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January 30, 2006

Sunset Park: Land of the Affordable Brownstone

As has been discussed in this space before, Sunset Park offers an impresssive assortment of housing opportunities, especially for those looking to stay below the million dollar mark. Like many nabes now undergoing renaissance, Sunset Park, which stretches south of Park Slope down to Bay Ridge, has seen a big turnaround. One of the city's most diverse areas, Sunset Park is also expected to get a lift from the waterfront development projects just getting underway that will include ballfields, lawns and bike paths. Those who have already bought in are pleased as punch:

"We got a much bigger space for not much more than we sold our condo for in Park Slope," said Joe Reister, an academic adviser who bought a three-story brownstone on 45th Street with his wife, Shannon Laughlin, a year and a half ago. "We did some work — don't get me wrong," he said. "But the outside looks like something out of Sesame Street."

The only negative the Times article notes is a lack of parking. How about that commute? The Times the article quoted seemed to give an overly optimistic impression by citing only the time on the subway. How do residents find it?
Hunt for Brownstones in Sunset Park [NY Times]

Addendum: Check out the Times article on Living In Sunset Park from 2001 Here. Thanks, Joyce.

Comments

I would put the headline more like "Sunset Park, the land of affordable brownstones and scores of hookers etc."
I think you should realize that there is a good reason for the Brownstones that are cheap.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 9:08 AM

To Anon at 9:08, yes Sunset Park has seedy areas but they are down by the BQE at 3rd ave where the sex shops are. This isn't what Sunset Park is all about.

2nd and 3rd aves in Park Slope have been know for prostitution for many years. That hasn't kept the property values on 6th and 7th aves down, it's a world away. The same is true in Sunset Park.

Regarding the commute, the express train at 36th street will get you to midtown faster than the F from 7th Ave. Plus you have the option of transfering at the Atlantic center to whatever train you need so you have many more commuting options.

Posted by: Ben at January 30, 2006 9:36 AM

I like Sunset Park. It\'s seedier than some of the surrounding areas, but not as dangerous as, say, Lefferts. It\'ll be interesting to see what Sunset Park looks like five years from now.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 9:57 AM

I agree that Sunset Park seems safer than Lefferts, but it just doesn't have that crisp, pristine housing stock. That will always be Lefferts draw. Beautiful bones for less than a Slope or Heights Price. You will find more aesthetes battling it out in Lefferts, more families who just want life a bit easier in Sunset Park (good school, too) - that's my prediction anyway.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 10:18 AM

Why does Sunset Park "seem" safer than Lefferts? Oh, right, because there aren't as many Black people. Only Black people commit crimes.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 10:25 AM

Oh come on...Sunset Park is far from lily white. It has a large hispanic population and is, in general, nicely mixed. And yes, it is safer than Lefferts. I have spent a lot of time in both nabes. I am not saying that Lefferts is a hell hole or anything like that, but it is not as safe as Sunset Park. Why are you Lefferts people so damned sensitive??? No one is putting you down. Get over it.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 10:37 AM

yup, the day has finally come when every neighborhood is considered "affordable" when 1 Million is defined as the top price and not the floor...Damn...

Posted by: djr at January 30, 2006 10:42 AM

I am in Lefferts and my girlfriend lives in Sunset Park. I agree that Sunset Park is safer than Lefferts, but the difference is not huge.

Posted by: MastaBlasta at January 30, 2006 11:00 AM

Good point by Anonymous above that Hispanic people also commit crimes (particularly fashion crimes) (har har).

What about Chinese people? I've heard that Sunset Park is the third Chinatown. How strong is their presence compared to everyone else?

Posted by: Fred at January 30, 2006 11:11 AM

Lefferts alarm! Lefferts alarm! I predict this thread hits 150 posts by 5 p.m.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 30, 2006 11:22 AM

Nothing generates more excitement on this board than the killing fields of Lefferts Manor.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 11:42 AM

8th Ave is Brooklyn Chinatown
5th Ave is more Hispanic
6th and 7th Aves are more residential with a few stores thrown in.

Posted by: Ben at January 30, 2006 11:42 AM

I have comments about Sunset Park not Lefferts.

I find it interesting that people describe Sunset Park as diverse.

At the top of the hill it is Sunset Heights (8th) which is almost entirely Chinese.

The bottom of the hill (4th Ave) is almost entirely Hispanic.

This neighborhood is not diverse it is two distinct communities based on race.

Diverse does not mean the absence of white people. Diverse is when many different ethnicities live together

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 11:44 AM

Well 11:44 AM, you just described a community that has Hispanic and Chinese populations living together. So why isn\'t that diversity?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 11:52 AM

The two distinct communities live separately. It is two neighborhoods not one.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 11:58 AM

The two distinct communities live separately. It is two neighborhoods not one.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 11:58 AM

Sunset Park has some great cheap Mexican food and Chinese food.

Unfortunately, the commute is horrendous.

Also, Brownstoner seems to imply that Sunset Park may be a better "deal" than other parts of Brooklyn since many homes their can be bought for less than a million bucks.

I, however, disagree. Three hundred percent price appreciation in the last couple years does not spell deal to me, especially considering the need to take a bus from many areas to get to the subway.

I love ethnic food more that most people, but getting to work in downtown Manhattan would be way to much of a headache for me.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 12:10 PM

I thought the R train went through Sunset Park.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 12:17 PM

To all Urban Pioneers,
Your white ethnic ancestors couldn't get out of most of Brownstone Brooklyn fast enough in a mad rush to the good life in the suburbs. In came all of those pesky, crime ridden, poor minorities who just don't appreciate where they live, and what they are living in. Now you want the neighborhoods back. You want those gorgeous houses back. You want good schools, restaurants, Starbucks. The reasons why those things don't exist there already aren't your concern, or your fault. If only "they" would just sell their houses for reasonable prices, and leave. It doesn't matter where. After all, you've "discovered" this great neighborhood. What you need is a housing neutron bomb. Get rid of the people and start over. Wouldn't that be great?

Get real, kids. We live in a complex, multiethnic, economically stratified city. You can have cheap, you can have the illusion of safety, you can have amenities, you can have fine homes. Very few of us can have all of them rolled into one package. You have to choose what means more to you, and act accordingly. It may not be right, or fair, but that's how it is. If you feel unsafe in SP, or PFG, or BS, then don't even look for a home there. Please just say it's not for you, and move on without tearing it down with poorly disguised code words. Best of luck in finding your dream home.

Posted by: Bunky at January 30, 2006 12:25 PM

Bunky,

"Your white ethnic ancestors..."

1. Well, glad to see you're not throwing around code words. And it's good to know that we can finally blame American racism on the white ethnics, not the innocent, unfairly maligned WASPs who founded the country and wrote slavery into the constitution.

2. I just re-read this thread, and I fail to see the hating on Sunset Park. I see somebody complaining about the commute, which is not something anyone would blame on any ethnic group. I see someone actually complaining that the neighborhood is not ethnically diverse *enough.* And I see posts saying that Sunset Park is relatively safe. They're comparing it to Lefferts, which maybe is what bothers you, but what, should it be off-base to compare neighborhoods here? Should we have an "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything" rule?

Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 30, 2006 12:42 PM

Linus- I posted at 11:44.

I didn't complain that Sunset isn't diverse enough. I stated that Sunset is two distinct "self-segregated" neighborhoods, one Asian (Sunset Heights) and one Hispanic (Sunset Park).

I pointed out that people increasing have rendered the word diverse into meaning devoid or very little white people an mostly non white people.

Diverse means ethnically mixed yet very much integrated.

In reality most Brooklyn neighborhoods are "self-segregated" and not diverse.

Posted by: anon11:44 at January 30, 2006 1:16 PM

Linus,
If you know your city history, most of the neighborhoods we are talking about were originally settled by white ethnic peoples. This is not code, nor racist, nor a judgement on them, it just is. At no time did I blame them for the problems in this city, or for slavery, for God's sake. WASP's can certainly insert themselves in there, fine with me.

I think it's just time we all stop pussyfooting around issues of race and neighborhoods. It's ok if someone doesn't want to live in a hood, because they are afraid of black (or Hispanic, or Asian, or white)people. It may not be politically correct, or even admirable, but it is real for them. I just get really tired of the "not feeling safe." comments. Just say the nabe is not for you and move on. As a minority myself, I'd rather be insulted to my face, than smothered with innuendo that means the same thing. Let's all say what we really mean, and then deal with fixing the situation, if only as intelligent people. I'm not trying to be a hater.

Posted by: Bunky at January 30, 2006 1:21 PM

I'm black and I loved Sunset Park. It is racially stratified[hispanic/chinese], but so is (or was) Park Slope [all white 7th vs. lower slope Hispanic 5th]. There are alot of white real estate agents thrown in for good measure. Everyone seems to like each other!!

Posted by: Tommy at January 30, 2006 1:29 PM

Bunky,
I don't think anyone in this thread has said that they do "not feel safe" in Sunset Park. Most people have said the exact opposite. I am not sure where you are getting any of this from. Perhaps you meant to post these comments on the "Open House Picks" forum from this last weekend.

By the way, I haven't spent a lot of time in SP; but the few times I have, I thought it was an absolutely gorgeous neighborhood. At these prices, I think it is a good value compared to many other neighborhoods.

Posted by: veggieburger at January 30, 2006 1:37 PM

Bunky,

1. Fine enough re: history, but what you wrote was "Your white ethnic ancestors." That says that the people complaining *today* about these neighborhoods are, specifically, white ethnics, and white ethnic racists at that. Maybe it was just your word choice, but that's how it reads.

2. I'm not so naive as to think that "safety" complaints can't be veiled racism. But you can call a neighborhood unsafe without being a racist. Some neighborhoods do have more crime than others.

A lot of unsubtantiated crap gets thrown around here, though, I'll agree with you on that much.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 30, 2006 1:40 PM

Also, ditto what veggieburger said. This thread has been pretty SP-positive, so I don't get what originally irked you, unless it's people saying they prefer SP to Lefferts. (In which case, choosing a Hispanic/Asian neighborhood over a largely black one equals white kind of racism exactly?)

Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 30, 2006 1:42 PM

I also do not know what is bothering you unless some of the remarks about Lefferts got to you. However, I would be hard pressed to call someone a racist because they think Lefferts is dangerous. Lefferts certainly is dangerous, but it is not dangerous because the skin of its inhabitants happens to be largely black in color. White neighborhoods are not always safe. When they are safe, it is not because they are white. There are complicated socioeconomic explanations of these phenomena. The races involved are incidental.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 2:08 PM

Hey, maybe complaints about safety are actually complaints about, well, safety? Just a thought.

Posted by: Park Sloper at January 30, 2006 2:09 PM

Bunky, you may claim that you rather be insulted to your face, but you come off as someone who feels entitled to insult people to their face.

I do not want to be insult to my face and I do not insult people to their face.

If someone doesn't want to live in an area because they are white-a phobic, black-a phobic, hispanic-a phobic, asian-a phobic, then they are prejudice.

If someone doesn't want to live in a place where they are at risk of getting shot or mugged they are cautious.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 2:11 PM

5th Ave retail corridor in Sunset Park is almost entirely 99cent stores.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 2:21 PM

I live in Sunset Park and I really get a kick out of the posters who state things about the nabe, when they actually don't live there and actually have very limited knowledge about the place.

First, the commute is definitely better than the majority of Parl Slope, for example. If you live in the north slope near the 2,3,4,5 etc, then you have a quick ride to Manhattan. But, the commute from 7th Ave in the slope is terrible. I lived there for over five years and I can say from experience that the commute from Sunset Park is faster. I travel to midtown every day - the R to the N or D is significantly faster than the commute to midtown on the F train.

The nabe is very much split between the primarily Mexican area of 5th Avenue and Chinese are of 8th avenue. However, there is a lot of diversity. My wife and I live in a brownstone - we have an Indian family to our left that rents their upper apartment to a Dominican family. On our right is a brownstone occupied by white and black families. The rest of the block includes a smorgasboard of folks. We have many Chinese and Latin families living on the same block - however Mexicans out number the Chinese given our proximity to 5th Avenue.

Many blocks include beautiful brownstones and limestones. Check out the blocks in the mid fifties between 4th and 5th and the best blocks (in my opinion) - 47th and 48th between 5th and 6th avenues. The area on 6th avenue between 45th and 50th is really nice too as is 45th between 4th and 5th.

The interesting thing about the NYT article is that the people interviewed stated that parking was their primary concern. I honestly don't see as much of a problem as in Park Slope. I found that year after year, the parking in the slope became worse and worse.

The big proplem with Sunset park is the store selection on 5th avenue - too many of the same kind of restaurants and 99 cent stores. If you want to grab a bite and are not looking for cheap Chinese or Mexican food, you have to go to Bay Ridge or the Slope. There simply are no cafes/restaurant to go to that serve a standard diner fare. If you want to go out and grab a bagel and a cup of coffee, you can't.

I think this will all change soon, though. It seems that there are a lot of people who live in SP that would love to stay in their neighborhood to shop, but feel a better selection awaits them in other neighborhoods. Honestly, I believe there is a great deal of opportunity for small business owners to open up on 5th ave and grab the consumers that, too often, leave for other neighborhoods to do their shopping.

Sunset Park will never be like Park Slope. But, it is a great neighborhood and will get even better. Give it a try, and don't believe the stories about the commute being bad - it is simply NOT true.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 2:22 PM

anon 2:22 --

you're right -- the r to the n or d is much faster than the f. but i live in park slope and take the r to the n or d all the time. but i like sunset park, more power to you.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 30, 2006 2:27 PM

I think Sunset Park has a great future. When all of those diaper-wearing tots in Park Slope enter their teens, many Park Slope residents will seek a way out. And they (along with their money) will find their escape in places like Ditmas Park, Midwood, Sunset Park and Bay Ridge. I am ready to jump ship now, and am currently looking in Ditmas (but would certainly consider Sunset Park).

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 2:46 PM

Linus and Veggieburger and others,
Maybe you are right, I am bringing my anomosity from the Prospect Lefferts thread over, and if so, I apologize. I tend to be oversensitive to issues I feel are not faced head on. I really like this site, and as a newcomer, do not want to wear out my welcome. I'll keep my rabble rousing to relevant places, which pop up a lot, proving that gentrification is a complicated and contentious issue.
I also think Sunset Park is a really interesting neighborhood, and hope it only flourishes.

Posted by: Bunky at January 30, 2006 2:49 PM

I completely agree with the comment noted above: '...a lot of people who live in SP would love to stay in their neighborhood to shop, but feel a better selection awaits them in other neighborhoods .... there is a great deal of opportunity for small business owners to open up on 5th ave...'

Restaurateurs, bar owners, take note! A decent bagel+coffee shop and a nice restaurant are bound to succeed.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 3:08 PM

Bunky, :)

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 3:12 PM

People.....every time I read the off topic postings about PLG,BS,FG,BR or SP I can't help hearing a song from the musical Avenue Q. It's song #5 called "Everyone's A Little Bit Racist".I think if you get the chance give it a listen, and maybe we can get back on topic.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 4:50 PM

04:50 PM, have you listened to that song recently? Why don\'t you give it a listen and then let us know when you are done. Then maybe we can get back to discussion of substantive issues on this board.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 5:05 PM

OK I'm done.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 5:11 PM

Why SP "seems" safer to me than Lefferts.

1. Lefferts, except for Flatbush Ave, always seems really quiet...too quiet. I don't see many people, of any color, walking along the residential streets. There are no major thoroughfares that break up the (beautiful) residential area, which means less foot traffic, which makes me uncomfortable. Sunset Park bustles and seems a little bit more social, family oriented.

2. Flatbush Ave. does bustle, but it has a constant police presence (good and bad), and I have seen a lot of "action" in this area. I don't care what color criminals are - I just prefer not to be around them.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 31, 2006 9:07 AM

Most people who live in Lefferts have too much sense to walk the streets. They have their beautiful homes, but they are careful not to come out of them unless it is to jump in a car and speed away. I could never live that way.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 31, 2006 9:36 AM

Reading this blog, it seams to me Lefferts is the worst nabe to buy/invest in Brooklyn.
I like the brownstoner, but this constant Lefferts-trashing is weird.
With all your Lefferts bad mouthing, it actually might become the most affordable nabe in brooklyn very soon.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 31, 2006 11:15 AM

i think lefferts is really the worst area besides brownsville east ny and canarsie. it really is a dumping hole. also include bed stuy, crown heights on that list, these areas are really worthless. i would not care if they are ugly or beautiful no person in there right mind would raise a family there. with the housing bubble starting to deflate i think these area will drop quickly . lefferts is a garbage pit and whoever bought there is in for a shock when they go to sell in a yr from now

Posted by: Anonymous at January 31, 2006 6:37 PM

I lived in Sunset Park for a year and ran away as fast as I could. I did not like the bleakness of the area - I was too close to 4th Avenue, which is not very nice at all. My house was beautiful and my neighbors were great, but the area had no decent grocery shopping, no good library, no services. No place to hang out and have a cup of coffee and work or read, no decent bar, none of what makes New York a pleasant place to live.

I agree that it is two communities, self-separated by ethnicity. Not being Latino or Asian, I didn't fit in, and no one talked to me much except the other "outsiders" in my building. And one of them had it even worse. Want to hear about racism? Read on. My friend and neighbor was Middle Eastern. She had a young son whom she used to bring to the playground on 7th Avenue in the mid-50's. The other moms there were mostly from the Chinese community, and they would physically drag their kids away from hers, and yell epithets at my olive-skinned friend.

On safety, I have to agree that it's very safe. I never had a problem coming home very late at night along 4th Avenue. But the commute sucks - it's not so much the distance, it's the fact that the N/R remains one of the worst subway lines in town. The N is the only train that runs quickly there; the R takes forever, and neither train runs well. Service changes often weren't announced at local stations. Prices to buy there are way too high for an area with so few services.

Posted by: ZF at February 13, 2006 4:57 PM

so here's a question - is bay ridge a decent alternative to sunset park? it too uses the r line and it does seem that the r line doesn't run with any consistency outside of regular commuting hours - what a pain. so is that an impediment to bay ridge ever being "hot"? what do residents do? do they take the n train to 36th street and get a car service the rest of the way home?

Posted by: jeanmarine at July 13, 2006 8:49 PM

« Monday Linkage National Magazine Has Finger on Local Pulse »

January 30, 2006

Sunset Park: Land of the Affordable Brownstone

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