the jail mostly face north and south with no view toward Smith Street. And the distance across Smith Street from the jail is much greater than across Pacific - and probably not within earshot or view.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 2:17 PM

Anon @217

-sorry but 251 Pacific is actually much further than 75 Smith since Pacific is on the FAR side of Atlantic from the jail.

Posted by: David at March 3, 2006 2:37 PM

Wow 2:17. You're really tap dancing.

The jail windows themselves aren't even transparent if I recall. The yard on the roof however, looks like it has majectic 360 degree views of nabe.

Posted by: bkborn at March 3, 2006 2:38 PM

The yard on the roof - is that on the roof of the garage on Smith? - or on top of the building?
BTW - the penthouses for 75Smith face south over Atlantic Avenue and not toward jail.
'Cells' wouldn''t seem to be have view of Smith Street. From yard maybe -but I doubt of terraces on penthouses.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 3:07 PM

So the jail re-opens because the city needs the capacity -- what are ya gonna do? But kudos to Crown HeightsProud for highlighting the truly shocking revelation in this story: "...cleaning crews would need several weeks to remove debris left from a renovation that has cost $50 million...". Our taxpayer dollars at work, my friends!

Posted by: Thurstan at March 3, 2006 3:27 PM

i don't undertsand why prisoners get 360 degree basketball court views in a renovated building in the first place.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 3:46 PM

I'm much more concerned with the cavalier and totally illegal activity of cops parking on sidewalks in the area than with the return of prisoners. If I were stupid enough to drive to work I'd have to pay for parking. Why should any City employees be treated any differently?

John Ife

Posted by: John Ife at March 3, 2006 3:50 PM

John Ife brings up a fantastic point - not only parking on the sidewalk but double parking, blocking streets, etc.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 3:57 PM

Let me understand this. The City shuts down the HOD for renovations. Renovations cost the City a whopping $50 million. And for some kooky reason neighborhood folks were under the impression that either (a) the City would close the jail down permanently after spending a fortune; or (b) the City would sell it to an ex warden turned developer who made the $50 million jailhouse renovation (for nostalgic reasons) a condition precedent to closing? I don't get it.

Posted by: BrownBomber at March 3, 2006 4:10 PM

anon @2:17- We were farther away from the jail than 75 Smith and my roof garden was a small area facing south, like the penthouse terraces will be. We had one story structure housing the stairs to the roof between the actual garden area and the prison. You can look all this up on satellite mapping. The inmates still could see us and the catcalls and BS went on almost everytime we were up there, including the 4th of July during the fireworks. Why the inmates get to watch fireworks, I'll never know. The yard is on top the roof of the building, not the garage and has 360 views. I'm sure that the inmates will have a much better view of 75smith than of my old roof.

I bought my old apartment with no money down in 1990. The deal was the reason we rationalized the then fairly dreary local. That and I was 24 and no money was exactly what we had. And, while I miss all the restaurants and shops that finally came to the area, I really don't miss living next to the prison. I sure as hell wouldn't pay 1.1M for the experience at 75smith.

Posted by: kensington gal at March 3, 2006 4:25 PM

HOD was not shut for renovations but for lack of prisoners. When it was closed, there was $15 million left to spend on renovations and the City decided to finish it and then mothball the facility in case it was needed later. The City has been pretty clear that the facility would reopen if it were needed again so I don't know why anyone would be surprised that it's reopening. I think a lot of us were hoping that if it sat empty for a few years, the City would decide it made financial sense to sell an empty jail. Reopening so soon only means that is a lot less likely to happen.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 4:27 PM

And now that everyone and their dog is a suspected terrorist, including bike riders. . . we'll need all the penitentiaries we can get.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 4:40 PM

It isn't a prison (or penitentiary) - it is a jail, which means most of the people being housed there are awaiting trial ie. they are 'legal' innocent (until proven guilty) but were deemed a flight risk and bail was set (which they cant make) - some may be individuals awaiting transfer upstate (to prison) or serving misdemeanor time (less than 1yr), but since the bulk of the people there havent been convicted of anything being permitted to watch fireworks on the roof doesnt sound that crazy.

I notice we havent heard from Anon @ 2:17 - I hope he is calling his broker and trying to get his deposit back for an apartment he apparently was misled about.

Posted by: David at March 3, 2006 4:50 PM

I don't really get the big deal. I'd rather live near the jail than pay $2 million for a condo in Chelsea and live next to some really bad projects on 9th Avenue. At least with a jail you don't have crack deals going down on the street right outside your door. I don't really see there being a long-term impact on property prices in the area. This is New York City, if you want a squeaky-clean neighborhood you can move to the boring Upper East Side

Posted by: Anonymous at March 3, 2006 11:44 PM

Actually anon 11:44pm, wouldn't it be the boring Upper West Side? Yeah sure, great stores, GETE etc... but it seems like the capital of boring.

Upper east side, while a close second, probably takes weekly field trips to the upper west side to borrow tips on being boring.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 4, 2006 4:42 AM

For the official reasons why re-opening the jail is a bad idea, please visit:
http://www.atlanticave.org/masterplan.htm

Posted by: chuck at March 4, 2006 10:53 AM

Really bad projects in chelsea? I wish this were true, cause your point would have been a great one.

except for the fact that the "really bad projects in chelsea" are as tame as any mitchell-lama condo conversion.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 4, 2006 11:36 AM

Its 2:17- No deposit/not interested in condo and own house 6 blocks away - and as a 50+ year old man doubt would I would be getting any catcalls from prisoners. And I still can't see how from roof on jail can see terraces facing Atlantic to new bldg. - can't see around corners.
Yes, can see down to rooftop of Pacific St.

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Posted by: abe hoffman at June 22, 2006 6:05 PM

I think anybody who lives in the area (I'm about a block away on Schermerhorn and can see it clearly from my living room window) would prefer that this piece of land be used for something more beneficial to the immediate community. Retail, housing, offices, school, church, parking lot, whatever. I also think that given the value of this land to developers, it could make sense for the city to sell it and find someplace more industrial to put a jail.

Nevertheless, that said, I think our primary concern is that as long as the facility is there, that it be a good neighbor. The city should recognize that it is located in a diverse, mixed-use neighborhood with a lot of residential property. It should work to make sure that nuisances (catcalls, noise, parked vehicles, etc.) are minimized -- install soundproof glass, block the views from the recreation areas, strictly enforce parking rules, etc. Ground floor retail would be great to help connect the Atlantic Ave corridor, and perhaps the rents collected could pay for the costs of any improvements needed.

Posted by: a.v. at April 5, 2007 2:36 PM

« Friday Linkage State Assemblyman Turns Up Heat on Developers »

March 3, 2006

House of Detention Back on Radar, Bigtime

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