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February 7, 2006

Prospect Lefferts Gardens: Next Condo Frontier

February 5, 2006--How hot is Brooklyn these days? So hot that condo developers are seeking building sites even in Prospect Lefferts Gardens — where single-family homes are the only thing that's allowed in a big section of the neighborhood, because of deed covenants that date back to the 1890s. And other parts of the nabe are included in a city landmark district, which also limits new construction. Builders are heading to this area despite the relatively low supply of available sites because of the continued strong demand for housing in one of the hottest boroughs. "The pattern in Brooklyn is a repeat of a century ago. First people settled in Brooklyn Heights, then the brownstone belt was created, then radiating bands were created outside the brownstone belt," said Kevin Holmes of Massey Knakal Realty Services. "It's a reclaiming of the brownstone belt." (More...)
Building on Condo Boom [NY Daily News]




Posted by Brownstoner at 8:57 AM | Comments (94)
Categories: Development

Comments

New PLG BLOG
www.acrossthepark.com

Posted by: Anonymous at February 7, 2006 9:10 AM

"It's a reclaiming of the brownstone belt."

Reclaiming it from whom? Not necessarily the best choice of words.

Posted by: wally at February 7, 2006 9:29 AM

Bricolage is behind this. Also, units are being designed/marketed to a particular demographic. So much for diversity.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 7, 2006 9:43 AM

None of the places discussed is really in PLG -- they're all on the other side of Nostrand Ave. And 502 New York Avenue, which is already built, isn't too bad looking.

Posted by: babs at February 7, 2006 10:08 AM

Maybe Henry "Build it too High" Radusky is being slowly pushed out of Brooklyn and soon he will be in Queens and we won't have to worry.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 7, 2006 10:08 AM

Hey Babs,
Are you close enough to 502 New York to snap a photo for us???

Posted by: Brownstoner at February 7, 2006 10:19 AM

The boundaries of PLG extend east to New York Ave. These lines are very confusing, because there's PLG as a whole (Empire Blvd. to Clarkson Ave. and Ocean Ave to New York Ave), Leferts Manor (Flatbush to Rogers Aves.and Lincoln Rd.to Fenimore St.), and the PLG Historic District (all of Lefferts Manor plus two blocks each of Sterling Street and Lefferts Ave. between Bedford and Nostrand Aves.

[Babs wrote: "None of the places discussed is really in PLG -- they're all on the other side of Nostrand Ave"]

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 7, 2006 10:27 AM

hey anon @ 9:43. They are building these properties to a target market in the area. What is wrong with that? They do the same in park slope, prospect heights and even manhattan!

Posted by: RA04 at February 7, 2006 10:37 AM

wait till someone buys the Phat Albert site and puts condos in there. that will change the nabe in a hurry.

Posted by: tripster at February 7, 2006 11:05 AM

I agree with wally, "reclaiming" is an unfortunate word to use here. Why do people touting "new" neighborhoods always assume no one decent lived(s)there before they showed up?

I know now how Native Americans felt when they saw the ships offshore.

Posted by: Bunky at February 7, 2006 11:11 AM

Tripster has it right. Would someone please develop the corner of Flatbush, Empire, and Ocean? What a fantastic piece of property in the pocket of Prospect Park and the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens. The nabe could live without the Wendy's and Phat Alberts.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 7, 2006 11:40 AM

Is it a market in Lefferts, where the buildings are constructed? Or in neighborhing Crown Heights, in which case it is a reflection of overcrowding, lack of housing in Crown Heights?

Posted by: Anonymous at February 7, 2006 12:53 PM

In which case it has nothing to do with Brooklyn, or Lefferts, being particular desirable to a new/growing market, which the article seems to suggest. It is really just a convenient location for a demographic that is already in place in Brooklyn and has no intention of relocating outside the Borough.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 7, 2006 12:54 PM

You're right Bob -- I was referring to historic district boundaries, and also to the fact that most of the architecture on that side of Nostrand is apartment buildings, not townhouses (although there are some on Rutland Rd., I believe), but yes, officially, this is still PLG, even if it doesn't feel like the same neighborhood, and obviously these condos are not being marketed to current PLG residents!

I'll do my best to take a photo of 502 NY Ave, but I probably won't be around in the daytime there until Thursday...

And check out the discussion of Phat Albert's in acrossthepark (great tip!) -- apparently many of us are dreaming of that site!

Posted by: babs at February 7, 2006 1:53 PM

Isn't Bricolage the company that has the hundreds of violations and keeps lying on plans and applications to circumvent zoning and building codes?

Posted by: Anonymous at February 7, 2006 2:06 PM

That's the Bricolage... South Slope and Bobby's Dept. Store fiascos.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 7, 2006 2:09 PM

Babs--you're right that the part of PLG east of Nostrand often feels like a different neighborhood--I don't suppose these new condos will do anything to change that :-(

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 7, 2006 2:13 PM

I live on this same block of these 3 condo development projects. Our apartment is spacious and beautiful and we rent a parking space for a legal garage across the street. The close proximity to the train is wonderful. However, this block is one big eye sore. If will try to get some pics. Soon enough the entire lefferts ave [ heading towards crown heights] will be one big condo lot!! ugh

Posted by: sara at February 7, 2006 7:03 PM

and just btw I don't know the official boundaries of crown heights/plg but I thought I was living in crown heights. and the train which is one block away at sterling and nostrand is a Crown Heights Stop.

Posted by: sara at February 7, 2006 7:05 PM

Funny--most people living in Prospect-Lefferts consider the Sterling Street stop to be a PLG stop. Neighborhood boundaries in Brooklyn are funny. The name "Prospect-Lefferts Gardens" is actually a fairly recent construct, going back to the founding of PLGNA in 1969. A number of brownstone neighborhood names are of similar vintage. Most people consider the dividing line between Crown Heights and PLG to be Empire Blvd. (Which also was, more or less, the dividing line between the City of Brooklyn and the Town of Flatbush before they merged in 1894--which merger was the motivating factor behind the subdivision of the Lefferts family farm, since the land was about to be taxed as city lots rather than farm land).

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 7, 2006 7:23 PM

I certainly would not want to live in Lefferts. It gets very dangerous there very quickly. Just not worth the risk in my honest opinion.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 7, 2006 8:46 PM

I was wondering how long any discussion about PLG could continue w/o this troll showing up--get back under your bridge Anonymous 8:46!

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 7, 2006 9:03 PM

Lefferts is unsafe. This person was merely expressing an opinion. Get over yourself.

Posted by: Steve-O at February 7, 2006 9:51 PM

what do you guys mean by unsafe? are yuppies getting jumped or something? that seems to happen all over brooklyn..especially in the neighborhoods where people who have lived there most of their lives are displaced. hmm.

Posted by: redbone at February 7, 2006 11:29 PM

Alas, the old IT HAPPENS EVERYWHERE argument. The argument appears to go like this:

PEOPLE ARE MUGGED IN EVERY BROOKLYN NABE.

THEREFORE, NO BROOKLYN NABE IS SAFER THAN ANY OTHER. THEY ALL PRESENT THE SAME RISKS.

Does anyone really believe that this is a good argument? If not, then stop worrying about your property values and stop jumping all over people who merely want to speak the obvious and uncontroversial truth about Lefferts. It is not safe!!!!!

Posted by: Anonymous at February 7, 2006 11:36 PM

Damn, you can't even type the letters PLG without the "safe" thing coming up. Everyone was doing so well, too.

To all you "Lefferts is unsafe" people. Fine - don't go there, don't buy a house there, don't have any friends there, or date anyone that lives there. Just let the people who want to live there, have lived there for years, or might think about living there, enjoy themselves,their personal choices, and their homes. Who appointed you the town criers of safety?

Posted by: Bunky at February 7, 2006 11:49 PM

I do not for the life of me understand the bitterness here. I live in Ditmas. Not everyone likes Ditmas. If someone wants to criticize Ditmas, that is fine with me. Why does everyone get their panties in a twist just because someone thinks that Lefferts is unsafe? I personally do not know much about Lefferts, but if people think it is unsafe, I think they should be able to say so without being flamed for it. What the hell is wrong with you people?

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 12:11 AM

Bravo Bunky, but it's probably best not to feed the trolls.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 8, 2006 8:23 AM

All of you self-appointed censors can kiss my ass. Lefferts is a dangerous place. To criticize people for saying so is absurd. Next I guess we will be expected to talk about what a fantastic atmosphere one finds in East New York!

Posted by: Patrick at February 8, 2006 9:48 AM

I agree, Patrick. All points of view should be welcome here, whether they're positive or negative with respect to a particular neighbhorhood. The safety (or lack thereof) of various neighborhoods is commented upon here all the time. I don't see why PLG should be taken "off the table" for such reports.

Posted by: BassOMatic at February 8, 2006 10:00 AM

I had to laugh at the realtor's quote in the article saying that one million or more is now the going rate for homes in the Manor. In her dreams! There have I believe been 3 homes sold for over a million in the last 3 years. The vast majority have sold for 800's to low 900's. Currently, most of the homes on the market are in the 900's--and not selling. I suppose the realtor just thought that saying it would make it so.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 10:06 AM

There appear to be a lot of people on this board who believe that saying positive things about Lefferts will just magically transform the place. Good luck!

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 10:52 AM

10:52 - it's not that saying positive things about anywhere will make it so, it's just that there seems to be a dedicated group of people who can't say anything nice about Lefferts Gardens. It's like a knee jerk response. There is also a knee jerk response to people like me who call them on it. Why can't anyone say anything positive about PLG, or any other "unsafe" nabe, without sixteen people chiming in about how dangerous it is? I don't even live there, but I feel the need to defend it. Like I said before, if it's so damn dangerous, then stay out, count yourself lucky you don't live there, and go about your business. But at least respect the decisions and opinions of others enough to allow them their own choices, why does it bother them so much that people live there and are happy? Why constantly tear the place down? I just don't get it.

Posted by: Bunky at February 8, 2006 11:12 AM

What I can't understand is why Lefferts gets picked on, while no one ever mentions how "dangerous" Crown Heights or Bed-Stuy are. The crime statistics are very similar.

If I'm going to live in a "dangerous" neighborhood, I'd rather live in one that's next to the park, one stop from Park Slope, and 20 minutes to Union Square or the West Village.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 12:10 PM

When people talk about Bed Stuy and Crown Heights, they usually temper their enthusiasm with some acknowledgment of the 'risks' presented by these neighborhoods. On the other hand, when PLG boosters talk about PLG, they make it sound like freaking Disney Land. That, I think, is what irritates some of the posters here. It's not that they want to tear PLG down, but nor will they tolerate a stream of pro-Lefferts propaganda.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 12:50 PM

yes PLG has its problems, yes at times it is as unsafe as any other area...but what I find irritating is,,.you admit that you know nothing about the area but feel free to post "ANONYMOUS" that its an unsafe...why... "its not freaking Disney land" ....we never said it was....we enjoy living here we take the bad with good..folks like you: those who measure the unsafe element by...a lot of black folks live over there.....can continue to enjoy your space where ever that may be...the place that never has any crime....and be happy..just be a little more repsonsible when you post your opinions about an area you admit..you know nothing about...I pray for the safety of everyone on the streets of Brooklyn except those living in Ditmas park because although I don't know anything about their hood..they don't need any extra help......

Posted by: Jill at February 8, 2006 1:20 PM

So what's wrong with "pro Lefferts propaganda"? People who are happy there, are happy there, why shouldn't they extol the virtues of their neighborhood? I have never seen here on this site, anyone who lives there say it was a perfect heaven on earth. Even the staunchest defenders have admitted that it has problems. So what nabe doesn't have problems? Doesn't mean you aren't glad you are there, or that it can't or won't get better.

I think it's just jealousy that someone else got a gorgeous place at a good price, where they are comfortable, and for whatever reason (race, economics, schools, amenties, safety, or all of the above) other people feel they can't move there, and therefore feel cheated.
Get over it. I can't afford to live in Brooklyn Heights, doesn't mean everytime I see an article on BH, I have to comment that it's too expensive.

Posted by: Bunky at February 8, 2006 1:23 PM

Jill - what exactly was your comment about Ditmas Park supposed to mean? It came off as pretty rude. Why single out this community in all of Brooklyn to take a stab at?

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 1:38 PM

Jill, a lot of people post as "anonymous" here--not just me. I said that people get irritated when Lefferts boosters refuse to acknowledge any kind of negatives at all about Lefferts. That's all I said. There are others who posted as "anonymous" who voice negative opinions about Lefferts. I did not voice a negative opinion about Lefferts, but I don't see why anyone should be denied to voice such an opinion if they hold it. Please try to be a little more responsible from now on when replying to "anonymous".

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 1:41 PM

Bunky, the problem I have with pro-Lefferts propaganda is the same problem I'd have with pro-PS or pro-Ft Greene or pro-anything propaganda. It's propaganda! A lot of people come to this board looking for information, both good and bad. I have no trouble believing that PLG has its strong points, but I also have no trouble believing that it has its weak points. Every place has its shortcomings. What's the harm in discussing them frankly and openly?

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 1:44 PM

This is undoubtedly the most retarded thread I've ever encountered. Little Lefferts crybabies who feel bad about their hood, refusing to let anyone get a real look at it. WAH WAH WAH!!! Go ahead and cry, Lefferts crybabies. Pathetic.

Posted by: Jamey at February 8, 2006 1:54 PM

Anon 1:44, There is absolutely nothing wrong with an honest discussion of the pros and cons of any nabe, including mine, which is not PLG, by the way, it's one of those other "dangerous" hoods. But if you look back, there was no meaningful discussion on the part of the LPG is dangerous gang: "Lefferts is not safe", "Lefferts is dangerous", to just quote 2 on this thread. That's it. How? Why? For whom? (the real question here.) Obviously not dangerous for everyone, or no one would be living there, at least none of us at least middle class or above, educated folk of every persuasion, with our computers on all day. Do we have imperical evidence? We don't even get anecdotal evidence, just vitriol, and asinine comments by people like Jamey, who probably doesn't even know where PLG is. Yeah, Jamey, let's get a look at PLG, let's look at where you live, where I live, where everyone lives. That's fair. Being a jerk is just being a jerk.

Posted by: Bunky at February 8, 2006 2:34 PM

Actually, plenty of evidence has been marshalled in other threads. It's just that, as soon as someone relates an incident that reflects poorly on PLG, they get the old "That happens in every neighborhood" argument in return, which is of course a thoroughly hollow reply.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 3:07 PM

The last time there was one of these PLG debates, three people wrote about violent crime they (or their spouse) had experienced int he area. Yet the PLG-philes keep saying that no one ever gives any evidence. Huh? That seemed like at least anecdotal evidence.

I have only added one post to this rant--that laughing at the realtor's absurd over-estimation of current prices in LM--but I do have to wonder at the selective memory of the PLG clique.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 3:21 PM

There's a big difference between thoughtful comments about a neighborhood, positive or negative, and patently obvious trolls. For example, when someone responds to "Lefferts bashing" by writing that there's crime in every brownstoned neighborhood (an obvious truth to anyone without blinders on) there'a an anonymous joker who trys to twist that statement into an absurd claim that "NO BROOKLYN NABE IS SAFER THAN ANY OTHER. THEY ALL PRESENT THE SAME RISKS" a claim I haven't seen anyone actually make on this list.

As I've said previously, I've lived in PLG for 31 years and my experience is that it's NOT an especially dangerous neighborhood (but neither is it Disneyland, Shangra-La, or Never Never Land--something that applies to Ft. Greene, Clinton Hill, Boerum Hill, Park Slope, or even--dare I say it--Brooklyn Heights).

Nevertheless I plan to limit my future objections to PLG Bashing to pointing out the obvious trolls. I'll make one exception though. I'd like to invite "Jamey" to our next PLG House Tour on the first Sunday in June--I'll be glad to pay for your ticket. Far from " refusing to let anyone get a real look at[PLG]" I and many other people have been working hard for many years to make our neighborhood better known(and no, I'm not involved in RE sales and have no compelling reason to want to increase the price of my home, because I have no plans to move). FWIW I do plead guilty to writing lots of "pro-Lefferts propaganda" over the years (if you want to characterise anything positive about my neighborhood as such) and I make no apology for doing so.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 8, 2006 3:48 PM

Please read 12:11 post to get the Ditmas person I was responding to..For all you potential buyers who read this stuff to make an informed choice about where to live BY ALL MEANS do not move to Prospect Lefferts Garden...it is an unsafe, unfriendly place to live just as all the educated folks have posted before me..trust me, they know what their talking about...the houses suck!!!! Stay in your apartment,condo or co-op because you will be taking your life into your own hands once you leave Grand Army Plaza and continue down Flatbush....I really hope you can afford the Park Slope/BH/Ditmas and other fab areas please look there first if you can't find anything there well I guess leave New York but please don't educate yourself about PLG..we SUCK...Everyone happy!!!!

Posted by: Jill at February 8, 2006 3:56 PM

Why exactly are you PLG people so psycho? Is it just that you are upset that prices haven't increased nearly as much as everywhere else? No other area residents get so crazed when a negative word is said about their beloved home.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 4:10 PM

Gee--maybe Jill's approach is better than mine--at least it will not lure the you-know-whats out from under their bridges :-).

Thank you Jill (and thanks to"Bunky" also).

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 8, 2006 4:10 PM

If I were planning to buy a place in Lefferts, I think might change my mind after reading the posts by Lefferts' 'defenders' here. You guys seem really humorless and overly sensitive. Life is too short.

Posted by: Brownnoser at February 8, 2006 4:17 PM

If I were Brownstoner, I'd blog about PLG every day, drive the posts and traffic way up and increase my ad rates.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at February 8, 2006 4:22 PM

Strange--I thought Jill's last post was pretty funny.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 8, 2006 4:29 PM

Blogging about PLG may drive the number of posts up, but I suspect it would *reduce* traffic in the long run. Who wants to read this childish tit for tat? A guy I work with stopped dropping in on this blog because he was so irritated by the last PLG row.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 4:37 PM

Bob, you are welcome. Thanks for the info on the PLG tour, I, for one, plan on being there, because I am not that familiar with the area, and I'd like to see all of the gorgeous homes I've heard so much about. Hope to meet you.

Posted by: Bunky at February 8, 2006 4:39 PM

I would just like to take this opportunity to thank Jamey and various anonymous posters for helping us sort out the whole PLG issue. It was a pleasure reading your posts and we read many more of them in the future. Thanks again!

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 5:08 PM

Thanks Bunky. I wouldn't have bought my house had we not gone on the PLG tour in 1974. We had been house hunting for a long time and were getting discougraged. Prices in Park Slope (were we rented an apartment, were approaching $100K--far more than we could afford (REALLY!). We looked at Victorian frame houses in Ditmas Park, but also couldn't find anything affordable that we liked(no offense intended to Ditmas, which is a beautiful neighborhood)--we saw a Victorian house we REALLY liked on Staten Island, but didn't want to leave Brooklyn.

Anyway, my wife really wanted to go for a drive in the country instead of going on the PLG House Tour--however it rained. We had never been in PLG and didn't expect much--we were wrong!

The '74 tour featured houses in the southern part of PLG, from Fenimore Street to Parkside Ave. We loved the neighborhood, started concentrating on that area exclusively, and closed on our house four months later. I've worked on the house tour ever since, feeling that I owe it to my neighborhood. I can't count how many times I've heard stories similar to our's from people who've seen the neighborhood for the first time at a house tour and ended up buying there. Of course, if you believe the trolls, you're likely to be killed and eaten if you go on a PLG house tour, but IMO if you don't venture under the bridges you'll be fine :-)

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 8, 2006 5:25 PM

I haven't written any "PLG is dangerous" posts, but it is clear that even the most over-the-top posts did not in any way imply that walking aroung PLG during the day with a group of people would be dangerous. Get a grip. Insulting and making fun of people for raising concerns about an area is totally unacceptable--and doesn't put your beloved area in a good light.

Personally, I've been in PLG many times durring the day and felt a bit uncomfortable crossing Flatbush but perfectly safe. I was there once at night, and wouldn't do it again.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 5:36 PM

Hey Anonymous 5:36--I'll get a grip if you get a sense of humor--OK?. It's strange what part of my post you decided to comment about. Even if you don't have a sense of humor the ":-)" was put there to let you know it was a joke!

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 8, 2006 5:44 PM

5:36, at no time did anyone even mention walking around in daylight in a group ANYWHERE. Wha???
And why were you uncomfortable crossing Flatbush during the day? Was traffic really bad? Was it slippery in the rain?Was the sun too bright? Of course you were perfectly safe, please!
This fear of a black planet thing is really amazing. It's so powerful, it can't even be said, it has to be covered up by euphamisms.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 5:49 PM

OH NO! I forgot--DNFTT. I better not comment any more on this thread :-) :-) :-) :-)

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 8, 2006 5:50 PM

FOr all of you who seem to delight in bashing PLG, my experience is in Brooklyn Heights. Yes-THE sacred, untouchable, Brooklyn Heights where I was almost mugged twice and the 3rd time (3 is the charm, they say) was surrounded by a gang of kids, had a gun held to the back of my head and robbed. Oh, and did I mention the time a sniper was on the big apartment building across the street from me and the police kept us inside until they could catch him? (Yes- in Brooklyn Heights). I have some other tales but I think I'll dole them out at the appropriate time- like the next time someone feels the need to bash a neighborhood (and by extension its people). Everyone's experience is different but some of you are so hysterical over anyone actually liking PLG that it's obvious something else is going on with you. I don't get why PLG is such a sore point - As Bunky said- don't go there, don't date anyone from there, etc., etc.

And please don't claim people who defend PLG are "stifling open and honest" discussion. OPen and honest discussion comes with the dissemination of ideas, not condemnation, or the implication that those who live in and love PLG are either lying or delusional.

EVERY neighborhood has its good and bad parts and if your experience has been good, you have every right to a good opinion. But for those who haven't lived in a neighborhood and form opinions based on hearsay, or freak when someone doesn't agree with their opinion, well- grow up.

Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at February 8, 2006 5:50 PM

Anon 5:49, I think that was a reference to Bob's house tour, but the rest of your post is dead on.

Posted by: Bunky at February 8, 2006 5:57 PM

Yes Bunky--I made the horrible mistake of making a (possibly bad) joke--the shame of it!!

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 8, 2006 6:03 PM

Agreed Bunky! I think the reason it gets people so irked is that this was a discussion about condos, with some really interesting history thrown in by Bob Marvin and out of the blue "I certainly would not want to live in Lefferts. It gets very dangerous there very quickly. Just not worth the risk in my honest opinion." Totally unnecessary and not relevant. But certainly calculated to upset people

Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at February 8, 2006 6:08 PM

Bx2Bklyn,

Your comment really gets to the heart of the matter.It may be difficult to define "troll" but you know one when you see one.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 8, 2006 6:18 PM

Everyone's experience is different but some of you are so hysterical over anyone actually feeling unsafe in PLG that it's obvious something else is going on with you. I don't get why PLG is such a sore point

And please don't claim people who criticize PLG are "stifling open and honest" discussion. OPen and honest discussion comes with the dissemination of ideas, not condemnation, or the implication that those who criticize PLG are either lying or delusional.

EVERY neighborhood has its good and bad parts and if your experience has been bad, you have every right to a good opinion. But for those who haven't lived in a neighborhood and form opinions based on hearsay, or freak when someone doesn't agree with their opinion, well- grow up.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 7:24 PM

WAH WAH WAH!!! They criticized Lefferts so Lefferts crybaby is gonna cry cry cry!! WAH WAH WAH!!!

You people are so pathetic. Someone offers a perfectly ordinary criticism of your nabe and you go to pieces, making accusations and getting your backs up. I'm sorry your stuck in such a crappy nabe but I sure hope you don't move into mine anytime soon.

So go on Lefferts crybaby, you just cry me a river! WAH WAH WAH!!!!

Posted by: Jamey at February 8, 2006 7:29 PM

Huh? Anonymous 7:24, your pastiche of clippings from previous posts doesn't even make sense "if your experience has been bad, you have every right to a good opinion" Pleeease!

At least some of the other trolls were entertaining

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 8, 2006 7:34 PM

Jamie--I guess you're not going to take me upon my offer to buy you a PLG house tour ticket. I'm really devistated. WAH WAH WAH!!!!

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 8, 2006 7:38 PM

I think it's always wonderful when someone can show their true maturity in the quality of the posts they write. Jamey must be a very petulant 3 year old by my estimate. Perhaps he would be better posting on "tinytantrum.com." or "Brats R US"

Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at February 8, 2006 7:46 PM

Actually Bob you had every right to be confused since I meant to say "if your experience has been good" I was commenting on people who are upset that someone would defend their neighborhood. Next time I'll try it in English :-)

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 7:48 PM

And rereading again, I meant to refer to those critics of PLG who complain that the defenders of Lefferts are stifling their conversation. So I was actually complaining about the "Jameys" out there. I am now going to begin a course in vernacular english. Well, it may have been inarticulate but at least my vocabulary is bigger than Jamey's :-)

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 8:26 PM

If you ask me you all sound like a bunch of spoiled brats, on both sides of this divide. What crap! To hell with this blog.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 9:47 PM

Sorry Anonymous 7:24/7:48/8:26--I should have realized that it was just one wrong word. You definately DON'T live under a bridge and yes, your vocabulary is much bigger than that of Wah Wah Jamey :-)

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 8, 2006 10:19 PM

Oh my god. It is amazing to read these posts after being away for a few hours. While some "anti" people are a bit hysterical, you PLG people are seriously f--ked up and incapable of having a discussion. The hell with you and your neighborhood. I hope you enjoy the Hasids moving into the new condos--they're probably a bit too tolerant for you, but I'm sure they'll appreciate the "black planet" and maybe even join the midnight craps games on the corners of Flatbush.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 8, 2006 11:26 PM

That last post was really offensive - to Jews and Blacks. I find it hard to believe the anger directed at PLG people who love and defend their neighborhood. You can compare Bob and Jamey's posts and tell me who is more mature? As for Anonymous 11:26 pm - Thanks for introducing bias and bigotry into the mix. And you think PLG defenders are "f**ked up"?

Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at February 9, 2006 2:05 PM

My guess is Anonymous 11:26 pm probably assumed all white sheets came with pointy hoods and eyeholes. >:-{ This is not the place for comments like that.

Posted by: ee-vile at February 9, 2006 2:17 PM

Long time reader, first time poster here.

In my opinion the defenders of Lefferts overreacted in this instance. I don't blame them for loving their nabe and I don't blame them for sticking up for it. However, this all started when someone said they had safety concerns about Lefferts. In my opinion this does not constitute an "attack" on anyone's home. It's just an honest expression of concern and/or fear. Even if this person's concerns are unwarranted, s/he does not deserve to be slammed. However, as soon as this person's post hit the board, people were jumping all over him/her. I found it really weird and somewhat disturbing.

We're all Brooklyners, are we not? We should not be so quick to go on the attack against one another.

Posted by: Carlo at February 9, 2006 3:23 PM

I feel safe in Bushwick but not Bed Stuy, safer in Cobble Hill than Carrol Gardens, safer in Fort Greene than Clinton Hill, safer in DUMBO than Brooklyn Heights. Safety is relative to the individual.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 9, 2006 3:31 PM

Carlo,
the problem is NOT that someone expressed concerns about safety in PLG, but that, as "BX 2 Bklyn" posted yesterday, "...the reason it gets people so irked is that this was a discussion about condos, with some really interesting history thrown in...and out of the blue 'I certainly would not want to live in Lefferts. It gets very dangerous there very quickly. Just not worth the risk in my honest opinion.' Totally unnecessary and not relevant. But certainly calculated to upset people."

Last week , there was a similar comment injected into a discussion about apartment buildings with interesting names. That thread had no bearing on PLG until this gratuitous posting popped up--[see:

http://tinyurl.com/al79c]

It seems to me that a few "trolls", or possibly just one, posting under multiple nicknames, have noticed that they can get a rise out of PLG residents by attacking the neighborhood. I'm not using the word "troll"as an insult --this is an accepted term for this type of behavior which has disrupted internet communities for many years(and besides, (I could come up with far more insulting terms for these individuals if I so desired). I personally am fed up with the senselessly negative comments of trolls and will no longer take their bait and offer an impassioned defense of my neighborhood as a response to such comments--I will merely point out that they are trolls and not to be taken seriously.I will continue to respond to intellegent comments like yours which are an entirely different matter. If I ever mistake a serious comment for a troll, I regret that, but I'm getting better and better at spotting trolls because of all the practice I've had in the last few days.


Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 9, 2006 5:14 PM

Bob, that sounds reasonable. But it is not accurate. Try reading the posts from start to finish and you'll see that Carlo is correct. The post was about a project in PLG and one person made a comment about PLG--and suddenly all of the PLG residents freaked out.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 9, 2006 5:52 PM

Anonymous 5:52,

I certainly HAVE read all the posts and still stand by what I wrote above--we'll just have to disagree about that. I intend to attempt to distinguish between trolls and serious postings like your's.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 9, 2006 5:59 PM

Taken in context, Carlo, Bob is correct. He was referring to previous posts in this thread and another that trashed PLG. If you read them you would know that the "defenders" by and large are people who live there and have first hand experience of the nabe. They simply defended their nabe as they live in it. Instead, the bashers were the ones who freaked and had hissy fits that anyone would claim a different experience. Otherwise, why take offence at someone saying something good about PLG? Since when does a differing (and positive) point of view constitute an attack on our freeedom and civil rights? Yet the bashers went instantly on the attack- calling them censors, and doing a little race bashing too. Then we come to : "This is undoubtedly the most retarded thread I've ever encountered. Little Lefferts crybabies who feel bad about their hood, refusing to let anyone get a real look at it. WAH WAH WAH!!! Go ahead and cry, Lefferts crybabies. Pathetic." as posted by Jamey. If that (or Anonymous' 11:26) post represents mature, intelligent discussion then there is no sense in discussing it further. Bob, on the other hand showed a lot of humor and a tough hide in praising his home. He never attacked anyone. Nor was he the one who ratcheted up the debate by calling names (that was Jamey).

Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at February 9, 2006 7:00 PM

You don't have to convince me that some of the other posters (e.g. Jamey) behaved badly. However, that happened after the 'battle' was well underway. I don't want to argue about it, though. I just wish people would start getting along again.

Posted by: Carlo at February 9, 2006 7:08 PM

Wholeheartedly ME TOO! :-)

Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at February 9, 2006 7:16 PM

Ditto!

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 9, 2006 7:40 PM

I also want people to get along, though it's clearly the Lefferts people who are to blame for this fracas.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 9, 2006 9:20 PM

Anon 9:20, you are way too late. The orchestrated shoot-out is over and a truce has been called. Oh, yeah, guess that doesn't matter 'cause trolls like you thrive on creating blog discord and disorder.

Check it out:

October 21, 2004
The Common Blog Troll
Scientific name: Blogus-trollus
Physical Characteristics: Since the common blog troll is a very elusive species and tends to emulate homo sapiens when confronted in Real Life (the habitat of homo sapiens) it has thus escaped proper description. It is said that its head is covered with green warts and its body largely resembles a cone.

Color: Yellow-green, orange, red, black, white, purple and variations there-of.

Habitat: The common blog troll can be found nosing around any weblog that allows the posting of comments.

Belongs to the common troll group.

The Common Blog Troll is a recently discovered species, most likely evolved from the Common Usenet Troll or perhaps its close cousin, the Common Forum Troll. Its primary source of nourishment is a response to its excrement, which is left in the form of a comment on any weblog which allows comments. Its best not to feed the troll, otherwise it might make itself at home and litter said blog with ever growing piles of excrement. Once the pest moves into a weblog the best way to eradicate it is by the use of "IP Ban" which comes free with many forms of weblog -- if yours does not possess such feature you can always enlist the help of a local system administrator.

http://www.unix-girl.com/blog/archives/2004/10/the_common_blog_troll.html

Posted by: Anonymous at February 9, 2006 10:36 PM

All that person said is that he thought the people from PLG were at fault here. He has a right to that opinion. He was not belligerent or insulting, so don't label him a troll. If anyone is a troll here, it's YOU.

Posted by: Brownnoser at February 10, 2006 7:44 AM

Give it up Brownoser--you and your troll friends have been exposed--go practice your malicious nonsense somewhere else.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 10, 2006 8:37 AM

You mean you've been exposed. You aren't fooling anyone.

Posted by: Brownnoser at February 10, 2006 1:02 PM

No point in these petty tit for tat posts--they're getting pretty tiresome. I will not be posting any more replies to obvious trolls in this particular thread, although I'll continue to post comments in future threads about PLG whenever it seems appropriate.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 10, 2006 2:29 PM

Get thee behind me, Troll!

Posted by: Brownnoser at February 11, 2006 3:31 PM

yeah!

Posted by: yeah! at May 11, 2007 11:01 PM

Ok, what's the deal with the safety of the neighborhood. For the people who feel unsafe, is it just an unsafe feeling? Cat calling, or serious conferentations? I felt iffy about moving to the neighborhood from spanish harlem, and now half these users have scared the bejesus out of me!!??!

Posted by: guest at September 27, 2007 7:18 PM

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