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January 27, 2006

Open House Picks

house Park Slope
511 Fourth Street
Corcoran
Sunday 2:30-4:30pm
$2,600,000
GMAP P*Shark

house Park Slope
609 6th Street
Brown Harris Stevens
Sunday 12-2pm
$2,395,000
GMAP P*Shark

house Park Slope
380 Sixth Avenue
Aguayo & Huebener
Sunday 12-2pm
$1,795,000
GMAP P*Shark

house Prospect Lefferts
26 Midwood Street
Brown Harris Stevens
Sunday 12:30-2:30pm
$1,225,000
GMAP P*Shark

house Windsor Terrace
194 Ocean Parkway
Sommers Real Estate
Sunday 12-2pm
$1,200,000
GMAP P*Shark

house Williamsburg
362 Union Avenue
Sotheby's Int'l
Sunday 1-3pm
$975,000
GMAP P*Shark

Comments

"Windsor Terrace" house is nice, but firmly in Kensington and on a very busy street. And I don't think it's landmarked.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 11:57 AM

The 6th street and 4th street houses are fantastic. They are perfect examples of what is so fabulous about Park Slope. Note the floors.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 12:08 PM

The house on Midwood is fantastic. It is an example of what is so fabulous about Lefferts Manor archictecture and how the homes have remained pristine since they were built 100 years ago.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 12:43 PM

millionaires club,
how 'bout some cheap stuff

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 1:20 PM

Ocean Pkway is not "Windsor Terrace" by any stretch of the imagination. I think it is really obnoxious that a broker would say a house is in one neighborhood when it is clearly in another just to lure prospective buyers who don't know any better. I feel like calling the guy -- who by the way, I've dealt with and is a real fast-talking, arrogant jerk -- and yelling at him that people who are looking at houses are often trying to cram in many viewings per day and it is a waste of their time.

Posted by: anonymous at January 27, 2006 1:29 PM

I don't think the Lefferts house is particularly attractive, and certainly is not one of the more picturesque architectural styles that can be found in that neighborhood. I love many of the houses in Lefferts, and this would not even tempt me.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 1:33 PM

What are the borders of Windsor Tarrace?
Ocean Parkway house looks well connected: expresway goes almost to the doorsteps.

Posted by: malymis at January 27, 2006 1:45 PM

I believe the borders of Windsor Terraces are Prospect Park Southwest, Prospect Park West, McDonald Avenue and (this is the one I;m not sure about) either Ft. Hamilton Parkway or Caton Ave.

Posted by: anonymous at January 27, 2006 1:53 PM

Love the millionaires club comment: hey, this is brownstone brooklyn, what planet are you on?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 2:07 PM

I know a couple of families who live in those center-stair homes on 4th Street and they are BEAUTIFUL! This house looks pristine and if I could afford it I'd buy it immediately.

On the other hand, I think the interior of the Lefferts house looks hideous!

Posted by: Park Sloper at January 27, 2006 2:13 PM

4th street home. Great stairwell. Dig the rear wall wood burning fireplace......All you need is a best seller and and a movie deal and this house could be yours.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 2:14 PM

HEY ANON 2:07

There are many B'Stones in Kennsington, Crown Heights and Bedstuy (plus other places) that are less than a million ... plus one could live on one floor of a coop made out of a B'Stone in CG, PS, FG and CH.. does that still qualify for your club?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 2:38 PM

The "Windsor Terrace" house is in Kennsington, but much to my surprise it really does have Landmark Designation as per pshark. Go figure.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 2:53 PM

The Lefferts Manor house is horrible--hardly any details and a disgusting ceiling in the center parlor. And that price! Please! You could get a perfectly nice coop in the Slope or even the upper west side for that much. Who would spend that much for an ugly house in Lefferts? People (or at least realtors) are out of their minds.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 3:13 PM

Yes, windsor terrace house is not windsor terrace

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 4:42 PM

Poster 3:30, are you whacked? You think someone who is looking at a 3,000 square foot private home wants to live in a co-op? Maybe you don't like the seller's style, and I know some of you love to hate Lefferts, but I think you are out of your mind for posting that this house is horrible. I personally love the block that this house sits on, and I'm seeing some lovely details. A change in paint color wouldn't hurt, and skim coating a ceiling costs less than $500 (I just did one).

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 4:43 PM

Forget a co-op--you could get an honest-to-God house of the same square footage in Park Slope, either in the South Slope or near 5th Avenue, for that price or awfully close. I know the square footage is given as 3,000, but look at the floorplan and it amounts to 3 floors plus a finished basement.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 27, 2006 4:57 PM

Anyone who buys a townhouse in Brooklyn and holds onto it for awhile is either a millionaire or a future millionaire.

Posted by: veggieburger at January 27, 2006 5:04 PM

I'd much rather have a 1,300 square foot coop in center slope or the upper west side than this 3,000 square foot house, thanks very much. Space is nothing compared to safety and peace of mind--and good take-out.

As for being millionaires, anyone with a one bedroom in Manhattan is already a millionaire, so get over it.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 5:18 PM

I find all that wood in those million dollar brownstone interiors so oppressive.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 5:39 PM

I sort of like the Lefferts house though, to be honest, I'd be reluctant to live in that neighborhood. This get rough very quickly when you reach that side of the Park.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 5:47 PM

News flash! Park Slope restaurants deliver to Lefferts Manor. All the talk about lefferts not being safe is hogwash. I have felt much more at risk walking the streets in Park Slope at night (or 7th Ave. when John Jay lets out for the day) than I have ever felt in Lefferts.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 5:47 PM

Since Bed-Stuy was so rudely ignored (kidding!!) according to the Times there is an open house on Sunday for this place:

http://tinyurl.com/blfrh

The outside is pretty amazing looking - annoying there are no interior shots.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 5:53 PM

Hogwash? That is absurd. You may feel safe in Lefferts but facts are facts. There is more crime per capita than in the slope or upper west side. And I feel nervous every time I'm there--which almost never happens to me in other areas.

And having to call to have food delivered is not the same as picking it up on the way home.

Some make the area and some may like this house, but I'd gladly give up some space and details to live elsewhere.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 5:55 PM

What restaurants deliver to Lefferts? Hunan Wok?

Posted by: Natasha at January 27, 2006 5:56 PM

I don't know what you're smoking, but Lefferts can be very violent and very dangerous. If anyone doubts this, they should just go to Lefferts (preferably in the daytime) and walk about. If you have an iota of street smarts, it won't take too long to figure out that there's a lot going on there....mostly in the shadows.

Posted by: Fishomatic at January 27, 2006 6:00 PM

Fishomatic, you must be high! You have clearly never walked the streets of Lefferts. They say that people who see in the shadows are psychotic.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 6:09 PM

Huna Wok delivers to Lefferts? BONUS! I happen to be quite happy and feel safe here. Beautiful homes, lots of families. If it really were a violent neighborhood why would so many families with kids move (and stay) in the neighborhood?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 6:15 PM

I swear every time the word "Lefferts" appears on this blog we get the same you'll-get-shot / no-it's-paradise loop.

Violence or lack thereof aside, take out the finished basement--because basements can be finished much more cheaply than another floor can be renovated--and the house is priced at about $500/sq ft.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 27, 2006 6:30 PM

Despite his/her unfortunate name, Fishomatic is correct. Lefferts is quite a dangerous area. I wouldn't live there.

Posted by: Blugger at January 27, 2006 6:58 PM

Hey Linus:

This time around, I'm totally with you. The typical Lefferts loop is getting sooo old. Folk are worried about "neighborhood violence?" Shucks, with some of the exchanges that go on here they need look no further than on Brownstoner.com :)

So, thanks, Linus, for a solid stab (no pun intended) at moving this house analysis to less contentious territory.

Posted by: GardensGal at January 27, 2006 7:01 PM

I've also heard rumors about cannibalism in Lefferts. It's bad enough worrying about getting shot, but to have to worry about being eaten? Sorry....no way!

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 7:08 PM

Canabalism or not (or crime or not), this Lefferts house would be a viable option if the price were reasonalbe. At about $875,000 it would stack up well against the other options at that price. But at 1.2 plus it is truly a stupid way to spend your money. For that price you can a nice place in a MUCH better area.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 8:39 PM

Dangerous? Let's just say it like it is, some people thought Park Slope was dangerous 10 years ago which was when I first moved to Brooklyn. I looked at people and said what are you talking about?

Now PS has become this completely homogenous neighborhood of predominantly wealthy folk.

I look at Lefferts much like PS 10 years ago, a little rough around the edges, some people might think it is dangerous being around a diverse group of people, but most find it just fine.

Back to the point at hand, I too find it insane that a house in Lefferts is selling for over a million. But you can find a 2 family in mint condition for $699,000, in PS that will buy you a 2 BR off 5th Ave.

I'll take the house and the upside any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Posted by: Livin 11225 at January 27, 2006 10:38 PM

I lived in PS 10 years ago and it was perfectly safe. It felt much safer than Lefferts Manor does today. 10 years ago PS was great--great stores, good restaurants, nice bars, a diverse vibrant group of people. Leferts doesn't have any of that. The houses and people in LM may be nice, but there is no comparison in terms of amenities or safety to PS in '96.

If this house were $699,000, it would be a decent deal. And for the record, Corcoran has a nice 2 bedroom on 8th and President for $699,00. And on Brown Harris right now there is a nice 2 bedroom on Lincoln Place between 6th and 7th for just $599,000, so let's not exagerate.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 27, 2006 11:48 PM

Lefferts has its first cafe opening in Feb. on Lincoln Road. The second cafe is slated to open on Nostrand Ave. I looked at Park Slope 10 years ago, and turned it down. 5 years ago, it felt right, so we moved in. This year we made the switch to Lefferts. My only problem with the nabe, so far, is that it is too quiet. A co-op (an all the headaches that go along with it) does not compare with living in your own house (even if some folk insist on making Lefferts Manor sound like the wild west).

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 9:11 AM

Exageratting about prices of coops in PS? I'm sorry but your post proved my point.

Sure you can find a 2 BR coop for $599k, it is definitely a shoebox, has only one bath and is probaby a 4th Fl walk up. There was one on 3rd St. b/w 6th and 7th for $649 a couple of weeks ago, it was 900 sf maybe. I don't think there is much room for argument.

As for the house, here it is on craigslist:

http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/rfs/129132082.html

Listen I don't think Lefferts is for everybody, just like I don't think PS was for everybody 10 years. I think if you look at the crime stats from 10 years ago in PS and today in Lefferts you'd be surprise at how similar they were. Crime has fallen tremendously throughout the city. And if you think there is no crime in Park Slope, just read the blotter in one of the local papers. Plenty of people getting mugged, robbed and burgulared.

I do agree that PS had better commercial mix 10 years ago, no doubt about it. But is a huge neighborhood, 5th Ave. was no mans land and 4th Ave., only went there if you had to. But that is changing in Lefferts like the other poster mentioned.

Would love to know where the Nostrand Ave. cafe is opening up, please email me offline.

Posted by: Livin 11225 at January 28, 2006 9:40 AM

I lived in PS 10 years ago, and while it had its drawbacks it was in nowhere near the poor condition that Lefferts is in today. It\'s just not a good comparison--not when it comes to violent crime, anyway.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 11:09 AM

Damn. Just when I thought I would be able to sit this one out, I find myself drawn back in!

I wish all you PLG haters with your baseless whining about violent crime in my nabe would get a grip. If you are going to make these kinds of inflammatory claims, at least provide us with truthful detail about what violent crime YOU have actually experienced in PLG. You probably won't be able to do that because, truth is, you've never actually seen or experienced any crime in Prospect Lefferts Garden/Manor.

Who among the crime dramatists on this thread have supported any of their claims with fact? None! Indeed, the strongest allegation I've seen about "crime" in PLG so far on this blog was a recent post recently submitted by a friend of a resident (not the resident themselves, mind you) who complained about being verbally harassed by Black youths on a street corner. Give me a break! That kind of behavior may be upsetting and intimidating but IT IS NOT A CRIME.

As someone who has lived here for 2 decades, safely raised a family here and now safely walk the streets here any time of night or day that I please, I can tell you that I have never witnessed a violent crime in PLG. What I have seen are groups of young Black people who hang out on certain corners and major intersections of Flatbush and Nostrand. (I know for some of you the mere presence of young Black men in groups is enough for you to immediately fear for your lives. But sorry, group presence is not a crime.)

Yes, I'm loathe to admit that, at times, I have my own suspicions that some of these groups of young men are likely involved in the drug trade. But again -- that is merely my suspicion. These young men have certainly never approached me to buy drugs from them and I have NEVER actually witnessed a drug deal go down in PLG. Nor have I have ever witnessed a mugging, shoot-out, drive-by, arson, rape, or any kind of violent crime that some of you folk are imagining to be the order of the day around here.

Does crime exist in PLG? Of course it does! I know this because there's a precinct here and they issue reports about the crime rate all the time. I also know it because PLG has a neighborhood watch group that keeps tabs on reports of criminal incidents and arrests. However, as other, more level-headed folks on this blog have pointed out, crime exists in EVERY neighborhood. And, the bottom line of it is that the rate of crime in PLG --especially violent crime -- does not place this area anywhere close to making the short list of most "unsafe" neighborhoods in Brooklyn.

If you don't want to live in PLG, no problem. Don't buy here. But please stop suggesting that people who make the choice to live here are "stupid" for having done so. At least please have the integrity to stop using exaggerated arguments about crime in PLG as code and subtext to cover other prejudices you have that you would rather not openly discuss.

Get a grip.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 12:43 PM

Sorry. The previous post at 12:43 p.m. is mine.

Posted by: GardensGal at January 28, 2006 12:47 PM

I too was desperately trying to not respond, bu now I have to. I live in Lefferts Manor and my house was broken into while I was home with my 4 year old. I came face to face with the intruder. It was the single most horrifying experrienc eof my life.

I hate to share that on this blog since I want prices to increase. I am desperate to leave the area, but since prices have not increased here nearly as much as they have everywhere else, there is nohwere we can afford to go.

The area has its benefis, but please do not insult us all b pretending that crime is not a serious problem.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 12:53 PM

Gardens Gal, if you actually read the posts you would see that people are saying that it is "stupid" to pay 1.2 million to live in lefferts. You probably paid less than 200,000. This discussion isn't about if the area is liveable, it is about if the area is worth the prices being asked. So, please, get a grip yourself.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 1:01 PM

Anon 1:01:

I read the posts about PLG very carefully and I know exactly what I'm reading. On other threads about PLG, purchasers of homes here have been explicity described as "stupid" for having made such a purchase or for thinking about doing so. So, let's not try and split hairs about the insult. It's really rather unnecessary.

And, who determines whether the prices being asked for a particular property are worth it, anyway? You think its the active posters of the Brownstoner.com community? Now there's a stupid thought! No, my friend, that's a market determination. If the asking price is wrong, the house won't sell. Presumably, if the seller wants out bad enough, s/he will then make a price correction. However, if the price is right in some buyer's eyes, well. . . there will be a sale! Get it? My question is why do people like you seem to get your bloomers all in a twist just because some folk choose to live in PLG at the prices that are being asked in today's market? If it's not your money, what do you care?

As for what I paid to live here. . . it's truly none of your business. But, if you must know. . I bought my house here for more than $200k nearly 20 years ago. And I don't think it was a stupid purchase. Indeed, given the way things are going in PLG, I think that buy was a smart one. So there!

BTW, I'm pretty sure who you are as the author of this "anonymous post." (After hanging around these parts long enough, one tends to recognize familiar writing styles,phraseology and themes of the consistent players.) But, hey, your true identity is only a suspicion and you're safe! Still, I wonder. How come you lack the courage to put your blogname up on this one and take some "ownership" of your stupid statements?

Posted by: GardensGal at January 28, 2006 1:32 PM

Anon 12:53,

Sorry to hear of your break-in. Fact is, however, that burglaries occur in every neighborhood of the city every day . . . not just in PLG. I believe that all crime is serious, including crimes that occur in zip code 11225. I also believe -- based on my direct and personal experience of nearly 2 decades of living here -- that much of the discussion about crime in PLG is overstated on these threads. House burglaries notwithstanding, PLG is not the wild, wild west.

Posted by: GardensGal at January 28, 2006 1:56 PM

Gardens gal, First of all, which anonymous poster are you talking to? I'm the one who posted at 1:01, and you can't know me because I have no idea who you are. If you're threatening and insulting the poor poster (and your neighbor) who was victimized in his/her own home, well that is disgusting. No wonder she/he wants to be anonymous.

The purpose of these posts is to debate specific properties and their asking prices. To say that a house is well priced because someone is willing to pay that price is truly the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

It is clear to me that whatever benefits there may be to lefferts manor, they are certainly outweighed by having to live near narrow minded, aggressive, paranoid, and militant people like you.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 2:01 PM

Well, about six months ago my wife was robbed and quite savagely assaulted by two men on Montgomery St while en route to a friend\\\'s house. We\\\'re grateful that she was not killed or raped, but one of the men had a knife, the blunt end of which was used against my defenseless wife. She had several deep lacerations on her head and face, requiring many stiches to close. The psychological wounds will take much longer to heal. She\\\'d never been through anything like this and it would be an understatement to say she was \\\'rattled\\\'. You can say \\\"This sort of thing happens in all NYC neighborhoods\\\" if you like. After the incident I made it a point to walk around in that neighborhood just to get a sense of where my wife was at the time. It is obviously dangerous and, to be honest, I am still angry at my wife for exercising such poor judgment. She shouldn\\\'t have been walking around there, and she should have known better. That said, what happened to her obviously isn\\\'t her fault. We will get beyond it, but I really, really hate the idea of anyone else having to go through something like this. If you\\\'re thinking about buying in or around Lefferts, AT LEAST go there in person and do some serious scouting around before you make any offers. Be aware of the risk you\\\'re taking.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 2:07 PM

Montgomery is Crown Heights, not Lefferts. Now the Crown Heights defenders are going to step in our grill about how safe Crown Heights and how they aren't overpaying.

While I have personally experienced criminal activity in Lefferts, I've personally experienced criminal activity on court street in Cobble Hill. This is just life in the big city folks.

Being the victim of a crime is a terrifying experience and makes your life flash before you. I know I look behind my back more frequently and take special care to be aware of who is around me at all times.

I think many of the posters here haven't personally experienced criminal activity, they just perceive it. The problem is that perception is not reality.

If you don't feel safe in Lefferts that is fine, we all have different thresholds for safety. I try not to judge people who feel unsafe in any environment, that is a very personal decision, one that I will not argue with.

However, I second the point, that let's focus on actual experiences and facts, rather than innuendo and speculation.

Posted by: livin 11225 at January 28, 2006 3:01 PM

Montgomery is one block outside of Lefferts. Please. And the kind of crime the poster described really can't be blown off as simply "big city life." I've lived in Brooklyn for 41 years and have never experienced anything like that. Why? Because I don't go into areas like Lefferts (or Crown Heights) after dark.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 3:13 PM

3:13

I'm thankful that you've never experienced criminal activity in your 41 years of living in Brooklyn.

As to your comment about Montgomery, completely different neighborhood, seriously, cross Empire Boulevard, you are not in Lefferts. The part of Mongomery that is close to Lefferts is like 3 blocks off Empire bordering on Ebbets Field House Houses, next to a bunch of trani shops, a spice manufacturer and near the Gaseteria. That area is a mishmash of housing and industrial uses not even visually or geographically connected to Lefferts. I know it is only a few blocks away thank you, but it is a completely different nabe.

We can just agree to disagree.

I cast no aspersions on Crown Heights, but access to Prospect Park is blocked by the BBG, manufacturing and abandoned lots on Franklin Avenue, Ebbets Field House, are just a couple of major distinctions.

I live in Lefferts, I don't avoid Crown Heights, but I would say it is rare that I cross over the Crown Heights for anything other than to hit the Rite Aide on Beford and Montgomery (I think that is the cross street). So I stand by my point, different neighborhood, its not Prospect Lefferts Crown Heights Bedford Stuyvesant. They are completely different neighborhoods, even though some on this board might lump them all together under the dangerouse umbrella.

Posted by: livin 11225 at January 28, 2006 3:38 PM

Windsor Terrace goes from greenwood cemetery/mcdonald ave to prospect park, then from (at most) ft. hamilton pkwy up to prospect park west (eastern border of pk. slope.) for example Farrell's would be on the Windsor Terrace side.

Posted by: BKReguy at January 28, 2006 3:42 PM

Oh for God\'s sake...wake up! Wake up! I appreciate that some of you are worried about your property value, but the guy\'s talking about lacerations okay? Stop splitting hairs about where Montgomery St is. That\'s ridiculous. The guy suggested that people should go to Lefferts and see for themselves. I for one cannot see anything wrong with that advise. And I for one will steer well clear of Lefferts because I don\'t want to end up shot, beaten or killed. Jeez....

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 3:54 PM

This ain't about property values bud, this about getting the facts right. If you have any clue about where Montgomery is, its not even close.

So I guess if I got mugged on the 3rd Ave and Union, that would Park Slope? That would be Gowanus my friend.

From the Flatbush Ave Q train exit at the Prospect Park station, you have to walk about 7 minutes to get to Montgomery and Washington Ave and you haven't passed one house or apartment building in Lefferts.

Posted by: livin 11225 at January 28, 2006 4:32 PM

If you don't want to be shot, beaten, or killed, don't come to Park Slope. It happens here too.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 5:12 PM

You are absolutely right livin 11225. The wife of that man...she probably deserved it!

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 6:45 PM

I have frequented this board for several months, but fear the time has come for us to go our separate ways. Good luck to you all.

Posted by: January 28 at January 28, 2006 6:51 PM

Gee, a house on my block in center park slope was broken into, I'd better steer clear of walking the streets of park slope; I was attacked in fort greene, better stay out of there too. A woman was raped in my building when I lived in soho, that must mean it's a bad neighborhood.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 6:51 PM

Yeah, and you know, I read somewhere that a guy once got shot in Brownsville. Guess we better stay away from there too, huh?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 7:08 PM

I have witnessed crime in PLG -- several drug deals on the corner of Nostrand and Sterling (they use underage kids to deliver the goods so they're safe). Two weeks ago a gang of kids who hang out near Hammond's on Nostrand attacked a Chinese food deliveryman on my street (Lefferst Ave between Nostrand and Rogers).

However, as soon as people realized something was going on, everyone cam out of his/her house, including one neighbor of mine who is a cop. The kids ran off, and people waited with the deliveryman until the police and an ambulance arrived.

No, this neighborhood isn't perfect, but people here do watch out for each other. I come home at all times on night on the subway (both the Q and the 2); I know people on my block who've lived in the neighborhood for over thirty years, as well as newcomers, and I think things are only getting better. I do think prices may be moving a bit fast, however, but that's because people know that the area will inevitably improve -- I just hope to be able to buy before prices get too high!

And I'd also love to know the details about the cafe on Nostrand!

Posted by: babs at January 28, 2006 7:16 PM

Hell, if you want to buy, buy in a decent neighborhood. Lefferts is too dangerous.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 7:20 PM

Babs, thanks for that.

LOL.

Posted by: livin 11225 at January 28, 2006 7:34 PM

Right on. Thank you Anonymous at January 28, 2006 07:08 PM

Posted by: Nibbler at January 28, 2006 9:10 PM

Anyone have any actual crime stats? All the posts about how deadly dangerous PLG sound like unsubstantiated hyperbole. And all the posts that respond "there's crime in every neighborhood" are equally unconvincing. (Sure there is -- that doesn't mean there's an equal amount of crime in every neighborhood.)

As long as we're going to have this fight every three days, someone might as well throw out some actual facts. Otherwise you're all just blowing hot air.

GardensGal, I take exception to only one thing in your earlier post -- that people shouldn't care whether houses in HOTD are overpriced as long as "it's not your money." One great thing about this blog is the feedback it provides to potential buyers.

I agree there's no point calling people "stupid" for buying, but it's worth noting that you could buy a house in the south slope for the same price/sq ft. That's more relevant than arguing how much crime there was in Park Slope 10 years ago -- unless someone is flying off in their time machine to buy a Slope brownstone in 1996.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 28, 2006 9:13 PM

The only crime stat I know of is the one that the NY Times includes with house listings in the real estate section. According to that stat. the crime level in Lefferts Manor is lower than Park Slope. I'll check the actual numbers and post them

Posted by: dt at January 28, 2006 10:05 PM

O.K., here are your stats. According to the NY Times crime index, Park Slope is given 127, and Lefferts gets an 85. The higher the number, the more crime. Brooklyn as a whole gets 155.

Posted by: dt at January 28, 2006 10:17 PM

It is disturbing that a neighborhood that is not much different than many other nabes that are often discussed here gets such a strong negative reaction. Having lived in the Upper West Side of Manhattan and in Lefferts Manor I know that I saw and experienced more crime in the UWS. Predators are common in wealthy areas - that's where the money is.

As for the market prices of PLG, there are a good sample available now and these will tell the tale. I believe that those in the market for a fine townhouse/brownstone would be amiss if they accepted the scare mongering so common on this site and never looked for themselves.

I point to Sunset Park (nice 'living in' piece in todays Times) as an example of a nabe that had a bad rep (deservedly so?) some years back, but is now a good place to live and a good place to seek a house under a mill. This nabe has proved itself beyond its rep.

Check it out for yourself, do the research, talk to people who live there, this site has some clearly biased voices.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 10:57 PM

I have no stake in this whatsoever. However, the figures presented here:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pct/cspdf.html

seem at odds with what you are saying. This would not make me want to live in Lefferts.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 11:52 PM

Why can we not we agree to this much: Go and see for yourself. Several people have suggested going to Lefferts to check it out first hand. However, for some reason, this suggestion just seems to get dismissed out of hand. Let us agree that people should visit Lefferts personally. That way we can end this ridiculous and embarrassing discussion. I pity Mr. Brownstoner for having to run a board that dives so deeply into the shit.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 28, 2006 11:56 PM

Yes, I agree. Go to Lefferts and check it out. But be sure to go on a warm spring/summer night when everyone is hanging out and playing music. It'll be safer with the crowds--and will give you a good sense of the area. There is a reason houses in Lefferts only go on the market in the Winter--its cold and the "undesireables" stay indoors.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 12:18 AM

Lefferts---I don't know the crime stats but I do know that the retail is the pits and everyone seems to walk straight of their house and into their car. With the exception of the Dining Room, that Midwood house looks like it's been stripped to the bone. As far as that ceiling medallion, I doubt it is original and even if is, new ceiling medallions can be had for anywhere from $100-$500 depending on size. Hardly a detail worth noting.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 12:35 AM

Move to Bay Ridge. It takes me 45 minutes door-to-door to Union Square and you could still get beautiful limestone and brownstone homes (built between 1899 and 1910) for well under a million. All that and more stores and restaurants than you know what to do with. And for those who care about these things as indicators: 2 Starbucks, 1 New York Sports Club & Fresh Direct delivers :-)

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 12:43 AM

Uh...does anyone have any thoughts on the actual houses that Brownstoner posed?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 8:30 AM

My brother is a police detective and I just had breakfast with him and his wife. He said you should not rely too heavily on statistics measuring reported crime. More crime goes unreported in tougher neighborhoods, and so they can appear much safer than they actually are if you only look at stats. When I asked him about Lefferts, he suggested that we think in terms of the amount of caution one should exercise when in particular neighborhoods. Suppose we think of it on a scale of 1 to 10. If relatively safe Park Slope is a 1 on this scale and Brownsville is a 10, my brother suggested that Lefferts would be a 4 or a 5. So, not too surprisingly, the truth appears to fall somewhere in between the two extreme points of view dominating this board. Assuming of course that my brother knows what he\'s talking about...and he does.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 9:00 AM

I hope Brownstoner never mentions another property in the Lefferts area. This thread is absurd. It is amazing to me that the numbskulls who post here have the resources to buy brownstones. Unbelievable.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 9:30 AM

The comments certainly do go off the deep end (on both sides), but saying that Brownstoner should avoid mentioning Lefferts is absurd. We all need to learn to express ourselves without being so extreme and insulting.

The truth does lie somewhere between the extremes, and it is certainly helpful to anyone thinking of buying in lefferts to hear the opinions of both sides.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 12:44 PM

Go Bay Ridge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 1:39 PM

I guess it\'s now established to everyone\'s satisfaction that Lefferts is a crummy, though not horrible, place to live. With that out of the way, can we now proceed to discuss brownstones and other homes again?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 2:27 PM

Lefferts is okay. It is not as nice as Ditmas Park or Bay Ridge, but it is decent if you are young and do not have a family to raise.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 2:29 PM

Just cause a dude has money doesn't mean he's not a racist.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 2:50 PM

Gee, you mean he is a racist because he does not want his children to be shot and killed in Prospect Lefferts? That pretty much makes everyone a racist.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 5:05 PM

I don't believe my kids would be shot or killed in PLG. Nor would I want to live there. It isn't about race--the middle class black population is a major plus and one of the only reasons I might consider living there. It is the poor population surrounding the Manor that is the problem. That's right--I'm a classist snob.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 5:19 PM

So, even though the crime stats don't support what people are saying about Lefferts being a dangerous nabe, some of you continue to make statements about how dangerous the area is. If you don't like the statistic, ignore it or make an absurd statement about how the statistic isn't true anyway. What's up with that?

Posted by: dt at January 29, 2006 6:14 PM

Which set of statistics are you talking about? There were a couple of different ones presented, and they painted significantly different pictures.

The problem is, some of us actually have eyes in our heads and have visited Lefferts. It is absolutely, positively not heaven on earth. Of course, it is definitely not hell on earth either, but for some reason the posters on this board refuse to entertain any halfway moderate position.

Why is that, I wonder?

This thread is so lame....I hope no one who knows me knows I\'m here.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 6:28 PM

A previous poster staked out an intermediary position: Lefferts is crummy, but not horrible. Can we not agree to embrace this proposition? Then we can all live in peace again, and talk about things that matter.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 6:33 PM

I don't get the point of all these posts. Are they meant to be a joke? Or is there a secret sport of trashing different neighborhoods? People should live where they are comfortable, but does being comfortable mean you have to attack other people's neighborhoods? It all seems so extreme. But I guess intriguing is a let's all watch a train wreck kind of way...

Posted by: Anonymous at January 29, 2006 7:03 PM

Oh. My. God. You are all in serious need of a constructive hobby. I'm moving to Canada!!

Posted by: BREUKELEN at January 29, 2006 9:20 PM

Gardengal is borderline retarded.

Sorry, but somebody had to point it out.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 12:28 PM

No Anonymous at January 30, 2006 12:28

That would be yo mama.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 30, 2006 1:19 PM

It's 2001, and I'm walking to my apartment on 7th and 8th in Park Slope. I get jumped, robbed and the s**t beat out of me...speed it up to 2006 in the land of wanna-be wine experts, over mortgaged whiny yuppies and baby strollers. "Now" its safe.

Living large and loving PLG. (Oh, and i've already doubled my investment in one year!)

Posted by: 11225Ho at January 30, 2006 1:31 PM

11225Ho,

What is it with people and baby strollers, like they're the sign of the freaking apocalypse? PLG is a wonderful neighborhood for families, so I've heard. Do they not use strollers? Or do they lock the kids up at home until they can walk unassissted?

Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 30, 2006 2:24 PM

We do not block the sidewalk with our strollers and expect everyone else to go around. Also since there are so many things in walking distance, most people in PLG(except PS transplants maybe?) tend to give up their strollers sooner and let their little ones walk.

Posted by: Nativegal at January 31, 2006 12:55 AM

I'm a long-distance runner, and I run several days a week through various neighborhoods (PS, Boerum Hill, Fort Greene, DUMBO, etc.) as well as Prospect Park. Over 15 years as a Brooklyn pedestrian, I have had my way blocked far more often by oblivious pedestrians, *without* strollers, sluggishly walking 2 or 3 abreast, who feel that they don't need to interrupt their meaningful conversations for the .5 seconds it would take to let another person pass. Selfish people without kids just become selfish people with kids, in my experience.

As for giving up strollers sooner, maybe people in PLG do -- I don't know. Maybe Slopers just cosset their kids more, or something. But saying it's because there is so much in walking distance of PLG? Come on. Yes, I know the zoo and the botanic gardens are lovely, but we actually have one or two amenities in walking distance in the slope.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 31, 2006 8:51 AM

I do not know what people in PLG do who have children. However, their first move should be to call a realtor and get the hell out of there. PLG has its virtues, but it is way too dangerous to raise kids. It is not as though you can keep your kids with you every second of every day. Sooner or later they will have to walk around on their own, and I cannot imagine a worse place for them to do this than PLG. It is amazing to me that this is even a subject of debate here. Have any of you spent any time in PLG?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 31, 2006 9:13 AM

It isn't up for debate. I've made my choice and am happy to raise my child in PLG. Why does that bother you so much?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 31, 2006 10:06 AM

Wow linusvanpelt, You seem a tad sensitive. Was that your double-wide stroller blocking the entrance to the food co-op?

Posted by: Anonymous at January 31, 2006 11:09 AM

OK, it is becoming clear to me now, the poster who loves to rag on Lefferts is actually someone who is bidding on a house and wants to scare everyone else away. If not that, then this person must have ancestors who were rivals of the Lefferts family.

Posted by: dt at January 31, 2006 2:09 PM

It looks to me like there are several people expressing negative opinions of PLG. If they believe PLG is dangerous, why should they not be allowed to say so? You are just worried about your property values, I suspect.

Posted by: mk at January 31, 2006 2:46 PM

I don't believe that PLG, where I live, is any more dangerous than Clinton Hill was 5 years ago (or even still is today in parts -- a recent thread discussed the bodega where the drug dealers hang out, the deals people have seen going down, etc., which actually sounds a bit scarier than what I've seen around here).

But this is true of just about any neighborhood anywhere in NYC -- and there are posters on this site in previous threads who've maintained that Fort Greene is unsafe due to the presence of the Walt Whitman Houses, etc., etc. I lived in Fort Greene over ten years ago and I never felt unsafe there then -- of course no-one ever went past Dekalb Ave and even that was dicey -- but maybe it's a matter of perception, and I still think that the (mostly) white people who post here feel safer around their own kind.

And I don't know why, but we certainly don't have as many obnoxiously sidewalk-hogging strollers or three-abreast walkers as you see in Park Slope. These are probably the same people BTW -- when they're out with their adult friends they take up the whole sidewalk, too -- I see them all the time in Manhattan, too.

But maybe the idea that someone's trying to buy something and wants to hold (or bring) prices down isn't too far off the mark. Maybe it's working - Corcoran just lowered the house for sale on my block to $615K. If it gets down to $500K I may have a shot! I just couldn't lie about my neighborhood and my neighbors in the interest of lowering it there, however.

Posted by: babs at January 31, 2006 8:35 PM

I seriously doubt that anyone on this group gives a tinkus cuss what you believe about PLG. The fact is, Lefferts is way worse than Clinton Hill ever dreamt of being. You can deny this until you\'re blue in the face, but your denials won\'t change the facts. I suspect you\'re doing this to help your own property values. I also have the sneaking suspicion that you\'re posting under a number of different names. Do you think we\'re so easily fooled? Give me a break.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 31, 2006 9:19 PM

babs,

I agree the bashing has become ridiculous. You make a reasonable statement when you say that "I don't believe that PLG, where I live, is any more dangerous than Clinton Hill was 5 years ago."

Problem is -- PLG is being priced *higher* than Clinton Hill today. At least this HOTD is, on a square-footage basis.

I dunno why all the animosity to PLG -- racism, conspiracy, whatever. But I think there is a totally legitimate case to make that PLG (imho) is pricing in several years of gentrification yet to come. I know that's the case in a lot of Brooklyn, but from the listings I've seen here, it seems more aggressive on the PLG houses. I dunno why that either.

Maybe I'm wrong and the market will prove me wrong, but that's the advice I'd give to a friend who was house-hunting. (But I'd also tell them to check it out for themselves.)

Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 31, 2006 11:01 PM

Linusvanpelt, I find it interesting that you agree that the Prospect-Lefferts Gardens “bashing has become ridiculous”, without acknowledging your own participation in it. Please see your oh so condescending response to my previous post for an example. Your insinuation that all PLG has to offer with in walking distance is “the zoo and the botanic gardens” attempts to ignore Prospect Park itself as well as the multitudes of things available on the Prospect-Lefferts Gardens’ side of Prospect Park. Besides the zoo there are

1. The carrousel
2. Wollman Ice Skating Rink
3. The Audubon Center
4. Lefferts Homestead Museum
5. The Parade Grounds, offers tennis courts, baseball & soccer fields, etc.

Prospect-Lefferts Gardens is walking distance to 4 museums. Including the above mentioned Lefferts Homestead Museum, there is also

1. The Brooklyn Museum of Art
2. The Brooklyn children’s Museum
3. The Jewish Children’s Museum

I make a loop of 5 different area playgrounds and I can’t wait until my 2yo is old enough to go roller skating at the Empire Roller Rink, just as I did as a child.

Prospect-Lefferts Garden has tons more to offer, but there’s no need to give away any more of the “secrets” of the garden, to those determined not to appreciate them anyway…

Posted by: Nativegal at February 1, 2006 1:08 AM

Posted by: linusvanpelt at January 31, 2006 11:01 PM

Here is something we agree on. I do think the pricing of some houses in Prospect-Lefferts Garden is very aggressive. I also think it has a lot to do with racism, but not in the way you might think. My husband & I looked for over 2yrs for our house in PLG. Part of the difficulty was that listings were very hard to find. The house we wound up buying was listed $114k above what we actually paid for it, even though it was only on the market 2wks. We thought we were over paying by aprox 20k, but we had the additional money and we really wanted to live in PLG. It turns out we over-paid by aprox $60k

In watching the subsequent asking vs selling prices in the neighborhood as well as the marketing, I get a distinct impression that the houses are priced so as to discourage people currently living in the neighborhood from even looking.

A case in point. The recent FSBO, HOD on Maple Street. The owner was publicly chastised for having a “For Sale” sign in the window. In a statement worded as a question the house seller was made aware that Lefferts Manor discourages for sale signs on the property being sold. Now why would that be?

Posted by: Nativegal at February 1, 2006 1:33 AM

I have this nagging suspicion:

Nativegal=linusvanpelt=babs

Posted by: Anonymous at February 1, 2006 8:30 AM

Nativegal=linusvanpelt=babs=Anonymous

Posted by: Anonymous at February 1, 2006 8:48 AM

nativegal,

You think I was condescending? I was aiming for sarcastic. Your post said that PLG residents, unlike PS residents, use strollers less often because "there are so many things in walking distance." As if the exact same thing were not true of Park Slope. Guess what? We're next to the same park! And we have extensive commercial strips, restaurants, theaters -- it's not exactly a state secret.

I'm not saying there's nothing to walk to around PLG -- you're close to stuff we're not close to and vice versa -- but I am saying it is flat-out laughable to suggest there is nothing to walk to around PS. So I didn't get the logic of your post at all.

By "bashing," I was thinking of overblown crap like "you'll get shot if you move there" or "if you have kids, you should get the hell out." I don't mean that no one should criticize your neighborhood. Or mine, either.

babs,

That's really strange -- why would the seller care about anything but getting the best price? -- but as I recall, you're a real estate agent, so if you find it plausible, I gotta defer to you. Very sad if true.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at February 1, 2006 9:39 AM

Sorry, I'm an idiot -- I thought your 2nd post was a babs response. Clearly, I have now officially spent too much time on this thread. Actually, that was probably true 50 posts ago.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at February 1, 2006 9:45 AM

On Feb 1 "Nativegal" wrote:"Lefferts Manor discourages for sale signs on the property being sold. Now why would that be?"

Its true that the Lefferts Manor Association has had a long tradition of discouraging "for sale"signs. I'm not sure if this goes back to the restrictions written into the deed covenants when the area was first sub-divided in 1893 (the Lefferts Manor Assoc. was founded in 1919 to enforce these covenants) or if it dates back to efforts to fight the "blockbusting" practiced by unscrupulous RE brokers in the early'60s(more likely, I think). I've been on the Lefferts Manor board for over 20 years and remember the matter of signs coming up for discussion frequently in the '80s. I also wrote a number of letters to brokers who posted signs when I was LMA president in the early '90s. However IIRC the organization has not taken action concerning "for sale" signs for a number of years. Nevertheless, many long term residents (even longer term than me!) are very protective about neighborhood traditions, so someone posting a "for sale" sign might very well hear disaproving remarks from neighbors--FWIW I think this adds to the small town charm of Lefferts Manor.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 6, 2006 12:56 AM

Wow

Do you people wonder why so much of the world hates real estate agents?

This blog should be used a recruiting device for a Let's Kill All the Real Estate People movement.

I could build an army.

How about if some of you arsenic-tongued devils get a clue and try to at least pretend to be positive about the ENTIRE borough you live in (though probably should not)

And if you can't say anything nice, maybe you could stifle yourself (Edith) and not demonstrate quite so convincingly that you've turned into a Squid and the Whale obnoxious scared little hipper than thou Park Slope-esque Stepford-pod.

Seriously; just revolting.

I would hope that anyone who has posted one of these moronic "ooooh, we'll get shot in that scary black PLG neighborhood" stream of anti-consciousness would:

a) never ever ever come to PLG, because the mean black teenagers will surely get you. In fact, I'm calling them now and telling them to look for you.

and

b) move soon to New Jersey or Idaho or wherever you really belong

and

c) try to do a lot of non-profit work with the underprivileged to make up for the scummy way you seem to conduct your business.

There's my two cents.

Just trying to keep the conversation lively.

Buzzsaw

Posted by: Buzzsaw at February 6, 2006 2:14 PM

This thread makes me, currently in the process of selling in an area with even more black people than Prospect-Lefferts, want to stay where I am rather than come back and live in the Slope with you people.

Posted by: Dave at February 9, 2006 11:44 AM

Ok, so I'm joining this conversation on the late side but what I'm gonna say is pretty valid so hear me out. I've known PLG my whole life. My Godmother bought a limestone here in the 80's and has lived here ever since. That's over 25 years that she's lived here. She has never once been mugged, shot or burgalarized in any way. She is a little Japanese lady. This neighborhood is not a rich one for sure,but that does not mean that is dangerous. Adversely I know plenty of people who have gotten mugged in supposedly safe and gentrified areas (E. Williamsburg, LES, Park Slope) the bottom line is, PLG is a neighborhood of homeowners and families. The more single family homes you have (a great number of the homes here are 1 and 2 family) the more pride of ownership there will be. People are too busy raising their kids here to get caught up in crime.

Posted by: guest at December 1, 2007 3:03 PM

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