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February 3, 2006
Residential Sales in Brooklyn
PARK SLOPE $1.05 Million
43 Windsor Place
2-family, 3-story prewar house; 2 bedrooms, 3 baths in primary unit; 1 bedroom, 1 bath in other unit; dining area in each; rear garden; 17-by-100-ft. lot; taxes $1,870; listed at $1.2 million, 2 weeks on market (broker: Betancourt) GMAP
KENSINGTON $400,000
310 Beverly Road
2-bedroom, 2-bath, 1,100-sq.-ft. co-op in a postwar building; entry foyer; terrace; maintenance $687, 34% tax-deductible; listed at $380,000 (multiple bids), 2 weeks on market (broker: Orrichio Anderson Realty) GMAP
From the print edition of yesterday's NY Times.
Comments
Am I the one who's nuts? Who would spend over a million dollars for the house on Windsor Place, considering what you can get for that money in Ditmas Park, Kensington or Bay Ridge, just off the top of my head. The neighborhood isn't even that great or that convenient. You can find decent schools in these other nabes, so don't give me that.... Are people just desperate to be on the ever widening fringes of the Slope?
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 10:31 AM
I'll tell you why -- because the Windsor Place house is on a good block right off what is becoming an extremely hot eating and shopping strip in Park Slope. It's got good access to several subway routes and extremely strong public schools, and it's a quick walk to the park. This particular house is pretty wide if I remember correctly. Not a bad price for the nabe -- although it looks like the house would benefit from some cosmetics.
Ditmas has beautiful houses, no doubt. People buying in this area, though, are working a whole different equation.
Incidently, I notice that a lot of people on this board tend to turn up their noses at the area's frame houses, many of which are currently covered in vinyl siding. Look at what happens, however, when these facades are re-done in period fashion. They can -- and many do -- look spectacular. There are good examples throughout this area as well as in FG, CH and Gowanus.
Posted by: mimimi at February 3, 2006 10:47 AM
For me, it's about buying into a community, not necessarily buying a particular kind of house. Spending $1 million for a house in a neighborhood where the houses routinely sell for 1.5 to 3 times that -- bringing with it a far greater range of services and amenities -- is the better choice for me.
Posted by: Sloper at February 3, 2006 10:51 AM
The Windsor Park block is unattractive and desolate. I've walked down it several times. I'll give you that it's a decent walk to the park and some amenities, but still not worth over a million. Even when the facades of these homes are restored, they are still unremarkable. They still have a shack-like feel to the exterior. Obviously it's for someone out there, but it would not tempt me.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 10:53 AM
Sloper, I'm not following you. Are you saying this is a good deal? Houses in this part of Slope do not go for $3 (as far as I know). I would rather live in the heart of an aesthetically pleasing, up and coming neighborhood with good grass roots community, than hang onto the fringes of a community which although has its metits, ain't have the place it used to be in terms of "community". What do people mean, exactly by community on this board anyway? People or the availability of organic produce. For me, it's a combination of the two...
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 10:58 AM
What exactly differentiates a buyer interested in this house, from a buyer interested in a home in Ditmas Park. They both have the cash?
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 11:07 AM
Off-topic, but Brownstoner, while I applaud your making money off the site with ads, like the above one for Warren Lewis, it would be a service to the readers to turn comments on under them, so we can comment just as we do with any other houses posted here. It smacks of selling the broker immunity from comments -- which wd be your right, of course, but skeeves me out.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at February 3, 2006 11:08 AM
I'm not saying it's a good deal -- not sure anything of the kind exists anymore. But if you want to live in this area and are only moderately loaded, this is an opportunity. Houses on this block don't go for $2 mil, but they do up and over only slightly. Granted, those are very different kinds of blocks and houses.
I'm not saying these are better or comparable to the brownstones and limestones in the area, but for people who really want to live here, this type of house is a chance to get in.
As for the curb appeal of well done frames, we will have to agree to disagree.
Posted by: sloper at February 3, 2006 11:14 AM
Knew we weren't going to get off that easy...It's up to whoever's paying for the ad. We suspect some will opt for them on, some off. Obviously taking ad money from the brokerage community is fraught with conflicts of interest--though ones no different that any magazine faces--but the bottom line is that doing so is the only way to have a shot at making a living off the site. We tried to come up with a concept that had some informational value to readers. It's not always easy keeping up with new listings hitting the market. Giving our readers a jump while putting a few bucks in our pocket seemed like a good way to go. Do we wish we didn't have to take any advertising at all? Sure, but after a year and a half of basically working two jobs, this is what we gotta do. We certainly don't intend for it to be a back-door route to immunity for brokers. Given the number of firms out there, no one will be able to put us over a barrel.
Posted by: Brownstoner at February 3, 2006 11:20 AM
I think what Sloper's saying is (or what I would say, anyway), you can buy a house for half the price, or less, than a park-block house and be within the same school zone and no farther from many of the same amenities. (I think the Windsor house is zoned for 107 but I may be wrong.)
As for the whole "community" thing, if people want to believe we're now a bunch of soulless Richie Riches who would rather run over our neighbors with our $800 Bugaboos than talk to them, that's fine by me. Too damn crowded here anyway.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at February 3, 2006 11:21 AM
I don't think anyone begrudges you making a dollar -- you mark your ads as ads clearly. The no-comments option is unfortunate -- anyone want to start a poll on how long until a broker actually requests comments on their listing? But we'll see how that plays out I guess.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at February 3, 2006 11:27 AM
I lived in Park Slope for about a year (after living in Manhattan and London for the previous fourteen years) and I have to say, although I can see why a lot of people like the Slope, I chose to leave although I could certainly afford it. If I wanted convenience, great restaurants, beautiful brownstone architecture, I would have hightailed it back to Manhattan. Park Slope just felt like it was trying too hard to be Manhattan - and missing the mark. However, I found several other Brooklyn neighborhoods really appealing - quiet, peaceful, architecturally different and beautiful, great sense of community. And I eventually bought in one of these other neighborhoods. Yes, I do drive over to Park Slope to shop. But I'm glad I don't live there anymore. But saying that, I'm glad those who live there and are happy there are just that - happy. Isn't that what we are all after? I suppose the point is that many people don't realize there is an alternative to the Slope, and perhaps they would prefer an alternative to living in an unattractive house on the fringes of the nabe. Maybe not. But good to know there are choices.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 11:35 AM
Hey, I'm "Sloper" ! I think the house on Windsor is way over priced.
Posted by: Sloper at February 3, 2006 12:15 PM
Windsor house is zoned for PS 10, I believe.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 12:53 PM
What I can't figure out is why the buyers dropped their asking price $150k after only 2 weeks on the market. Guess the ask was way off the mark.
Incidentally, a frame house on 16th (the backyards of these two properties almost touch) just sold in the $1.1+ range, I believe.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 12:57 PM
$1.2M was a total reach, I think, tho over $1M definitely makes sense.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at February 3, 2006 1:43 PM
I know this is a dead horse, but c'mon, Windosr Place is Windsor Terrace - not Park Slope. It seems petty but the loose nomeclacture [sic] is part of what's eroding the different neighborhoods. A small part of course, but a part nonetheless.
Posted by: formerly known as anonymous at February 3, 2006 1:44 PM
Formerly known as Anonymous - you make an important point. Again, the whole "what consitutes Park Slope" nonsense... Park Slope is Park Slope. Windsor Terrace is Windsor Terrace.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 2:05 PM
43 Windsor Place is between 7th and 8th Avenues. If anyone considers Windsor Terrace to extend west of Prospect Park Southwest, that's news to me. If so, what's its western border? 7th ave? 4th? the bqe?
imho this house is south slope (by the more liberal definition that extends park slope to the prospect expressway) or it's greenwood heights/whateverthehellyoucallit (by the conservative definition that ends park slope at 15th street).
Posted by: linusvanpelt at February 3, 2006 2:15 PM
And I haven't seen any descriptions of Windsor Terrace that include this block of Windsor. This house is between 7th and 8th (it's right off of 7th.) WT's western border is generally considered Prospect Park West, although some say it is 8th Ave. Either way, this block doesn't fit.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 2:16 PM
to Formerly known as Anonymous...
thanx for informing us that our neighborhoods are eroding. For whatever reasons. I'll be sure to be on the look out.
And people - ya better memorize those 'borders' - 'cause some folks get pretty testy.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 2:43 PM
Borders are important, in that they preserve neighborhoods that were created as a social and/or architectural vision. What is odd about these blocks is that they don't seem to fit in anywhere. I subscribe to the conservative definition of Park Slope (I don't live there) and I'm not convinced South Slope is anything other than overpriced sprawl. This house may in fact be in Greenwood Heights, a neighborhood I would be interested in knowing a bit more about in terms of history.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 3:19 PM
"neighborhoods that were created as a social and/or architectural vision. "
- what planet you from? many of the neighborhood names all you folks are using are 'visions' of modern day real estate agents, some stem from defined historic districts and all are arbitrary and ever-changing and ambiguous.
According to all you 'namists' I can walk out my house - be in Cobble Hill if I walk a few feet one way, Boerum Hill a few yards the other, Carroll Gardens a few south and the brand new "Gowanus" must be there also.
All formerly known as South Brooklyn.
And to me all the blocks around my home are my 'hood - and I don't transverse several 'neighborhoods' going out in the morning to get my coffee, newspaper and bagel.
Get over it. They are just names - nothing sacrosanct and are not politcally entities.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 3:32 PM
43 windsor place is park slope, if you accept that the south border in the prospect expressway, which most do nowadays, and the west border is PPW. And it's closer to prospect park than being on 6th ave and 3rd st, say, and closer to subway station.
And "sprawl"? Go tell the people on W97th st they live in UWS sprawl..
Posted by: OE at February 3, 2006 3:45 PM
anon 3:32, good points all, but i think borders matter, even if they're ever-changing, for one reason--because brokers fudge them to try to con more $$ out of people. If it weren't for the anal-retentive neighborhood name police, all of brooklyn would be park slope, and probably most of queens.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at February 3, 2006 3:56 PM
I remember you could always tell when realtors were advertising house in FortGreene.... was referred to as 'Bklyn Hts Vic.'
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 4:16 PM
The whole borders debate is so tired and silly. If a broker wants to make an ass of themselves by advertising a place on 25th street and 4th Avenue as Park Slope - let them. If someone buys an overpriced house because they fell for the lie - that is their own damn fault. Why do we really care? I say lets call the whole place Brooklyn Heights vicinity and be done with it.
Posted by: Sloper at February 3, 2006 4:27 PM
Borders are important historically. Maybe not in terms of your day-to-day wanderings, but in terms of the social and architecturally history of Brooklyn, they matter. Maybe in 100 years a thesis will be written on the dissolution of the borders of Park Slope, and then this discussion will also have historical merit.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 4:48 PM
Anon 3:32..."be in Cobble Hill if I walk a few feet one way, Boerum Hill a few yards the other, Carroll Gardens a few south and the brand new "Gowanus" must be there also.
All formerly known as South Brooklyn." You might be interested to know this little tidbit of old-timer history that even prior to being known as South Brooklyn, these nabes, esp. CG, were known as RED HOOK which sent a shudder down many outsiders' spines! That's what residents called it back then, before anyone ever dreamed of calling it Carroll Gardens. Of course, as we know, Red Hook now exists on the other side of the BQE and has been pretty much self-contained for decades, but it once extended farther north and east than its present borders.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 5:05 PM
11:35, I hear ya. I lived in the Slope for a long, long time. I also left recently because I felt the Slope lost it's soul. I was tired of getting trampled by $800 Bugaboos! Just curious...where did you end up? Anyway, I don't never got the appeal of Windsor Terrace or South Slope. I do think people just want to be near the Slope instead of moving to another neighborhood.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 5:45 PM
"Borders are important historically" oh please - they are not! We accept Caroll Gardens and Cobble Hill as neighborhoods today but they were just Red Hook or South Brooklyn just a few decades ago. No one cares except brokers and people who need to feel validated.
Posted by: BadSloper at February 3, 2006 5:59 PM
Sorry 05:05 - you said it first and better than me. I should have read your post before posting myself.
On another point - why do people who move away from Park Slope so often feel the need to tell everyone why they moved away? It must be tough to carry such bitterness. Can't you just move away and be happy where you are? Do you really think anyone cares that you don't like Bugaboo strollers or through some amazing metaphisical connection you have with spirit world you witnessed the death of its "Soul".... whatever!
11:35AM - I think it is funny that you found the perfect neighborhood but failed to mention its name. Are you keeping it a secret to protect housing prices or are you afraid of all the negative comparisons that can be made to Manhattan or Park Slope?
Posted by: BadSloper at February 3, 2006 6:08 PM
Park Slope rocks.. everyone else get over it!
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 7:27 PM
frame houses sell for around $1.2m regularly these days in the south slope. if you aren't carefully watching where the market is it's hard to see that it all makes sense, but there's precedent for the 43 windsor pl. sale so the buyers do have comps to support their purchase. the question of ditmas vs. park slope is silly. they are two different neighborhoods with vastly different housing stocks and school, services, transportation options. why does one have to beat out the other one?
Posted by: Anonymous at February 3, 2006 7:28 PM
I know the horse is long dead, but that house is not in Windsor Terrace, and it hostorically would never have been considered Windsor Terrace. In fact, up until about 40 years ago, the meaty and pretty nice part of Windsor Terrace up until about 10th or 11th avenues and Sherman Street was called Park Slope--it even retains Park Slope's zip code and phone exchanges--but I think landmarking as well as sort of bonds between people shrank Park Slope and enlarged Windsor Terrace, which was the lower part of the hill.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 4, 2006 12:07 PM
Was the neighborhood really called Windsor Terrace 40 years ago? Just asking.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 4, 2006 2:37 PM
just to give you an insiders view, i grew up in windsor terrace and we all knew where it began and ended. it was partially with attitude but mostly at 15th street and prospect park west. most people in new york had never heard of windsor terrace so you'd have to reference it with park slope, but the second you did some slopie at the party would call you out for being from windsor terrace then you'd be left to back peddle and explain. now people are still confused. you want to know where windsor terrace is? it's in the heart of the locals, fine upstanding families who i still stop on the street to talk to leisurely and joyfully. now i can't afford a house where i grew up. my advice to you is if you don't understand this neighborhood please go somewhere else and drive up the prices there.
Posted by: anon at February 5, 2006 10:38 PM
anon 10:38, new york is and has always been full of people who moved from somewhere else, took over neighborhoods and drove up the prices. If it weren't it'd still be an indian encampment.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 5, 2006 10:46 PM
How is wanting to raise a family in the Slope a bad thing? Losing its soul? The $800 stroller rant is as tiresom as the where does the Slope begin and end argument.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 5, 2006 11:28 PM
I own 4 stroy brickstone soon to be 5 story in CENTER slope and a Victorian one in Ditmas Park, very close to the park, one block below Albemarle mansions. My wife likes the slope better my kids as well because of the fact that their friends are in the slope.
I rather live in my huge victorian 50'x110' with a long 6 car driveway (not having to wake up in the morning to move the car chased by the traffic police, 5 min late and bingo 100 bucks short) and a yard big enough to build extra mother and doughter appt. above the garage and play basketball.
not to mention the big dog I have that runs free in the country style yard surrounded by 5 immense 50' trees that
shades the house during the summer in such efficiancy that below 90 degrees outside I do not need any A/C.
The house in Ditams are so big you can Play football inside in the winter with your kids. Which I often do.
Posted by: developerxx at February 6, 2006 12:54 AM
To anon at 10:38--I am with you 100 percent--I hate it when people pay over $1 million to live here and then complain there are no amenities--if this area isn't for you, choose another and let people who have been loyal through the really down times stay where they appreciate home! And, yes, locals knew it as Windsor Terrace 40 years ago--tho even people from other parts of Brooklyn called it Park Slope--even in historic WT around Greenwood--but we knew better!
Posted by: Anonymous at February 6, 2006 11:43 AM
Did this really run in the NY Times on Feb 2nd? I don't see this on the NY Times Web at all.
Posted by: LABrooklyn at February 8, 2006 2:34 PM
The Times listing is wrong. It was listed for 1.2m and sold for 1.15m about 6 wks. later. My wife and I had offered 1.125 originally, then someone else came with a full-price offer and we dropped out after saying we'd offer 1.15m if deal fell through. 3-4 wks. later we were told the orig. buyer dropped out. We got the house for 1.15m. The market was such that this was a good deal. We'd been looking for 1 year and looked a hundreds of houses. We plan to restore the front to original siding. One super feature is the garden is quiet and very private, meaning no condos or future construction going on. Alot of detail left in house. We love the area and had no choice but to pay what the market called for.
owners 43 Windsor Place
Posted by: Jardin Zatoichi at June 29, 2006 5:45 PM
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