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February 21, 2006

Future of Fulton Mall Crystalizes Race Issues

fulton
NY Observer writer Matthew Schuerman, who also contributes much of The Real Estate, had a piece in the paper last week that spoke with unusual frankness about the issue of race in the borough's process of gentrification and commercial revitalization. The future of the Fulton Mall, he points out, is forcing these issues out on the table. There is a lot of pressure from business leaders and residents of neighboring Brownstone Brooklyn to "improve" the mall--despite the fact that it commands some of the highest retail rents in the city and draws heavy foot traffic in its current state. At the same time, however, side streets are deserted and the upper floors of many of the historic buildings are underutilized as well. Community planners and landlords are confronting the reality that it's going to be hard to attract cute cafes to those side streets and young professionals to buy lofts in an area whose anchor tenants include a "forlorn Macy’s, a Conway, three Payless Shoe Sources, two Foot Lockers and a Kids Foot Locker." And forget about Class A office tenants: "It’s hard to lure Fortune 500 companies to downtown Brooklyn with people selling penis-engraved tooth caps next door," writes Schuerman. Indeed. What to do?
Fulton Mall Fights for Existence [NY Observer]
Upscale Lofts in Mall's Future [Brownstoner]




Posted by Brownstoner at 9:23 AM | Comments (102)
Categories: Development

Comments

I understand the upper floors are 'underutilized' because the high rents encouraged property owners to remove stairs and lease out the groundfloor space instead.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 9:34 AM

Does New York really need that many more yuppie lofts? What is the Atlantic Yards development for if not to give us 80% boutique lofts (and 20% income-triggered housing as well)?

Finally, my impression was that Metrotech was doing very fine in terms of office occupancy rates with a lot of significant tenants -- Chase, Bear Stearns, etc. Is that inccorrect?

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 9:41 AM

It is the property owners who would benefit with those expensive tenants. But they are too busy renting to expensive tenants to worry about this, so why should I?

Meanwhile, all studies show this mall is demographically in line with Brooklyn as a whole, so when they say "improve the mall" they mean make it richer and whiter than the avg Brooklynite.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 9:47 AM

Please be aware that the large corporate clients you mention (Chase, Bear Stearns) are there because of significant incentives paid for by NYC. It is not a free market situation

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 10:05 AM

Um, anon 9:41, the observer article addresses the issue you are trying to point out. If you had not read it, then surely bstoner's intro should have alerted you to that fact.

Posted by: VDH at February 21, 2006 10:20 AM

I remember hearing that this mall was one of the top grossing mall (if not #1) in the U.S. One of the professors from I real estate class that I took at Baruch mentioned this. He also mentioned that one of the supermarket in Bed Stuy was a top grossing supermarket. So....given those economics...I doubt that Fulton Mall will be getting a quick 'make-over' or 'face-lift' any time soon. I suspect that it has 'a place' in Brooklyn; much as Canal Street has its place bordering Tribeca.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 10:45 AM

I agree with anon 10:45. I don't see Fulton Mall changing.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 10:59 AM

Wait wait wait wait! "Penis-engraved tooth caps"?!?!?! Whaaaaaat? hahahahahaha Enough about the class issues, what is up with that! Do you get those... if you're a man? Or a woman? That is NUTS.

Posted by: B61 at February 21, 2006 11:07 AM

Exactly my thoughts upon reading this. Do those things really exist? And, yes, are they bought by men or women? And what exactly do they signify? And how close do you have to get to someone to recognize the engraving on his/her tooth cap? Does anyone really look that closely at someone else's teeth?

I definitely see the birth of a new, ironic hipster trend here -- sure to be the "must" this summer in Billyburg...as Fulton Mall gentrifies itself.

Posted by: babs at February 21, 2006 11:18 AM

The Fulton Mall (and that whole area of downtown Brooklyn) is in dire need of a good ole fashioned gentrification.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 11:21 AM

I like the Fulton mall the way it is now. Why does everything have to be so organized, regulated, standardized and sanitized these days?

Posted by: bolletje at February 21, 2006 11:31 AM

My names is The Cowboy. I wore my penis-engraved toothcaps (one on each incisor) and went to the club. The women just couldn't keep their hands off the cowboy.

Posted by: The Cowboy at February 21, 2006 11:34 AM

i agree with bolletje. i certainly have nothing against upscale neighborhoods, they're fine, but i just feel like brooklyn would just become that much more boring if the fulton mall changed. it creates variety, supposedly the reason we like cities like nyc.

Posted by: diana at February 21, 2006 11:39 AM

Downtown Brooklyn is the reason why people still won't move from Manhattan.

GENTRIFY ME, GENTRIFY ME!

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 11:39 AM

There's no such thing as an ole-fashioned gentrification. Maybe you mean, ole-fashioned segregation

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 11:40 AM

The Fulton Mall should move to the eastern stretches of Fulton.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 12:06 PM

why not just let the free market decide?

Posted by: pietro at February 21, 2006 12:21 PM

There's no need to gentrify Fulton Mall. It will soon be extinct. Ratnerville will soon provide the ultimate in living/shopping experience.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 12:26 PM

My wife shopped at the mall yesterday and I have been going there for years. The stores are always busy and it is a place where all age groups can shop. The Fulton Mall caters to Brooklynites. There are already enough spots in the city that cater to the latte, tofu, s&m, gentrification crowd. Let the working people of Brooklyn have Fulton Mall without seeking the power of the state to confiscate private business in order to displace businesses for the poor to make room for the mostly white wealthy ( not to mention they would replace it with places that are not child friendly). Or should the debate be clarified; how can brownstoner get rid of those pesky Negroes and Puerto Ricans shopping downtown.

and for the one who said "Downtown Brooklyn is the reason why people still won't move from Manhattan." good...stay in manhattan.

Posted by: Umar at February 21, 2006 12:26 PM

I thought the free market did decide and rents in fulton mall are the highest psf in Brooklyn. Now, why does that need gentrification?

Landlords there make a ton of money. Now sure, I can think of more charming tenants. But this is someone's livelihood. What does it matter what I think?

My own work life is not especially charming. But it pays my bills. If some people on blogs told me it would really be cuter if I dressed up as a cobbler or a candlestick maker and made money in a more charming fashion, I would tell them something right back!

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 12:29 PM

Meaning what -- Bed Stuy, Brownsville/Ocean Hill? I agree Fulton St all along Fort Greene east could use some new businesses, but this is sounding a little segregationist. In the meantime it is a definite shopping/dining (yes, some people do consider BBQ's and TGIF dining, particularly if you have teenage kids) destination for a goodly number of people, and if traffic here is indeed among the busiest in the city, there's no reason for any business here to leave, unless it can no longer afford the rent -- which will eventually happen.

At that point you'll have chains like The Gap, Old Navy (same parent co) and Starbucks (an ideal half-way point between Court & Joralemon and Atlantic Terminal) moving in. Fulton Mall will once again be "safe" for white people and its suburbanization will be complete.

The initial error was isolating this area as a mall, thus effectively cutting it off from both Brooklyn Heights and Fort Greene. Landlords, instead of taking any tenant they could get, could have wooed neighborhood businesses and restauruants from the Heights, Cobble Hill, etc., and had people from these areas been encouraged to continue to patronize institutions like Gage & Tollner the area would have evolved differently.

Once again I see the hand of Bruce Ratner in all this -- create a suburban-style mall to go with his suburban-style office complex and add a suburban-style multiplex on Court St.

Unfortunately, most "new" (read affluent, educated, but not necessarily white -- I maintain this is more about class than race, the sad reality being that this does cause racial imbalances within the classes) Brooklyn residents are not attracted to a suburban-style experience, many of them having grown up in that environment and moved here to escape it. For the "underclass" however, it does represent something new, and also better than the disaffected areas in the neighborhoods mentioned above, for example.

Posted by: babs at February 21, 2006 12:29 PM

I am one of the (white) Boerum Hill residents who wish this mall would "improve." I would like Macy's to open more cash registers and fix the chronic computer problems. At Christmas, why do you have to stand in a long line to get a gift box? If this mall is so profitable - the Macy's is always crowded - how come it isn't staffed properly? Why is it always a mess? I shop there all the time and, after each visit, I say I'll never go back. With Target around now, I don't go there as often as I used to but it still the only game in town for a lot of things. The black shoppers don't like the service at Macy's any more than I do.

I am not a fan of chain stores, but the ones that are on the mall are packed. Have you ever looked at the line at the Children's Place? The line, like most of the mall, is mostly African American. Black shoppers are also looking for a better selection a few natural fibers.

This shopping area has the potential to be much more than it is without driving out the businesses that are there. The sidestreets are awful with few businesses on them. A lot of the buildings nearby house state or city offices and are poorly maintained.

The discussion shouldn't have to be an either or since there is already a lot of underused square footage in the immediate area.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 12:32 PM

I think that this dialogue has taken a wrong turn. The issue with downtown Brooklyn is architectural preservation, not gentrification. One does not necessarily lead to the other. The Municipal Arts Society, in conjunction with the Brooklyn Heights Association, has catalogued 28 buildings that desperately need protection. (See the Municipal Art society website). With development pressures raging these buildings are in jeopardy. Downtown Brooklyn has a collection of buildings that represent one of the best "main streets" in America. Whether or not you want the mall to be more upscale is beside the point. The risk here is that these incredible buildings will be razed for tall buildings,or modified irreperably. Landmarking is not expensive to the landlord, and the landmarks preservation commission seems to bend over backwards to help landlords accomodate economic decisions.

Posted by: mhamil at February 21, 2006 12:37 PM

I like fulton mall. It has wide sidewalks and many interesting buildings if you look up above the ground floor. The old dime savings bank should be on a tourist map for photos.

I generally dont shop in any of the stores other than occasionally at Macys.
Probably because the merchandise is geared towards black people (who are of modest means) and I'm white. Thats all good there are plenty of shopping districts to choose from. Not every location needs to geared towards white people or wealthy people (regardless of race).


There are plenty of people who do shop at Fulton Mall. This place does not need gentrification. Gentrification should be targeted in areas that have many empty storefronts.

Fulton mall can be improved without displacing.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 12:43 PM

Wait a minute -- "the...s&m gentrification crowd"? Maybe these are the ideal consumers for those tooth caps mentioned above. I never realized that fetishism was a part of that whole lifestyle, but I guess there is a definite income/bondage accessories correlation...

And who said anything about "seeking the power of the state to confiscate private business"? If anything, Fulton Mall in its current state is a creation of the state, perhaps in order to contain a supposedly less-desirable population in this area and not have them spill over into surrounding, increasingly gentrified areas. "Yeah, that's the idea -- we'll draw them all down here, and they won't scare the white folks in Cobble Hill or Brooklyn Heights and they'll even leave Fort Greene so we can gentrify that too..."

Posted by: babs at February 21, 2006 12:43 PM

great article...puts it all out there for discussion.

fulton street works economically, but it needs to be "improved"?

of course, the area could be a little cleaner, but what shopping district couldn't?

would i want to live next door? of course not, but i also don't want to live in times square, 34th street/7th ave., fulton street (downtown manahattan), fordham road (the bronx) or jamaica avenue (queens). all of these areas are shopping districts and with the exception of times square and madison square garden, become desolate after 8PM and do not offer services for residential folks.

if the residents of bklyn heights and boerum hill want new stores, etc. then why aren't they opening them up? i used to live in bklyn heights and i can't count the number of bad meals i had from the sub-par restaurants in the neighborhood. if there are shops, services, etc. that residents feel they don't have, then tell them to get an SBA loan and go for it.

Posted by: pksloperenter at February 21, 2006 12:48 PM

these discussions are growing tiresome. funny how people assume that the mostly black shoppers on fulton street mall wouldn't want improvements to their shopping experience.

Posted by: pietro at February 21, 2006 12:52 PM

Hear, hear mhamil -- preservation of these buildings is a must. Unfortunately, "gentrification" of the area is part of the process. Landlords, developers, and, yes, members of the LPC need to be convinced of the economic viability of an area in order to proceed with such an action. If landlords think they're getting the best tenants they can in a less-desirable area, they will have no desire for landmarking of their properties, which would imply the destruction of certain of their tenant's non-compliant signage, etc. If developers belieive that the highest and best use of the space is construction of eyesore office buildings and suburban-style shops, instead of restoration of historic structures, they'll be opposing any landmarking actions. And finally, if the LPC members feel that this is a less-desirable area, and thus not "worthy" of preservation, they'll decide to choose their battles elsewhere.

Posted by: babs at February 21, 2006 12:52 PM

I love how (white) people here demonstrate their progressive views - by assuming that Black people wouldnt want to preserve historic buildings, remove honky-tonk atmosphere and attract diversified buisnesses so as to offer more choices than sneakers, fast food and gold.
The baseline assumptions here are truly revealing

Posted by: David at February 21, 2006 12:53 PM

Most shopping districts in brooklyn are dirty. They all need to be maintained better. People either dont use the trash cans provided or the trash cans are over flowing. Either way I am all for improving the cleanliness.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 12:54 PM

pietro,
this discussion is based on the article and the issues it raises.

i'm all for improvement of fulton mall: cleaner stores, more cashiers, more eating option, etc.

but that doesn't seem to be the primary desired outcome.

what i'm seeing is a request to "attract a white clientele" (c) Ursula Hahn via the NY Observer

Posted by: pksloperenter at February 21, 2006 12:56 PM

Who said anything about black people not wanting to preserve anything? The vast, vast majority of landlords, developers, and LPC members are white. If anything, the opinions of the people who shop here are not being considered at all - which is a funny thing in itself, but again characteristic of the socio-economic makeup of most of those who have the leisure to read and post to this board...

Posted by: babs at February 21, 2006 12:57 PM

i agree above- if you walk through the area you see a really amazing "downtown" through all the clutter- the clutter being crazy signs which do nothing but make everything looked crowded and confused. Some sign regulation- don't they already do that in Manhattan? wouldn't hurt and then let the market go where it might- i hate to reduce this discussion to something so simple but everytime i go there i get a headache because of the signs everywhere... it's like bedford falls if george hadn't met clarence...

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 12:59 PM

Anon 12:32 PM brought up a good point. I still don't understand why, in this day and age, with real-estate values sky-rocketing, there are still under-utilized office/residential spaces in downtown brooklyn. Most of the upper floors of these architecturally magnificent buildings that are boarded up, vacant, or seemingly abandoned. It just seems to me like there are a lot of greedy real-estate horders out there that would rather keep their buildings decrepit instead of improving them. I think the city or the business improvement district should enforce new laws that forces these commercial property owners to do something useful with their buildings rather than let it lay waste. The same can be said of 'eastern fulton street'. If manhattan can pass legislation forcing skyscrapers to maintain a certain percentage of 'lighting' at nights, I don't see why brooklyn law makers can't do something similar with fulton street.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 12:59 PM

Would Frasier shop there? No, no, no, a resounding NO! We want Frasiers moving to Brooklyn, not the "element" that Fulton Mall caters to.

If it's not up to Frasier standards, I ain't interested. And neither are Manhattanites.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:00 PM

If they want to truly create a mall that caters to the aforementioned "element," they need create one that only sells chicken, cigarettes and liquor...and put in smack dab in the middle of Brownsville.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:02 PM

"...and for the one who said "Downtown Brooklyn is the reason why people still won't move from Manhattan." good...stay in manhattan."


Exactly.
It's only a matter of time before people start to "push back."

Racist yuppies.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:07 PM

There is a lot more in Fulton Mall than sneakers and gold. I have bought a lot of things from Fulton Mall. Next, who said everyone will view a change as an improvement? I can shop in Manhattan if that's the kind of stuff I wanted to wear; but I do not and a lot of people are the same of me regardless of race. Next, someone mentioned Fulton St going into Bed-Stuy and that area is full of businesses. You can buy furniture there, home appliances, prescription drugs, etc. It also has a national know hub for African-American Sunni Muslims between Nostrand and Franklin and is the cultural epi-center of grassroots hip-hop and you can get West Indian, West African, Arabic, American and traditional black cuisine.
Gentrification is always about race for a previous poster and anything else associated with it. Preserving architecture is important; but not as important as creating a just society for all people.

Posted by: Umar at February 21, 2006 1:07 PM

I think we, as in everyone, should not pay attention to ridiculous comments. If you don't have anything constructive to say why share you warped views of the world.

Brooklyn should always strive to improve the quality of life for all is current and future residents.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:16 PM

Prescription drugs ain't the only kind of drugs you can purchase in Bed-Stuy.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:17 PM

And does the Fulton Mall in its current state contribute to the creation of a just society for all people? And it's great that there are all these businesses on Fulton St, but where are you going to get some decent, well-made, well-priced clothes for your kid (and also have a shopping experience that might keep him entertained and manageable for a bit? The promise of a trip to Toys R Us is extremely powerful!) among the above options? The Children's Place is a great alternative for this, and one in Restoration Plaza would do extremely well, I'd imagine.

Creation of a just society for all people is a much, much larger issue than can possibly be addressed here.

Posted by: babs at February 21, 2006 1:18 PM

All you liberal yuppies pretend to support colored-oriented businesses and non-gentrification, but you're really a bunch of hypocrits.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:21 PM

I guess anonymous blogs are the new white head-dresses, providing security and anonymity to the new kkk.
It's not the 'elements' that ruin the experience of the fulton mall...it's the decrepit buildings, over-crowded signage, etc. (also, the lack of bars/restaurants/book-stores/music stores that stay open after 9pm).

I think the spotlight belongs on the property owners rather than the patrons.
With regards to Frasier and timid Manhattanites....true, cosmopolitan New Yorkers (Manhattanites included) are able to co-exist with all socio-economic groups within a public space. They are as much at home on Canal Street as they are at a dinner party in grammercy park

They've survived all the grittiness of NYC during the 70's, 80's and 90's....it's these people that have made Park Slope, Fort Greene, Boerum Hill the treasured enclaves that they now are.

They are constructive, not shallow and, scared of humanity.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:21 PM

Anonymous 01:07 PM. People have been pushing back and pushing for a long time now.

The yuppies(white w/ money) aren't the only prejudice people in brooklyn. Prejudice people come in EVERY color, religion, and income/wealth group.

Not all yuppies are prejudice.

Lets all improve Brooklyn and make it the best it can be.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:22 PM

They're all hyprocits and NIMBYs.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:23 PM

"All you liberal yuppies pretend to support colored-oriented businesses and non-gentrification, but you're really a bunch of hypocrits.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 01:21 PM"

Don't assume everyone is like the individual poster who makes an offensive comment. Stop stereotyping people based on the actions of individual who look like them.

You are being just as hypocritical.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:28 PM

Would it be nice, if there would be more ethnic diversity in Fulton mall? (Less segregation)

Posted by: malymis at February 21, 2006 1:28 PM

Malymis,

I think fulton street is self-segregated not segregated.

Why does evrything need to be diverse? What is wrong with a ditinct district?

8th Street in Manhattan has a high concentration of shoe stores. It is basically a shoe district.

Chinatown is almost entirely asian owned/operated and patroned.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:35 PM

Frasier Crane is a fictitious character from a sitcom! Why must he be brought into this conversation? And if I recall, Frasier was a kind man who opened his heart to all races, colors and creeds. He had principals. He stood up for the common man, while not being a part of them. He was too intelligent to be racist.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:36 PM

Exactly, malymis, and any imporvement in the Mall is likely to improve diversity -- if, for examply, the service at Macy's weren't so poor more people from surrounding areas would shop there. Unfortunately I fear than Macy's long ago targeted this store to be closed (maybe even at the time they acquired A&S) and therefore devote as little as possible to it by way of resources.

It's a vicious circle: The area sucks, so we don't invest, so we don't attract a diverse element, so the area sucks.

And by diverse element there I mean just that and apply it to everywhere -- the thought of a city full of Frasiers scares the daylights out of me (especially since he's SUPPOSED to be a stereotype (seemingly progressive, well-educated yuppie type, yet really a bundle of neuroses and ignorance), NOT someone to be emulated -- that was the point of the show)! People who agree with and want to be like Frasier & co are as bad as the people who admired Archie Bunker.

Posted by: babs at February 21, 2006 1:38 PM

No one is trying to make Chinatown more diverse. I haven't heard for any call to improve boro park's diversity.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:45 PM

The signage and window displays in Fulton Mall arent going to win any design awards.

Compare fulton mall to fulton street in the South Street Seaport. One is very restriced in appearance and one is completely free to be loud and in your face.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 1:48 PM

As a white Boerum Hill resident who bought in 1988,I obviously have no problem living in a racialy and economicly mixed nieghborhood.In fact the mix of people is a point of Brooklyn pride for me and I would guess most "gentrifiers".
The problem with the Fulton Mall is not that it is too black,but that is too shitty to to ocupy this prime location in the heart of the downtown in a city as great as Brooklyn.

Posted by: anon at February 21, 2006 1:52 PM

Chinatown is a tourist attraction; the city likes to keep it that way. But beyond that, Chinatown and Boro Park are both self-sustaining residential enclaves. Very few people live in the Fulton Mall area, and part of the problem is you couldn't if you wanted to, because as pointed out earlier there's a lack of diversity in the shopping district (where would you buy groceries, for example? Or do your laundry? Or take your clothes to be cleaned?) and nothing open after 9 pm. Fulton Mall is just that - a shopping mall, and like most suburban shopping malls, it closes at 9 pm.

Posted by: babs at February 21, 2006 1:52 PM

And BTW according to recent newspaper articles the shoe stores on 8th St may well soon go the way of the bookstores they replaced...

Posted by: babs at February 21, 2006 1:54 PM

In what could only be described as typical, I will express my views solely for the pleasure of illuminating what I believe is the crux of this matter and other so-called 'market failures'.

In my humble opinion, the residents of NYC should annul all zoning, usage and landmark restrictions, and shutter all the chaotic planning offices.

Planning, although benign sounding, is quite the opposite. For starters, lets introduce the lessons taught by the nobel-winning Frederich Hayek.

Hayek wrote about "fatal conceit", which he described as the overestimation of the minds' abilities to process and utilize information. Like his mentor Ludwig Von Mises's theory that proved the impossibility of socialist economic calculation, Hayek shows that only a spontaneous market order can provide the optimal solution for any given scenario.

The more abstract you go in planning stages, starting from the individual property owner, up through local, regional, state, and national planning stages, the less coherent will be the abilities of those to plan the highest, and best use for any given property.

Like the problem of socialist economic planning and calculation, it's not a matter of using better supercomputers to solve your planning issues; in fact it is an impossibility since prices become irrational when you assimilate vertical stages of production.

For those who are interested in learning more:
F.A. Hayek, The Fatal Conceit
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226320669/

L.V. Mises, Socialism
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0913966630/

Posted by: iceberg at February 21, 2006 1:58 PM

It may be shitty to you 1:52 but that is your opinion. I find most, not all, of the stores on 7th Ave in Park Slope shitty, snooty and overpriced but I am not rallying to have them shut down.

Babs Fulton Mall is also sef-sustaining and I agree with the other poster on this logic lets diversify Kingston in CH, Boro Park, and China Town...yea right.

South StSeaport sucks btw and BK aint Manhattan...good for a teenage date and thats about it.

Posted by: Umar at February 21, 2006 1:59 PM

Amazing and sad how discussions of race, class and economics can bring out the true divisions in this enlightened society.

I've lived in Bklyn for over 20 years, and I remember when they totally redid Fulton Mall in the late 70's. They widened the sidewalks, closed the street to all traffic except buses, put in new street lights, those signs with the time and temp, and other mall like "improvements". At that time, there were many more large department and five and dime stores, including May's, McCrory's, Wertheimer's and a few more that I can't remember. They have all been replaced by smaller subdivided spaces on both sides of the street. A&S (now Macy's) was always the anchor of the area. It was also a better run store, had better merchandise, and a more professional manner. They even had a decent restaurant on the 4th floor. (God, I feel old!)

Fulton Street has always been a working class shopping district. The demographics have just changed into a mostly black and Hispanic shopper. The shops are only catering to the lowest common demominator as far as goods and services, and that is the rub. My family, neighbors and friends have always complained to merchants about the lack of cleanliness, order and the kinds of merchandise they have. They don't change because they don't have to, and to a great degree, because they have no respect for their customers at all, and regard most of us, unless they know us, as potential thieves. Unfortunately it is an unending circle, because there is no incentive to make anything better, and in spite of the shoplifting, dirt, shoddy merchandise, etc, the majority of Fulton St. merchants are still making a pile of money from the very people they distrust and have no respect for. Much more money than they would make from yuppies. More people buy cheap goods, including yuppies, than upscale goods.

Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at February 21, 2006 2:04 PM

Well said, anon 1:52.

Does anyone know why the upper floors of most of these buildings are empty?
Is there any legal or regulatory barrier to opening them up or is just economics?

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 2:06 PM

Unfortunately all these theories neglect basic human traits such as racism, xenophobia, and jealousy, thinking that the almighty dollar (or whatever currency you like) will heal all ills.

It just isn't so. A fully deregulated market economy may work in a completely homogenous population, but it won't work under current conditions. Are these conditions the result of a regulated economy in the past? Perhaps, but actually, the government interfered far less in the economy during the time of the slave trade, for example.

So, instead of interfering and ending slavery, the government should have maintained a "hands off" posture and let it die off of its own accord, which it would have, due to declining profitablility of the plantation system in the face of the industrial revolution.

And then the remaining black people would automatically have become the full equals of their former white masters and everything would have been wonderful because the market would have made sure of that.

Yes.

Posted by: babs at February 21, 2006 2:10 PM

i visit this site often, i am a native new yorker, and was born and raised in brooklyn. fulton street has always been in my life, good, bad or indifferent. it is what it is. would i like macys to step up their game: yes. i would i like more diversity as far as shops goes: yes. do i want it to resemble manhattan: no. brooklyn has always been a mecca on its own...and if those moving in can't relate then maybe you should reconsider your move and stop pretending "you" and "your money" can make things better.

Posted by: christopher at February 21, 2006 2:17 PM

Christopher, why should people be selfish.
Why should someone not want the quality of life to improve. People should be more altruistic and less selfish.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 2:21 PM

Might I also add that another reason Fulton Mall has always been a working class shopping district is that it is accessible by almost every single subway and bus line, thereby enabling the entire borough to shop there by public transportation. By definition, more upscale people are a smaller group, are more likely to have cars, and are more able to shop in Manhattan, or at malls and shopping outside of the city. Those who have advocated sticking the merchants of Fulton Mall out in the boonies to get rid of "those people", and bring in a better crowd, are not only elitist and racist, but unrealistic as well. It may get a Starbucks someday, but Fulton Mall will never be the Mall at Short Hills. Good!

Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at February 21, 2006 2:22 PM

Also, the whole issue about closing up access to upper floors sounds like some type of DOB violation or zoning problem. It seems that should be fairly easy to clear up -- start fining the landlords who have boarded up access to the top floors, and then see if the free market will work to fill out the office space.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 2:23 PM

BTW, Umar, I said those other areas were self-sustaining RESIDENTIAL areas, which Fulton Mall is not. As such, they already have a diversity of shopping choices, including grocery stores, laundries, and dry cleaners.

And I agree with you about the South Street Seaport, which, I've heard, is actually an economic failure -- NYers don't go there, beyond the Wall St lunch crowd, and the tourists who do, don't spend enough money.

Posted by: babs at February 21, 2006 2:31 PM

One reason many upper floors are underutilized could be that any tenant improvements would require bringing the spaces (and thier egress issues) up to code. That means big money and having to take additional space away from the ground floor for the additional fire stairs etc. For spaces which get a fraction of the rents of ground floor spaces.

Posted by: Max at February 21, 2006 2:34 PM

Max,
I disagree with the reasoning behind keeping the top floor vacant. Whoever owns these buildings are making money hand over fist. The least that they could do is update their buildings and try to attract new/additional tenants. There's no explanation for an entire building being boarded up in downtown Brooklyn, which I've seen over and over again on the side streets. If you can't afford to bring your building up to code then you ought to be forced to sell it.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 3:16 PM

Wow!! I'm staying out of it! Enough said.... :-)

Posted by: BrownBomber at February 21, 2006 3:18 PM

i was at the fulton st mall yesterday, walking thru on my way to bklyn heights but also stopped at some choice sneaker stores. at dr jay's as i went upstairs, 4 black kids, all about 10-12 years old were coming down, saw me and the last one said, "hi, mr woo chong."

how is it that such young kids already learn to make such racist/ignorant remarks?

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 3:23 PM

brownbomber-- those remarks have been made by kids since time began. that is a bigger issue, WAAAY beyond the scope of what this board is talking about right now.

Posted by: uhoh at February 21, 2006 3:29 PM

"The problem with the Fulton Mall is not that it is too black,but that is too shitty to to ocupy this prime location in the heart of the downtown in a city as great as Brooklyn."

I think everyone can agree with this statement, regardless of race or class. Well said.

Posted by: BrownBomber at February 21, 2006 3:36 PM

Well, this ran the gamut from ignorant ranters to well-thought out ideas. Since the 70's I have shopped at Fulton Mall, long before other whites did. I happen to like it- you could always find great bargains. Bridge St. used to be filled with great fabric stores, I spent a fortune in the now gone kids clothing stores for my niece and nephew. When white people didn't care about it, the black and lower end merchants did- they stayed through it all. All of a sudden downtown B'klyn has been "discovered" and the manhattanites want to make it mini-manhattan. Let it alone. Fulton St. will evolve on its own, - it always has. While I love all those little chi-chi stores and coffee shops, I don't want Fulton Mall become a caricature of what manhattan thinks Brooklyn should be. Fulton Mall was obviously doing fine before it was discovered- it doesn't need to become a millionaires mile. And for those who love making racist comments and ignorant remarks- instead of showing off how stupid you are, why don't you just mosey on over to kkk.com.You'll feel right at home.

Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at February 21, 2006 3:54 PM

Sorry Brownbomber- I disagree. It don't think it's shitty- it is what it is. It may not be pretty but gentrificationhas gone on in that area for over 40 years and no one gave a damn about it. Why should they now destroy a working class shopping district because they suddenly realize what those merchants have known for years- it's a great location. It's wrong to destroy or put viable businesses out of business because they seem to offend the delicate sensibilities of the "more genteel" (yes I am being sarcastic) folk. Sure it would nice if the service were better, the stores cleaner, etc. etc., but obviously Fulton Mall fulfills a need for people who can't or don't want to pay $4.00+ for a lousy cup of coffee or $6000 for a shower curtain.

Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at February 21, 2006 4:05 PM

Having local politicians pressure the BID to standerize signage somewhat-provide economic incentive to convert upper floors to residential and landmarking many of the historic structures does nothing but help ensure a nicer shopping/living and working area for downtown Brooklyn - it is entirely race neutral.
It just seems totally racist or classist to say well "the blacks" like it the way it is so dont change it as if improving it somehow makes it white or upper class

Posted by: David at February 21, 2006 4:07 PM

Prediction: Brooklyn (and Manhattan) will seem as suburban as LI within the next 5 years.

Posted by: anon at February 21, 2006 4:38 PM

Very well said, Bx2Bklyn. ITA!!!!

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 4:38 PM

Perhaps "Sh*tty" was not the proper term. However, I do agree with the poster that Downtown Brooklyn (including Atlantic Yards, the Business District and Brooklyn Bridge Park) should serve as the "face" of the borough. Brooklyn is a first class city so I can understand the desire by many in the surrounding area to make significant improvements to the Fulton Mall since it's located at the "Gateway to Brooklyn" and gives the outside world it's initial impression of the borough (matter of perception).

Though fruitful and educational, much of this discussion is actually an exercise in futility since the free market system will ultimately decide the fate of the mall. The same market forces that brought Ikea, Target and Fairways to Brooklyn; that's bringing the Nets arena and a plethora of high rise luxury condominiums to Atlantic Avenue, will invariably change the face of Fulton Mall as well. Businesses will be displaced. Consumers will be displaced. All of whom will invariably share the same fate of certain residents of Prospect Heights and Fort Greene with respect to Ratnerville. It's all a matter of social and economic Darwinism.

My two cents.

BB

Posted by: BrownBomber at February 21, 2006 4:40 PM

Used to walk through the Mall at night during the early 90's on my way home after class. Found out from one of my teachers that at the time, a number of the buildings were owned by the proprietors of some of the larger "junk stores" (that's how we referred to them back then).

The feel of the mall definitely changed with the loss of Mays, Martin's and Korvette's (all department stores that catered to various income levels) and the results have been that stores now cater only to a limited type of consumer (young and urban and most definitely not only Black)

As far a utilizing unused space, the mall is the way it is because the property owners want it to be that way. They like the fact that the businesses they lease space to do a tremendous business and don't ask for much in the way of facilities. The owners figured out a long time ago that poor people of any color need a place to shop too, and providing services like layaway which have disappeared from most suburban chains will keep the folks coming back.

Should the mall change? Maybe. I stopped shopping there once I stopped desiring sneakers and jeans as the main staple of my wardrobe. But if Atlantic Terminal is any indication, the folks that shop there will continue to shop there if the stores change. Fulton Street is a staple to folks from Brooklyn.

Posted by: Oh Lord! at February 21, 2006 5:02 PM

Bx2Bklyn -- Bridge Street still has some fabric stores, but I am not enough of sewer/stitcher to know whether they are any good.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 5:03 PM

If the city or the downtown BID wanted to attract new businesses to the Fulton Mall area, especially to the upper floors of some of those great buildings, they could target businesses that wouldn't necessarily need storefronts, such as lawyer's offices, accountanting firms, architects, medical professionals, publishing and the like. Of course, all this depends on the building owners making their buildings attractive, up to code and livable. I have a feeling that some of those upper spaces haven't been seen in years, which as a brownstone owner, makes no sense. If you only live on the first floor, and never check above you, or on the roof, how do you know the whole place isn't going to come down on you? Many of those buildings are at least 100 years old, the newest ones are from the 1920's and I especially worry about the ones with the decorative cast iron and tin rooflines. The building owners can certainly afford to upgrade and fix. They should be forced to, but that won't happen until one of them has a fire, or the roof caves in.

In my first post, I forgot to mention the king of 5 and dimes: Woolworths. That was one of the busiest stores on Fulton St, and also had a thriving lunch counter business, as well.

Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at February 21, 2006 5:13 PM

I have 40 years living near the mall. I know many people that have been mugged/hurt on or around the mall. The mall predators know there territory well. But I believe, this mall should be preserved it should be disassembled and reassembled on rikers island or give a corner in far rockaway, where it would be better appreciated for its qualities.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 5:13 PM

The fabric stores on Bridge now are a far cry from the days when there were only 3 or 4 business on that street that were NOT fabric or trim stores. You used to be able to get first quality designer goods at a great price, not just the poly and plastic blends that are there now. I was a costume designer back then, and did entire shows from just shopping on Bridge. Those were the days!

Posted by: Crown HeightsProud at February 21, 2006 5:19 PM

Anon. 5:13 - thank you for sharing. That really helped the discussion.

I don't know why I let the trolls get to me.

Posted by: CrownHeightsProud at February 21, 2006 5:23 PM

IMHO, these things should be done to Fulton Mall to attract ALL shoppers.
1) Wish we could Photoshop all the building facades to make them a) cleaner and b) brighter. Really. There are some gems on the street. Also tone down the building signs a bit; make them more human scale. And Marty, get the city to light up downtown Brooklyn. That's why people of all kinds get frightened, since the streets are in dire need of some serious wattage. Especially on nearby Flatbush, Livingston, etc.
2) More trash bins, more regular pickup.
3) The market is going to determine what stores are on Fulton. People from the entire borough shop there, then go home on the bus or subway.
Don't kill the Fulton Mall; clean it up and let it evolve.

Posted by: dw438 at February 21, 2006 5:33 PM

5:13,

Why bother moving it to Far Rock?
In a few years, all the yuppies are going to need some beach front homes.... leading to the "discovery" of Far Rock, the removal of the "bad element" and with it, they'll be forced to move the mall again.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 5:44 PM

Thank you BrownBomber for expanding on my original point.
It seems to me that the Fulton Mall is what it is today not because the free market was allowed to work,but rather it is a result of past "urban planning"that was perpetrated on many American cities by men who were not lovers of cities and were racists to boot.Our beautiful cities were turned into dumping grounds for those who were to be excluded from the suburbs.
I was not raised in Brooklyn,I chose to live here so I'm not one of those who yearn for the days of "dem bums",but I must say I feel a twinge of sadness whenever I see old photos of downtown with the movie palaces lining Flatbush ave. and the crowds of all races proudly streaming through the heart of thier WORLD CLASS city.THIS was the downtown that sprang from unfettered market forces.This is what was taken away by Moses and his kind.
We are now at a time and place when Brooklyn will be developed and changed for better or worse.What is sure is that Brooklynites will be living with these changes for decades to come.Lets hope that archectural preservation,and archectural standards for new buildings and respect and understanding of Brooklyns multiculturalism will all be part of a real URBAN plan.

Posted by: anon at February 21, 2006 5:45 PM

anonomous 05:44 PM keep on hating

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 6:06 PM

Excuse me anon at 5:45- what was that comment about Moses and his kind? That comment certainly undercuts your call for multiculturalism. Well- I'll just put it down to your obvious ignorance about Jews, history, civil rights and economics. By the way architectural is spelled with an "i". Perhaps you should have finished the grade school you attended in Nazi Germany. By the way, you can get white sheets very inexpensively in Conway's and the thread to finish off the edges of the eyeholes in the hood at one of the fabric stores on Bridge St. Thought you'd like to know.

Posted by: awjf at February 21, 2006 6:07 PM

CrowhHeightsProud, unfortunately anyone can post useless and offensive comments. Ignore it or call him/her out on it for what it is.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 6:09 PM

to awjf 6:07 I was refering to Robert Moses.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 6:14 PM

awjf-

The reference to Moses is a reference to Robert Moses, the master planner of post WW-II New York, not the Receiver of the Torah on Mt. Sinai. Relax people!

Although the image of Moses leading the fleeing Tribes of Israel through the Fulton Street Mall makes for a compelling mental image.

Posted by: GrandPa at February 21, 2006 6:16 PM

awjf you are so ignorant.

Read the Power Broker. Robert Moses for all his grand projects also destroyed viable neighborhoods.

5:45's cooments didn't have any anti-jewish remarks.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 6:16 PM

Wow! Gee- we're not biased in our prejudices, all you anonymouses. Equal opportunity hating for all. Sad you have to use a really interesting forum about Brooklyn to vent and spew. Says a lot more about you than it does for the people you are insulting.And you're cowards to boot- use a name why don't you?

Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at February 21, 2006 6:16 PM

Moses parts the traffic of Flatbush avenue and low and behold the promise land of the Fulton St Mall.

Now don't make a cartoon about that.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 6:18 PM

I may be ignorant but you certainly didn't misunderstand what I said. Considering the tone of this thread I hardly think misunderstandings would be a surprise. If I did I of course apologize, but having read racial and anti-semitic comments on other threads you can see why I reacted. And yes- I know exactly who Robert Moses is- the man who destroyed a lot of beautiful neighborhoods.

Posted by: awjf at February 21, 2006 6:21 PM

AWjf

I haven't read any anti-jewish comments on brownstoner.

I did read you calling someone a Nazi and a KKK member.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 6:24 PM

Annon 5:45 was referring to Robert Moses a historic figure not to Jews as nation.
It happened that Robert Moses was a racist and damaged some parts of NYC beyond repair like no one else in history.
It was the worst of the urban planning possible. It happened the he was a Jew as well but it has nothing to do with Jewish people as a group.

Posted by: malymis at February 21, 2006 6:26 PM

Anon 6:18- but then it would get published in Denmark and I would have to boycott something Danish.;-) (Cherry is my favorite). Not to make light of anyone's feelings or to condone disrespecting other people's religions but we could lighten up a bit here. What say we call a truce folks? We've got a lot to learn from one another- and I mean good things.

Posted by: Bx2Bklyn at February 21, 2006 6:28 PM

There were threads last week that were closed down by brownstoner. I'll admit to being overly sensitive on occasion and I also find the racial remarks upsetting and unnecessary too. We all live here- that's what makes NYC so great- its diversity. When that's gone- what is left? DisneyYork?

Posted by: awjf at February 21, 2006 6:38 PM

I confess that I just can't take the heat of active engagement in Brownstoner shoot-outs on a daily basis. As such, I've been sitting this one out. But, so far, it's been rather encouraging to see the way this thread has developed. Notwithstanding a few ignorant trolls and some genuinely misguided folk here and there, the quality of discourse on this thread has been better than most others on this forum that have previously dealt with gentrification issues of race and class.

Of course, biased as I am on this subject, I'm especially appreciating Babs, CrownHeightsProud, Bx2Bklyn and some of you anons (get out of the closet!) for making some really excellent points. Also to Grandpa and Anon 6:18 for bringing some much needed levity to the table. I'm still chuckling over those images. Thanks for that!

Posted by: GardensGal at February 21, 2006 6:39 PM

There's this great part of manhattan, Broadway between 29th and 25th, that's all wholesale vendors. It's not a swanky shopping strip. But it's in the middle of what's becoming one of the swankiest parts of manhattan -- Madison Square Park and its immediate environs are upscaling faster than you can say condo.

Those wholesale vendors won't be here much longer. They're small-time enterpreneurs, they can't compete with the giant stores inching their way up from Union Square (what a mall that is!). I will miss those vendors. They draw a very loud and fun crowd, especially on the weekends when it's swarming with people from all over the NY area buying "crap" to sell elsewhere for a lot more money.

(Perhaps they sell it at the fulton mall.)

My point, though, is: you can't preserve/conserve a fluid market.

BUT: you CAN and MUST conserve/preserve a vibrant community, be it by encouraging the renovation of run-down beauties that reflect the roots of the community's history, or encouraging small, local businesses to flourish. Not corporations -- but businesses, where people within the community can make a living from their success.

Corporations dont give a f-k what color anyone is; but if the market is aiming at white 30 something, they will become a segregating power.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 21, 2006 7:47 PM

Another one bites the dust. It was good while it lasted.

Posted by: Brownstoner at February 21, 2006 8:30 PM

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